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Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / February 2004Ferrari in FIA
I was watching the FIA in Review 2003 this morning. Still sleepy, I wasn't quite catching the model of Ferrari that was running in the main Sportscars (Prototypes/whatever) category. Is that still the 333SP? I did some checking on teams and that's what they appear to be ... just curious, because it seems like the new Maserati FIA car would definitely be designed for the sportscar/proto category - which would then NOT take any potential victories away from the 575 GTC (except for overalls, of course). That would seem to be a very good strategy for Ferrari/Maserati. > I was watching the FIA in Review 2003 this morning. Still sleepy, I > wasn't quite catching the model of Ferrari that was running in the main [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > any potential victories away from the 575 GTC (except for overalls, of > course). That would seem to be a very good strategy for Ferrari/Maserati. Anybody have knowledge of or a comment on this? I was really curious about this (but not really feeling like doing the research). Lazy MC >> I was watching the FIA in Review 2003 this morning. Haven't seen it. >> Still sleepy, I >> wasn't quite catching the model of Ferrari that was running in the main >> Sportscars (Prototypes/whatever) category. Is that still the 333SP? Ferrari have never replaced/superceded the 333SP, so it would have to be. >> I >> did some checking on teams and that's what they appear to be ... just >> curious, because it seems like the new Maserati FIA car would definitely >> be designed for the sportscar/proto category - which would then NOT take >> any potential victories away from the 575 GTC (except for overalls, of >> course). That would seem to be a very good strategy for Ferrari/Maserati. Except; they are reported to have homologated, or are preparing to, the "Maserati Bindo" for the GT class, where it will meat and certainly defeat the 575 GTC. If it does not easily defeat the 575 it will be an obvious blow against Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati. Even if successful: It mocks Maserati and devalues Ferrari. <<Even if successful: It mocks Maserati and devalues Ferrari.>> You have yet to expand on this. You've made the assertion, now what do you back it up with? C. > <<Even if successful: It mocks Maserati and devalues Ferrari.>> > > You have yet to expand on this. You've made the assertion, now what do you back > it up with? > > C. Well, I'm not going to speak for Mark, but I think in a way he's right - I mean, you have a car that is obviously derived from the Enzo, with full Ferrari mechanicals, running as a Maserati. Now if it runs DP class (I don't know what FIA calls that class - Prototype/Sportscars/whatever) and fares well, everybody looks good. But if it runs GT class, and it smokes the 575 GTC, what has that accomplished? It sparks interest in what, the tiny shred of modern-day Maserati enthusiasts that are out there - at the expense of the entire Ferrari road racing fan base, who will be shaking the heads and wondering where Ferrari management's loyalties are, or if nothing just exactly what the f.ck Ferrari is up to. Not to mention privateer 575 and 550 teams, and probably some of the Ferrari factory 575GTC team members, who I would expect to feel more than a little bit flamed. Maybe I don't understand enough about the "class" differences and titles in FIA; I've tried to get some info but for some reason failed miserably. This would be different if we were discussing Lambo's FIA effort - different car, different company, different mechanicals, good opportunity for a nice little rivalry. But the "stepchild" label fits Maserati too well at this point, and I have to agree that this whole FIA effort is making Ferrari look kind of stupid, at best (IMO, of course). MC MC betterman@pj.com wrote... >Not to mention privateer 575 >and 550 teams, and probably some of the Ferrari factory 575GTC team >members, who I would expect to feel more than a little bit flamed. The Prodrive folks are worried. From Autosport last week.. "The Maserati's pace was described as 'very worrying' by Prodrive Chief Engineer George Howard-Chappell." "This bears out our fears that this car threatens to render the existing production based cars running in the FIA GT series uncompetitive. We have to trust that the FIA will stick by its assurances to balance the performance of the different types of car." >Maybe I don't understand enough about the "class" differences and titles >in FIA; I've tried to get some info but for some reason failed miserably. That's ok. Nobody understands the FIA. >This would be different if we were discussing Lambo's FIA effort - >different car, different company, different mechanicals, good >opportunity for a nice little rivalry. But the "stepchild" label fits >Maserati too well at this point, and I have to