Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / August 2004
Want to Prance
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tech27 - 23 Jul 2004 04:48 GMT I'm looking to add my first Ferrari to my stable, something I could pick up for $50K US or so. The only thing that is holding me back are comments like "okay as long as you mechanic lives with you", or something like that. I hear this SO much! I just want to get a realistic handle on this perception.
For instance, I was warned a long time ago how expensive it would be to fix a BMW. I've had at least one BMW since 1987 up to my current 540 and M5, and while they are not "cheap" to fix, the fact it that I haven't had to fix them that much so the cost of ownership is/was probably cheaper than trying to keep some Big 3 piece of crap on the road.
What can I expect from a Ferrari as indicated? Is it possible to do much maintenance/minor repair oneself? Will I really be looking at repair bills as big as the price of a Ford Focus?
Your candid replies will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Paul Duffin - 23 Jul 2004 09:45 GMT > I'm looking to add my first Ferrari to my stable, something I could > pick up for $50K US or so. The only thing that is holding me back are > comments like "okay as long as you mechanic lives with you", or > something like that. I hear this SO much! I just want to get a > realistic handle on this perception. Hi Tech (Hi-tech!!)
I guess part of the answer depends on how skilled you are as a mechanic, if you can service a Ferrari, you're going to save *some* money, however the real costs are parts, and Ferrari parts prices are... well, hilarious. Basically everything costs about five times what it would for an 'average' car. Of course this varies according to the part in question, but the difficulty is that so many parts must be Ferrari supplied, so you have to pay their prices.
Tightly coupled to this unfortunate fact, is that you're buying an 'old car' and even Ferraris suffer over the years. Now most people who actually own a Ferrari will tell you that they seem to survive better than most cars - however a lot of this can be put down to the fact that most people don't put that many miles on them.
My experience is based on owing an '84 308 GTS, which I have had since 1995 and which gets driven hard (no, I don't mean smoking the tyres at traffic lights - I mean touring extensively up and down the Alps!) - I've had various problems over the years and these include (in ascending order of severity):
Seized callipers (three, over the years) Worn differential Worn rear shaft Synchro failed on third gear Corroded oil cooler (which 'took out' one of the petrol tanks) Rust.
As you can see, most of these are simply 'wear & tear' issues, which you have to expect on a car which is 20 years old.
Bottom line - a typical annual trip to the garage (specialist, but not dealer) costs me ?1,500 - ?2,000 (double that for dollars). BUT that can double if something expensive needs replacing.
You also have to budget for a host of silly little things that nonetheless will cost you big. for example - the other week a side light (running light in the US?) failed. 'That'll be a bulb' I thought - nope. 'Ok, the contact is a bit rusty, I'll clean it' - nope. 'Ok, I'll remove the bumper, take out the light unit and have a look' - turns out to be no more than a broken piece of the plastic mounting for the bulb. I call Ferrari UK, and yes, the have one in stock, *but* the 'part number' covers the plastic mounting, the connectors, a set of screws and the lens! and they'd like ?100 for it.
Shite.
I decide (since I have the bumper off) to take a look at the other unit and yes, its 'on its way out'...
so, that will be TWO units, then. In short, it went from a one dollar light bulb to about $400 in about twenty minutes...
...and THAT is what Ferrari ownership is like.
Check out my web site for the rust story, and other pics
I hope this helps, Phil will be along in a minute to give you more information.
Paul
P.S Its worth every penny!!!!! -- Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
tech27 - 23 Jul 2004 15:23 GMT > Paul > > P.S Its worth every penny!!!!! > -- > Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory) Thanks for the info. I'm fully aware that any 20+ year old car will need more upkeep, so that doesn't surprise me. As for things like rust - thank God you don't have to have "Ferrari Bodyworks" do the repairs, so at least you can shop for the best deals and workmanship.
I'm sure when you said "P.S Its worth every penny!!!!!" you were referring to the ownership experience, not the "light bulb"! (-;
Insane part prices are just that, insane. I guess that given the initial cost of the cars the prices are commensurate, but still annoying. I'm sure that to replace all the parts on a 1982 BMW 3 series would cost the same as buying a new M5. And the same job on a 84 Mondial would be just less than an Enzo.
C'est la vie.
