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Car Forum / Dodge / Dodge Cars / May 2007Can someone explain Dodge Service Dept's to me...
I took my car in for 3 issues... 1) P0404 code (EGR Valve stuck) on the odometer when I turn the key on-off-on-off-on, except when I took it into the dealer to have them check it out, they wouldn't even look at the EGR Valve because the code was no longer in the computer. I told them I saw the code on the odometer display using this method AND by using a scan tool from AutoZone. They told me the AutoZone tool is worthless, just so they can charge $70.00 to connect theirs, but it showed the exact same code as the ignition method. 2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to call it, while maintaining a constant speed. They said they sprayed water on the plug wires and they are arcing to ground. Need to replace the wires AND the plugs they said! I Just had the plugs and wires changed 6 weeks ago! Top of the line stuff too. But instead of saying to replace the wires only, they said the plugs too! Why? My regular mechanic said they are full of BS. 3) My car clunks when I shift into a gear, and when I take off - my regular mechanic says Torque Converter and it's killing the CV Joints. I told them this, they said they could not duplicate the issue so they did nothing! I picked my car up from the dealer and when i put it in gear and took off - SAME CLUNKING sounds! What the heck? They wouldn't even check the Torque Convert and CV joints out - most likely because there was no computer code for them. Why are dealer service dept's like this? Why don't they fix your car when you take it to them? I'm so sick of dealers. I have an extended warranty and my guess is that they want out of it as cheaply as they can, wait till the warranty is over, then fix the car for 2-3x what a regular mechanic will charge you. I'm sick of it - can someone explain to me why this is? Ticked off bad, -TRogers > I took my car in for 3 issues... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > AutoZone tool is worthless, just so they can charge $70.00 to connect > theirs, but it showed the exact same code as the ignition method. And if they would have replaced the EGR valve and if it didnt fix it you would be right back at the dealer complaining because your car wasnt fixed. You DONT replace a part just because there is a code!!!! > 2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to call > it, while maintaining a constant speed. They said they sprayed water on the > plug wires and they are arcing to ground. Need to replace the wires AND the > plugs they said! I Just had the plugs and wires changed 6 weeks ago! Top of > the line stuff too. But instead of saying to replace the wires only, they > said the plugs too! Why? My regular mechanic said they are full of BS. Why the hell dont you take it back to the place that put the plugs and wires on it!!! if you spray water and see them arcing there is a problem!!!!!!!!!!!! Your regular mechanic needs to be replaced!!!! > 3) My car clunks when I shift into a gear, and when I take off - my regular > mechanic says Torque Converter and it's killing the CV Joints. I told them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Convert and CV joints out - most likely because there was no computer code > for them. SO WHY DIDNT YOUR MECHANIC FIX THE PROBLEM??? Damn stop Crying!!!! > Why are dealer service dept's like this? Why don't they fix your car when > you take it to them? I'm so sick of dealers. I have an extended warranty and > my guess is that they want out of it as cheaply as they can, wait till the > warranty is over, then fix the car for 2-3x what a regular mechanic will > charge you. I'm sick of it - can someone explain to me why this is? I can explain it to you and i have never told anyone this but your an Idiot!!! you post a question here, or should I say you cry on here , dont give a year make or model and expect to get answers. get a life or buy a Ford!! Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech. at the dealer!! > Ticked off bad, > > -TRogers >> I took my car in for 3 issues... >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > fixed. > You DONT replace a part just because there is a code!!!! I didn't ask them to replace it! All I asked them to do was to physically check the EGR Valve to make sure it was working ok. That's it - period. They did not, because there was no code at the time. >> 2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to > call [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > on it!!! if you spray water and see them arcing there is a > problem!!!!!!!!!!!! Your regular mechanic needs to be replaced!!!! This problem did NOT exist when the plugs and wires were changed out. The car IS going back to them tomorrow, but the EGR problem came up BEFORE the plugs and wires were changed. AND the regular mechanic used the OEM parts at a lower price than what a dealer would charge for them. >> 3) My car clunks when I shift into a gear, and when I take off - my > regular [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > SO WHY DIDNT YOUR MECHANIC FIX THE PROBLEM??? Damn stop Crying!!!! Because I have an extended warranty - Chrysler Added Care Plus - that will cover this crap. Why pay much more than you have to? I have a $100.00 deductible, that is a heck of a lot better than $750.00 or so to tear apart the transmission. I have a right to voice my opinion in a public forum such as this. You have a problem with my rant because you are a dealer tech, but it's not directed at you, so take it easy! >> Why are dealer service dept's like this? Why don't they fix your car when >> you take it to them? I'm so sick of dealers. I have an extended warranty [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > give a year make or model and expect to get answers. get a life or buy a > Ford!! So I'm an "idiot" because a Dodge dealer service dept did not do their job right and I chose to rant about it on a public forum? I didn't name names either. If it makes you feel better to resort to name calling, feel free - I have broad shoulders. Whatever floats your boat. Look, I did NOT post my year/make/model because I DON'T want someone on here to tell me what is/might be wrong. I just want to know why you take a car to a dealer, tell them specifically what the problem(s) are, just ask them to check it out and PHYSICALLY see if the EGR is ok, PHYSICALLY see that the Torque Converter is ok, PHYSICALLY see that the CV joints are ok. But it seems like, if there is no computer code, there's no problem. And that's MY problem. I asked them to PHYSICALLY check it out, you know, get their hands dirty, but they refused because there is no computer code. Stop taking offense because you work for a dealer. This is NOT aimed at Glenn Beasley, but the dealer service centers that I have been to (2 of them). They charge WAY too much for labor, over-price all their parts, and then don't troubleshoot all the