Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / September 2004
Purchase Advice Please
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tech27 - 30 Aug 2004 21:31 GMT I'm looking at buying a 1981 308GTSi. The asking price is $39k Canadian, or about $29,000 US.
I believe that this is a fair price for the car which has just under 22k miles and has had the belts done at 19K miles. Looks very clean in and out, appears to have sound body and mechanicals.
I'm just concerned that this is the infamous Bosch K fuel injected model that dropped hp to 205. Since I can't test drive it I'm wondering if the driving experience will be satisfying. It would be my first Ferrari. I currently own a 2003 BMW M5, and an 87 race prepped M3.
Lastly, why does the speedo only go to 80MPH at about 2 o'clock, with a redline type line from there on?
Any advice and comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
F2004: 12 of 14* - 30 Aug 2004 23:17 GMT >I'm looking at buying a 1981 308GTSi. The asking price is $39k Canadian, or >about $29,000 US. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I'm just concerned that this is the infamous Bosch K fuel injected model >that dropped hp to 205. It is. Save for a QV.
>Since I can't test drive it I'm wondering if the >driving experience will be satisfying. It would be my first Ferrari. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Any advice and comments would be greatly appreciated. If you can't test drive it you shouldn't buy it. If you can't have it assessed by a Ferrari specialist don't buy it.
A "$30k Ferrari" can easily turn into a "$60k nightmare".
Iain Miller - 30 Aug 2004 23:29 GMT > I'm looking at buying a 1981 308GTSi. The asking price is $39k Canadian, or > about $29,000 US. > > I believe that this is a fair price for the car which has just under 22k > miles and has had the belts done at 19K miles. Belts are (something like) every 25K miles OR every 2 years - suggest you check when the belts were done.
>Looks very clean in and out, appears to have sound body and mechanicals. Looks can be deceiving - get it checked out thoroughly by someone who knows what they are looking at. (For reference see MCPD's website & look up the section entitled "The Horror")
> I'm just concerned that this is the infamous Bosch K fuel injected model > that dropped hp to 205. Since I can't test drive it I'm wondering if the > driving experience will be satisfying. It would be my first Ferrari. I > currently own a 2003 BMW M5, and an 87 race prepped M3. Its a 23 year old car - it won't handle or go like either of your Beemers - then again it is a Ferrari ;-) (Ya either get that - or you don't). The Ferrari driving experience is like no other. If you want something that's going to leave your M5 behind then 355 is your start point - and even then there may not be much in it.
> Lastly, why does the speedo only go to 80MPH at about 2 o'clock, with a > redline type line from there on? No Idea
> Any advice and comments would be greatly appreciated. Spend the extra money on a QV or, beter still, a late 328.
I.
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 00:12 GMT > Looks can be deceiving - get it checked out thoroughly by someone who knows > what they are looking at. (For reference see MCPD's website & look up the > section entitled "The Horror") Will do. Where can I find it?
> Its a 23 year old car - it won't handle or go like either of your Beemers - > then again it is a Ferrari ;-) (Ya either get that - or you don't). I certainly do. That's my problem. (-: PS-FYI Bimmers are the cars, BEEMERS are the motorcycles.
The
> Ferrari driving experience is like no other. If you want something that's > going to leave your M5 behind then 355 is your start point - and even then > there may not be much in it. I never expected that kind of performance, I was just wondering about the driving experience in a (as you put it) a 23 year old car. As we all know, going very fast is possible with $10k Honda and $50k of mods.
> > Lastly, why does the speedo only go to 80MPH at about 2 o'clock, with a > > redline type line from there on? > > No Idea Graphic Top Speed Limiter??
> > Any advice and comments would be greatly appreciated. > > Spend the extra money on a QV or, beter still, a late 328. ............or an Enzo? How much do you think I could get for a kidney? o-:
Thanks for the input.
matt borland - 31 Aug 2004 03:41 GMT "tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in
> > > Lastly, why does the speedo only go to 80MPH at about 2 o'clock, with a > > > redline type line from there on? That car was built during the dark days when 85mph speedos were becoming commonplace even in performance cars (and a few motorcycles IIRC). I can't remember if it was an insurance thing or what but I remember that several cars back then got the ridiculous speedos and the magazines bitched about it in almost every article.
