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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Cars / February 2005Positive ground or Negative ground
92 Eagle Vision (Intrepid basically). Issues with the tail lights and a reverse warning light installation. Someone suggested that it might be a negative ground system which will effect the end result of what I was trying to achieve. Anyone have an answer on this one? Don Manning >92 Eagle Vision (Intrepid basically). Issues with the tail lights and a >reverse warning light installation. Someone suggested that it might be a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Don Manning Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. Actually, Chrysler likes to do some electrical things the other way, with ground-switched tail lights. Even Ford has done ground-switched tail lights, and the Ford air suspension solenoid valves are all ground-switched. Ground-switching IS the superior way to handle DC switching (less wear & tear on switches), but costs a little more to implement, so the majority of automakers avoid it. > >92 Eagle Vision (Intrepid basically). Issues with the tail lights and a > >reverse warning light installation. Someone suggested that it might be a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the > mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. > Actually, Chrysler likes to do some electrical things the other way, > with ground-switched tail lights. Even Ford has done ground-switched > tail lights, and the Ford air suspension solenoid valves are all > ground-switched. Ground-switching IS the superior way to handle DC > switching (less wear & tear on switches), but costs a little more to > implement, so the majority of automakers avoid it. Yes! That is what I meant. I tried to install a reverse flasher on this car and only the left side brake light flashes. Both reverse lights work as they should though. I hooked everything up both ways possible and had no luck. I then got very d.e.l.i.b.e.r.a.t.e. with the wiring and still had the same result. I called the company and spoke with an engineer and they suggested that maybe this model of car uses a ground-switching system, which would require me to install a relay -inline- to alter this. Anyone have suggestions? Don Manning > > >92 Eagle Vision (Intrepid basically). Issues with the tail lights and a > > >reverse warning light installation. Someone suggested that it might be a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the > > mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. Without specific wiring diagrams, you must not make the connections as planned. For example, one police car had a similar circuit installed. Because the installer first did not obtain a detailed wiring diagram - first identify everything in the circuit - then a police car safety feature was disabled by the taillight flasher circuit. A cop started the car which in turn jumped back and ran over another human. All those posts from Sharon should be avoided like the plague. He has absolutely no idea about electricity. Reasons for negative ground and reasons why some circuits are ground side switched have nothing to do with anything he has posted. Furthermore everything he posts is totally irrelevant to your problem. First describe the details of that particular model's existing circuit including everything connected to that circuit - especially safety devices. Only then can we move on to describe a solution. If installing this system AND if you did not even know which type of switching is used (ground side or hot side), then you have no business wiring that car. You should have been able to answer that engineer's question about ground side switching immediately. If you could not, then you probably did not see that engineer's pained expression. Especially since some safety equipment can be compromised by incorrect splices. Again, we have a cop who almost killed another only because the installer did not first learn the entire wiring circuit before installing a flasher unit. Wiring diagrams are easily obtained. You have no reason to install that flasher without first taking the necessary precautions. And again, ignore all those nonsense posts from Sharon Cooke. Any claim by him of a degree must be bogus. Especially this outright and embarrassing nonsense: > when a device is powered via ground switching, the device > acts a capacitor to minimize surge & 'bounce'. Just too many reasons why his posts are total bull. Kirchoff's circuit laws are just one of so many. >> Actually, Chrysler likes to do some electrical things the other way, >> with ground-switched tail lights. Even Ford has done ground-switched [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Anyone have suggestions? > Without specific wiring diagrams, you must not make the > connections as planned. For example, one police car had a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > was disabled by the taillight flasher circuit. A cop started > the car which in turn jumped back and ran over another human. There are very specific tests that an installer performs on EVERY vehicle when he installs a lighting system of any kind. I guess that ought to read "should" perform. When I do installs, I test at each stage, so that I know if any one system will cause a disruption in the normal operating procedures of the vehicle. I have a reuptation for my installs being perfect and extrmely clean. I have done over 70 vehicles on my own and an unkown amount of police cars and SUV's while working for a large company. Thought I would point that out. Don Manning > All those posts from Sharon should be avoided like the > plague. He has absolutely no idea about electricity. Reasons [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > > > Anyone