Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / September 2004
Dan Neil strikes again! (who cares if it's waaay O/T?)
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MC - 26 Aug 2004 05:59 GMT This guy can write. "Common gats", indeed!
RUMBLE SEAT Full-metal dinner jacket In today's scary world, does the armor-clad Lincoln Town Car BPS qualify as a family car? By Dan Neil Times Staff Writer
August 25, 2004
The National Rifle Assn. is right when it says guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people, and really big bullets traveling at four times the speed of sound kill people with excellent and resounding authority. Welcome to the fascinating world of rifle-grade ballistics. Please keep your brains inside your skull during the ride.
The new Lincoln Town Car BPS (Ballistic Protection Series) is the only rifle-grade armored car made by a North American manufacturer, certified to meet or exceed the National Institute of Justice's Level III ballistic testing, a standard that easily rebuffs ordnance fired by common gats such as a Beretta 9-millimeter handgun. The $145,000 vehicle — which for reasons of discretion looks exactly like a regular Town Car, otherwise known in Los Angeles as a "studio car" — can withstand rifle rounds that would fell an elephant, including the .308-caliber round Bwana might fire while hunting with his Winchester.
The full-metal-jacket version of this round is known to NATO forces as 7.62-millimeter-by-51-millimeter "ball" ammunition. Science geek alert: The 7.62 round has a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second and imparts to the 150-grain projectile a kinetic energy of about 2,511 foot-pounds. In the face of these enormous kinetic values, even the most Olympian of hardbodies is nothing more than a bowl of Jell-O.
In addition to these big-bore threats, the Town Car BPS will ward off the NATO 5.56-millimeter-by-45-millimeter "armor-piercing" round — high-velocity assault-rifle ammo with a tungsten core that can, whistling through the air at 3,000 feet per second, punch through quarter-inch armor plating. Also, the Ballistic Town Car has an aramid-weave ballistic blast blanket in the floor to protect against small antipersonnel mines and grenades.
All of which means, for instance, that the Town Car BPS would afford our troops in Iraq superior protection over many of the ad-hoc, half-baked "up-armored" Humvees they are currently obliged to patrol in. The thought of American troops rolling into battle in black limos is funny. Why am I not laughing?
Fear factor
The market for private armored cars picked up after 9/11 but, says Ford executive Rick Bondy, the former G-man in charge of the BPS program, it may have less to do with increased threat than increased perception of risk.
"People might perceive risk more now because of what they know and what they hear and the timeliness that they hear it in," says the no-nonsense Bondy, who has ballistic-shaped gray hair and armor-piercing eyes. "But is there more violence? I can't tell you and nobody else can either.
"If someone perceives that they are at risk and they want to feel safer and more serene going through life, then they buy one of these products."
There are scores of armorers around the world that retrofit production cars with ballistic protection. The armored-car business is very big in the Middle East, Central and South America and Asia. Some of the big aftermarket companies, such as Ohio-based O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt, offer assault-rifle ballistic retrofitting, but Bondy argues convincingly that the automakers themselves are in the best position to engineer a ballistic car.
"There are over 700 unique parts in our ballistic cars and every one of them is a Ford part with a Ford part number," he says. "Everything has been tested — crash testing, durability testing, rough-road testing. I know the doors will close 80,000 times. I know that the windshield won't become a secondary projectile in a crash. I know the air bags work. We're going to build these products to the same standard and with the same serviceability as any other product we sell."
Lincoln will sell the BPS cars through 16 authorized dealers, including the Galpin Ford mega-dealership in the San Fernando Valley, but the cars can be serviced at any Lincoln dealership.
Last year, Cadillac announced that it was partnering with Scaletta Moloney Armoring to build a ballistic series DeVille. Scaletta armors a variety of big SUVs for the Government Services Administration; the company already builds a number of Sedan DeVille motorcade vehicles for the GSA, including — and this is a secret — the presidential limousine, which looks like the unholy spawn of a DeVille and an Abrams tank.
The Cadillac is a handgun-rated car, capable of withstanding a .44-magnum round. This is roughly the same level of protection offered by the Mercedes-Benz S500 Guard, meeting the European B4 ballistic standard. Both Mercedes-Benz and BMW sell cars capable of taking a hit from a 7.62 armor-piercing round (B6/B7-level protection). However, neither company imports the B6/B7-grade cars into the United States.
