 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / February 2004LA Auto Show report
Went to the LA Auto Show last night. Fairly enjoyable, very crowded. Saw the 2005 Mustang, in fastback and GT configuration. I like it. They had a blue-and-white Ford GT - seeing that car in person gave me goosebumps. I didn't like the BMW 645 CI in person. The Acura TL has more soul. Chrysler didn't have that outrageous ME Four Twelve showcar I've seen pictures of recently from the Detroit Auto Show, which I was told is still going on (also the reason why the Shelby Cobra Concept wasn't there either). Interesting link to Chrysler ME Four Twelve: http://www.allpar.com/cars/me412.html Chevy ... had this outstanding SS Concept Car I had never heard about. Alas, the 2005 Corvette they had on display was a real disappointment to me. From the back and sides it looks a lot sleeker, if that's possible, but then when you see the front end ... the headlights look like they were lifted from a 575M. It is such an unoriginal treatment that it kind of drags the whole design down. http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2003-Chevrolet-SS-Concept.htm And there was the Cadillac Sixteen, along with a black CTS-V and two XLRs with great paint jobs. The CTS-V really is a knockout, though in this case they could have done without the gangsta-gangsta high-polish chrome billeted grille. Maybe Dr. Dre likes it, but it didn't look right on the car to me. http://www.supercars.net/cars/2003@$Cadillac@$Sixteen%20Conceptg.html The aftermarket section had all kinds of outrageousness, mostly involving spinning chrome rims the size of trash can lids. LOTS of aftermarket Porsches. The exotic section wasn't really showing anything new. The Bentley Continental GT looks great in person but kind of "unBentley-ish". At the same time, the two Rolls-Royces Phaetons, both in black with high-gloss black rims, looked totally pimped out. I think most of the folks gawking at it were NBA players and families. A nice surprise: the Panoz Esperante, in black, looked awesome. And over at the Morgan display, there was a very nice gentleman with a ponytail and a junior handlebar mustache, who campaigns a yellow Morgan Aero 8 in a racing series I didn't catch the name of, standing next to Tiger's dad's World Challenge race car. He briefed me on the power upgrades coming for the Tiger Racing Aero 8 which I hope will put it into a position where SPEED might let us have an extended look at it once in while. Finally, Ferrari didn't have an Enzo. I asked the floor guy why, just out of curiousity, and he said, "There's no need to show it. We're done making them, they're all sold, and we don't have any more." I decided not to ask him why every road car in their display had Scuderia shields on it. Except for the 612 Scaglietti, in a kind of bold blue, which didn't really excite me. They put it in the middle of the display in a spot that kind of obscured it; folks couldn't wander up close to it. All in all, an enjoyable experience but - not wishing to sound elitist - marred by the crush of common, clueless, self-absorbed breeder clones this country (and the world) is overstuffed with. Everywhere one stood was an unsupervised small child screaming or spilling a drink, or some asswipe sticking their cell phone up high in front of my face to take a shot of a car, or a pack of Snoop Doggs walking around bumping into people instead of yielding, then getting into your face, or the everpresent crush of obnoxious suburban teenage "wannabee" gangstas climbing all over the cars yelling "Yeah, G!" or "Bling-bling, baby!". The coming Armaggeddon may well incinerate a lot of beautiful cars but in terms of population control and the extinction of an overrated and underachieving species it will be the smart move. Call me a misanthrope, perhaps even a sociopath, but after spending a night mingling with the great unwashed of the Southern California I wish I could help throw that switch. Every year i always see all those ghetto low life 17 year old kids / there baseball caps on sideways sitting in some high priced car pretending that they are in the market for a new Mercedes. I just laugh at the losers...The closest they will ever come to driving one is if they carjack one in south central l.a. This one guy was sitting in a BMW a few years ago & he was adjusting the seat & he really thought in his lame mind that he might be buying one & he had the radio on (for some reason the car was hooked up to a battery) & he was saying "this car is sick"!! listening to some rap crap real loud & the BWM rep came over and yelled "TURN IT DOWN!!!"