agree that this whole FIA >effort is making Ferrari look kind of stupid, at best (IMO, of course). If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve Maserati brand even at the expense of Ferrari. Maserati was purchased to give Ferrari SpA growth potential outside the 4300+ constructed at Maranello. It isn't delivering and sales have shrunk in the two critical markets of Germany and the US in 2003. The 3200 series has not delivered. The GT and Spyder alone were supposed to achieve 7000-8000 units and have stalled at 2400 and the Quattroporte and Kubang aren't going to change things. Maserati's been a drag on the group financial performance and the break even forecast for the venture has been pushed back from 2004 to 2006. Luca and the bankers are worried and the MCC is a panic attempt to give the Maserati brand a boost. At the end Ferrari will find out what the Orsi family, Citroen, De Tomaso and the Fiat group already know, Maserati is not now and is unlikely ever to be a viable brand. T308 > The Prodrive folks are worried. From Autosport last week.. > > "The Maserati's pace was described as 'very worrying' by Prodrive Chief > Engineer George Howard-Chappell." I thought Prodrive was already out, particularly when it came to the 575GTC ... > We have to > trust that the FIA will stick by its assurances to balance the performance of > the different types of car. Boy, and I thought software vendors were obtuse ... MC >MC betterman@pj.com wrote... >>Not to mention privateer 575 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >trust that the FIA will stick by its assurances to balance the performance of >the different types of car." And when the MCC is slammed with intake restrictors the equivalent of bendy soda straws, and is regularly beaten by Porsche 911s, as per FIA fiat, where will Ferrari be then? >>Maybe I don't understand enough about the "class" differences and titles >>in FIA; I've tried to get some info but for some reason failed miserably. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >has been pushed back from 2004 to 2006. Luca and the bankers are worried and >the MCC is a panic attempt to give the Maserati brand a boost. Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like every other fat-assed dimwit's SUV the Kubang should be driven off a pier and thought of no more. >At the end Ferrari will find out what the Orsi family, Citroen, De Tomaso and >the Fiat group already know, Maserati is not now and is unlikely ever to be a >viable brand. As lovely as they are, the V-8 Coupe/Spider is WAY overdue for a re-enginering/re-design and they should be making a straight-six coupe to compete with the M3 and Porsche Boxster. > Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte > delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like every > other fat-assed dimwit's SUV the Kubang should be driven off a pier and > thought of no more. What? A statement you make I agre with? Whose meds need upping now man - yours or mine? Confusedly, Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs ======================================================================== >> Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte >> delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like every [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Confusedly, Precious... simply precious... >>>Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte >>>delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like every [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Precious... simply precious... Yes, Howard - your effect on people seems to ebb and flow. To be liquid is to be free. .... Were we talking about meds? MC >>>>Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte >>>>delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like every [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Yes, Howard - your effect on people seems to ebb and flow. It's my experience that all depends on whether my comments reflect or confront their prejudices. >To be liquid is to be free. ...Mine's a Sapphire Martini, bone dry, two olives. <<It's my experience that all depends on whether my comments reflect or confront their prejudices.>> Oh, piffle. How people respond to you depends on whether you are more right or more wrong on the given topic. You're posting to a NG, not *confronting* people in group therapy. C. >>Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte >>delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like every [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs > ======================================================================== I looked at some pictures of that Kubang and yeeks - that thing is fugly. The SUV train wreck needs to end with the Cayenne, and yet we know that's not going to happen. Now Bimmer comes out with that pint-size spawn of the X5, and I also noticed Ford has not yet discontinued production on the Explosion ... oops, I