The rifle-grade Town Car BPS is aimed directly at the handgun-grade Mercedes S500 Guard, with a price point slightly below the German car.
"We said if we're going to get in this business we were going to do it at a higher level than anybody that has been in the business before. We're the new kids on the block so we're built at a higher level, from a ballistic standpoint, than Mercedes or BMW."
All the windows in the Lincoln are 40-millimeter-thick ballistic transparent armor, comprising layers of glass and polycarbonate. Ballistic steel (Brinell hardness rating over 600) wraps the roof, engine compartment, door seals and firewall. In the doors themselves, ballistic ceramics, backed with steel and aramid blankets, protect the passenger compartment. The fuel tank is surrounded with a self-sealing compound to reduce leakage.
Escape velocity
Tough enough for you? Yet given enough time, says Bondy, any "ballistic solution" will fail. "People can keep putting bullets in the same hole."
In the moment of extremity, the driver of a car under attack may become unnerved, panic, or — in my case, I'm sure — lose control of bodily functions in a spectacular way. Bondy and his team tried to give the Town Car BPS as benign a handling profile as possible.
"Vehicle dynamics has to be equally important as the ballistic solution," says Bondy. "If you crash while someone's trying to kill you, you're going to die."
The Town Car BPS is built on the heavy-duty frame of the company's stretch limo. The shocks, springs, control arms, bushings and sway bars are upgraded to cope with the car's 6,220-pound curb weight. Underneath is a heavy-duty axle with a 3.55:1 rear gear, giving the car better off-the-mark acceleration. The tires are 17-inch all-season Michelins with run-flat inserts.
Nights in shining armor
Quiet. The first sensation of the Town Car BPS is a dramatic, deafening silence in the cabin. The 40-millimeter glass keeps out sound as well as bullets.
Weight. A surfeit of freakish, grand-piano heft exudes from this car. If you park the car on any kind of sideways incline, those on the uphill side will struggle to open the doors, which must weigh 300 pounds apiece. Eventually you adapt a technique of squeezing out of the door like toothpaste. The door hinges do not have the usual detents that prop the doors open. They just swing like the doors of a pawn-shop safe.
Forget going through the drive-thru. The 40-millimeter (about 1 1/2 inches) windows drop open only about 6 inches, not nearly enough to get a Dairy Queen Blizzard through. On the upside, when seen through polarized sunglasses, the super-thick glass swirls with rainbow moire patterns. Very psychedelic.
Inertia. The primary difference between the Mercedes and BMW armored cars and the Town Car BPS is that the German cars have modified engines that cope with the added weight of the armoring. The Lincoln engine is the stock 4.6-liter, 239-horsepower V8 producing 287 pound-feet of torque at 4,100 rpm. It isn't enough. The BPS busts a prodigious gut to reach 60 mph in under 12 seconds, and the hills of Hollywood can leave it winded and straining. I was glad no one was chasing me.
Understeer: What Bondy calls safe, predictable handling is the mother of all understeer. The car simply will not respond beyond a certain speed and steering angle. It handles like a 3-ton hammer on a string.
Invincibility: So it's no sports car. But it feels like Navarone on four wheels. Once the door closes, you experience a sudden, transforming otherness — the world cannot touch you. Road rage? Please. Take your best shot.
Or not. Here's a fun fact to keep you up at night: It is perfectly legal — and so easy any deranged lunatic can do it — to buy a Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifle, one of the 5-foot monsters used by American forces in Afghanistan, Iraq and a lot of places you would rather not know about (the California Legislature is now considering AB50, which would ban the sale of .50-caliber rifles in the state). It's even easier to purchase armor-piercing ammunition for the gun. Put them together and you have one of the world's most devastating standoff weapons, capable of ventilating a head of state at a mile's distance, or even taking out one very large Lincoln.
Everybody needs a hobby.
2004 Lincoln Town Car BPS
Price, as tested: $145,000
Powertrain: 4.6-liter, SOHC V8, four-speed automatic, 3.55:1 rear gear ratio, heavy-duty axle, rear-wheel drive
Horsepower: 239 at 4,900 rpm
Torque: 287 pound-feet at 4,100 rpm
Curb weight: 6,220 pounds
0-60 mph: 12 seconds (est.)