....i just laughed. > Every year i always see all those ghetto low life 17 year old kids / > there baseball caps on sideways sitting in some high priced car > pretending that they are in the market for a new Mercedes. I just laugh > at the losers... So when you were a '17 year old kid', you never went to a car show to look at the shiny machines that you hoped one day you might be lucky enough to own? Well I certainly did, and I'm sure a lot of people here did too - the whole point of a car show is... to show cars - and whilst I'll agree with psycho Mike that legions of screaming children are somewhat distracting, to dismiss people as 'losers' for simply fulfilling the entire reason d'etre of the event (whilst separating yourself from this category by virtue of some supposedly superior 'buying power') is arrogantly contemptuous. Why is everyone so unpleasant of late? Paul  SignatureHttp://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk <<Why is everyone so unpleasant of late?>> Ask him if he's PMSing. G'head. C. "Paul Duffin" <paul.duffin@dial.pipex.removethisbit.com> wrote in message > Why is everyone so unpleasant of late? > > Paul Shut up, sissy. Heh heh heh... -Matt- "8^D" <<Every year i always see all those ghetto low life 17 year old kids /there baseball caps on sideways sitting in some high priced car pretending that they are in the market for a new Mercedes. I just laugh at the losers...The closest they will ever come to driving one is if they carjack one in south central l.a.>> Oh, and clearly you are far superior to those day dreamers, eh? Although, to be honest, it's not all that clear in this particular post. What with all your typos, punctuation and spelling errors. And, of course, there is the fact that anyone crowing their superiority thru such bigoted, obnoxious and obliquely racist statements has rather proven the reverse. <<This one guy was sitting in a BMW a few years ago & he was adjusting the seat & he really thought in his lame mind that he might be buying one & he had the radio on (for some reason the car was hooked up to a battery)>> Could it be that BMW wanted to demonstrate the stereo, GPS or other systems that their cars carry? <<& he was saying "this car is sick"!! listening to some rap crap real loud & the BWM rep came over and yelled "TURN IT DOWN!!!"....>> Yes, I'm quite sure that if you had parked your butt in his place and blared Britney Spears, the Dixie Chicks or Clay Aiken thru the sound system that the BMW representative would have practically gifted you a car. C. <snip> > Yes, I'm quite sure that if you had parked your butt in his place and blared > Britney Spears, the Dixie Chicks or Clay Aiken thru the sound system that the > BMW representative would have practically gifted you a car. > > C. Y,know, you kind of blasted that kid for commenting on essentially some of the same things I saw. Every display, except the ultra-exotics which were roped off, had cars full of teenagers yelling, goofing off, and cranking rap on the stereo. Part of me saw some youthful exuberance, yes, but the rest of me wanted to angrily part the crowd and start throwing the little f.cks off the merchandise. Maybe it's just a tough time to be a kid, what with all the judgemental psychos standing nearby, notebook in mind. MC <<Y,know, you kind of blasted that kid for commenting on essentially some of the same things I saw.>> Your comments weren't as blatantly racist. When they are, I call you on them. Lamenting the general decline of humanity is one thing. Declaring one sector as superior based on locale or musical preference is ludicrous. <<Every display, except the ultra-exotics which were roped off, had cars full of teenagers yelling, goofing off, and cranking rap on the stereo. Part of me saw some youthful exuberance, yes, but the rest of me wanted to angrily part the crowd and start throwing the little f.cks off>> As EuroPaul pointed out, examining the merchandise up close and personal is what the Auto Show is all about. If the auto makers didn't want people to explore, then they wouldn't let them. As usual, I found the adults to be as offensive as the kids, with no excuses available to them like *youthful exuberance*. I didn't see any kids scrambling up on roped off platforms or rubbing dirt into a car's paint or juggling a beer and bag of chips in one hand while leaning into a show vehicle to rub their greasy hands on the leather seats. Not that I can't imagine teenagers doing such things, it's just that what I saw most of the kids doing was exploring the vehicles just like they would if one of their friends showed up in their driveway with a new ride. They weren't disrespectful, they were just enthusiastic. OTOH, the adults treated the cars like they were worthless. They didn't care if they scratched them or spilled nacho sauce onto the new carpet. I don't think they treat their own property like that, but since it was someone else's, they didn't give a rat's fuzzy butt what happened to it. <<Maybe it's just a tough time to be a kid>> It always is. C. > <<Y,know, you kind of blasted that kid for commenting on essentially some of > the same things I saw.