A 205hp sportscar will feel good at first but disappointing over time, I suspect. When you decide to accelerate hard to get that pesky tailgating SUV off your back and he floors it and keeps with you you'll want to push the thing off a cliff.
I'd still be tempted by a Testarossa, if properly serviced. They do cost more to service though. For 512TR money you could get a killer Boxer, which still has my heart...
Drive a few examples before making any final decisions.
-Matt- "..."
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 05:19 GMT > A 205hp sportscar will feel good at first but disappointing > over time, I suspect. When you decide to accelerate hard > to get that pesky tailgating SUV off your back a.s?
and he floors
> it and keeps with you you'll want to push the thing off a cliff. The car or the SUV?
> I'd still be tempted by a Testarossa, if properly serviced. They > do cost more to service though. For 512TR money you could > get a killer Boxer, which still has my heart... Do you mean the dog or the Porsche Boxster?
> Drive a few examples before making any final decisions. Yeah right. Except for buying privately few dealers seem to be willing to let you test drive a Ferrari or Lambo. At least that's been my experience. Have you or others found this to be different? Maybe it's just a Canadian thing. I've test driven many cars (Infinity, Lexus, etc.) and every time I have to take the salesperson with me, (not that I care, except they never shut up and are always telling you to turn right here, next left, etc. When I went to test drive any BMW (including the M5 I bought), they let me go by myself. In fact, I was expecting the guy to come with me for the M5 drive. I sat there for 10 minutes in the car until he came out and asked me if something was wrong and why wasn't I gone. (-;
MC - 31 Aug 2004 06:33 GMT > In fact, I was expecting the guy to come with me for the M5 > drive. I sat there for 10 minutes in the car until he came out and asked me > if something was wrong and why wasn't I gone. (-; I love the M5. It's always been my favorite BMW. Which is far below the least of the Ferraris on my list, but it's still a damn good car.
MC
04 C5 Black Coupe - 31 Aug 2004 07:21 GMT > > In fact, I was expecting the guy to come with me for the M5 > > drive. I sat there for 10 minutes in the car until he came out and asked me [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > MC At least up until now. The new ones are supposed to have a ten cylinder engine mated to iDrive, and the eyebrow/rear bustle Bangle treatment. I feel they've lost their way. But the prior M5 is about as good a daily driver as one who needs to carry passengers could hope for, assuming a new Masaerati Quattraporte is out of the question.....
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 14:51 GMT > At least up until now. The new ones are supposed to have a ten cylinder > engine mated to iDrive, and the eyebrow/rear bustle Bangle treatment. I > feel they've lost their way. But the prior M5 is about as good a daily > driver as one who needs to carry passengers could hope for, assuming a new > Masaerati Quattraporte is out of the question..... The E39 M5 has become more desirable since the introduction of the new M5 and the prices and availability have gone up/dropped.
Main reasons for this are: 1-Body styling not to everyone's taste. 2-Price is significantly higher. 3-V10 will be more expensive to insure. 4-Only comes with SMG, no stick.
For some people, all or some of the above will affect their buying decisions. Right after the new model was announced, most dealers quickly sold off their inventory of new 03/04 E39 M5's.
MC - 31 Aug 2004 19:37 GMT > Only comes with SMG, no stick. I definitely don't like that option. That car was made to have a manual transmission. Something is amiss at BMW.
MC
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 19:49 GMT > > Only comes with SMG, no stick. > > I definitely don't like that option. That car was made to have a manual > transmission. Something is amiss at BMW. > > MC Many wish that it WAS an OPTION!
TigerRace1 - 31 Aug 2004 23:48 GMT <<I definitely don't like that option. That car was made to have a manual transmission. Something is amiss at BMW.>>
The SMG is a manual transmission. Or did you mean to refer to the stick shift interface? Just for the record, the SMG is like the Ferrari paddle shifter and NOT like the Porch Tiptronic.
C.