Wheelbase: 117.7 inches
Overall length: 215.4 inches
Competitors: Cadillac DeVille armored car, Mercedes-Benz S500 Guard
Final thoughts: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.
Automotive critic Dan Neil can be reached at dan.neil@latimes.com. http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/highway1/la-hy-neil25aug25,1,1235107.st ory?coll=la-news-highway_1
F2004: 12 of 13* - 28 Aug 2004 15:38 GMT [...]
>The full-metal-jacket version of this round is known to NATO forces as >7.62-millimeter-by-51-millimeter "ball" ammunition. Science geek alert: >The 7.62 round has a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second and >imparts to the 150-grain projectile a kinetic energy of about 2,511 >foot-pounds. In the face of these enormous kinetic values, even the most >Olympian of hardbodies is nothing more than a bowl of Jell-O. You should see what it does to golf balls at 100m!
...Perfect therapy after "a good walk ruined".*
>In addition to these big-bore threats, the Town Car BPS will ward off >the NATO 5.56-millimeter-by-45-millimeter "armor-piercing" round [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >aramid-weave ballistic blast blanket in the floor to protect against >small antipersonnel mines and grenades. The 7.62x51 *target* round, 168gr hollow point, 2410fps (2285ft-lbs) at _100m_, will punch through 3/8" steel plate at 100m like a hole punch on rice paper.*
*Personal observation.
MC - 29 Aug 2004 21:44 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > *Personal observation. I knew I could bring you out with a mention of guns. Guns make you shed the woodwork right away. There's something about you and guns .... guns and you ... guns ... Mark.
Right. I like it. I'm sure you own several. I would, too, if I could, but I cannot legally in California. And I don't have any money, so I have a hard time owning them illegally. Not that I couldn't get them.
MC
F2004: 12 of 14* - 30 Aug 2004 18:35 GMT > The 7.62x51 *target* round, 168gr hollow point, 2410fps (2285ft-lbs) >> at _100m_, will punch through 3/8" steel plate at 100m like a hole [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the woodwork right away. There's something about you and guns .... guns >and you ... guns ... Mark. ...I think I'll go shooting tonight!
>Right. I like it. I'm sure you own several. Four pistols, three longarms, nice one's too! I've even got an genuine M-29 "Dirty Harry" .44Mag.
I'm almost done buying pistols, just want a .41mag, and a Luger P-08, maybe a Glock .357SIG, ...oh, and a Colt 1911 .45.
Maybe I'm not so done buying pistols.
...Need a bigger apartment.
>I would, too, if I could, >but I cannot legally in California. And I don't have any money, so I >have a hard time owning them illegally. Not that I couldn't get them. There's a rub: I could have bought any number of decent 9mms,.40s or 10mms, at considerable discount, on "the street", in the 4months I waited for my NYS pistol permit to be affirmed.
Phil - 30 Aug 2004 20:54 GMT >There's a rub: I could have bought any number of decent 9mms,.40s or >10mms, at considerable discount, on "the street", in the 4months I >waited for my NYS pistol permit to be affirmed. How the hec did you get a NYS pistol permit? These are nearly impossible to obtain (I know).
The best most of us could do is get the rifle/shotgun permit (btw, I love shotguns, they make such great sounds).
Phil
F2004: 12 of 14* - 30 Aug 2004 21:29 GMT >>There's a rub: I could have bought any number of decent 9mms,.40s or >>10mms, at considerable discount, on "the street", in the 4months I >>waited for my NYS pistol permit to be affirmed. > >How the hec did you get a NYS pistol permit? These are nearly >impossible to obtain (I know). NYS. _Not_ NYC.
>The best most of us could do is get the rifle/shotgun permit (btw, I >love shotguns, they make such great sounds). I have a "little" one, 20ga, Beretta o/u. I feed it Italian shotshells (Baschieri & Pellagri) for a very nice sound, indeed.
MC - 30 Aug 2004 22:19 GMT > I have a "little" one, 20ga, Beretta o/u. I feed it Italian
> shotshells (Baschieri & Pellagri) for a very nice sound, indeed. I am reminded of a line from one of the all-time great documents on weapons and ammo on the Internet (link below). In discussing the various loads for the different size shotguns, the author comes up with this gem:
"10 Gauge - Yow. Load your 10 gauge with whatever the hell you want."