have suggestions? That police car example demonstrates safety problems created by not first obtaining wiring diagram. The system verified just fine - experimentally. Problem was created when a specific condition existed. For example, flasher had to be both on and at a specific state WHEN the vehicle was started. The concept is well demonstrated by W E Demings principles. One cannot test to create quality. It goes right back to principles taught in Jr High School science. One must demonstrate it works as intended (experimentally) AND be able to say theoretically why it should work. Without both conditions, then a minimally sufficient installation was not achieved. A wiring diagram would also answer the original question of why it does not work at all. Just another reason why the wiring diagram is so important. To theoretically say a system should work without compromising safety, the wiring diagram for that particular model is necessary. Again, the police car that ran over a human worked just fine when tested, but violated what could have been known IF a wiring diagram was first obtained. Principles that good installers do subconsciously - often without realizing they do it. They know it works 1) by experimenting AND 2) because they know why it should work. Both factors necessary for customizing. BTW, be careful if the existing system uses semiconductors rather than mechanical switches to power and extinguish lights. This adds additional complexity to the circuit. Photocopy that circuit diagram. Often the newer and more complex systems have things first not seen and later discovered after testing. >> Without specific wiring diagrams, you must not make the >> connections as planned. For example, one police car had a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Don Manning >Actually, Chrysler likes to do some electrical things the other way, >with ground-switched tail lights. Even Ford has done ground-switched >tail lights, and the Ford air suspension solenoid valves are all >ground-switched. Ground-switching IS the superior way to handle DC >switching (less wear & tear on switches), but costs a little more to >implement, so the majority of automakers avoid it. I'd like you to explain THAT in a scientific manner. The only reason some things are ground switched is to simplify electronic control. Interior lamps are often ground switched, because there are at leat 3 switches controlling the lamps, and grounding switches on the doors are infinitely simpler than power switches in the door jams. Ground switching rewuires a lot more wiring in most other cases, as power must be supplied (by wire) from the battery, and the ground must be returned(by wire) to the switch. With the new can-bus systems, the actual switch can be at the back of the car, connected only to the "power" wire which also carries the networked control signal. In this case, ground switching may be used - and may be the simplest. >> >92 Eagle Vision (Intrepid basically). Issues with the tail lights and a >> >reverse warning light installation. Someone suggested that it might be a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. Explain WHAT in a scientific manner? It's a given that if you use a switch to close a ground, it's easier on the switch and it (the switch) will last until it breaks simply from mechanical wear & tear. Going the other way, with a fixed ground and using an electrical path thru the switch to power the device will burn out the contacts on switches "before their time". I have replaced a number of MF & headlight switches (FoMoCo mostly) as proof of that. I have NEVER replaced one on a Toyota. Ground switching (of headlights, anyway) has been around for at least 30 years - look at any Toyota or Datsun (Nissan, now) - and has zero to do with CANBUS, explained as; http://www.cetrek.co.uk/CanbusSet.html > >Actually, Chrysler likes to do some electrical things the other way, > >with ground-switched tail lights. Even Ford has done ground-switched [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the > >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. >Explain WHAT in a scientific manner? It's a given that if you use a >switch to close a ground, it's easier on the switch and it (the switch) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"before their time". I have replaced a number of MF & headlight switches >(FoMoCo mostly) as proof of that. I have NEVER replaced one on a Toyota. Obviously someone has never been in an electronics/electrical class You know what circuits are, i take it? I work a lot with high-power DC stuff (110V+, at sometimes 1200A) and it doesn't matter where on the circuit a switch is, as, you see, a circuit is a loop, and electron flow goes around ALL of the circuit equally. Why, in your opinion are ground switches better? is it because the electrons 'aren't as tired' as they've only just left the battery, and so can make a cleaner spark at near contact, one which won't deteriorate the contact, unlike if they were positive switched, where they'd be exhausted and jump any old way, destroying contacts? >Ground switching (of headlights, anyway) has been around for at least 30 >years - look at any Toyota or Datsun (Nissan, now) - and has zero to do [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the >> >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have had several courses in electrical/electronics theory. Also, if it counts for "creds", I moonlighted repairing TV sets while I was going to school. :) > >Explain WHAT in a scientific manner? It's a given that if you use a > >switch to close a ground, it's easier on the switch and it (the switch) [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >> >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the > >> >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have >had several courses in electrical/electronics theory. Also, if it counts >for "creds", I moonlighted repairing TV sets while I was going to >school. :) Well then, you should be able to tell us why 'negative side switches' last longer than, so, please, enlighten us. >> >Explain WHAT in a scientific manner? It's a given that if you use a >> >switch to close a ground, it's easier on the switch and it (the switch) [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >> >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the >> >> >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. > >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in > >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well then, you should be able to tell us why 'negative side switches' > last longer than, so, please, enlighten us. Stating it as simply as possible, when a device is powered via ground switching, the device acts a capacitor to minimize surge & 'bounce'. If you don't believe that a grounding switch lasts longer than a switch used to turn on a positive current thru the switch and then to the device, please let me know when & where you'll be changing your nest car battery; I'd like to watch, Hell, I could probably sell tickets if you promise to remove the positive terminal on the old battery first, and also promise to connect the ground teminal on the new battery before you connect the positive terminal. > > >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in > > >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > also promise to connect the ground teminal on the new battery before you > connect the positive terminal. No problem. I do it that way on the Blazer all the time. Pos terminal is easier to get to than Neg. There is a reason to remove the ground first BUT it isn't anything to do with what you claim. It is because ALL the metal around the battery will be at ground potential. So by removing the ground first you eliminate the possibility of a short IF you hit something with the metal wrench. That is the ONLY reason why it is done. NOTHING ELSE. As for ground switching being better WRONG. 10 amps is 10 amps, regardless of which side your breaking, as for the powered item being a capacitive load it would be on either side. Doesn't matter which side you break. Just a fact. >> >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in >> >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >also promise to connect the ground teminal on the new battery before you >connect the positive terminal. You know, i did some looking, and i can find NOTHINg to support your assertation. On the other hand, there is something which disproves it, and its a little something called "KIRCHOFF'S CURRENT LAW" Basically it says the current into a point is equal to the current out. So, the curent into the switch is the same as the current cmming out. the same for the device, so no matter where the switch is, there will always be surge. I've disconnected terminals on batteries in all 3 types of order, positive terminal first, negative first, and both together 9easy to do whe you got a linked pair of anderson powerpoles to pull) Made no difference that i could tell. The reason you disconnect the negative/grond first on a battery is because typically, you use metal tools. if you Disconnect the positive first, its possible that you could actidentally make a short, via the tool, between the negatively connected odywork/engine, and the positively connected tool. This is why, also, for the same reason, on positively grounded cars, you're told to disconnect the +ve terminal first. Anyway, based on what you said above, please enlighten me as to what degree, and from where, so i can be sure to avoid graduates from there when doing the job applications. Not being able to perform a simple nodal analysis would be BAD for any employee of mine. > >> >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in > >> >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > when doing the job applications. Not being able to perform a simple > nodal analysis would be BAD for any employee of mine. Good luck with your belief system. Mine could keep an outgassing battery from exploding, or possibly keep a metal wrench from being welded to the sheet metal. Yours ... BTW, my degree field, and where I obtained it, is none of your business, even if you actually have one (doubtful). "Flaming" people on the 'Net does not count as a business. "When you argue with a fool, the result is two fools arguing." > Good luck with your belief system. Mine could keep an outgassing battery > from exploding, or possibly keep a metal wrench from being welded to the > sheet metal. Yours ... I've been watching this thread with amusement, and must now say that you are indeed wrong (on at least two counts). First, the others are correct when they say that it makes NO difference where you "break" a circuit, as the current is the same in either case. Second, your wrench welding comment above is wrong, because if you touch the wrench to the engine while it is connected to the positive terminal, very bad things happen. This is because the engine is connected to the negative terminal via the negative battery lead. If, however, you first disconnect the negative lead, and then touch your wrench between the positive lead and the engine, there is NO connection back to the negative terminal, and NOTHING will happen. Can you understand that? > BTW, my degree field, and where I obtained it, is none of your business, > even if you actually have one (doubtful). "Flaming" people on the 'Net > does not count as a business. Indeed not. However, a degree in a field other than what we are currently discussing does not count for anything, either. > "When you argue with a fool, the result is two fools arguing." Now that is absolutely correct!  