MC - 01 Sep 2004 02:19 GMT > <<I definitely don't like that option. That car was made to have a manual > transmission. Something is amiss at BMW.>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > C. Well, I didn't know that about the SMG, but I would prefer a stick shift interface for that car. All the M5s I've been in had a stick and I'm just being biased by what I know.
MC
tech27 - 01 Sep 2004 15:17 GMT > Well, I didn't know that about the SMG, but I would prefer a stick shift > interface for that car. All the M5s I've been in had a stick and I'm > just being biased by what I know. > > MC I try to keep an open mind. While there is much to be said for the familiar stick/clutch experience some people are just biased against progress. Others feel that not using a clutch somehow impinges on their masculinity. Most have not driven with SMG. Those that have and make the effort to use it properly find it is quite amazing, others do not.
While I doubt that the BMW SMG is on par with the sophisticated systems used by F1 cars, it does prove that the technology can be implemented at the highest performance level. The underlying rationalization is that at F1 speeds and driving demands, the driver can maximize performance by being freed from clutching, which can also save the clutch when shifting is so fast it would take superhuman reaction time to achieve the shifts with human intervention.
This is just another technical marvel that is just beginning to mature. Another major leap forward is the new Bugatti concept car that gets 1001 hp from a V16 without blowing up the engine or requiring a 500 gallon fuel tank to supply the theoretically required 5 gallons per minute (just a guess-I've forgotten the exact number) that would be required to generate that much energy.
F2004: 12 of 14* - 01 Sep 2004 16:44 GMT >This is just another technical marvel that is just beginning to mature. >Another major leap forward is the new Bugatti concept car that gets 1001 hp >from a V16 without blowing up the engine or requiring a 500 gallon fuel tank >to supply the theoretically required 5 gallons per minute (just a guess-I've >forgotten the exact number) that would be required to generate that much >energy. "Power". ...Required to generate that much power.
The fuel embodies the energy, an engine converts that energy to useable power.
If 5gal/min to generate 1001hp is the theoretical minimum, it should actually take quite a bit more, as the Otto cycle engine is at best only ~10% efficient, iirc...
tech27 - 01 Sep 2004 19:52 GMT > >This is just another technical marvel that is just beginning to mature. > >Another major leap forward is the new Bugatti concept car that gets 1001 hp [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > actually take quite a bit more, as the Otto cycle engine is at best > only ~10% efficient, iirc... IIRC their web site examples says the engine is 35% efficient, meaning that 65% of the potential energy is lost to heat, friction, etc. I'm in no position to comment on that.
TigerRace1 - 01 Sep 2004 20:29 GMT <<Others feel that not using a clutch somehow impinges on their masculinity.>>
That's just stupid considering the fact that the biggest studs in racing use paddle shifters.
<<While I doubt that the BMW SMG is on par with the sophisticated systems used by F1 cars...>>
250 ms compared to 10 ms...
<< it does prove that the technology can be implemented at the highest performance level.>>
The shifter in the Aston Martin is a step above the SMG.
C.
tech27 - 01 Sep 2004 21:15 GMT > <<Others feel that not using a clutch somehow impinges on their masculinity.>> > > That's just stupid considering the fact that the biggest studs in racing use > paddle shifters. Sure, but they are all gay, right? (-;
> <<While I doubt that the BMW SMG is on par with the sophisticated systems used > by F1 cars...>> > > 250 ms compared to 10 ms... Okay, now I'm sure.
< it does prove that the technology can be implemented at the highest
> performance level.>> > > The shifter in the Aston Martin is a step above the SMG. Great. Let's put a Ferrari styled body on an M5 with the Aston shifter. Don't forget the nitrous and off-road tires.
TigerRace1 - 01 Sep 2004 21:31 GMT <<Sure, but they are all gay, right?>>
I bet that's what a lot of guys would like to think.
<<Great. Let's put a Ferrari styled body on an M5 with the Aston shifter. Don't forget the nitrous and off-road tires.>>
Somebody would buy it.
C.
tech27 - 01 Sep 2004 23:45 GMT > <<Sure, but they are all gay, right?>> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > C. The Cayenne Kids would be lined up.