MC
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG1.html
Phil - 31 Aug 2004 15:09 GMT >>>There's a rub: I could have bought any number of decent 9mms,.40s or >>>10mms, at considerable discount, on "the street", in the 4months I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >NYS. _Not_ NYC. Ooops. My mistake.
Phil
MC - 30 Aug 2004 22:12 GMT > There's a rub: I could have bought any number of decent 9mms,.40s or
> 10mms, at considerable discount, on "the street", in the 4months I > waited for my NYS pistol permit to be affirmed. Well, the ones I could get would be considerably scruffier, and probably have the serial numbers crudely filed off ... that's the nature of "on the street" in my area.
MC
04 C5 Black Coupe - 31 Aug 2004 02:33 GMT > Four pistols, three longarms, nice one's too! I've even got an > genuine M-29 "Dirty Harry" .44Mag. Hmm..... I thought you called the .44 Smith & Wesson gun that Dirty Harry utilized a "revolver" or "wheelgun" and not a pistol. No? I had the Dan Wesson .44 in a 2 1/2 inch barrel. No groupings.
> I'm almost done buying pistols, just want a .41mag, and a Luger P-08, > maybe a Glock .357SIG, ...oh, and a Colt 1911 .45. My Colt .45 which I put Pachmeyer grips on, throated and ramped, ambidextrous safeties (I'm left handed) Smith and Wesson orange front sight, with white outlined rear adjustable sight, is probably the most accurate weapon I own. Except, maybe the Colt Python .357 in the six inch barrel.
(This excludes long guns)
Please don't let apartment dwellers buy any home protection handgun with a muzzle velocity of over 950 fps, and definitely no hardball. People don't realize how thin the walls in apartments are, if they miss the intended target. This public safety announcement from some guy who wants a Ferrari.
Larry
Phil - 31 Aug 2004 15:14 GMT >Please don't let apartment dwellers buy any home protection handgun with a >muzzle velocity of over 950 fps, and definitely no hardball. People don't >realize how thin the walls in apartments are, if they miss the intended >target. This public safety announcement from some guy who wants a Ferrari. > >Larry One should only use a shotgun for home protection. It's easier to aim - if you get startled out of a sound sleep, you just need to "kinda" aim; if you miss, you'll take a wall down, but won't go through it and kill your neighbor; and usually the crack of the action (chick-chick) will cause most people to loose control of their body functions so you may not have to actually kill the bastard.
Welcome Larry. Phil
F2004: 12 of 14* - 31 Aug 2004 18:58 GMT >F2004: 12 of 14* <tifosoREM@OVEmindspring.com> wrote in message >Hmm..... I thought you called the .44 Smith & Wesson gun that Dirty Harry >utilized a "revolver" or "wheelgun" and not a pistol. No? >I had the Dan Wesson .44 in a 2 1/2 inch barrel. No groupings. Two semi-auto pistols, two revolvers. ...Happy? ;-)
>> I'm almost done buying pistols, just want a .41mag, and a Luger P-08, >> maybe a Glock .357SIG, ...oh, and a Colt 1911 .45. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >with white outlined rear adjustable sight, is probably the most accurate >weapon I own. Except, maybe the Colt Python .357 in the six inch barrel. I have that Python: SWEET!
I let a NIB Series 70 Gold Cup .45 go to a friend years ago, and regret it to this day.
>(This excludes long guns) > >Please don't let apartment dwellers buy any home protection handgun with a >muzzle velocity of over 950 fps, and definitely no hardball. People don't >realize how thin the walls in apartments are, if they miss the intended >target. This public safety announcement from some guy who wants a Ferrari. None of mine are for protection, we have doormen for that (and thick concrete walls).
04 C5 Black Coupe - 01 Sep 2004 04:05 GMT > I let a NIB Series 70 Gold Cup .45 go to a friend years ago, and > regret it to this day. I completely forgot about that semi-auto. I couldn't afford one then, and I probably couldn't now, either. But what a gun!
> >(This excludes long guns) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > None of mine are for protection, we have doormen for that (and thick > concrete walls). I like the concrete walls. What country are you located in?