mean Excursion. I thought that was supposed to happen last year. GM, meanwhile, has eleven new Hummer models coming, from the H2 all the to the H15 - all with 27" Sprewells, a Sleep Number bed and a 24K gold commode, satellite telecommunications, a Michelle Pfeiffer vanity mirror featuring the Prescriptives line of luxury organic cosmetics, and Pioneer DVD/satellite TV with Tivo. The tit will be offered as long as the rich rube continues to suckle. MC > The tit will be offered as long as the rich rube continues to suckle. Superb. Simply superb. Ciao Zak -- ======================================================================== http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs ======================================================================== "Anyone but Bush, 2004" wrote.... >Panic should not be an option. It will be nice if the Quattroporte >delivers on its promise, hopefully lifting the two-doors, and like >every other fat-assed dimwit's SUV the Kubang should be driven off a >pier and thought of no more. As much as I'd like to see the Q work, I just can't imagine it beating the Panzerwagons at their own game. >>At the end Ferrari will find out what the Orsi family, Citroen, De Tomaso >and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >re-enginering/re-design and they should be making a straight-six coupe >to compete with the M3 and Porsche Boxster. The scary thing is that Luca actually believed that the Coupe/Spider was enough of a foundation for the entire brand. See the following... http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews &loc_code=index&content_code=01692178 T308 >growth potential outside the 4300+ constructed at Maranello. It isn't >delivering and sales have shrunk in the two critical markets of Germany and the >US in 2003. The 3200 series has not delivered. The GT and Spyder alone were >supposed to achieve 7000-8000 units and have stalled at 2400 and the >Quattroporte and Kubang aren't going to change things. Maserati's been a drag Of course Maserati isn't deliverying sales. For $!00kUS+, why would anyone buy one when you can have any number of Ferraris for less or just a bit more money? I was surprised to see the price tag when the cars were introduced...they needed to target the $50-$75k market where BMW and Mercedes lives. Phil <<If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve Maserati brand even at the expense of Ferrari.>> But what *expense*? Do you think that anyone who wants a Ferrari is going to decide against buying one just because of this Maserati race car? C. ><<If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve Maserati brand >even at the expense of Ferrari.>> > >But what *expense*? Do you think that anyone who wants a Ferrari is going to >decide against buying one just because of this Maserati race car? Yes. > ><<If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve Maserati brand > >even at the expense of Ferrari.>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes. That's nuts (with the greatest respect!). You either "get" Ferrari and you want to own one or you don't. Besides, AFAIK right now they can sell more cars than they can make anyway.... I. >> ><<If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve Maserati brand >> >even at the expense of Ferrari.>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >want to own one or you don't. Besides, AFAIK right now they can sell more >cars than they can make anyway.... I submit that there are indeed significant numbers of owners who do not "get" Ferrari, who merely can afford "the best", and whose determination of that quality will be colored by the Maserati "Bindo". YMMV. > I submit that there are indeed significant numbers of owners who do > not "get" Ferrari, who merely can afford "the best", and whose > determination of that quality will be colored by the Maserati "Bindo". Well, once again I have to agree with Mark - but, does it matter? Firstly, as Iaiaiaiaiaian says, Ferrari sell every car that they choose to make, and I doubt that will be changed by the ...umm... 'cross pollination with Maserati. Secondly, we all know that some (many?) people buy Ferraris purely to have the badge (which is good for people like me, because those people tend to get rid of the car fairly soon, moving it 'down the market' towards people like me who can't afford as new one) and I don't give a toss (English expression) if a few of them get put off. -Paul P.S. At least one person here might be amused that my spill-chucker suggests "Macerate" for "Maserati". >> I submit that there are indeed significant numbers of owners who do >> not "get" Ferrari, who merely can afford "the best", and whose >> determination of that quality will be colored by the Maserati "Bindo". > >Well, once again I have to agree with Mark - but, does it matter? 1) The "Bindo" works its "magic"... 