>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > like that, but since it was someone else's, they didn't give a rat's fuzzy butt > what happened to it. I appreciate enthusiasm whatever the form. But I wish people were just more courteous sometimes, or just more self-aware, or something. I try to make it to the Florida Int'l Auto Show every year, and we generally go as a family. My daughter is in a wheelchair, and it seems like I spend half my time just trying to keep people from tripping over her, falling on her, and god help us getting through crowds sometimes. Of course, it's not reserved to the car show. Also happens at pretty much any public event. SignatureMike Hanson -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.scaleautosport.com <<My daughter is in a wheelchair, and it seems like I spend half my time just trying to keep people from tripping over her, falling on her, and god help us getting through crowds sometimes. Of course, it's not reserved to the car show. Also happens at pretty much any public event.>> Most people are oblivious to anyone shorter than they are, regardless of physical ability. My own experience has led me to have much sympathy for kids in general. I've learned that nobody ever looks down when they are in a crowded room and little kids get trampled on a regular basis. I'm surprised that we don't hear about more ER visits. I try to maintain my own civility, but if I have to, I'll hurt someone with my wheelchair. Funny thing is, if I smack into somebody with my chair, they are most likely to apologize to me. <eg> C. :::who can easily clear a path thru a crowd::: ><<Y,know, you kind of blasted that kid for commenting on essentially some of >the same things I saw.>> > >Your comments weren't as blatantly racist. When they are, I call you on them. >Lamenting the general decline of humanity is one thing. Declaring one sector as >superior based on locale or musical preference is ludicrous. I'm fairly certain music based on a culture exalting murder and rape is evidence of a specific decline of humanity. <<I'm fairly certain music based on a culture exalting murder and rape is evidence of a specific decline of humanity.>> What about movies and cinema that exalt murder, mayhem and not just rape, but a general disregard for the value of women and minorities? Careful where you toss that stone. Too many glass houses around here. C. ><<I'm fairly certain music based on a culture exalting murder and rape is >evidence of a specific decline of humanity.>> > >What about movies and cinema that exalt murder, mayhem and not just rape, but a >general disregard for the value of women and minorities? Careful where you toss >that stone. Too many glass houses around here. I'm fairly certain music, movies, Power Point presentations or comic books based on a culture exalting murder and rape is evidence of a specific decline of humanity... ...I don't care *what* "Spike Puff Diddy Cent" sh.ts out: It's all misogynistic, misanthropic, exploitative, least common-denominator crap. f.ck the ignorant little bastards: Long live the harpsichord, I say! <<What about movies and cinema that exalt murder, mayhem and not just rape, but a general disregard for the value of women and minorities? Careful where you toss that stone. Too many glass houses around here. >> C. <<I'm fairly certain music, movies, Power Point presentations or comic books based on a culture exalting murder and rape is evidence of a specific decline of humanity... ...I don't care *what* "Spike Puff Diddy Cent" sh.ts out: It's all misogynistic, misanthropic, exploitative, least common-denominator crap.>> Dean's Support I was actually referring to your common, everyday, Hollywood blockbuster or TV fare. Our entire culture exalts violence and degrades women. If you're going to go pointing fingers, start with your side of the race line. C. > Yes, I'm quite sure that if you had parked your butt in his place and blared > Britney Spears, the Dixie Chicks or Clay Aiken thru the sound system that the > BMW representative would have practically gifted you a car. <snigger> Paul SignatureHttp://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk > The aftermarket section had all kinds of outrageousness, mostly > involving spinning chrome rims the size of trash can lids. Just when you thought people's taste in bolt-ons couldn't get any lower.... We saw a load of these in Nashville. The first time you see them they are quite fascinating (especially if they are counter rotating slowly as the vehicle to which they are fitted moves off