issues fully or correctly. If I did my job this way, I would not have a job. > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech. at the dealer!! > >> Ticked off bad, >> >> -TRogers Check your deductable. I believe, and I could be wrong, that deductable is $50 at Chrysler/Dodge dealership and $100 elsewhere. Mine is that way anyhow. >>> I took my car in for 3 issues... >>> [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] >>> >>> -TRogers > Check your deductable. I believe, and I could be wrong, that deductable is > $50 at Chrysler/Dodge dealership and $100 elsewhere. Mine is that way [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > >>> > >>> -TRogers The deductible ranges from 0 to 100 dollars, depending on what you paid for the contract. the higher the deductible the lower the contract would cost. His contract doesn't cover an EGR valve I stand corrected. My stupid. My warranty covers everything - including electrical, emissions, drive train, and yes even paint - everything. I asked that question several times and found it also in writing. I think I even get 2 years of free oil changes as well as part of the deal but that may be a dealership incentive. I need to verify that one. >> Check your deductable. I believe, and I could be wrong, that deductable > is [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > the contract. the higher the deductible the lower the contract would cost. > His contract doesn't cover an EGR valve >> Check your deductable. I believe, and I could be wrong, that deductable >is [quoted text clipped - 154 lines] >the contract. the higher the deductible the lower the contract would cost. >His contract doesn't cover an EGR valve An EGR valve is covered as an emission part for a minimum of 80000 miles by federal law.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > An EGR valve is covered as an emission part for a minimum of 80000 > miles by federal law. 2 years, 24,000 miles. Been that way since 1996 It's $100.00 at Dodge dealers, or anywhere for that reason. > Check your deductable. I believe, and I could be wrong, that deductable > is $50 at Chrysler/Dodge dealership and $100 elsewhere. Mine is that way [quoted text clipped - 134 lines] >>>> >>>> -TRogers Federal Emissions Coverage: Components under the federal emission defect warranty are covered for 36 months/36,000 miles and specified major emission control components are covered for 8 years/80,000 miles. Specified major emission control components under emission performance warranty are also covered for 8 years/80,000 miles. In addition, emission performance warranty is applicable for 24 months/24,000 miles in states and local jurisdictions that require a periodic EPA-approved inspection and maintenance program. Also: The Hidden Warranty (and secret Chrysler warranties) The universal "hidden warranty"Every car sold in the United States comes with a warranty you may not be aware of. It covers a variety of components for five years or 50,000 miles. Newer cars are be covered by an even longer warranty on selected components, such as the computer and catalytic converter. This is the "emissions warranty," designed to ensure that American cars do not pollute as badly as they otherwise would. It places the burden of emission system reliability on the automaker, so they have to find ways to make the car stay "clean" for as long as they can, or pay to fix it. There are actually longer warranties available for many cars depending on the year. Check your manual or the DOT. Buying a new car? You don't need to get an extended warranty from the dealer; click here for another extended warranty source. (Allpar benefits from your choice.) Check your warranty booklet for details. 1993 models, for example, covered not just the obvious emissions-related items, but also the coil, fuel injection, spark plugs, speed and temperature sensors, throttle body, turbocharger, even secondary ignition wires. (Some of these items are only covered to the first replacement interval - e.g. spark plugs are covered until 30,000 miles or so). Catalytic converters on vehicles built after 1995 are warranted for eight years or 80,000 miles. If your dealer gives you trouble - some claim ignorance and refuse to believe the booklet that comes with the car! - try calling Chrysler at 800 992 1997. If that fails, or for more information than you get with your car, write to: Director, Field Operation and Support Division (6406J) EPA 401 M Street Southwest Washington, DC 20460 SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Speaking aside from the service dept. I too ,like many people, disliked car salesman. But when I moved and needed a job quickly , I got a job as a car salesman at a local dealer. I did this job for a total of 3 months. I said to myself " I am gonna be different than the slick car salesman, I am gonna give every customer the best deal I can." Just as long as I can pay rent ,food,etc. Well to make a very long story short . I have a deep respect now for the majority of car salesman . I have never been lied to so many times in my lifetime . And who was the biggest liar? The salesmanager? nope..... The salesman? ......nope ...The service manager? nope ......The Owner of dealership? ....nope ...It was THE CUSTOMER!! Yes you heard me THE CUSTOMER!! I bent over backwards on every deal to get it approved and it was never never good enough for the customer. Every customer thinks your making tons and tons of money off a sale. DO you know how much a car salesman gets off a 'mini' deal? Well put it this way I worked over two weeks trying to give thus guy the best deal I could on this TRuck that he said he loved ,but he was shopping around so he did the usual test drive ,call backs follow ups and finally he agreed .We ended up selling below invoice @$50,000 . And off of that $50,000 deal do you know how much I made??? I made a whopping $50.00 commission..wow ..all that for two weeks work!!!!. I was mortified and went to my sales manager asking if this was a mistake. And he said they actually lost $200.00 on the deal. Even after ALL dealer kickbacks and incentives etc.....Man that sucks...Also every buyer that comes into the lot constantly says.. "Im just Looking"...... 