2) The F1 team suffers the inevitable cyclic decline 3) Sales plummet with further excitement in the Middle East (it has happened before) 4) Ferrari is sold to Volkswagen as FIAT Holding slips beneath the waves 5) The new 2011 Ferrari Adolf, mit 5cyl turbo diesel, is announced at the 2009 Nuremberg Rally. >Firstly, as Iaiaiaiaiaian says, Ferrari sell every car that they choose >to make, and I doubt that will be changed by the ...umm... 'cross [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >towards people like me who can't afford as new one) and I don't give >a toss (English expression) if a few of them get put off. <<I submit that there are indeed significant numbers of owners who do not "get" Ferrari, who merely can afford "the best", and whose determination of that quality will be colored by the Maserati "Bindo".>> PAI and who gives a rat's fuzzy butt about that lot anyway? It's sad how many losers with more dollars than sense own Ferraris as it is. If this Maserati keeps them from buying a car with the Prancing Horse on the grill, then so be it! C. TigerRace1 wrote... >It's sad how many >losers with more dollars than sense own Ferraris as it is. If this Maserati >keeps them from buying a car with the Prancing Horse on the grill, then so be >it! Yes it is sad, and if/when these people become the identity that Ferrari is associated with the brand will be on its way down. I believe that Ferrari was headed this way in the late 1980s when huge numbers of buyers were either speculators or the "gold chain" crowd that only wanted the car as an investment or status symbol rather than for performance and technical superiority. That type of customer isn't sustainable. Their interest is superficial and will fade when something else comes along. The customers that have driven (literally) the success of the company in the past decade are the core of true enthusiasts, those that enjoy and use the cars. Ferrari has an amazing 60% repurchase by existing customers. If they lost this core user they would find great difficulty maintaining their current sales success. The days of the early 1990s with unsold inventory would return and the company would be in dire straits indeed. T308 TigerRace1 made me put on my Brand Management hat when she wrote the following... >But what *expense*? Do you think that anyone who wants a Ferrari is going to >decide against buying one just because of this Maserati race car? I believe it shows that the principle of brand purity at Ferrari has been sacrificed in favor of Maserati. Do I believe that fewer Enzos will be sold as a result? No, they are already all spoken for. Do I believe that the value of Enzos to their owners and the value of the Ferrari brand will be affected? Yes. The Ferrari brand is given shape by the cars but the ultimate definition of the brand is in the emotions of current and future customers. The emotional component flows from the history, technological superiority and the exclusivity of Ferrari. The MCC has made the Enzo (the brand flagship) more common, more accessible, and ultimately, less aspiration because it has been sold down to the unquestionably lesser Maserati brand. 399 Ferrari Enzos are scheduled. Maserati must build 100 units to homologate the MCC. These ersatz-Enzos diminish the 399 genuine articles and the brand they represent. That is where the "expense" will be realized. T308 <<Do I believe that the value of Enzos to their owners and the value of the Ferrari brand will be affected? Yes. >> Why? In what way? The Enzo is the Enzo. If anything, if this Maserati race does well, I would think that it would only make the Enzo look better. <<The MCC has made the Enzo (the brand flagship) more common, more accessible, and ultimately, less aspiration because it has been sold down to the unquestionably lesser Maserati brand.>> So the resale market of the Enzo will be less than it could be? I don't see that happening and I don't see it as being as detrimental as you imply. Maserati is still head and shoulders above what most people can ever hope to attain and a Maserati/Ferrari race car is beyond the reach of all but a very few. <<399 Ferrari Enzos are scheduled. Maserati must build 100 units to homologate the MCC. These ersatz-Enzos diminish the 399 genuine articles and the brand they represent. That is where the "expense" will be realized. >> Again, how do they *diminish* the Enzo? They are a done deal. The only way that I can see the Maserati race car having that sort of effect is if it gets its butt kicked on the track. If it does well, how does that not enhance the brand? C. > If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve Maserati brand > even at the expense of Ferrari. Maserati doesn't need any help from Ferrari to create a brand image; it stands on its own, and always has. > Maserati was purchased to give Ferrari SpA > growth potential outside the 4300+ constructed at Maranello. It isn't > delivering and sales have shrunk in the two critical markets of Germany and the > US in 2003. The 3200 series has not delivered. The GT