at any speed). > All in all, an enjoyable experience but - not wishing to sound elitist - > marred by the crush of common, clueless, self-absorbed breeder clones > this country (and the world) is overstuffed with. "Self-absorbed breeder clones"? Jeez... Your love for humanity knows no bounds. > The coming Armaggeddon may well incinerate a lot of beautiful cars but > in terms of population control and the extinction of an overrated and > underachieving species it will be the smart move. Call me a > misanthrope, perhaps even a sociopath, but after spending a night > mingling with the great unwashed of the Southern California I wish I > could help throw that switch. I'm tempted to make my usual poor joke about you needing to take more of the blue pills, but I think it's getting beyond that. FFS, CHILL OUT, MIKEY! Paul SignatureHttp://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk <<"Self-absorbed breeder clones"? Jeez... Your love for humanity knows no bounds.>> I'm telling you, it's all summed up in *PAI*. C. > ... the great unwashed of the Southern California ... It never rains in California ... ;^) Sounds like Miss Ann Thoroeau, Pissed -- Speaker for the D00d "I love mankind. It's people I can't stand" - Linus, "Peanuts" <<Saw the 2005 Mustang, in fastback and GT configuration. I like it.>> I need to get me one o'those! <<And there was the Cadillac Sixteen, along with a black CTS-V and two XLRs with great paint jobs. The CTS-V really is a knockout, though in this case they could have done without the gangsta-gangsta high-polish chrome billeted grille.>> I'm not looking forward to getting my butt kicked this season by something that looks like a chromed, government issue, armored car. <<over at the Morgan display, there was a very nice gentleman with a ponytail and a junior handlebar mustache, who campaigns a yellow Morgan Aero 8 in a racing series I didn't catch the name of, standing next to Tiger's dad's World Challenge race car. He briefed me on the power upgrades coming for the Tiger Racing Aero 8 which I hope will put it into a position where SPEED might let us have an extended look at it once in while.>> As long as dad stays behind me, he can have all the *power upgrades* that he wants. BTW, that's the *Aero Racing, USA* Morgan. Aero Racing is a division of Tiger Racing. <<Finally, Ferrari didn't have an Enzo. I asked the floor guy why, just out of curiousity, and he said, "There's no need to show it. We're done making them, they're all sold, and we don't have any more.">> The man has a point. Why sell what's already sold? OTOH, there are still Morgans available for sale. <g> << I decided not to ask him why every road car in their display had Scuderia shields on it.>> One decision made by Luca that I will never agree with. <<Except for the 612 Scaglietti, in a kind of bold blue >> You mean Ford Sonic Blue? I hate it. <<All in all, an enjoyable experience>> After spending an evening looking over the current crop of new cars, all I wanted to do was go home and hug my '95 GT. She's fully paid for, is practically worthless to anyone but me and I can't imagine trading her for any one of those lumps of sheet metal and plastic moulding. Except, perhaps, for the 2005 Mustang. <<The coming Armaggeddon may well incinerate a lot of beautiful cars but in terms of population control and the extinction of an overrated and underachieving species it will be the smart move.>> I tend to agree with you. C. > <<Saw the 2005 Mustang, in fastback and GT configuration. I like it.>> > > I need to get me one o'those! I really like the new GT. Looking forward to seeing it in person. Like it a LOT more than the new 'vette. > <<And there was the Cadillac Sixteen, along with a black CTS-V and two XLRs > with great paint jobs. The CTS-V really is a knockout, though in this case > I'm not looking forward to getting my butt kicked this season by something that > looks like a chromed, government issue, armored car. Oh yeah, the new CTS-V race car looks just AWESOME. Very macho, aggressive. http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=520 > <<Except for the 612 Scaglietti, in a kind of bold blue >> > > You mean Ford Sonic Blue? I hate it. Hey! My 'stang looks GREAT in Sonic Blue! MH www.scaleautosport.com <<Oh yeah, the new CTS-V race car looks just AWESOME. Very macho, aggressive.>> Like I said, I think it looks like a government issue, armored car. It's a big, shiny brick. It's as *macho* as an H2. And they are both just Chevys under the skin. The World Challenge CTS-V will bear little resemblence to the street car though. http://bbs.sccaproracing.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003050.html <<Hey! My 'stang looks GREAT in Sonic Blue!