SignatureIf you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space. Linux Registered User #327951 [ lots snipped. make that everything snipped... ] I'm afraid I just remember enough about this to be scary without being useful, but... When I was working with NYC's EMS folk, we were told by the mechanics that the emergency lamps in the rear of the ambulances were ground switched. This sounded pretty wierd but they explained it in a way that made sense at the time. I don't recall what they said about it, but I just confirmed with a colleague of mine from back then that he remembers it also. Signature_____________________________________________________ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key dannyb@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] >[ lots snipped. make that everything snipped... ] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I don't recall what they said about it, but I just confirmed with a >colleague of mine from back then that he remembers it also. VERY simpl;e explanation why things like emergency lights are often ground switched. The power is applied to one side of the lamp, directly, through a fuse or breaker. (sometimes also through an "isolating" or "lockout" switch to prevent them from being turned on when they should not be - like when the vehicle is parked) Then the other side of the lamp is grounded through a locally mounted switch. IF something goes wrong with the switch, and it should happen to short to ground (corrosion due to moisture in an axternally mounted lamp assembly is one common occurence)all that happens is the light comes on. If POWER switched, this would cause a dead short, hopefully blowing the fuse, but also possibly overheating and burning the wire. Interior and cabin lamps are also connected this way, because a remote grounding switch can be easily connected to turn the light on from a "priority" location. >[ lots snipped. make that everything snipped... ] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >This sounded pretty wierd but they explained it in a way that made sense >at the time. in some ambulances, i know they've had all-wire switches, because the main body of the ambulance was not used as a ground-path. portable radios hate faraday cages, that was the threory anyway. There were other considerations, such as the defib blowing part of the electrics on accidental contact etc. >I don't recall what they said about it, but I just confirmed with a >colleague of mine from back then that he remembers it also. >> >> >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in >> >> >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >from exploding, or possibly keep a metal wrench from being welded to the >sheet metal. Yours ... Been there, done that, got the TV, and nationally shown footage of it (batteries shorting, and catching fire - they rarely explode, even fuly sealed batteries swell, then outgass, and te hydrogen ignites. Thank god for me old muckas at firetrace, half the time they put the fire out before i can get close with the co2.) >BTW, my degree field, and where I obtained it, is none of your business, >even if you actually have one (doubtful). "Flaming" people on the 'Net >does not count as a business. Yes, i ahve one, although i got it in europe (where the entire time is spent on the actual subject of the degree). Its a very nice robotics degree, and is roughly equivilent to a US masters degree. >"When you argue with a fool, the result is two fools arguing." Aye, if only we were arguing, as opposed to me stating widely known fact, and you thinking you're in la-la-land. >>Good luck with your belief system. Mine could keep an outgassing battery >>from exploding, or possibly keep a metal wrench from being welded to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Thank god for me old muckas at firetrace, half the time they put the >fire out before i can get close with the co2.) Well, I've seen several batteries explode. One when a student was not listening in class (he NEVER listened - but this time it caught his attention) once when the loose battery connection on the ond 44 Massey descided to arc when starting, and once when a spark from the grinder got close to the motorcycle battery while it was on charge. There were a few more too, with the Massey and the grider being MY contributions. >>>Good luck with your belief system. Mine could keep an outgassing battery >>>from exploding, or possibly keep a metal wrench from being welded to the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >There were a few more too, with the Massey and the grider being MY >contributions. Heh, I'm moving away from lead acid technology though, and even from nicads. using mainly niMH and starting to move to lithium-ion for smaller applications. only problem with the lithium ones is if they puncture, they WILL explode within about 15-20 seconds. >> >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in >> >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >also promise to connect the ground teminal on the new battery before you >connect the positive terminal. Sharon - I taught auto mechanics for a few years. There is NO REASON to remove the NEGATIVE terminal first. The important thing is to remove the GROUNDED TERMINAL FIRST. The reason for this is: If your wrench inadvertently touches "ground" while removing the "grounded" terminal you do not draw a spark, burn the wrench, or blow up the battery because no current flows through the wrench. If you remove the ungrounded terminal first, and inadvertently touch ground, one or more of the