and Spyder alone were > supposed to achieve 7000-8000 units and have stalled at 2400 and the > Quattroporte and Kubang aren't going to change things. US sales of the Coupe and Spyder have increased in the USA in 2003 from 2002. Maserati is predicting that with the new Quattroporte, sales will increase from 3000 to 5000 this year. It will take time for Maserati to go from a relatively low volume manufacturer to a higher volume manufacturer who competes more directly against Mercedes and BMW. Yuor predictions are premature. BTW, the "3200 series" is no longer made, and was never sold in the USA. And there was no "series", it was just one model. > Maserati's been a drag > on the group financial performance and the break even forecast for the venture > has been pushed back from 2004 to 2006. Wrong, there was never any forecast to become profitable in 2004. > Luca and the bankers are worried and > the MCC is a panic attempt to give the Maserati brand a boost. That's pure speculation. I think you are worried that Maserati's new race car will outshine Ferrari's attempts in this arena. And you should be. > At the end Ferrari will find out what the Orsi family, Citroen, De Tomaso and > the Fiat group already know, Maserati is not now and is unlikely ever to be a > viable brand. Maserati has been around for the past 90 years. What were you saying about viability? >> If anything I think it shows Maranello is desperate to improve >> Maserati brand [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Maserati has been around for the past 90 years. What > were you saying about viability? Ummmm .... HELLO. Ferrari OWNS Maserati. OWNS them. This is BAD for Ferrari and what it is to Maserati is not at issue here. You're talking as if this was the glory years, 1956 or whatever. Those days are gone. This is a dumb move for Ferrari, and if Maserati was as successful as you intimate then perhaps they should be out on their own. MC <<Maserati doesn't need any help from Ferrari to create a brand image; it stands on its own>> Maserati's *image* of the past few yrs has been of an obsolete brand. Ferrari is attempting to remedy that. << I think you are worried that Maserati's new race car will outshine Ferrari's attempts in this arena. And you should be.>> I think you're missing the point. C. Proud Yankee wrote.... >Maserati doesn't need any help from Ferrari to create a brand >image; it stands on its own, and always has. As what? What relevence is the Maserati brand in today's marketplace? I don't believe that brand means anything other than a glorious past. >US sales of the Coupe and Spyder have >increased in the USA in 2003 from 2002. >Maserati is predicting that with the new >Quattroporte, sales will increase from >3000 to 5000 this year. I checked my quote from an interview with Luca which translated as "Maserati's sales have shrunk in the two critical markets of Germany and the US in 2003." After consulting with my favorite Italian translator the actual quote was "Maserati's category sales have shrunk in the two critical markets of Germany and the US in 2003." I don't know if he meant Maserati units or the size of the entire category. I'll post the figures when I get the annual report. >It will take time for Maserati to go from a relatively low volume manufacturer to a higher volume manufacturer who competes more directly against Mercedes and BMW. >Yuor predictions are premature. That's my view. Let's talk again in two years when the break even for 2006 is either realized or readjusted into the future. >BTW, the "3200 series" is no longer made, and was never sold in the USA. And there was no "series", it was just one >model. Yes, but it is the family upon with the brand was relaunched and is the platform that started with the 3200 and has evolved into current Coupe and Spider with revisions. >Wrong, there was never any forecast to become profitable >in 2004. That's not what the Luca, the press and the Managing Directors have said.... Snipped From Business Week March 13, 1999 - Monica Larner and Karen Miller DOUBLE TROUBLE. As if that weren't enough, in 1998, di Montezemolo acquired Maserati, an even more troubled Italian auto company that had been losing money for 15 years. He spent $75 million to refurbish its plant and introduce the new 3200 GT coupe last November. And he established a new dealer network featuring both Ferraris and the far more affordable Maserati models. Maserati is on track to sell 2,000 of its 3200 GTs, which go for $88,000, in 1999. Di Montezemolo predicts that the unit will break even by the end of this year. From Hamberg Zeit May 2003 (translated) Hamburg (ots) - "This year we will still have losses, also because of the difficult World Situation, we still believe the sales figures will increase" said the boss of Ferrari- Maserati Group, Luca di Montezemolo. It is however "optimistic that we will achieve our goals". Maserati is planned the break even in the year 2004; by the middle of the