MC - 01 Sep 2004 04:59 GMT > I like the concrete walls. What country are you located in? He lives in New Yawk. But I think he's upstate, in the woods, in a fine house, albeit one equipped with ham radio, satellite dish and police/military scanner. He rarely trims his facial hair often wears Vietnam-issue combat fatigues (none of that Desert Whatever dust bunny sh.t). He smokes Dunhill, drinks Spaten Brau, and cooks a mean timpani. Renaissance man, but with the rough edge. He knows that the finest clothing is really to be had only from the LL Bean catalog - and Armani. Goes in to the city only to resupply the Scotch and sometimes find a woman for the weekend. But she has to like French kissing on his Bombardier Outlander Max, 16-hour clam bakes, "Beretta", his K9-trained Malinois, firing large-bore weapons and Ramonet Montrachet. Not necessarily in that order.
MC The Seer
F2004: 12 of 14* - 01 Sep 2004 05:44 GMT >> I like the concrete walls. What country are you located in? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Malinois, firing large-bore weapons and Ramonet Montrachet. Not >necessarily in that order. ROFLMAO!!! Great, Mike!
Downstate, apartment, no ham, no dish nor scanner, clean shaven, prefer khakis and polo shirts, Dunhills no more, lasagna, gin, sloop foredeck, dust bunnies and Veuve Cliquot.
...Other than that, spot on!
MC - 01 Sep 2004 06:24 GMT > ROFLMAO!!! Great, Mike!
> Downstate, apartment, no ham, no dish nor scanner, clean shaven, > prefer khakis and polo shirts, Dunhills no more, lasagna, gin, sloop > foredeck, dust bunnies and Veuve Cliquot. > > ...Other than that, spot on! Oi, I almost had you sussed. Personally, I'm not sure about the khakis and polo shirts. That seems so 1990s affluence, which smells of Audis in the garage, German knives on the countertop block, and gewurztraminer. Not to mention those ancient images of the carefree yuppie (argh) with the polo and the khakis, sweater tied around the neck or waist, slipping into his (urgh) Ferrari 308 with the winsome girlie friend.
NOOO - that sh.t is dead. You need to get back to the outdoor gladiator clothing, with plenty of places to keep handguns - and the menacing black Maranello or Testarossa with which to store more weapons and to mount missions.
I still suck the Dunnies. I can go for weeks without them, but never drop them for good. I fear I'll have one between my fingers when I die.
MC
F2004: 12 of 14* - 01 Sep 2004 15:37 GMT > > ROFLMAO!!! Great, Mike! >> Downstate, apartment, no ham, no dish nor scanner, clean shaven, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Oi, I almost had you sussed. Personally, I'm not sure about the khakis >and polo shirts. It's a "uniform": I never have to think about anything other than shirt color. ...It's said Einstein had a closet filled with only brown suits, so he never had to divert his mind to something as trivial as fashion.
>That seems so 1990s affluence, which smells of Audis >in the garage, German knives on the countertop block, and >gewurztraminer. Acura, guilty, Prosecco. Your'e really not very good at this seeing at a distance thing. ;-)
>Not to mention those ancient images of the carefree >yuppie (argh) with the polo and the khakis, sweater tied around the neck >or waist, slipping into his (urgh) Ferrari 308 with the winsome girlie >friend. ...You got something against winsome girlies?
>NOOO - that sh.t is dead. You need to get back to the outdoor gladiator >clothing, with plenty of places to keep handguns - and the menacing >black Maranello or > >Testarossa Blech.
>with which to store more weapons and to mount missions. The only Ferrari I'd refuse, if offered, is a black one ...ghastly color for an Italian car.
>I still suck the Dunnies. I think "dunny" is Aussie for "loo"...
>I can go for weeks without them, but never >drop them for good. I fear I'll have one between my fingers when I die. Marlboro Mediums for me, and I count/ration them these days.
MC - 01 Sep 2004 18:41 GMT >>That seems so 1990s affluence, which smells of Audis >>in the garage, German knives on the countertop block, and >>gewurztraminer. > > Acura, guilty, Prosecco. Your'e really not very good at this seeing > at a distance thing. ;-) Oh, I'm damn good at it. In this case I was just describing what the "uniform" made me think of - and you immediately ticked down the list of a few more things you have. I think I'm quite good at it - if I don't immediately guess it one almost feels compelled to tell me!