F2004: 12 of 14* - 31 Aug 2004 22:15 GMT The last two para's are where the meat is.
>> At least up until now. The new ones are supposed to have a ten cylinder >> engine mated to iDrive, and the eyebrow/rear bustle Bangle treatment. I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Right after the new model was announced, most dealers quickly sold off their >inventory of new 03/04 E39 M5's. NEW YORK TIMES: BEHIND THE WHEEL August 13, 2004
2004 BMW 645Ci: Atkins Friendly, but Hardly Organic
By JEFF SABATINI
LOW-CARB mania seems to know no limits. The other day I saw an ad proclaiming that peanuts are low in carbohydrates. Who knew? And who can fault peanut farmers for marketing the tasty allergen like so many other trendy food items: low-carb chocolate, low-carb potatoes and even low-carb water? (Yes, the water exists, marketed by Speedo.)
So this is my pitch to BMW: Why not slap a "low carb" label on that new 6 Series?
Like the Atkins/South Beach craze that convinced many dieters they can eat lots of fat and still stay fit, this jewel in BMW's product crown turns the company's ethos upside down, trading sporting efficiency for gratuitious excess.
Big car, big motor, big price - the perfect choice for the sorts of people I see leaving the buns off their bacon double cheeseburgers - that is, middle-aged guys with more money than, well, physical fitness.
It is a car for those possessed by an all-consuming desire to "have whatever he's having," and these days, that order tends to be for a Bimmer. Sales of BMW's in the United States have risen 4 percent this year, through July.
Americans seem to have largely forgotten that this juggernaut started four decades ago with the small, light 2002 sport sedan powered by a four-cylinder engine. Now BMW has shelved plans to introduce its small 1 Series car here, as the company wallows in its bigger-is-better philosophy with a growing product range that includes two sport utility wagons and cars that are literally becoming larger. Successive generations of its bread-and-butter sport sedans have been growing, leading some cynics to joke that BMW stands for "bringing more weight."
The new 6 Series follows that trend, reintroducing a model designation last used in 1989. But the new car is based on the current 5 and 7 Series sedans and shares components, but not sheet metal, with both. My test car was a 645Ci coupe (a convertible is also offered) with a six-speed manual transmission, carrying a suggested retail price just $5 shy of $70,000. Optional equipment bumped the total to $75,995, and included a number of "why aren't these things standard on a $70,000 car" items: heated seats, heated steering wheel, six-CD changer. The car also had BMW's obstacle-warning system and the sport package, which included 19-inch wheels, sport seats and "active" steering.
Sadly, the standard features do include BMW's maddening iDrive interface, which controls the stereo, climate control, navigation system and a host of other electronic features. There is no "iDrive-delete" option, and it is somewhat telling that iDrive is not listed on the window sticker under "comfort and convenience features." (The sticker does carry the once-true BMW marketing slogan: "The Ultimate Driving Machine.")
Before I let that $70,000 price slide past, it is worth pointing out that although this car is a lot more 5 Series than 7, its sticker is equivalent to the one on the big 745i. A 545i with a six-speed is "just" $58,300.
Need I mention that you can buy two 350-horsepower Pontiac GTO's for what you'll shell out for a 6 Series? Probably not - the Bimmer plays in a different league, if only because of its price tag - but putting that $70,000 sticker in perspective is important, as it carries with it certain expectations.
For one, a car demanding that kind of coin should look exciting enough to make every wage slave in America vow to get a second job in order to buy one someday. On this level, the 6 Series more or less succeeds. The car is the most attractive execution of BMW's "flame surfacing" exterior design language to date, with an imposing presence. Yet I can still imagine a not-too-far-off future in which short-order line cooks will drive ragged, 200,000-mile 645Ci's to their burger-grilling jobs.
And yes, the styling will look dated then, just as mid-1980's Chevrolet Camaros do today.
Like those very same pony cars, the 645Ci is powered by a rumbling and sometimes stumbling V-8. (BMW recently recalled the 6 Series for engine stalling.) With 4.4 liters of displacement, it makes 325 horsepower and 330 pounds-feet of torque. This means the nearly 3,800-pound coupe can sprint to 60 miles an hour in 5.3 seconds, according to Car and Driver magazine. While this is more than enough straight-line acceleration to impress anyone whose business suit isn't tailored in Nomex, it is the same sort of cheap thrill that can be had in a $25,000 Mustang.