decade Montezemolo wants to increase Maserati production on up to 10.000 cars in the year. In the past year Maserati built 3300 cars. Luca Ciferri - Automotive News Europe 18th March 2002: Ferrari to be floated on the stockmarket? With significant investment already being ploughed into Maserati, it is expected that 3,500 cars will be sold in 2002, up from the 1,751 cars sold last year. Looking forward Maserati aim to break even by the end of next year and are targeting annual sales of 6,000 cars by the end of 2004. Recently relaunched in the US, Maserati are expecting a major percentage of sales to come from this market. Sept 28 1998 Automotive News Europe Maserati Ready to Seek Credibility MODENA - By 2004, Fiat wants an annual volume of 6,500 Maseratis and 3,500 Ferraris. The investment is more than 20 percent of sales, said Paolo Marinsek, Ferrari's managing director. "Of course this also means it will take time to return to the black," he said. "We plan to break even at Maserati not before 2000 or 2001". Sure looked like a plan to me... >That's pure speculation. I think you are >worried that Maserati's new race car will >outshine Ferrari's attempts >in this arena. And you should be. I'm worried that the people in Maranello are making bad decisions. That's one thing I should be worried about. >Maserati has been around for the past 90 >years. What were you saying about >viability? Just because they've been around for 90 years doesn't mean they're commerically viable. They haven't made money in nearly 20 years. The previous owners I listed all lost money when they owned the company. Maserati was a wonderful thing in the 1930s-1950s. I just don't believe in their present of future. T308 ><<Even if successful: It mocks Maserati and devalues Ferrari.>> > >You have yet to expand on this. You've made the assertion, now what do you back >it up with? Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an Enzo blue, sticking Tridents on it like some CF Mr. Potato Head, painting Maserati on the cam covers, and pretending it has anything to do with being a Maserati, rather than some bargain basement Ferrari; but, cognizant of a time when Maserati were a legitimate racing entity, often enough in the Fifties more than the match of Ferrari on equal terms, I do. And while the idea that Ferrari could sell his race cars to privateers certainly has precedent, they were never before rebadged with some lesser identity. > Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an > Enzo blue, As if Enzo himself would *ever* have pained a Ferrari blue! Oh, the thought of it! > bargain basement Ferrari; Oxymoron. > but, cognizant of a time when Maserati were a legitimate racing > entity, often enough in the Fifties more than the match of Ferrari on > equal terms, I do. And while the idea that Ferrari could sell his > race cars to privateers certainly has precedent, they were never > before rebadged with some lesser identity. Ackshully, Mark, I'm on your side with this one (personally I thought the take over of Maserati was absolutely fine until it started being Ferrari-Maserati) however, there are some precedents. You don't have to look too far back to find a few of Ferrari-engined Lancias, Saubers, etc, and some of this was done (as I understand it) to bend various rules so as to allow Ferrari to run vehicles in events that required 'homologation'. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong ;-) but it does seem to me to be only the latest (granted, the most blatant) in a series of 'dodges'. Paul  SignatureHttp://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk "Paul Duffin" wrote... >As if Enzo himself would *ever* have pained a Ferrari blue! Oh, the thought >of it! Mexico GP 1964 and a World Championship for Surtees in the blue and white of NART. Enzo was capable of doing just about anything when pissed off. T308 (Who thinks it would be cool for the Scuderia to repaint the F1 cars in NART colors for one race this year in honor of the 40th anniversary of that championship.) > >As if Enzo himself would *ever* have pained a Ferrari blue! Oh, the thought > >of it! > > Mexico GP 1964 and a World Championship for Surtees in the blue and white of > NART. Enzo was capable of doing just about anything when pissed off. Pssst! I know - that's what I was referring to. I think there were other occasions, too (but I can't be bothered to look it up right now). Paul "Paul Duffin" wrote... >Pssst! I know - that's what I was referring to Thought you might, but didn't see a smiley face! T308 >> Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an >> Enzo blue, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Ferrari-Maserati) however, there are some precedents. You don't have to look >too far back to find a few of Ferrari-engined Lancias, "Engined"... They did not take a existing Ferrari design and rebadge it Lancia Strato's [sic], the Lancia Thema 8.32 was not a rebadged 328 GT Sedan. FIAT Dinos were not 246 