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Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / December 2003612 Scaglietti
http://www.ferrari.it/612scaglietti/612_Scaglietti.htm ...Looks much much better than earlier sketches led to believe. A very "happy" anthropomorphic front end, but rather regrettable nod to Audi/Bentley from the side and rear views. The instrument panel and dash is a clear miss (these are the same people who did the Daytona?) and must be designed by a marketeer rather than a driver; and the steering wheel looks rather discount aftermarket for $250k car.. Still: Considerable weight advantage over Aston, Bentley and M-B competitors (if the notorious Modena scales are to be believed) and a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the current Slab of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European auto design. > http://www.ferrari.it/612scaglietti/612_Scaglietti.htm > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > rather than a driver; and the steering wheel looks rather discount > aftermarket for $250k car.. It's not one of my favorites, but I do rather like it. It looks like it's grinning at you from the front, and I don't find the sides and rear to be derivative at all, except as evolution of Ferrari design. The front end is very similar to the 375MM S/n 0402 that was built by Scaglietti for Roberto Rossellini, and the rear end has the family relationship with the 550/575. The scallops in the side bring the 465 design forward. At least the "ick" factor wasn't nearly like the first pictures of the Enzo. I'm still undecided about the interior, though.  SignatureMike Hanson -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.scaleautosport.com >> http://www.ferrari.it/612scaglietti/612_Scaglietti.htm >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >It's not one of my favorites, but I do rather like it. It looks like it's >grinning at you from the front, A smirking grin, almost. >and I don't find the sides and rear to be >derivative at all, except as evolution of Ferrari design. To my eye, and compared to the 456, it's looks slabbier and porkier. Park it next to a Daytona and it will look like an 2003 Audi A4 Cab. >The front end is >very similar to the 375MM S/n 0402 that was built by Scaglietti for Roberto >Rossellini, and the rear end has the family relationship with the 550/575. Yeah, when FORZA pointed out the similarity to the Rosselini car it suddenly seemed so obvious... These latest drawings/pictures show a greatly subdued version of what was previously circulated, which was far over the top for me. Previously, the front fender line looked too pontoony and exaggerated. As to looking 550/575 in the rear; I can't agree, looks just like an evolution of the 456 to me, although the rear quarter windows could be 550 excess production. >The scallops in the side bring the 465 design forward. They work on the 456, they look "Corvette" on the 612: No longer functional, they should disappear altogether. Ferrari/Pinifarina have created many style and design elements which others have appropriated in false form; it's distasteful for them to be faking it themselves. >At least the "ick" >factor wasn't nearly like the first pictures of the Enzo. I have found beauty in the Enzo I didn't notice when it was launched. >I'm still undecided about the interior, though. The dash simply blows. I guess it will please those raised on GameBoy. Way too whiz-bang '50's "jet" car, and should the controls of a luxo coupe need to emulate the steering wheel of an F1 car? The rear seats look uncomfortable in the same way the Lancia Beta Coupe's fronts did, but they were indeed comfy as you please. Yet; I'd kill for one. Dale "Friggin" Carnegie wrote: > I have found beauty in the Enzo I didn't notice when it was launched. Same thing happened to me (I was just a little more public about it than you, as usual) > Yet; I'd kill for one. Great!! I've got a list. MC <<a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the current Slab of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European auto design.>> Funny, what I was wondering is who put the Ferrari badges on the 350Z? C. ><<a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the current Slab >of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European auto design.>> > >Funny, what I was wondering is who put the Ferrari badges on the 350Z? Exactly. (Who do you think Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan do anything novel, do you?) >><<a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the >>current Slab of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European auto [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Exactly. (Who do you think Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think > Nissan do anything novel, do you?) Aye, here we go again. Nissan have done much in the way of novel design. The 350Z is a case in point in fact. The 240Z is as well. The best example however is the 1989 300ZX, which was head & shoulders above anything yank or Japanese at the time, both looks-wise and in terms of dynamics. I would also consider Nissan to have rekindled the current "retro" design ideologies, along with possibly Mazda, with their whimsical