My BMW's clutch was also reminiscent of many a Mustang, with a heaviness and abrupt engagement that made it hard to shift smoothly.
When I put the 645Ci onto roads that actually required driving input, the experience of hustling such a big car around turns and over hills left me impressed with the cleverness of the engineers and their disregard for the laws of physics. But I still felt mostly disengaged.
Though the 6 Series has seemingly unlimited grip, its steering is entirely too vague, a feeling not helped by the thick cake doughnut of a steering wheel. While other car manufacturers might enlist Nardi or Momo to design a high-performance steering wheel, BMW seems to have gone with Nerf.
The sport seats, on the other hand, are absolutely perfect in every way. If only the rest of the interior were so comfortable.
A binnacle atop the dashboard contains the iDrive display and dominates the forward view. This driver sits curiously low; this position, combined with the thickness and curvature of the doors, led me to paranoid delusions that the car was caving in on itself.
A cruise control lever conveniently protrudes from the left side of the wheel, in just the right place to make repeated contact with your knee, turning it off. Another needless reinvention, the two-stage turn signal that made its debut on the 2002 7 Series, is here, too.
Abhorrent noises are part of the equation: a cellphone-style chime upon starting the car, synthesized beeps from the parking assist when anything is even slightly close to the bumpers and an attention-grabbing "cheep" when the key fob locks the doors.
All that can be said about the back seat is that it is there. BMW can't expect anyone to use it much.
With kitschy design and glitchy technology placed ahead of BMW's traditional emphasis on driving enjoyment, this car may wear the brand's blue-and-white roundel, but it is not rewarding to drive - at least not in the way Bimmers have long rewarded drivers, building a strong reputation in the process. Think low-carb soy crisps versus golden corn tortilla chips.
When all is said and done, none of my frustrations with the 6 Series - yes, even including iDrive, which is actually a rather brilliant interface device, just one that has no business in an automobile - are what cause me to truly, deeply dislike the car.
No, the 6 Series rubs me the wrong way because as a BMW owner and enthusiast I do not like where this car is taking the marque. The 645Ci feels even bigger than it is, and provides a driving experience that is isolated and self-indulgent. These traits are the exact opposite of what one has come to expect from a BMW.
In the United States, BMW has always had two types of customers: enthusiasts who bought the cars for what they could do, and status-conscious buyers who cared only for the prestige of the name. Until very recently, the company has worked hard to satisfy both camps, but the 6 Series is overwhelmingly a trendy car for the followers of fads.
It is perhaps the most egregious example of what BMW has become over the last few model years, a manufacturer of overwrought, technology-laden behemoths, cars that I find obnoxious in both their presence and their operation.
INSIDE TRACK: More filling, less taste.
MC - 31 Aug 2004 19:35 GMT > At least up until now. The new ones are supposed to have a ten cylinder > engine mated to iDrive, and the eyebrow/rear bustle Bangle treatment. I > feel they've lost their way. But the prior M5 is about as good a daily > driver as one who needs to carry passengers could hope for, assuming a new > Masaerati Quattraporte is out of the question..... Ironically, I've seen dozens of "spy shots" and even factory pre-release photos of the new M5, and I love it. I don't know what's wrong with me. Yes, the Bangle treatment is getting tiresome, but for some reason the new M5 is evil-looking enough to get over it. I don't know about the engine being "mated" to IDrive - I thought that was the name of that hideous interior-controls system that sucks so bad?
Either way, a V-10 in that car has to be hot. All the other sh.t in the interior can be gotten rid of somehow. I still like the car.
MC
Phil - 31 Aug 2004 20:50 GMT >Either way, a V-10 in that car has to be hot. All the other sh.t in the >interior can be gotten rid of somehow. I still like the car. > >MC When I read this, I picture you holding a lit torch, with a real devilish smile on your face as the car is parked behind you.