Thomas Andersson - 23 Jul 2004 19:48 GMT > so, that will be TWO units, then. In short, it went from a one > dollar light bulb to about $400 in about twenty minutes... > > ...and THAT is what Ferrari ownership is like. LoL, you should be working in teh Ferrari PR departement ;)
Best Wishes Thomas *Dreaming of ever riding in a Ferrari*
TigerRace1 - 03 Aug 2004 23:45 GMT <<Thomas *Dreaming of ever riding in a Ferrari*>>
Given a choice, might I suggest a ride thru the English countryside? <g>
C. :::back from holiday:::
Paul Duffin - 04 Aug 2004 09:00 GMT > <<Thomas *Dreaming of ever riding in a Ferrari*>> > > Given a choice, might I suggest a ride thru the English countryside? > <g> 'twas was my very great pleasure.
MCPD P.S. Did you notice how the 308 was faster than a certain 328? (tee-hee!)
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
matt borland - 04 Aug 2004 15:15 GMT "Paul Duffin" <paul.duffin@dial.pipex.removethisbit.com> wrote in message
> MCPD > P.S. Did you notice how the 308 was faster than a certain 328? (tee-hee!) Cars tend to make less power running a combination of Sta-Bil and New Old Stock 1989 petrol...
-Matt- :::throwing the bike battery on the charger:::
Iain Miller - 08 Aug 2004 03:57 GMT > "Paul Duffin" <paul.duffin@dial.pipex.removethisbit.com> wrote in message > > > MCPD > > P.S. Did you notice how the 308 was faster than a certain 328? (tee-hee!) It was also smokier, more rattly, definitly more rusty & I heard somebody's mother remarked on it being a slightly odd shade of pink as well (!)
> -Matt- :::throwing the bike battery on the charger::: You won't jump the minivan off that..... (!)
I.
matt borland - 08 Aug 2004 02:55 GMT > > "Paul Duffin" <paul.duffin@dial.pipex.removethisbit.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It was also smokier, more rattly, definitly more rusty & I heard somebody's > mother remarked on it being a slightly odd shade of pink as well (!) Doh!
> > -Matt- :::throwing the bike battery on the charger::: > > You won't jump the minivan off that..... (!) No minivan here, although the missus drives a Passat wagon.
Oh dear Lord, it's starting isn't it..?
-Matt- "..."
Paul Duffin - 09 Aug 2004 09:18 GMT > It was also smokier, more rattly, definitly more rusty & I heard > somebody's mother remarked on it being a slightly odd shade of pink > as well (!) GODDAMMIT! I can't believe that got back to *you* of all people. Anyway the word 'pink' was not even remotely mentioned >:-(
...she just said it was a nice colour. Obviously the word 'standard' was omitted, but <cough> I think we can take that as read.
MCPD (Its bleedin' Rosso Corsa, I tells you!)
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
Iain Miller - 09 Aug 2004 14:19 GMT > > It was also smokier, more rattly, definitly more rusty & I heard > > somebody's mother remarked on it being a slightly odd shade of pink > > as well (!) > > GODDAMMIT! I can't believe that got back to *you* of all people. > Anyway the word 'pink' was not even remotely mentioned >:-( Tee hee.... (!)
> ...she just said it was a nice colour. Obviously the word 'standard' was > omitted, but <cough> I think we can take that as read. Take it to be as red as ya like matey....its just a question of which red....
> MCPD > (Its bleedin' Rosso Corsa, I tells you!) He's colour bind ya know (!)
I.
TigerRace1 - 06 Aug 2004 20:18 GMT <<P.S. Did you notice how the 308 was faster than a certain 328? (tee-hee!)>>
Seemed quite clear to me.
C.
Iain Miller - 08 Aug 2004 03:43 GMT > <<P.S. Did you notice how the 308 was faster than a certain 328? (tee-hee!)>> > > Seemed quite clear to me. The rattling baffles have clearly addled your brain & scrambled your logic circuits beyond economic repair!
I.
TigerRace1 - 09 Aug 2004 18:36 GMT <<The rattling baffles have clearly addled your brain & scrambled your logic circuits beyond economic repair!>>
Well, what did you expect me to say? I didn't hear you offering me a ride in YOUR Ferrari.
C.
Iain Miller - 09 Aug 2004 20:06 GMT > <<The rattling baffles have clearly addled your brain & scrambled your logic > circuits beyond economic repair!>> > > Well, what did you expect me to say? I didn't hear you offering me a ride in > YOUR Ferrari. Ah well, that was because the ensuing hubbub from my Missus (who rarely gets to ride in the left seat anyway cos of the sprogs etc) wouldn't have been worth it (!)
Besides which you were travelling in the wrong direction...!
I.
TigerRace1 - 11 Aug 2004 22:02 GMT <<Ah well, that was because the ensuing hubbub from my Missus (who rarely gets to ride in the left seat anyway cos of the sprogs etc) wouldn't have been worth it(!)>>
Hmph. You're a-scared of that little thing? She looked harmless enough.