Be-1, Pao, figaro and S-Cargo mini cars in the mid eightie and early nineties. The Skyline GT-Rs are also very unique, certainly not deriviative of anything else. This old chestnut that the Japanese never do anything but copy must be laid to rest, somehow... Ciao Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs Auctioning motoring-related items at eBay? http://www.carfolio.com/ebay/ ======================================================================== >>><<a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the >>>current Slab of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European auto [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Aye, here we go again. Nissan have done much in the way of novel design. >The 350Z is a case in point in fact. The 240Z is as well. Because you say so, or should we instead listen to Count Albrecht Goertz, who actually penned the 240Z and who enumerated a number of specific and obvious influences, from the Jag E-type (via the Toyota 2000) through the Daytona, with a quick stop at the Dino 246... ...The 350Z is merely a Kobe-Beafed up TT; nice and fatty. >The best >example however is the 1989 300ZX, which was head & shoulders above >anything yank or Japanese at the time, both looks-wise and in terms of >dynamics. With a front end nicked from the 512 TR... >I would also consider Nissan to have rekindled the current >"retro" design ideologies, along with possibly Mazda, with their >whimsical Be-1, Pao, figaro and S-Cargo mini cars in the mid eightie and >early nineties. Indeed; 'we can't think of anything, let's redo what's already been done'. >The Skyline GT-Rs are also very unique, certainly not deriviative of >anything else. > >This old chestnut that the Japanese never do anything but copy must be >laid to rest, somehow... It would certainly help if they were actually not "stealing" designs and details from the rest of the world, that would go a long way. >>>><<a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the >>>>current Slab of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > specific and obvious influences, from the Jag E-type (via the Toyota > 2000) through the Daytona, with a quick stop at the Dino 246... Having influences is _not_ copying. The E-Type link you'll have to admit is extremely tenuous anyway. As for the Dino 246, that's sheer fantasy. There is nothing in the 240Z that even remotely resembles any part of the Dino. > ...The 350Z is merely a Kobe-Beafed up TT; nice and fatty. Balls. A TT is merely a fluffed-up Beetle - the 350Z is a typical bland modern coupe. >>The best >>example however is the 1989 300ZX, which was head & shoulders above >>anything yank or Japanese at the time, both looks-wise and in terms of >>dynamics. > > With a front end nicked from the 512 TR... Yes, of course. Nicked from a design that came out 3 years after the 300ZX. Utter tripe, "Friggin'" Carnegie. As per "Friggin'" usual. >>I would also consider Nissan to have rekindled the current "retro" >>design ideologies, along with possibly Mazda, with their whimsical Be-1, >>Pao, figaro and S-Cargo mini cars in the mid eightie and early nineties. > > Indeed; 'we can't think of anything, let's redo what's already been > done'. That is not true for all retro styling efforts, although the vast majority do fit that description very well. Can you say "Ford GT40" oops, I mean "Ford GT"? Can you say "VW Beetle"? Can you say "retro-as-rehash design trends"? And *shock* - not Japanese. The Be-1 in particular was a clever design, without being a total rehash, it was more a suggestion of previous themes and idioms. The S-Cargo was a breath of fresh air in a staid and stale mid-eighties design slump. It was both witty and intelligent; at once cute with a strange sense of utility. The deliberate pun on "escargot" was fairly ballsy - which is of course a foreign concept to US manufacturers. >>The Skyline GT-Rs are also very unique, certainly not deriviative of >>anything else. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It would certainly help if they were actually not "stealing" designs and > details from the rest of the world, that would go a long way. Your racist stereotyping confirms only that you are, in fact, a blithering idiot. Ciao Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs Auctioning motoring-related items at eBay? http://www.carfolio.com/ebay/ ======================================================================== >>>>><<a genuine distinction in style from, even if influenced by, the >>>>>current Slab of Soap with Mailslot Windows vogue rampaging European [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Having influences is _not_ copying. ...But blatant copying is. Dino headlights, Dayton rear window, E-type hood bulge, fixed-head E-type and Daytona silhouette, ad nauseum. >The E-Type link you'll have to admit is extremely tenuous anyway. THE DESIGNER SAID SO HIMSELF. >As for the Dino 246, that's sheer fantasy. >There is nothing in the 240Z that even remotely resembles any part of the >Dino. "Sugar scoop" headlights, sweetie; very much a Dino characteristic when the 240Z was conceived and first produced. >> ...The 350Z is merely a Kobe-Beafed up TT; nice and fatty. > >Balls. A TT is merely a fluffed-up Beetle - the 350Z is a