90% of customers say there 'just looking'.... Most customers going into a dealership have there mind made that salesman are all crooks ,so the customer already has somewhat of a chip on there shoulder. Just Imagine working 12 hours a day 6 days a week of this constant " Oh well Im just looking I'll be back at 4 or 5 pm , will you be here." Then I say yes I'll be here..here is my card..Then they'd NEVER show up . Id say about 95% of the people I talked too lied to me . And here I was , trying to be an honest car salesman with good deals .Something I 'THOUGHT' that customers wanted. But they wouldn't let me ,as hard as I tried. they constantly lied all the time. And I am not talking about just not showing up ,I am talking about Everything ,....down payment..money owed on loan.....age.....money earned...you name it they said it and lied about it ..... One guy even said he had ice cream in his truck and he had to leave.. AFTER HE JUST TOOK A 60 min talk and test drive with me. WHY THE f.ck WOULD YOU GO BUY ICE CREAM AND TAKE A 60 minute visit to a dealership?? Why didn't he just say " HEy YOU KNOW i don't wanna buy this car , thank you have a nice day." .... HE FORGOT THAT WHEN MY SALES MANAGER DID AN INSPECTION ON HIS TRADE IN HE NOTED HOW CLEAN IT WAS..THERE WAS NO f.cking ICE CREAM IN HIS TRUCK. !!!UGH f.cking LIARS!!!I mean I cant STRESS how epidemic it is that the amount of customers lie. I have so many stories like that. Its really on a biblical scale!!. Here I was never being a car salesman before ,thinking 'oh well car-salesman are crooks I am gonna change that'. WELL MY BIGGEST surprise was how ruthless, liars,scammers the customers are. I would get to work and start at 8:00 am and leave at 8:00 pm for six days a week with one day OFF --THAT IS 70 HOURS in a week !! And every other week we would get a HALF DAY off ..BUT GUESS WHAT ???? When you would greet a customer in the morning on your half day they would say 'well I am really serious about buying, will you be here at 6:00 pm?" I am like yes I will..BUT INSIDE MY HEAD I am LIKE NOOO there probably lying and its my much anticipated HALF DAY OFF..Ugh...but never the less I was there for the customer to help him/her get a deal ,so I always said YES I'll be here with a smile ............ SO 6:00 PM rolls around then 7:00pm then 7:30pm then finally closing time 8:00 pm ..NO SHOW FROM THE CUSTOMER!!!! CRAP there goes my half day off.... gone again!! .... because of another lying bullshitting customer. Needless to say I got tired of being lied to all the time and giving the 1,000th test drive to the BOZO who just wants to see how fast the new Mustang-GT is with no sincere intention of buying one. And every a.shole wants to come to the dealership and talk about how kool this new car is on your lot and the HP AND torque blah f.cking blah ..and they have no intention of buying. DO YOU f.cking REALIZE THAT I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THAT SAME f.cking CAR TO THE OTHER 40 BOZOS IN THE SAME WEEK OR EVEN IN THAT SAME f.cking MORNING BEFORE YOU???? DO YOU??? .....Its hard to be enthusiastic when you know(in the back of you head) this a.shole is just wasting time on his day off with zero intention of buying, BUT in the back of your head your like "well he said he was serious." but ..is he serious ??because the last 9 out of 10 people lied to me..Is this guy lying too???? Turns out yep he's full of sh.t !! And then that same WHOLE f.cking senario repeats itself over and over and over and over every day 12 hours a day 6 days a week!.......Keep in mind now 12 HOUR DAYS NOT 8 HOURS A DAY BUT 12 HOURS OF THIS sh.t!....Being a carsalesman is alot harder than Id ever thought or imagined and its no place for honest people like me .And I can sincerly blame that on the customers. 'Buyers are truly liars'. > >> I took my car in for 3 issues... > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > because there > was no code at the time. You have to connect a scan tool to properly test the EGR and or check monitors. More then likely you didnt want to pay the diagnostic test to have tis done or they would have done it > >> 2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to > > call [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> the line stuff too. But instead of saying to replace the wires only, they > >> said the plugs too! Why? My regular mechanic said they are full of BS. Top of the line wires? did it just go from top of the line to now MOPAR wires?. If the top of the line wires fouled a plug the technician would have wanted to cover his a.s and replace the fouled plug as well because you would have been complaining that the misfire was still there > > Why the hell dont you take it back to the place that put the plugs and > > wires [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > plugs and wires were changed. AND the regular mechanic used the OEM parts at > a lower price than what a dealer would charge for them. If you used OEM parts that were 6 weeks old they would have been covered under the warranty and the dealer would have replaced them for free. if the wires were arcing they were cheap parts > >> 3) My car clunks when I shift into a gear, and when I take off - my > > regular [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > cover > this crap. Chrysler added care plus does NOT cover EGR valves!!! Why pay much more than you have to? I have a $100.00 deductible, > that > is a heck of a lot better than $750.00 or so to tear apart the transmission. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > take it > easy! I have no problem of your rant, im voicing my opinion just as you are and im not in any way offended by what you say. You are taking you car and having someone else check it out and crying Warranty. then when you take it to the dealer you dont want to pay to have it checked out because some "Philthy" said it was bad > >> Why are dealer service dept's like this? Why don't they fix your car when > >> you take it to them? I'm so sick of dealers. I have an extended warranty [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> warranty is over, then fix the car for 2-3x what a regular mechanic will > >> charge you. I'm sick of it - can someone explain to me why this is? As I stated, your plan does not cover EGR Valves. is this EGR valve causing your other problems that set the code??? > > I can explain it to you and i have never told anyone this but your an > > Idiot!!! you post a question here, or should I say you cry on here , dont [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > broad shoulders. > Whatever floats your boat. No your an idiot because you think a technician is going to look at your car and fix it based on what another "Philthy" said was wrong with it. Apparently the shop that put the plugs and wires on it 6 weeks ago misdiagnoised your problem, put cheap parts on your car and now they cant fix it so they tell you it is warranty!! > Look, I did NOT post my year/make/model because I DON'T want someone on here > to tell me what is/might be wrong. I just want to know why you take a car > to a dealer, tell them specifically what the problem(s) are, just ask them > to check O yea, Now that makes alot of sense!! You tell them what is wrong with the vehicle or just ask them to check and dont want to pay the diagnostic charge > it out and PHYSICALLY see if the EGR is ok, PHYSICALLY see that the Torque > Converter is ok, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > over-price all their parts, and then don't troubleshoot all the issues fully > or correctly. Over priced all parts?? What the ones that dont cause arcing when water is sprayed on them? > If I did my job this way, I would not have a job. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> > >> -TRogers >> >> I took my car in for 3 issues... >> >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >monitors. More then likely you didnt want to pay the diagnostic test to have >tis done or they would have done it Diagnostics not covered by warrantee and required before repair can be done? Come on. MAX - your dealers are stooping THAT LOW? >> >> 2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to >> > call [quoted text clipped - 144 lines] >> >> >> >> -TRogers SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:48:33 -0400 I can't fully explain it, but it has been a problem for quite some time. Not just Dodge dealers - but a large proportion of "american" dealers. Sadly it's even starting to hit the import service departments now too. Number one, service managers are salesmen, not mechanics. If they can't bill something, they can't/won't do anything. Number two, mechanics work on flat rate. If they can't bill something, they won't do anything. Number three, too many mechanics today don't know how to troubleshoot. Vehicles have gotten more complex, and mechanics have gotten to depend on the computer diagnostics. If the computer says there is no problem the can't/won't do anything. Number four, the "salesman" service managers don't like ANYONE telling them what's wrong with the car or second guessing them. They are "sick and tired" of people who "know more than the mechanic", so they don't listen to anybody any more. If the mechanic cannot (in a VERY short time) duplicate the problem, he won't do anything. Number five, Why fix it under warranty if they can "make it go away" until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). It all boils down to greed. One of the reasons I got out of that business. I was service manager for 10 years - and I WAS a mechanic. My mechanics were NOT on flat rate. If my mechanics could not troubleshoot a problem, I could (and did). I and my mechanics were trained and constantly upgraded to understand the vehicle systems and failure modes. If you didn't want to keep up and/or couldn't/wouldn't learn, you found yourself a different job. The customer was king. HE knew what was bothering him about the car. I asked the right questions to be able to point the mechanic in the right direction to find the problem. I would very often PERSONALLY test drive the car with the owner both before and after the repair to verify the problem/repair. EVERY repair was test driven by the mechanic when finished. In the 10 years I was service manager I made the Dealer Principal over $1million. He wasn't happy.(read that "he was greedy") He wanted me to charge for every little thing I did for a customer, even though a work-order cost $25 (20 years ago) to process over it's lifetime, and many of the little things I did for customers would have been terribly overpriced at the $25 it would have taken to just break even. The service department sold more cars than the salesmen. I walked. The dealership hired a salesman as service manager and went flat rate. A lot of customers walked. Whenever I started missing "the business" I just whacked my head a few times until the feeling went away. After about 5 years I stopped missing it altogether. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Now THAT is what I was looking for! Thank you VERY MUCH for sharing this! I totally agree with this perception! -Tom >>Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:48:33 -0400 > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > times until the feeling went away. After about 5 years I stopped > missing it altogether. I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. I would be the best person to identify an issue and be able to tell a mechanic what is going on. They should then go in and check it out FULLY. Not give me this crap about "if there's no computer code, there's nothing to fix." Then charge me $70.00 for the 10 minutes he scan-tooled the computer. Why the heck would I make something up (ex: P0404 EGR code) just to take my car into the shop and pay out hard earned money? THAT doesn't make sense. The only time my car is in the shop is when there is a problem. And now, with the NYS inspections, emissions is a big issue - if ANY computer code is on, you DON'T pass inspection. Anyway... I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one VERY happy, repeat customer! -Tom > Number four, the "salesman" service managers don't like ANYONE telling > them what's wrong with the car or second guessing them. They are "sick [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all > make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). > I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when > the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with the NYS inspections, emissions is a big issue - if ANY computer code is > on, you DON'T pass inspection. Anyway... Not saying you made something up, The code could have been set for a number of things, Computer related, vacuum related, wiring related or even a PCM fault. If the lite is not on that means that the problem had corrected itself, it is NOT a hard fault meaning the problem is not there at this time. It would be a stored fault with a possible intermittent problem!! Therefore if the dealer or whoever charged you a check out fee. It would have come back as an educated guess to fix your problem or no work performed at this time and you would have been charged for the check out time! Thus feeling like you spent money for absolutely nothing!! There are TSB's out that require a reflash of the engine controller that may or may not pertain to your problem. since you do not want to specify year make and model all you have on here is going to be a gripe that your independent/dealer can not fix your car > I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one VERY > happy, repeat customer! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all > > make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). >> I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when >> the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >you have on here is going to be a gripe that your independent/dealer can not >fix your car Max, without knowing the make/model/year, other than it's a Mopar - Any Mopar mechanic worth his salt knows the EGR issues on the 4 cyl engines - and knows they can be intermittent. The LEAST they could have done is checked for a bad vacuum hose. They are VERY COMMON. It is a WELL KNOWN PROBLEM. It costs about a buck to fix. Every Chrysler dealership mechanic should be checking for the problem every time they work on one of these cars - complaint or not - CEL or not. And the dealer should be supplying the hose FREE OF CHARGE for every one found bad. Best customer relations you could envision - "by the way, there was a minor problem with your emission system -We fixed it for you - here's the part we replaced - NO CHARGE - Have a good day!!" Best buck and 5 minutes you could ever spend. >> I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one VERY >> happy, repeat customer! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all >> > make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > >> I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when > >> the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >that require a reflash of the engine controller that may or may not pertain > >to your problem. since you do not want to specify year make and model all > >you have on here is going to be a gripe that your independent/dealer can not > >fix your car [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > for you - here's the part we replaced - NO CHARGE - Have a good day!!" > Best buck and 5 minutes you could ever spend. WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine controller for an intermittent fault for turning the Check engine lite on and setting a code for the EGR . Once again ...WORNG The newer model vehicles do NOT use a vacuum controlled EGR. it is all electronic. If you knew what you were talking about you would Know that a P0404 fault code is An EGR postion sensor fault there fore this valve is strickly electronic and DOES NOT use vacuum to operate the EGR valve. Try again Glenn > >> I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one VERY > >> happy, repeat customer! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> > until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all > >> > make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha > require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > An EGR postion sensor fault there fore this valve is strickly electronic > and DOES NOT use vacuum to operate the EGR valve. Try again If one were to assume that vacuum operated EGR valves and EGR position sensors must be mutually exclusive in any possible EGR system then one's assumption would also be WORNG. Toyota MDT in MO >> WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha >> require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >sensors must be mutually exclusive in any possible EGR system then >one's assumption would also be WORNG. Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that uses a position sensor. And what the hell does 'WORNG' mean? >Toyota MDT in MO > >> WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha > >> require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that > uses a position sensor. I can't, quick or otherwise. Now go back and read what I wrote about *any* EGR design possibility. Some vehicles currently driving on the road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor. Now read the message I was replying to, and imagine if one were to think that, just because one had a P0404 code, then one could not have a vacuum hose somewhere in their EGR system. (any make, any model, theoretical or otherwise) > And what the hell does 'WORNG' mean? Damn, are you *that* thick? Read the message I responded to. The key "word" is even in capitals. You did quote both messages. Toyota MDT in MO >> >> WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha >> >> require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >I can't, quick or otherwise. No surprise there... >Now go back and read what I wrote about *any* EGR design possibility. Some vehicles currently driving on the >road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor. The OP wasn't talking about *any* EGR design possibility, I believe he was talking about a Dodge dealer. On a Dodge, a vacuum operated EGR and an EGR position sensor would be mutually exclusive. > Now >read the message I was replying to, and imagine if one were to think [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Damn, are you *that* thick? Read the message I responded to. The key >"word" is even in capitals. You did quote both messages. I see you don't get sarcasm either. I won't bother explaining. >Toyota MDT in MO > >> Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that > >> uses a position sensor. > > >I can't, quick or otherwise. > > No surprise there... I never said I could, so why would there be a surprise at any cost? I know the OP referred to a Chrysler product. I realize there is some wisdom in maxpower's point regarding non-vacuum controlled EGR valves and a P0404. Unfortunately, he (you?) is dimwitted enough to never consider the big picture as evidenced by a great number of his posts. His attack of claresnyder(sp) was pretty weak, but expected. Again, read what I said and find any technical fault with it. You can't? Great. > >Now go back and read what I wrote about *any* EGR design possibility. Some vehicles currently driving on the > >road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor. > > The OP wasn't talking about *any* EGR design possibility, I believe he > was talking about a Dodge dealer. On a Dodge, a vacuum operated EGR > and an EGR position sensor would be mutually exclusive. Again, no sh.t. Did you google that info? Are you sure of it from real world experience? I'm *fairly* certain that it's true, enough to not bother arguing (on Chryslers) but wouldn't rule it out completely. Of course, I hardly touch Chrysler products but still understand that generality off the top of my head. Don't own any, have only a few in my circle, don't see them or care obout them. I would be emabarrased for any Chrysler enthusiast/mechanic that *didn't* know that. BTW, there were plenty of different control systems introduced from joint ventures such as the Diamond Star badged imports which could show up at a "Dodge dealer". Do you know if all of them (including pre-1996 California quasi-OBDII models) were devoid of vacuum EGR/lift sensors? > I see you don't get sarcasm either. I won't bother explaining. I'm certain your question was one of intentional sarcasm. Its wittiness was multifaceted and gay. Toyota MDT in MO >> >> Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that >> >> uses a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >read what I said and find any technical fault with it. You can't? >Great. Technical fault? No. Irrelevant, considering the OP was talking about a Chrysler product? Yes! If you want to use irrelevant posts to take weak shots at somebody 'cause you don't like 'em, then knock yourself out. I was just pointing out that Glenn was right, and your post didn't make any sense in the context of this thread. >> >Now go back and read what I wrote about *any* EGR design possibility. Some vehicles currently driving on the >> >road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Again, no sh.t. Did you google that info? No, but you may want to give it a try. >Are you sure of it from real world experience? Yes. > I'm *fairly* certain that it's true, enough to >not bother arguing (on Chryslers) but wouldn't rule it out [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >of them (including pre-1996 California quasi-OBDII models) were devoid >of vacuum EGR/lift sensors? Yes. >> I see you