>> And rightly so! A Ferrari looks silly in a Ford colour though. C. > <<Oh yeah, the new CTS-V race car looks just AWESOME. Very macho, > aggressive.>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://bbs.sccaproracing.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003050.html Read through some of the forum. One thing I didn't see mentioned - anybody thought that perhaps the ultimate goal of GM is to get the Caddy into the DTM series in Europe, to improve their image/sales over there? When I first saw the car I jumped to that conclusion right off. SignatureMike Hanson -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.scaleautosport.com <<Read through some of the forum.>> One of the Cadillac threads was removed by SCCA. They didn't think it was appropriate for people to be debating the rules in a public forum. <<One thing I didn't see mentioned - anybody thought that perhaps the ultimate goal of GM is to get the Caddy into the DTM series in Europe, to improve their image/sales over there? When I first saw the car I jumped to that conclusion right off.>> I don't know how many cars GM sells in Europe or how many they want to sell. I've heard no mention of the DTM, but there's been plenty of talk of Cadillac entering ALMS and going to Le Mans. C. ><<Oh yeah, the new CTS-V race car looks just AWESOME. Very macho, >aggressive.>> > >Like I said, I think it looks like a government issue, armored car. It's a big, >shiny brick. It's as *macho* as an H2. And yet BMW's "flame front" designs are sexy... > And they are both just Chevys under the skin. ...References, please. >The World Challenge CTS-V will bear little resemblence to the street car >though. >http://bbs.sccaproracing.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003050.html Unlike every other "silhouette" formula? <<And yet BMW's "flame front" designs are sexy...>> I haven't a clue what you're referring to. I think that up until this year, BMWs have gotten better and better looking. Some of the 2004 and 2005 models have morphed into something Chrysler would be proud of though. <<...References, please.>> What *references* do you need? Are you unaware of the fact that the new Caddy utilizes multiple components from the Corvette, the engine being the most obvious, and that the H2 shares the Suburban platform? It's not some big secret. Read any review of these cars. <<Unlike every other "silhouette" formula?>> Quite. The World Challenge Caddy isn't just tweaked mechanically, the body work is totally different from the street car. It's been chopped, dropped and stretched. That *silhouette* is one thing that so many competitors have a problem with. Not to mention the dog box they're being allowed to start the season with and the motor modifications they're running which will give them some 50 hp more than the Vette guys have. C. ><<And yet BMW's "flame front" designs are sexy...>> >I haven't a clue what you're referring to. I think that up until this year, >BMWs have gotten better and better looking. Some of the 2004 and 2005 models >have morphed into something Chrysler would be proud of though. Ah... The vaunted female memory. ><<...References, please.>> >What *references* do you need? Are you unaware of the fact that the new Caddy >utilizes multiple components from the Corvette, Since it's all just GM anyway, what could possibly be your point or implication; since the Cadillac XLR cabriolet was released first it's more correct to say the C6 uses Caddy components; as far I can find, the CTS-V merely uses the same archaic GM small block as the Vette, a GM practice dating back to the Middle Ages. > the engine being the most obvious, "Obviously"... What other "multiple components" do they share? >and that the H2 shares the Suburban platform? It's not some big >secret. Read any review of these cars. _Which_ cars? When you say "the new Caddy utilizes multiple components from the Corvette" do you mean the CTS-V, or the XLR, the latter which does _actually_ share most of its chassis and running gear with the C6? ...And when did SUVs, _especially_ short bus-sized SUVs, become cars in the first place? ><<Unlike every other "silhouette" formula?>> > >Quite. The World Challenge Caddy isn't just tweaked mechanically, the body work >is totally different from the street car. It's been chopped, dropped and >stretched. Unlike the competitions' designs? >That *silhouette* is one thing that so many competitors have a >problem with. Not to mention the dog box they're being allowed to start the >season with The problem there being? >and the motor modifications they're running which will give them >some 50 hp more than the Vette guys have. Which the " 'Vette guys" are prevented from using, why? ...And yet somehow Porsche gets a pass every time. > ><<And yet BMW's "flame front" designs are sexy...