<<Besides which you were travelling in the wrong direction...!>>
EuroPaul and I drove around in circles for a bit before heading home. That was one of the best parts of my whole trip to Europe.
C.
Iain Miller - 12 Aug 2004 00:05 GMT > <<Ah well, that was because the ensuing hubbub from my Missus (who rarely gets > to ride in the left seat anyway cos of the sprogs etc) wouldn't have been worth > it(!)>> > > Hmph. You're a-scared of that little thing? She looked harmless enough. Ho Ho....little do ya know!
> <<Besides which you were travelling in the wrong direction...!>> > > EuroPaul and I drove around in circles for a bit before heading home. Ah...he got lost again....he does that....Pub run 3 I think it was.....(!)
Paul Duffin - 12 Aug 2004 09:23 GMT >> EuroPaul and I drove around in circles for a bit before heading home. > > Ah...he got lost again....he does that....Pub run 3 I think it > was.....(!) Ah yes, the great circumnavigation of the cemetery as I recall... I was of course, um, warming the tyres ... yes - <cough> that was it.
MCPD ...of course one can over-heat the tyres, causing an unusually shiny appearance to the tyre wall...
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
Paul Duffin - 12 Aug 2004 09:16 GMT > EuroPaul and I drove around in circles for a bit before heading home. > That was one of the best parts of my whole trip to Europe. <Huge Smile> It was my pleasure and my honour...
..next time you'll have to be here longer then we can go further!
BTW, I was really quite nervous at the prospect of having a real racer in the passenger seat, but oddly once were actually sitting beside me, the nerves just vanished.
Gretchen clearly did a better job - I understand that Paul was just about nodding off to sleep in the Landy (that's a Land Rover Defender 90 to the poorly educated).
...and you'll be pleased to hear that Darcy (having had counselling) has just about recovered from your repeatedly addressing him as 'kitty'.
That was a good day.
Paul (Still wondering what your multi-multi-multi-millionaire parents made of our tiny house...)
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory) -Pub run 8 pics just as soon as I get off my fat arse and post them
TigerRace1 - 30 Aug 2004 20:47 GMT <<BTW, I was really quite nervous at the prospect of having a real racer in the passenger seat, but oddly once were actually sitting beside me, the nerves just vanished.>>
I get rather nervous when my Crew Chief rides next to me. Now he is a *real* racer, but I appreciate the compliment.
<<...and you'll be pleased to hear that Darcy (having had counselling) has just about recovered from your repeatedly addressing him as 'kitty'.>>
If the damn bunny had just sat still to be petted for more than an instant, things would have been fine.
<<That was a good day.>>
Indeed.
<<Paul (Still wondering what your multi-multi-multi-millionaire parents made of our tiny house...)>>
I don't think they commented directly. I wonder if that means they are being dismissive? Your house was beneath their notice? How rude!
C. :::who loved the house:::
Iain Miller - 08 Aug 2004 03:42 GMT > > <<Thomas *Dreaming of ever riding in a Ferrari*>> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > MCPD > P.S. Did you notice how the 308 was faster than a certain 328? (tee-hee!) Exqueeze me ?? Thata be the last time I wait for you to catch up so as we could wave you off!
I.
Thomas Andersson - 04 Aug 2004 14:33 GMT > <<Thomas *Dreaming of ever riding in a Ferrari*>> > > Given a choice, might I suggest a ride thru the English countryside? > <g> Swedish countryside isn't all bad either you know! ;)
> C. :::back from holiday::: Hope you had a real nice time!
Best Wishes Thomas
TigerRace1 - 04 Aug 2004 16:24 GMT <<Swedish countryside isn't all bad either you know!>>
I don't know, but perhaps I will find out!
<<Hope you had a real nice time!>>
It was mostly fabulous.
C.
J.C. - 05 Aug 2004 12:03 GMT > C. :::back from holiday::: Me too! How was the French part of your journey?
Did the 512M perform well in Le Mans?
 Signature J.C.
TigerRace1 - 05 Aug 2004 22:30 GMT <<Me too! How was the French part of your journey?>>
How do you think it was? I went all the way to France and you were nowhere in sight! I was crushed, dismayed, distraught, stricken... uh... bummed out.
<<Did the 512M perform well in Le Mans?>>
Brilliantly! Better than the other two 512s. I was quite proud. We even met Filipinetti's daughter's husband and the team's former crew chief. We had the wrong gearing in the car though, so it was rather slow, or so I was told.
C.