don't get sarcasm either. I won't bother explaining. > >I'm certain your question was one of intentional sarcasm. Its >wittiness was multifaceted and gay. Such eloquence! >Toyota MDT in MO > >> >> Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that > >> >> uses a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Technical fault? No. Irrelevant, considering the OP was talking about > a Chrysler product? Yes! Correct. I wasn't attempting to be relevant. I can't do that 24/7 365. > If you want to use irrelevant posts to take weak shots at somebody > 'cause you don't like 'em, then knock yourself out. I was just > pointing out that Glenn was right, and your post didn't make any sense > in the context of this thread. I already conceded that -however- knew it when posting. I've been pissy on NG lately and it shows. Oh well, life goes on. FWIW, I feel Glenn is a real asset to posters regarding Chrysler help. I have deliberately scrolled right down to his replies for years, but take issue with the manner that he (occasionally) jumps on people, in the sense that he gets bent really easily. He doesn't always see all sides to the issue, and rather goes into tunnel vision attack mode. He's never responded to me, even in the beginning when my replies were of the kinder, more collaborative nature. I guess that my posts, both good and malevolent are blocked, ignored, don't show on his reader, whatever... and life goes on. > >> >Now go back and read what I wrote about *any* EGR design possibility. Some vehicles currently driving on the > >> >road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No, but you may want to give it a try. Google wouldn't be my choice for auto info, especially trying to determine which vehicles in the Chryco lineup, if any, ever came equipped with the aforementioned combination. > >Are you sure of it from real world experience? > Yes. That makes one of us. > > I'm *fairly* certain that it's true, enough to > >not bother arguing (on Chryslers) but wouldn't rule it out [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Such eloquence! Now *that's* proper sarcasm! Toyota MDT in MO > > >> >> Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that > > >> >> uses a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > both good and malevolent are blocked, ignored, don't > show on his reader, whatever... and life goes on. I read all the post's and dont block any of them out. I have just as much right to say what I want to say as the next person. I will NOT get into Bullshit discussions that come out of what is said on here. I dont have time for that. The fact is, the OP made it sound as if the dealer was supposed to check his vehicle out for free. We dont get paid by the hour we get paid by the work we do. Just because the OP was told his EGR valve was bad by another dealer does not mean the dealer is going to replace it. The OP has purchased a low line service contract that does not cover EGR valves therefore if he wanted it checked out he would have had to pay for it. Most people I find on here that cry do not tell the whole side of the story. You would be surprised of how many e mails I get from Posters on here about there issues. They dont tell the complete story that was acually done to the car to try and fix it. A vin number tells alot about the history of a vehicle and the work that has been done to try and correct a problem. I forget who said it.... but the OP's vehicle has an electronic EGR valve. Unless you acually get the scan tool out and run the monitor to check it, which means driving the vehicle under a certain speed and a certian load you can not test this device. Once again, it has no vacuum hose to it. So what I said in my first post was merely making a point that the OP was crying NOT FIXED when he did not want to pay to have it checked out after the Independent shop blew him off to the dealer. I only work on Dodge and Chrysler Products and that is what we were talking baout therefore I had no reason to answer the question about other EGR valves on a different Manufactures vehicle.Once again, i do this as a favor to those who have a ligitmate question or problem. I spend alot of time researching and going thru wire schematics to answer questions. I dont have time for the bullshit that goes on such as this thread. Glenn > > >> >Now go back and read what I wrote about *any* EGR design possibility. Some vehicles currently driving on the > > >> >road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO > > > >> >> Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that > > > >> >> uses a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > thru wire schematics to answer questions. I dont have time for the bullshit > that goes on such as this thread. Thanks for replying. Many dealer techs work on a wide variety of vehicles which usually comes from their mass of trade-in resales. I guess your shop is different or you have one specific guy to do that work. Your dealer doesn't sell the Jeep line? Toyota MDT in MO > > > > >> >> Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that > > > > >> >> uses a position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO We are Chrysler only, we do have 2 Jeep Techs because we due tons of work on those vehicles, We are not able to get the Jeep franchise because a dealer down the street has it. I have worked on Dodge for 20 years but got out of that 7 years ago. We have one technician that works on all used vehicles. He inspects and does the repairs Glenn >> >> I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know >when [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >Glenn Like I said - no model info so we are all guessing. Last Chrysler I worked on was a '98. PO401 code - insufficient EGR flow.(had to go check) PO404 means the sensor thinks the pintle(or whatever) is in the wrong position for the requested flow, while PO401 means the A/F ratio does not change in proper relation to the requested flow. (Insufficient EGR flow) >> >> I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one >VERY [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> > until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all >> >> > make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > >> >> I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know > >when [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > not change in proper relation to the requested flow. (Insufficient EGR > flow) I know what the codes means and how to diagnois them, You were saying that "The least they could have done was check for a bad vacuum hose" I was just point out there this vehicle has no vacumm hose and has to be diagnoised with a scan tool. Ap0401 and a P0404 are 2 totally different faults > >> >> I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one > >VERY [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >> >> > until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all > >> >> > make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). >I