GTs with cloth upholstery and AM-only radios. >Saubers, etc, Again: Despite what the ignorant denizens of rasf1 might claim, the Sauber is only Ferrari powered, it is not last year's Ferrari painted blue. >and >some of this was done (as I understand it) to bend various rules so as to >allow Ferrari to run vehicles in events that required 'homologation'. The V-6 used in the Fiat Dino, and then the Dino 246 GT was to be used in F2 which at the time required 500 units be produced and a production-based design. It only later was used in the Strato's [sic]. >I'm >sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong ;-) but it does seem to me to be only >the latest (granted, the most blatant) in a series of 'dodges'. No dodge at all. >> Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an >> Enzo blue, > >As if Enzo himself would *ever* have pained a Ferrari blue! Oh, the thought of it! Ah... The artful dodge of "skillful" editing and bogus response... >> bargain basement Ferrari; > >Oxymoron. Twice... >> but, cognizant of a time when Maserati were a legitimate racing >> entity, often enough in the Fifties more than the match of Ferrari on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Ferrari-Maserati) however, there are some precedents. You don't have to look >too far back to find a few of Ferrari-engined Lancias, "Engined"... They did not take a existing Ferrari design and rebadge it Lancia Strato's [sic], the Lancia Thema 8.32 was not a rebadged 328 GT Sedan. FIAT Dinos were not 246 GTs with cloth upholstery and AM-only radios. >Saubers, etc, Again: Despite what the ignorant denizens of rasf1 might claim, the Sauber is only Ferrari powered, it is not last year's Ferrari painted blue. >and >some of this was done (as I understand it) to bend various rules so as to >allow Ferrari to run vehicles in events that required 'homologation'. The V-6 used in the Fiat Dino, and then the Dino 246 GT was to be used in F2 which at the time required 500 units be produced and a production-based design. It only later was used in the Strato's [sic]. >I'm >sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong ;-) but it does seem to me to be only >the latest (granted, the most blatant) in a series of 'dodges'. The Dino V-6 was no dodge at all, neither was the 8.32 and the Sauber is a straight commercial deal with mutual benefits. Dumbing down an Enzo is a mutually bad move commercially; Ferrari is diminished and Maserati is emasculated. > And while the idea that Ferrari could sell his > race cars to privateers certainly has precedent, they were never > before rebadged with some lesser identity. Maybe not, but he was quite happy to badge up some Lancias when his cars were crap (!) I. <<Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an Enzo blue>> Oh, *clearly* that's the case from my asking questions up to this point, eh? <<cognizant of a time when Maserati were a legitimate racing entity, often enough in the Fifties more than the match of Ferrari on equal terms, I do.>> Having had the honour of working with a 450S for a number of yrs now, I am well aware of what Maserati was once capable of. Having the current honour of racing a car that is an amalgam of a number of different marques, but that is clearly recognizable as a Mustang, I am more ready to give the Factory the benefit of the doubt in this area. I will wait and see exactly what shows up at the race track, how it performs in action and what effects that will have. I see no need for melodrama at this point. C. > Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an > Enzo blue, sticking Tridents on it like some CF Mr. Potato Head, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > race cars to privateers certainly has precedent, they were never > before rebadged with some lesser identity. Hmm, would painting this Masserati rosso corsa and putting Ferrari emblems on it be a bad kit car then (the '501:st' Enzo ;) ), or maybe just a restoration... Best Wishes Thomas *loking smug believing he's SO smart* >> Clearly you have no problem with Gruppo Ferrari-Maserati painting an >> Enzo blue, sticking Tridents on it like some CF Mr. Potato Head, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Best Wishes >Thomas *loking smug believing he's SO smart* LOFL "BZZZZZT; Please try again." MC wrote.... >I was watching the FIA in Review 2003 this morning. Still sleepy, I >wasn't quite catching the model of Ferrari that was running in the main [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >any potential victories away from the 575 GTC (except for overalls, of >course). That would seem to be a very good strategy for Ferrari/Maserati. The Maser is slated for the FIAGT series and it could indeed be taking wins/points away from the 550 and the 575GTCs. The MCC tested at Fiorano in January turned low 1:12s. The best the 550s have done is 1:13 and change. Prodrive is not amused... T308 |
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