aforementioned will happen - often with spectacular results. If the ground is removed first, and THEN while removong the ungrounded terminal, the wrench touches ground, NOTHIN HAPPENS because no circuit is completed. That, my dear, is the long and the short of it. >Not sure about high-powered DC current, but I do know what happens in >the real world for 12VDC. BTW, I do have an engineering degree, and have >had several courses in electrical/electronics theory. Also, if it counts >for "creds", I moonlighted repairing TV sets while I was going to >school. :) Heaven help us all - an engineering degree and several courses in electrical and electronis theory - that explains a lot. >> >Explain WHAT in a scientific manner? It's a given that if you use a >> >switch to close a ground, it's easier on the switch and it (the switch) [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >> >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the >> >> >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. >Explain WHAT in a scientific manner? It's a given that if you use a >switch to close a ground, it's easier on the switch and it (the switch) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >years - look at any Toyota or Datsun (Nissan, now) - and has zero to do >with CANBUS, explained as; http://www.cetrek.co.uk/CanbusSet.html I was service manager for a good sized Toyota dealer for 10 years,and did most of the electrical troubleshooting as well, so I know Toyota wiring. I also know that in a series circuit it matters not a whit where you place the switch. The reason Toyota and Nissan swirches are less likely to fail is twofold. Firstly, they tend to be of a higher quality, and secondly, Toyota and Nissan tend to relay switch a lot more than Ford You show me, using sound electrical theory how ground switching is superior to power switching... >> >Actually, Chrysler likes to do some electrical things the other way, >> >with ground-switched tail lights. Even Ford has done ground-switched [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> Virtually ALL vehicles built in North America since the >> >> mid-1950s have negative-ground electrical systems. WOW! I sure enjoyed reading all of you disprove everything Sharon said, hehe and then I realized i forgot what the topic was. Anyone know how to help poor 2.3Sleeper get his problem fixed? I know this much, in order for anyone here to be able to help him we need more specific questions answered. Like what where you trying to achieve? Have you tested the curcuit to ensure it is complete? I know i don't have a great deal of knowledge in this, Lord knows i don't claim to have a degree nor would I,but it seems to me that the problem here is not whether or not a battery will explode if you disconnect the + or - terminal first. Basic troubleshooting is all that is in order. I do agree wiring diagrams would be of great benefit here, but if you follow the wire from the back of the car test the source to that wire. if the source doesn't work then test it's source.. until you track it down. It may be time consuming and to others may even seem a bit redundant, but you know what, if works, and you learn a little bit more about how your car works, then it was worth every minute. I wish you the best of luck and I honestly that if i didn't help at least someone with more knowledge about your specific issue does help you.. > 92 Eagle Vision (Intrepid basically). Issues with the tail lights and a > reverse warning light installation. Someone suggested that it might be a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Don Manning In this message, 2.3Sleeper Top Posts his response: Okay. The reverse flasher system alternates the reverse lights and the brake lights back and forth at a rate of 90 flashes per minute. In a three wire system, where the brake and turn signal use the same lamp, you cut the wire that feeds power to the left turn signal/brake light. One wire from the flasher connects to the wire returning to the front and another connects to the wire going back to the light. This process repeats itself for the right side as well. On a four wire system, where the brake light and turn signal use separate lamps, you cut the wire that supplies power to the brake lights. You connect two of the wires to the side going back to the front and the other two wires to the side going back to the light.(Only ONE side is cut on this type of system) This is the standard for all reverse flasher systems and I tried three different manufacturers modules on this car and received the same result with all three. With each one I tried the install both ways, and became EXTREMELY deliberate as my frustration grew. I spent more time fretting over the flasher module than I did installing 4 interior LED lights bars on the same car. As for testing the circuit, the way I learned was that if the light works, the circuit is good. IOW, the brake lights work and the reverse lights work, so I know that a broken circuit is not causing the right brake light not to flash while the module is turned on. Now, this car is a 4 wire system. The brake lamps have their own wire. You have negative, minor, and major. Major is for the brake and minor is for the running lights. I did call two different dealers and was not able to receive an educated response from anyone regarding the type of system used in this car. I guess I will have to go the dealer and ask to see the wiring manuals for the car itself. Thank you, Don Manning > WOW! I sure enjoyed reading all of you disprove everything Sharon said, hehe > and then I realized i forgot what the topic was. Anyone know how to help [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > > Don Manning |
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