typical bland >modern coupe. So you say, but you have a political motive. >>>The best >>>example however is the 1989 300ZX, which was head & shoulders above [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Yes, of course. Nicked from a design that came out 3 years after the >300ZX. Utter tripe, "Friggin'" Carnegie. As per "Friggin'" usual. You may have me here, I never did care for the TR; too Japanese. >>>I would also consider Nissan to have rekindled the current "retro" >>>design ideologies, along with possibly Mazda, with their whimsical Be-1, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >That is not true for all retro styling efforts, although the vast >majority do fit that description very well. Can you say "Ford GT40" oops, ...Unimaginative POS. >I mean "Ford GT"? ...Give yourself a cookie, >Can you say "VW Beetle"? Absolutely useless styling. >Can you say "retro-as-rehash >design trends"? And *shock* - not Japanese. The Be-1 in particular was a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >deliberate pun on "escargot" was fairly ballsy - which is of course a >foreign concept to US manufacturers. Who gives a fuzzy rat's a.s? 'Japanese styling is *wittier* than US styling'... f.ck off already. You're trying to distinguish and even laud the better grade of excrement, rather than appreciate the roses. >>>The Skyline GT-Rs are also very unique, certainly not deriviative of >>>anything else. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Your racist stereotyping confirms only that you are, in fact, a >blithering idiot. ??? A) People who live in glass countries, and all... 2) Realizing that the Japanese auto industry's legacy to date is one of production achievements rather than innovative design and engineering, is racist? ...Just how does your feeble and unexercised mind compute that, sonny-boy? [snip] >>Having influences is _not_ copying. > > ...But blatant copying is. Well, which is it? _You_ claim that it's blatant copying, I quite obviously disagree. > Dino headlights, Dayton rear window, E-type hood bulge, fixed-head > E-type and Daytona silhouette, ad nauseum. > >>The E-Type link you'll have to admit is extremely tenuous anyway. > > THE DESIGNER SAID SO HIMSELF. As an influence, yes. Which designer could not have had the E-Type influence him ir her? You would also have to consider if you believe Goertz to be the designer of the 240Z. See specifically this (annotated) letter from Nissan in response to a letter Goertz himself sent them: http://zhome.com/History/Truth/NissanStatement.htm The pertinent sentence is this one: "While it is our view that the design of the 240Z was the product of Nissan's design staff, Nissan agrees that the personnel who designed that automobile were influenced by your fine work for Nissan and had the benefit of your designs." >>As for the Dino 246, that's sheer fantasy. There is nothing in the 240Z >>that even remotely resembles any part of the Dino. > > "Sugar scoop" headlights, sweetie; very much a Dino characteristic when > the 240Z was conceived and first produced. So in your view the Dino was the first to have such headlights? Riiiiiiiight. >>> ...The 350Z is merely a Kobe-Beafed up TT; nice and fatty. >> >>Balls. A TT is merely a fluffed-up Beetle - the 350Z is a typical bland >>modern coupe. > > So you say, but you have a political motive. Please elaborate. >>>>The best >>>>example however is the 1989 300ZX, which was head & shoulders above [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You may have me here, I never did care for the TR; too Japanese. Careful... one might be tempted to point at you and scream "racist xenophobe" *again*. >>>>I would also consider Nissan to have rekindled the current "retro" >>>>design ideologies, along with possibly Mazda, with their whimsical [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > styling'... f.ck off already. You're trying to distinguish and even > laud the better grade of excrement, rather than appreciate the roses. Firstly, the "US manufacturers" were mentioned in the light of not being brave - ie conservative. The wittier part of the argument was not contrasted against any group. It was _brave_, _daring_; which certainly is not a hallmark of US manufacturers. And yes, certain Japanese design did help lift the gloom of the eighties design and pave the way for a welcome new design attitude in the nineties and beyond. >>>>The Skyline GT-Rs are also very unique, certainly not deriviative of >>>>anything else. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > A) People who live in glass countries, and all... So now *I'm* racist because I'm South African? > 2) Realizing that the Japanese auto industry's legacy to date is one of > production achievements rather than innovative design and engineering, > is racist? > > ...Just how does your feeble and unexercised mind compute that, > sonny-boy? That wasn't your stated position. Your statement was: "Who do you think Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan do anything novel, do you?" and you followed up my initial response to that with "It would certainly help if they [the Japanese] were actually not "stealing" designs and details from the rest of the world, that would go a long way." Nowhere is any reference made to Japanese achievements of any sort, and all that is stated is that Japanese designers merely copy others' work... Ciao Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs Auctioning motoring-related items at eBay? http://www.carfolio.com/ebay/ ======================================================================== >That wasn't your stated position. Your statement was: "Who do you think >Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan do anything novel, do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Nowhere is any reference made to Japanese achievements of any sort, and >all that is stated is that Japanese designers merely copy others' work... So... If I don't engage in the mononeuronistic exercise of formulating and articulating *your* argument for you, you can't follow a train of thought? ...That would be even too tedious for usenet. >>That wasn't your stated position. Your statement was: "Who do you think >>Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan do anything novel, do [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and articulating *your* argument for you, you can't follow a train of > thought? "Friggen'" lobs a confusion grenade. Zak reels... Ciao Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs Auctioning motoring-related items at eBay? http://www.carfolio.com/ebay/ ======================================================================== >>>That wasn't your stated position. Your statement was: "Who do you think >>>Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan do anything novel, do [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Zak Wonderful .... just wonderful! Please continue at least a few more days before you both turn on me. MC <tears in his eyes> >>>Having influences is _not_ copying. >> [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > > Zak This has ALL been very satisfying, I just wanted you both to know that. MC [nonsense] >This has ALL been very satisfying, I just wanted you both to know that. I cannot say the same, he's extremely tedious and tiresome, while bringing nothing novel to the party. > [nonsense] >>This has ALL been very satisfying, I just wanted you both to know that. > > I cannot say the same, he's extremely tedious and tiresome, while > bringing nothing novel to the party. Actually I had the impression (false, obviously) that you were the one spouting unsubstatiated drivel try to fob it off as "opinion", and that I was the one rebutting your tripe with clear arguments and references as needed. Damn I obviously still haven't got the hang of this usenet thang... Ciao Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs Auctioning motoring-related items at eBay? http://www.carfolio.com/ebay/ ======================================================================== >> [nonsense] >>>This has ALL been very satisfying, I just wanted you both to know that. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >needed. Damn I obviously still haven't got the hang of this usenet >thang... Trust me, sunshine; you are not the impenetrably deep and complex character you believe yourself to be. <<Trust me, sunshine; you are not the impenetrably deep and complex character you believe yourself to be.>> Ah, Blessed Irony graces us with Her presence once again. C. :::who doesn't think that making up words makes one terribly *deep* either:::: ><<Trust me, sunshine; you are not the impenetrably deep and complex character >you believe yourself to be.>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >C. :::who doesn't think that making up words makes one terribly *deep* >either:::: ...Yet who fashions absurd allegations at the drop of a hat? Talk of irony, indeed. <<...Yet who fashions absurd allegations at the drop of a hat?>> You, apparently, as I've done nothing of the kind. <<Talk of irony, indeed.>> Yes, I was. You trying to dis someone as not being so *deep* as they believe themself to be is the very height of irony. C. ><<...Yet who fashions absurd allegations at the drop of a hat?>> > >You, apparently, as I've done nothing of the kind. Yeah... ><<Talk of irony, indeed.>> > >Yes, I was. You trying to dis someone as not being so *deep* as they believe >themself to be is the very height of irony. ...I'm afraid I've lost track, Princess; are you calling me "pot", "kettle", or "black"? <<...I'm afraid I've lost track>> Not surprisingly. C. <<Exactly. (Who do you think Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan do anything novel, do you?)>> Why would I care anything about Nissan? Of course, that also means that I don't care enough to slam them just because they aren't Ferrari.It's not like they're Porch or anything. C. ><<Exactly. (Who do you think Nissan was cribbing from? You don't think Nissan >do anything novel, do you?)>> > >Why would I care anything about Nissan? You brought it up, you made note that their specific design was recalled in the 612 (which is a stretch). >Of course, that also means that I don't >care enough to slam them just because they aren't Ferrari.It's not like they're >Porch or anything. The slam was on their derivative and committee engineered "styling", they have otherwise been excellent value for money now and then. |
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