Phil
MC - 31 Aug 2004 21:50 GMT >>Either way, a V-10 in that car has to be hot. All the other sh.t in the >>interior can be gotten rid of somehow. I still like the car. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Phil Yeah, but I wouldn't touch anything on the outside, undercarriage, or in the engine bay.
:-) MC
J.C. - 02 Sep 2004 09:21 GMT > IDrive - I thought that was the name of that > hideous interior-controls system that sucks so bad? It is, and it's indeed a HUGE pain in the a.s. I really don't understand how engineers who were known to produce the most ergonomic cars in the world could ever think of designing such a lame system.
 Signature J.C.
F2004: 12 of 14* - 02 Sep 2004 13:47 GMT >> IDrive - I thought that was the name of that >> hideous interior-controls system that sucks so bad? > >It is, and it's indeed a HUGE pain in the a.s. I really don't understand >how engineers who were known to produce the most ergonomic cars in the >world could ever think of designing such a lame system. The device that coined the term IRK-onomics, - Car & Driver magazine.
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 14:43 GMT > I love the M5. It's always been my favorite BMW. Which is far below > the least of the Ferraris on my list, but it's still a damn good car. > > MC Especially if you need to taxi 2 kids in child seats! (-;
F2004: 12 of 14* - 31 Aug 2004 18:57 GMT >> I love the M5. It's always been my favorite BMW. Which is far below >> the least of the Ferraris on my list, but it's still a damn good car. > >Especially if you need to taxi 2 kids in child seats! (-; You're Ferrari shopping and haven't even gotten the Swedish nanny yet?
...Priorities man, priorities.
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 19:48 GMT > >> I love the M5. It's always been my favorite BMW. Which is far below > >> the least of the Ferraris on my list, but it's still a damn good car. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ...Priorities man, priorities. The Ferrai is so that the Swede teen and I can go "shopping" on the weekends. (-;
04 C5 Black Coupe - 31 Aug 2004 07:19 GMT > Yeah right. Except for buying privately few dealers seem to be willing to > let you test drive a Ferrari or Lambo. At least that's been my experience. > Have you or others found this to be different? Two different dealers have allowed me to test drive a Ferrari 328 and a Ferrari Testarossa. One friend allowed me to drive his BB, but I haven't found a dealer who will let me take out a brand new Ferrari. Perhaps it is perfectly clear that I won't be buying a new Ferrari?
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 14:46 GMT > > Yeah right. Except for buying privately few dealers seem to be willing to > > let you test drive a Ferrari or Lambo. At least that's been my experience. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > let me take out a brand new Ferrari. > Perhaps it is perfectly clear that I won't be buying a new Ferrari? I can understand that. Too many dreamers would be out just to get 10 minutes behind the wheel. Besides, you should be reasonably assured that a new car (nevermind a Ferrari), won't have a dead cylinder, etc. But you'd certainly want to drive a 20 year old car to see if it feels right. Without a test drive it's only slightly better than buying one off the web based on the pretty pictures.
matt borland - 31 Aug 2004 14:23 GMT > > A 205hp sportscar will feel good at first but disappointing > > over time, I suspect. When you decide to accelerate hard > > to get that pesky tailgating SUV off your back > > a.s? That too.
> and he floors > > it and keeps with you you'll want to push the thing off a cliff. > > The car or the SUV? Both, possibly. I meant the car, but after I posted saw I didn't make it clear...
> > I'd still be tempted by a Testarossa, if properly serviced. They > > do cost more to service though. For 512TR money you could > > get a killer Boxer, which still has my heart... > > Do you mean the dog or the Porsche Boxster? I mean Ferrari 512BB/512BBi (BB stands for Berlinetta Boxer).
> > Drive a few examples before making any final decisions. > > Yeah right. Except for buying privately few dealers seem to be willing to > let you test drive a Ferrari or Lambo. At least that's been my experience. > Have you or others found this to be different? Maybe it's just a Canadian > thing. I'd just be assertive and say "look, I'm not buying a car I've never driven. You can let me hear it run all you want but that doesn't tell me if it pulls to the right, follows every groove in the road, shakes through the steering wheel, or doesn't have as much power as it should. Now are you going to let me drive it or do I take my money and spend it with someone else?"