know what the codes means and how to diagnois them, You were saying that >"The least they could have done was check for a bad vacuum hose" I was just >point out there this vehicle has no vacumm hose and has to be diagnoised >with a scan tool. Ap0401 and a P0404 are 2 totally different faults Exactly what vehicle are we talking about? Don't remember it being stated. And SOME vehicles use elecrit controls to vacuum operators, with electrical feedback. Same codes can STILL be aused by bad vacuum components. Mabee not on a Dodge? SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha > require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine > controller for an intermittent fault for turning the Check engine lite on > and setting a code for the EGR . OK Maxpower, I have 2 minivans, a 94 and 95 T&C with the 3.8L BOTH vans do this - set the EGR code in the CEL, intermittently. I've swapped valves, replaced them, taken the old ones apart. No problems, no cracked diaphram, selonoids work. EGR system passes all the diagnostics in the FSM. Both vans pass NoX emissions with flying colors. This problem has been happening for years on both of these vans. This is the FIRST time I've read in this forum any statement from anyone claiming to be a dealership mechanic that this is a known problem with a firmware update for the engine computer to fix it on certain vans. So, are mine part of this known problem? If so, what is the TSB #? Ted > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha > > require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ted Hi Ted Yes and here is the TSB# 18-01-97 (keep in mind this is a Canadian TSB # not sure if it is the # for the states) Claude > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha > > require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the EGR code in the CEL, intermittently. I've swapped valves, replaced > them, What code? EGR Solenoid Circuit or EGR System failure? > taken the old ones apart. No problems, no cracked diaphram, selonoids work. > EGR system passes all the diagnostics in the FSM. Both vans pass NoX > emissions > with flying colors. This problem has been happening for years on both of > these vans. You mention nothing about replacing the part with a new part? The tiny male pins in the transducer solenoid are known to get water in them and corrode or even break off and setting the Solenoid fault > This is the FIRST time I've read in this forum any statement from anyone > claiming to be a dealership mechanic that this is a known problem with > a firmware update for the engine computer to fix it on certain vans. I never said it was a know problem. The OP was crying on here about his deal with the dealer and I said Since he wont give out year/make/model he wont get help. I said there there was a reflash out on a particular year van. There is no reflash out on yours. > So, are mine part of this known problem? If so, what is the TSB #? > > Ted > > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans > tha [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > wont get help. I said there there was a reflash out on a particular year > van. There is no reflash out on yours. Max There is a flash update for said vehcile TSB#18-01-97 (keep in mind this is a Canadian TSB # not sure if it is the # for the states) > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha > > require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ted I take that back, there is a reflash out that could pertain to your vehicle if the fault code is for EGR system failure. It only pertains to setting a fault where the ambient temp is below 40 degree F and that is the TSB that was posted earlier. > > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans > tha [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > fault where the ambient temp is below 40 degree F and that is the TSB that > was posted earlier. It is the general EGR system failure code. And yes I did try a new valve in one of the vehicles. And no, the pins on the selonoids are fine. It could possibly be bad FEMALE contacts in the selonoid plug - but to have both vehicles doing it? I don't live in an area with a lot of corrosion (no salt on the roads, etc.) so general we don't see corrosion issues on electrical. But, as for ambient temp being below 40 - that one I don't know. I hadn't noticed. The fact that the computers are flashable, though, that's useful. I'll have to get one of them done and see if it makes a difference. Ted > > > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans > > tha [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Ted Ted. Does it happen in Temp below 40 degrees? do you notice that is only sets in the winter? > > > > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model > Minivans [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Ted. Does it happen in Temp below 40 degrees? do you notice that is only > sets in the winter? It is very random. It will go for months without doing it then do it several times in succession. The more common trigger appears to be crusing at around 55Mph for a long period of time - such as a half hour. Interestingly enough, if I cruise for the same period of time at 65Mph it usually -won't- do it. But, I've had it do it 10 minutes after starting the van, and just doing 30Mph city driving. I can do the test procedure in the FSM all day long to each van and the EGR valve always checks out, whether the van is hot or cold. Both vehicles behave the same way and both give the same error codes, and both have very low NoX emissions. We have state-run IM testing here and you can take a vehicle through the test center for free any time you want. Both seem to have done this with the same regularity in both summer and winter. But, the coldest it ever gets here during winter is about down to 28 degrees. In other factoids, both engines have very different maintainence histories. The 95 was bathed in oil, serviced by the dealer. The 94 was bathed in dirt, and serviced by Clive with an assortment of kitchen implements. (I bought both vans used) The 94 seems to have been very happy with getting back on to a regular oil change regimen, and better maintainence. The 94 has about 145K on it, the 95 has about 120K on it. I have an OTC Monitor 4000E with the engine computer connector and one of these days if I get ambitious I keep thinking I'll set it up to record events, and see if I can catch the thing doing it. One obstacle to doing that, though, is that now with the better weather, I'm riding the CB750 every day and haven't done much driving in the van. Ted >> > > > > WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model >> Minivans [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > >Ted When i looked, that TSB only appllied to '95 models. Didn't see it for the '94, but I could have missed it. The fact that it's intermittent could have something to do with when the PCM actually runs the EGR 'monitor'. It's