J.C. - 06 Aug 2004 09:11 GMT > <<Me too! How was the French part of your journey?>> > > How do you think it was? I went all the way to France and you were nowhere in > sight! I was crushed, dismayed, distraught, stricken... uh... bummed out. Sorry my dear, I was by Lake Maggiore at that time (hey Paul!). Heard you quickly overcame your disappointment by jumping in the first red (although-not-he-right-color) car you met in Europe, though ;-)
> <<Did the 512M perform well in Le Mans?>> > > Brilliantly! Better than the other two 512s. I was quite proud. We even met > Filipinetti's daughter's husband and the team's former crew chief. Nice. I found some pictures here : <http://www.allsportauto.com/modules.php?name=AffPhoto&page=0&zl_source= LeMansClassic2004>
 Signature J.C.
Paul Duffin - 06 Aug 2004 11:45 GMT > Sorry my dear, I was by Lake Maggiore at that time (hey Paul!). Hey J.C.! where did you get to on your tour? how was the Ferrari?
> you quickly overcame your disappointment by jumping in the first red > (although-not-he-right-color) car you met in Europe, though ;-) alright, alright, and there I was being friendly.
MCPD
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
TigerRace1 - 06 Aug 2004 18:28 GMT <<Sorry my dear, I was by Lake Maggiore at that time>>
<sniffle> I'm sure that I'll get over it. Perhaps if you make yourself less scarce the next time I'm in Europe. We're thinking of honeymooning in Italy next April or September.
<<Heard you quickly overcame your disappointment by jumping in the first red (although-not-he-right-color) car you met in Europe, though>>
I'm easy (but not cheap). Flash a Ferrari in front of me and I go all woozy.
<<I found some pictures here>>
That's the one! All the pictures taken during the day have dad driving and everything at night was my Crew Chief. Sweet man. He was pleasantly surprised to find just how much power that car has when you push the pedal all the way to the floor.
C.
TigerRace1 - 05 Aug 2004 22:31 GMT <<You also have to budget for a host of silly little things that nonetheless will cost you big.>>
Like $8 bolts.
C.
Iain Miller - 23 Jul 2004 10:50 GMT > I'm looking to add my first Ferrari to my stable, something I could pick up > for $50K US or so. The only thing that is holding me back are comments like [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Your candid replies will be greatly appreciated. Sounds like you are in 328/348 territory with that kind of money - I doubt you would get into a 355 for that but I'd imagine you'd get a good 328/348. You might get into a Testarossa if 12 cylinders is your thing - I'm not that up to speed with the market prices.
328s are at least 15 years old now, 348s, 10 or so year's old
The maintenance bill you get will depend on how good the car is when you buy it - unless you get very lucky you should expect to spend several $1,000 on bring it up to spec & sorting it out to where you want it to be - and secondly on the mileage you intend to do (and of course the mileage the car has done). That said they are fairly simple cars without too much in the way of electronics and , in many respects, pretty bomb-proof. What you "hear" about needing a mechanic living with you is most likely from people who "heard it" somewhere else !
I've had a 328 for the last 5 years - in that time I've put about 10K miles on it & it hasn't needed anything other than basic, scheduled maintenance & a set of brake pads. Overall its a fallacy that properly maintained Ferraris spend half their lives on a workshop ramp.
One or two of our residents here do their own spannering - on 308s & 328s - whether you can depends on the facilities you have & your own capabilities/inclintion to do so!
348s tend to be more expensive to maintain - changing the cambelts (every 3 years) involves removing the engine because it's mounted "North-South".
There's been a lot written here about this kind of stuff in the last few years - have a Google & see what you can find
rgds
Iain
Paul Duffin - 23 Jul 2004 10:15 GMT > I've had a 328 for the last 5 years - in that time I've put about 10 miles > on it & it hasn't needed anything other than one tank of petrol. No surprise there, then.
Paul
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
Iain Miller - 23 Jul 2004 16:07 GMT > > I've had a 328 for the last 5 years - in that time I've put about 10 miles > > on it & it hasn't needed anything other than one tank of petrol. > > No surprise there, then. Fortunately though its still the right colour ;-)
Ted Adlam - 25 Jul 2004 00:15 GMT I've also had a /87 328 for 5.5 years, spanning 10k miles, nothing but regular maintenance (this included one "major service" @ $5k). Just about due for my second major service next year. All service over 5.5 yrs works out to $7.5k. Yearly car registration is less than $100, and insurance not too bad @ $700/yr (Progressive). When you add all this up, and taking into consideration the miniscule depreciation (nearly zero!), total cost of ownership is quite reasonable. I figure less than what it would have been had I bought a new 'vette in 2000. Heck, a new Vette in 2000 would have suffered at least $15k in depreciation by now, even with only 10k miles.