Car salesmen can be pricks but they still want your money.
-Matt- "..."
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 14:55 GMT > Both, possibly. I meant the car, but after I posted > saw I didn't make it clear... I was just kidding. (-;
> > > I'd still be tempted by a Testarossa, if properly serviced. They > > > do cost more to service though. For 512TR money you could [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I mean Ferrari 512BB/512BBi (BB stands for Berlinetta Boxer). Just kidding again.
> I'd just be assertive and say "look, I'm not buying a car I've > never driven. You can let me hear it run all you want but [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -Matt- "..." Yeah, maybe I should just walk in with a suitcase full of cash, plop it on his desk, and tell him to write up the deal as long as I can have a 50 mile, 60 minute no questions asked return.
matt borland - 31 Aug 2004 14:51 GMT > > Both, possibly. I meant the car, but after I posted > > saw I didn't make it clear... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Just kidding again. This subtle Canuck humor confuses me... I'd better go back and watch some Kids in the Hall reruns as a remedial...
> > I'd just be assertive and say "look, I'm not buying a car I've > > never driven. You can let me hear it run all you want but [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > his desk, and tell him to write up the deal as long as I can have a 50 mile, > 60 minute no questions asked return. Now yer talkin'.
-Matt- "..."
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 17:31 GMT "> This subtle Canuck humor confuses me... I'd better
> go back and watch some Kids in the Hall reruns as > a remedial... You'd be better off to study some Monty Python material, then move on to Fawlty Towers and Ripping Yarns. Once you've mastered that, try your hand at some very droll humour such as Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister.
> > Yeah, maybe I should just walk in with a suitcase full of cash, plop it on > > his desk, and tell him to write up the deal as long as I can have a 50 > mile, > > 60 minute no questions asked return. > > Now yer talkin'. And I wasn't even kidding. Have you ever heard the legendary (and true) story of Canadian rocker Ronnie Hawkins and this first purchase of a Rolls?
TigerRace1 - 01 Sep 2004 20:32 GMT <<A 205hp sportscar will feel good at first but disappointing over time, I suspect.>>
Hey, hey, hey there! The only time that I am *disappointed* with my little 200 hp Mustang is when I get out of my 550+ hp Mustang.
<<When you decide to accelerate hard to get that pesky tailgating SUV off your back and he floors it and keeps with you you'll want to push the thing off a cliff.>>
A friend of mine driving his 360 just got dusted by some guy driving a souped up Cayenne. Doesn't take away anything from the Ferrari as far as I'm concerned.
<<For 512TR money you could get a killer Boxer, which still has my heart...>>
Indeed.
C.
matt borland - 01 Sep 2004 20:46 GMT > <<A 205hp sportscar will feel good at first but disappointing over time, I > suspect.>> > > Hey, hey, hey there! The only time that I am *disappointed* with my little 200 > hp Mustang is when I get out of my 550+ hp Mustang. Pfffft. Chicks only need 200hp...
*looks around innocently*
What?
Hee-hee-hee....
> <<When you decide to accelerate hard > to get that pesky tailgating SUV off your back and he floors it and keeps with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > up Cayenne. Doesn't take away anything from the Ferrari as far as I'm > concerned. I wouldn't be bothered so much by a Cayenne, but when something common like a Durango can push me down the road in my Ferrari I'll be wanting more power.
Half the joy of driving a performance car on the street (for me) is having the ability to just get the hell away from the groups of idiots jockeying for position by giving 'er a short blast of throttle and finding some open road ahead of it all.
-Matt- "..."
tech27 - 01 Sep 2004 21:22 GMT > > Half the joy of driving a performance car on the street > (for me) is having the ability to just get the hell away [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -Matt- "..." The other half of the joy would be to be able to lay down some oil and nails a la James Bond style as you pull away. That would keep the chasers behind you.
TigerRace1 - 01 Sep 2004 21:30 GMT <<Pfffft. Chicks only need 200hp...