under specific conditions, so it may run at one speed (load) and not another. It does run under light load, steady cruise conditions. The PCM compares short term fuel trim without EGR to STFT with EGR. If there isn't enough of a shift, the fault is set. It could also be that they are right at the edge of failure. Sometimes they'll fail and sometimes they won't. Partially blocked EGR tubes and intake manifold passages could cause it. >I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when >the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >-Tom I had HUNDREDS. And not very many diss-satisfied. I'm aware of 3 or 4 that could not be satisfied- didn't matter WHAT you did. I could have given 2 of them a new car every year for life and they wouldn't have been satisfied - so I sent them down the road (after about 5 or 6 tries) >> Number four, the "salesman" service managers don't like ANYONE telling >> them what's wrong with the car or second guessing them. They are "sick [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all >> make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com You are "old school" much like Glenn and that is rare now days. Good, smart, and honest mechanics that know what they are doing are a rare find. When you do find one you keep using them and recommend them to your friends. >>I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when >>the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >>> until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all >>> make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car). > I took my car in for 3 issues... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > AutoZone tool is worthless, just so they can charge $70.00 to connect > theirs, but it showed the exact same code as the ignition method. One half hour of diagnostic time gets you a basic check out. Unfortunately, if you draw an incompetent mechanic or a thief, you will probably just get a code read. If you're lucky a bad tech will mention a pertinent TSB or recall outstanding that may fix the issue, and if you are "lucky", a bad tech will guess exactly which part you need. A good tech can find out a lot in a half hour checkout, but some problems require one hour or more to cover all of the appropriate diagnostic bases. I wouldn't like to get paid .5 to properly check out a code that requires 1 hour of work. Some techs screw the customer, and some techs screw themselves for the good of the customer. The rare lucky and good tech gets paid properly for any checkout time spent. > 2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to call > it, while maintaining a constant speed. They said they sprayed water on the > plug wires and they are arcing to ground. Need to replace the wires AND the > plugs they said! I Just had the plugs and wires changed 6 weeks ago! Top of > the line stuff too. But instead of saying to replace the wires only, they > said the plugs too! Why? My regular mechanic said they are full of BS. This is a situation that could take over one hour of combined testing (*with* the problem currently acting up) to cover torque converter shudder with test drive and scan tool, checking for proper closed loop fuel control and looking for ECM/ spark/fuel problem(s), possible scope testing in the shop or on a road test. But it sounds like the tech found that your wires were arcing. Sooo.... how did a reputable shop install Mopar wires for less than the dealer would sell them? How would they make any money on the part to cover business expenses? Every real shop gets OEM parts at a slight discount, then typically sells them at dealer list -- the same as most dealers sell them for. If they are new Mopar wires and they are arcing, perhaps there is an underlying cause, like misrouting, lean air/fuel mixture causing voltage demand to rise, chaffed wire on installation, wrong or incorrectly gapped plugs, etc... > 3) My car clunks when I shift into a gear, and when I take off - my regular > mechanic says Torque Converter and it's killing the CV Joints. I told them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Convert and CV joints out - most likely because there was no computer code > for them. Show the service writer what you are talking about or don't let them address this complaint. It could be engine mounts, a valve body issue, worn CV joints or side gears in the transaxle (of whatever model you have, which model is it again?) but I seriously doubt that a torque converter is causing shift shock during gear engagement. > Why are dealer service dept's like this? Why don't they fix your car when > you take it to them? I'm so sick of dealers. I have an extended warranty and > my guess is that they want out of it as cheaply as they can, wait till the > warranty is over, then fix the car for 2-3x what a regular mechanic will > charge you. I'm sick of it - can someone explain to me why this is? I don't know. I fix cars for a living, I don't get into the screwing of customers. It's hard to imagine how the bad mechanics can sleep at night, but that's the way it is. You need to be assertive if you want to get your $ worth of your extended warranty. Call the Chysler 800 service hotline if need be. You also need to realize that your other 'mechanic' might not know what the hell he is doing either, and that incompetence at any price isn't a bargain. Toyota MDT in MO >> I took my car in for 3 issues... >> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > >Toyota MDT in MO The most common cause of a "clunk" going into gear is an incorrectly adjusted "base idle". On today's cars it is computer controlled, but a "bad" tech can still screw it up. If the idle speed is right, the torque converter will be extremely "soft" on engagement and only "stiffen up" as the throttle is engaged. Throttle pressure will also be very low on engagement, with low apply pressures (which increase as the throttle is applied- old computers had a throttle or kickdown linkage, today the TPS tells the computer how deep your foot is into it and the computer adjusts the pressure) On Chryslers it is not uncommon for the idle air correction, or throttle bypass, whatever you want to call it, to stick (either open or closed). Stuck open you get a high base idle. You didn't mention the year and model, but another common failure, which will give you the EGR code is a cracked vacuum line from the "modulator" to the EGR diaphragm. The "modulator" is also prone to failure. Sadly, the part is only available(last I checked) with the EGR valve. Snagging one from a wreck can sometimes be the best way out (although you may well be getting another dud - unless the car is obviously collision damaged - many vehicles end up in the scrapyard because of emission related failures - at least here in Ontario.)Particularly common on Neon Twin Cams - but also common on single cams and "cloud cars". SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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