:-) MC
F2004: 12 of 14* - 01 Sep 2004 20:43 GMT >>>That seems so 1990s affluence, which smells of Audis >>>in the garage, German knives on the countertop block, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a few more things you have. I think I'm quite good at it - if I don't >immediately guess it one almost feels compelled to tell me! ..."Correct" you.
You have, however, mastered that cold reading thing; have you considered a career in "contacting the dead"?
MC - 01 Sep 2004 21:55 GMT Interesting proposition, that. However, I'm not quite done failing completely as a writer. If there's still time after that, cold reading looks like a winner!
MC
> You have, however, mastered that cold reading thing; have you > considered a career in "contacting the dead"? matt borland - 01 Sep 2004 21:56 GMT "F2004: 12 of 14*" <tifoso@mindspring.com> wrote in message
MC said
> >Oh, I'm damn good at it. In this case I was just describing what the > >"uniform" made me think of - and you immediately ticked down the list of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You have, however, mastered that cold reading thing; have you > considered a career in "contacting the dead"? Wow, I wrote a paper years ago on cold reading. Great catch!
-Matt- "I see a man, maybe a father, maybe a brother..?"
F2004: 12 of 14* - 07 Sep 2004 02:01 GMT >-Matt- "I see a man, maybe a father, maybe a brother..?" ..."Daddy?"
matt borland - 07 Sep 2004 01:57 GMT > >-Matt- "I see a man, maybe a father, maybe a brother..?" > > ..."Daddy?" Yes! Your father! He appears older, somewhat heavyset, but maybe thin... Auburn hair, maybe thinning... He's holding something in his hand... A pipe? A book? A pet, maybe...?
-Matt- "..."
F2004: 12 of 14* - 07 Sep 2004 13:27 GMT >> >-Matt- "I see a man, maybe a father, maybe a brother..?" >> >> ..."Daddy?" > >Yes! Your father! He appears older, ...Older than what?
>somewhat heavyset, but maybe thin... Yes! That's him!
>Auburn hair, BZZZT.
>maybe thinning... >He's holding something in his hand... A pipe? A book? A pet, maybe...? Yes! His beloved pet, "The History of Meerschaum"!
matt borland - 08 Sep 2004 01:58 GMT > >> >-Matt- "I see a man, maybe a father, maybe a brother..?" > >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ...Older than what? It's fading, I'm losing contact... The spirit is restless...
> >somewhat heavyset, but maybe thin... > > Yes! That's him! So your father...
> >Auburn hair, > > BZZZT. It's fading, you've upset him...
> >maybe thinning... > >He's holding something in his hand... A pipe? A book? A pet, maybe...? > > Yes! His beloved pet, "The History of Meerschaum"! Jackpot! I mean, errrr, he wishes you well.
That'll be five dollars please.
-Matt- "..."
TigerRace1 - 01 Sep 2004 20:25 GMT <<It's a "uniform": I never have to think about anything other than shirt color.>>
Yup, that's what that would look like.
<<It's said Einstein had a closet filled with only brown suits, so he never had to divert his mind to something as trivial as fashion.>>
That's too bad. A man like him could stand to spend a minute or two thinking about how he looks.
<<The only Ferrari I'd refuse, if offered, is a black one ...ghastly color for an Italian car.>>
Both the Daytona and the Boxer look stunning in black and it's the only colour that the TR doesn't look completely hideous in. That being said, I'll still own a red Boxer one day.
C.
F2004: 12 of 14* - 01 Sep 2004 22:03 GMT ><<It's said Einstein had a closet filled with only brown suits, so he never had >to divert his mind to something as trivial as fashion.>> >That's too bad. A man like him could stand to spend a minute or two thinking >about how he looks. Thoroughly unimportant matter. I'd emulate him even closer, but I look terrible in brown suits...
><<The only Ferrari I'd refuse, if offered, is a black one ...ghastly color for >an Italian car.>> >Both the Daytona and the Boxer look stunning in black We will, as always, agree to STRENUOUSLY disagree.
>and it's the only colour >that the TR doesn't look completely hideous in. ...That would have to be "transparent black".