I have on occasion thought about upgrading to a 355, but the Ferrari service manager always brings me back to my senses...328's are very reliable and are not burdened with lots of electronic doo-dads as are the newer models. 355's are much faster and I love the style though, maybe when NASDAQ hits 5000 again.
Ted.
> > I'm looking to add my first Ferrari to my stable, something I could pick > up [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Iain matt borland - 25 Jul 2004 02:54 GMT > I've also had a /87 328 for 5.5 years, spanning 10k miles, <snippage>
Everybody welcome Lurker Ted, who to my knowledge hasn't posted on here before, at least not under this name.
<cue 'everybody'>
"Welcome Lurker Ted!"
-Matt- "I won't call you a lurker after this, I promise."
C5 - 25 Jul 2004 07:38 GMT > I've also had a /87 328 for 5.5 years, spanning 10k miles, nothing but > regular maintenance (this included one "major service" @ $5k). Just about [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ted. Any reason to believe the 355s are less reliable than the 328?
Ted Adlam - 25 Jul 2004 14:23 GMT The reliability thing is based only on anecdotal information, since I have never owned a Ferrari other than my 328. Since some of this info comes directly from the Scottsdale Ferrari service manager, I tend to give it some heed! He tells me "nothing much ever seems to go wrong with 328's". And this has been my experience across 5.5 years.
Here's the thing: seems like most cars built since the mid-90's have a very high content of electronics and cute little gizmos (power seats, power tops, computerized climate controls, etc.). And they all break eventually, whether Ferrari, Mercedes, Volvo, GM, or whatever. The 308/328 series therefore benefits on two counts: 1) Relative design simplicity (no power seats, few electronics gizmos, heck not even power steering) 2) Some parts are rather common and inexpensive (e.g., spark plugs are standard issue as opposed to the 355's expensive type)
There are a bunch of 355 owners here on alt.auto.ferrari, maybe some of them can chime in with their experiences. No question the 355 is a far more capable performance car, and I do lust after one. But not having limitless financial resources, I have to stick with what I've got.
Ted.
> > I've also had a /87 328 for 5.5 years, spanning 10k miles, nothing but > > regular maintenance (this included one "major service" @ $5k). Just about [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Any reason to believe the 355s are less reliable than the 328? Iain Miller - 25 Jul 2004 20:07 GMT > > I have on occasion thought about upgrading to a 355, but the Ferrari > service [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Any reason to believe the 355s are less reliable than the 328? Anectodatally, a lot more engine problems - particularly around exhaust headers with cars that have been used with some vigour (!)
Great car none the less but definitly more expensive to maintain.
I.
TigerRace1 - 03 Aug 2004 23:51 GMT <<Anectodatally, a lot more engine problems - particularly around exhaust headers with cars that have been used with some vigour (!)>>
Who'd you hear that from? After beating the crap out of a 355 engine (over 3000 race miles) and spending a good deal of time around others doing the same AND talking to various Ferrari techs over the years, I still feel comfortable telling people that the 355 motor is basically bullet proof.
And it sounds oh-so lovely!
<<Great car none the less but definitly more expensive to maintain.>>
Understatement of the Week, especially if you are talking about an F1 model.
C.
Iain Miller - 08 Aug 2004 03:52 GMT > <<Anectodatally, a lot more engine problems - particularly around exhaust > headers with cars that have been used with some vigour (!)>> > > Who'd you hear that from? The boys at QV have to replace so many headers they've started having them repaired/remanufactured & they use tube that is slightly thicker than standard. Net result is a new header that is about a third the price of the real thing. End result is a bit ugly cos they have to cut the heat shield casing to get to the pipes to replace them & then weld it back up again.. According to them the original manifold pipes are just a teeny bit too thin. Thin is good cos they heat up more & improve gasflow. Too thin is bad cos they melt. Seems to happen on the middle two pipes on each bank
QV have also now deemed it worthwhile to actually carry a rebuilt 355 engine in stock which is available on an exchange basis - they don't carry any others.
Stories from Germany about engines that have been "used" regularly on Autobahns etc etc..
>After beating the crap out of a 355 engine (over 3000 > race miles) and spending a good deal of time around others doing the same AND > talking to various Ferrari techs over the years, I still feel comfortable > telling people that the 355 motor is basically bullet proof.
> And it sounds oh-so lovely! No doubt about that.
I.
TigerRace1 - 03 Aug 2004 23:48 GMT <<Any reason to believe the 355s are less reliable than the 328?>>
None.
C.
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