>> > _Which_ cars? When you say "the new Caddy utilizes multiple > components from the Corvette" do you mean the CTS-V, or the XLR, the > latter which does _actually_ share most of its chassis and running > gear with the C6? ...And when did SUVs, _especially_ short bus-sized > SUVs, become cars in the first place? Well, we were specifically discussing the new Caddy race car - the CTS-V(R). It basically has the LS1 Corvette engine sitting in it, with mods to the intake and such - it actually puts out *more* HP that the C5R ran in SCCA. As far as the C6 - it shares the chassis with the XLR, but not the powertrain. The XLR has the OHC Northstar V8. The 'vette still has the trusty Chevy OHV 5 litre. Big difference there. >>Quite. The World Challenge Caddy isn't just tweaked mechanically, the body work >>is totally different from the street car. It's been chopped, dropped and >>stretched. >Unlike the competitions' designs? Well, yes, actually. The debate seems to be that it appears that SCCA has given in to a lot of pressure from GM on that car. It does appear to have been chopped a bit, which is not really in keeping with the rules. Audi and BMW were not allowed to do that previously - thus the controversy. I've heard (through others) that GM has said that they didn't change the lines of the car, but if you compare it to the street version of the CTS-V there does appear to be some differences, some would say pretty obviously chopped down. SignatureMike Hanson -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.scaleautosport.com <<Since it's all just GM anyway, what could possibly be your point or implication>> Oh, Blessed Irony... So Caddy and Corvette are *all just GM*, but you're having a conniption over Ferrari using Enzo bits to build a racing Maserati? << ...And when did SUVs, _especially_ short bus-sized SUVs, become cars in the first place?>> Oh, that's terribly relevant. Did you really not understand what I meant or are you just looking for a nit to pick? <<The World Challenge Caddy isn't just tweaked mechanically, the body work is totally different from the street car. It's been chopped, dropped and stretched.>> C. <<Unlike the competitions' designs?>> Dean's Supporter Pay attention. Yes, the new Caddy that is being brought to World Challenge looks to be radically modified in ways that have not been allowed for any other car. That's the beef that many competitors have right now. I'm not one of them. Not yet anyway. <g> <<The problem there being?>> The problem being that the Corvettes aren't allowed to use that dog box AND the Caddy is lighter than the Corvette. Usually, a gearbox like that is permitted, there are weight restrictions. <<and the motor modifications they're running which will give them >some 50 hp more than the Vette guys have. >> C. <<Which the " 'Vette guys" are prevented from using, why?>> Dean's Supporter None of the Vette guys are allowed to use the motor mods that are being permitted for the Caddy. Why? Ask SCCA. Everyone else is. <<...And yet somehow Porsche gets a pass every time.>> Obviously you don't follow World Challenge or you'd know what a joke that is. Aside from it being an obvious joke in a Ferrari forum. The top teams aren't even running Porches anymore. 3-R, the only team that managed to get a Porch on the podium last year, has dropped theirs and is bringing a Viper Comp Coupe instead, because they don't think the Porches stand a chance this year. C. BTW, the Mustang is a Ford Fairmont, not a Fairlane as I stated in a previous post. ><<Since it's all just GM anyway, what could possibly be your point or >implication>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So Caddy and Corvette are *all just GM*, but you're having a conniption over >Ferrari using Enzo bits to build a racing Maserati? What aspect of the intertwined nature of GM's subsidiaries versus the distinct identity of the components of Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati escape you? >Obviously you don't follow World Challenge or you'd know what a joke that is. Guilty as charged. >Aside from it being an obvious joke in a Ferrari forum. The top teams aren't >even running Porches anymore. 3-R, the only team that managed to get a Porch on >the podium last year, has dropped theirs and is bringing a Viper Comp Coupe >instead, because they don't think the Porches stand a chance this year. ...Then it's the only class in history that wasn't tweaked to Stuttgart's advantage >BTW, the Mustang is a Ford Fairmont, not a Fairlane as I stated in a previous >post. LOFL <<...Then it's the only class in history that wasn't tweaked to Stuttgart's advantage>> SCCA has always done a great job of equalizing cars in the past. We'll see what happens with the Cadillac this year. C. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.