>that being said, I'll still own a red Boxer one day. At last; you speak sense. ("May I have a ride?")
TigerRace1 - 02 Sep 2004 20:30 GMT <<At last; you speak sense. ("May I have a ride?")>>
Let's ask Mikey to read my mind and then he can tell you what I'm thinking.
C.
TigerRace1 - 01 Sep 2004 00:05 GMT <<Please don't let apartment dwellers buy any home protection handgun>>
That statement makes good sense.
C.
04 C5 Black Coupe - 01 Sep 2004 04:07 GMT > <<Please don't let apartment dwellers buy any home protection handgun>> > > That statement makes good sense. > > C. Well..... I suppose I could go along with that, although I used to keep a .45 with a light load in a Winchester Silvertip. But I also took a fair amount of training as well. So, back to your idea, if we can't get people better educated.
matt borland - 31 Aug 2004 03:28 GMT "F2004: 12 of 14*" <tifosoREM@OVEmindspring.com> wrote in message
> I'm almost done buying pistols, just want a .41mag, and a Luger P-08, > maybe a Glock .357SIG, ...oh, and a Colt 1911 .45. > > Maybe I'm not so done buying pistols. Yeah I still want a Ruger SP101 for a carry gun, a .41mag, considered getting the same Glock .357SIG (had a .40 cal.), not to mention all the long guns I want yet...
-Matt- "..."
F2004: 12 of 14* - 31 Aug 2004 18:52 GMT >"F2004: 12 of 14*" <tifosoREM@OVEmindspring.com> wrote in message >> I'm almost done buying pistols, just want a .41mag, and a Luger P-08, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Yeah I still want a Ruger SP101 for a carry gun, a .41mag, >considered getting the same Glock .357SIG (had a .40 cal.), I can't carry in my home county, never think I'd really like to; there'd be a lot more dead SUV drivers if I did.
I'm thinking S&W's "1911" in .357SIG should be the next one, my semi's are both pure target pistols, I'd like one with a bit of *resistenza*, and Series 70 GC's are getting scarce and expensive (~$1,500).
>not to mention all the long guns I want yet... Want .308 700VS?
I want a Anschutz .222.
matt borland - 01 Sep 2004 03:26 GMT > >not to mention all the long guns I want yet... > > Want .308 700VS? Too rich for my blood currently...
I'm more in the NEF Handi-Rifle range...
Gimme one of those with barrels in .45-70 Gov't, .30-06, and .22-250.
-Matt- "Throw in an HK91 and a FN-FAL please..."
04 C5 Black Coupe - 01 Sep 2004 04:23 GMT matt borland <mborland@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message news:qraZc.270175$fv.52807@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > >not to mention all the long guns I want yet... > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -Matt- "Throw in an HK91 and a FN-FAL please..." If we're going HK, my very favorite is the H&K MP5 A3 or MP5 N. We did some comparison groupings using the Israeli Uzi, M-16 and an MP5 A3. What a HUGE difference in controllability. I particularly liked the three shot burst setting. Haven't tried the larger caliber UMP5. In the State I live in, you need to be with a Federal Fire Arms licensee, or on special millitary, Secret Service, or police service to be able to own these small machine guns. So I can shoot them, but I can't own them. If I could, I'd take the MP5 N.
F2004: 12 of 14* - 01 Sep 2004 05:19 GMT >matt borland <mborland@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message >> "F2004: 12 of 14*" <tifosoREM@OVEmindspring.com> wrote in message >> > Want [a] .308 700VS? >> Too rich for my blood currently... Needs a good home, I don't exercise it enough.
>> I'm more in the NEF Handi-Rifle range... >> Gimme one of those with barrels in .45-70 Gov't, .30-06, and .22-250. I'm on the hunt for a single shot falling block in the .308, even though I want to get rid of one...
>If we're going HK, my very favorite is the H&K MP5 A3 or MP5 N. We did >some comparison groupings using the Israeli Uzi, M-16 and an MP5 A3. What a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >machine guns. So I can shoot them, but I can't own them. If I could, I'd >take the MP5 N. I shot a few machine guns in Las Vegas a few years ago, I was up next for the MP5 when my friend "broke" it...
...Rather enjoyed the Thompson, though it is a real dreadnought.
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