*looks around innocently*
What?>>
Uh-huh. You saw my little weekend driver at Mid-Ohio. I said 550 PLUS hp.
<<Half the joy of driving a performance car on the street (for me) is having the ability to just get the hell away from the groups of idiots jockeying for position by giving 'er a short blast of throttle and finding some open road ahead of it all.>>
Yeah, but... you can do that in a Honda and it still won't be a Ferrari.
C.
matt borland - 01 Sep 2004 21:51 GMT > <<Pfffft. Chicks only need 200hp... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Uh-huh. You saw my little weekend driver at Mid-Ohio. I said 550 PLUS hp. Yes I did. Very impressive car.
> <<Half the joy of driving a performance car on the street (for me) is having > the ability to just get the hell away from the groups of idiots jockeying for > position by giving 'er a short blast of throttle and finding some open road > ahead of it all.>> > > Yeah, but... you can do that in a Honda and it still won't be a Ferrari. I agree. Still, when the guy in the Accord V6 can smoke me I...
Bah. You know what I mean and I know what you mean...
-Matt- :::headed to NYC in 2 days:::
tech27 - 01 Sep 2004 21:17 GMT > <<A 205hp sportscar will feel good at first but disappointing over time, I > suspect.>> > > Hey, hey, hey there! The only time that I am *disappointed* with my little 200 > hp Mustang is when I get out of my 550+ hp Mustang. No offense, but I'd be disappointed getting into ANY Mustang.
> <<When you decide to accelerate hard > to get that pesky tailgating SUV off your back and he floors it and keeps with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > up Cayenne. Doesn't take away anything from the Ferrari as far as I'm > concerned. Of course not. The Cayenne rates only a 2 on the 1-10 "cars to help you get laid with" scale. The Ferrari is the benchmark reference.
> <<For 512TR money you could get a killer Boxer, which still has my heart...>> > > Indeed. Any your wallet? o-:
TigerRace1 - 02 Sep 2004 20:21 GMT <<No offense, but I'd be disappointed getting into ANY Mustang.>>
No offense, but you speak from a point of ignorance. Check out this Mustang:
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/featuredvehicles/138_0312_tiger/
Please ignore the hideous picture of me on the first page. The wind out at Willow Springs about peels the paint off of cars.
<<Of course not. The Cayenne rates only a 2 on the 1-10 "cars to help you get laid with" scale. The Ferrari is the benchmark reference.>>
Well, duh.
<<Any your wallet?>>
The moment that I find reliable hand controls that will work on a Boxer, I'm starting some serious shopping.
C.
tech27 - 03 Sep 2004 05:06 GMT > <<No offense, but I'd be disappointed getting into ANY Mustang.>> > > No offense, but you speak from a point of ignorance. Check out this Mustang: > > http://www.mustang50magazine.com/featuredvehicles/138_0312_tiger/ I never said that I would be disappointed driving it. It certainly looks like a fun car to drive. But I would still be disappointed - at least with myself-since I really dislike 99% of all American cars and the mentality they represent.
No offense - some people like anchovies, some just don't.
TigerRace1 - 06 Sep 2004 23:12 GMT <<I never said that I would be disappointed driving it. It certainly looks like a fun car to drive.>>
Oh, well. If a car is just *fun* then what's the point?
<<But I would still be disappointed - at least with myself-since I really dislike 99% of all American cars and the mentality they represent.>>
Oh, pray tell. What *mentality* is the issue here? And how is your prejudice not it?
<<No offense - some people like anchovies, some just don't.>>
ROFL! Why would I take offense from someone who is as painfully ignorant and weirdly prejudiced in this regard?
C. :::who will take the Ford that kicks a.s over the Ferrari on the track for a third of the cost anyday:::
Paul Duffin - 10 Sep 2004 16:32 GMT > C. :::who will take the Ford that kicks a.s over the Ferrari on the > track for a third of the cost anyday::: BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
Tifosi308 the Serial Number Geek - 10 Sep 2004 17:03 GMT Mr Capri pants wrote..
>BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "If she weighs the same as a duck...."
T30newt
TigerRace1 - 11 Sep 2004 19:50 GMT <<"If she weighs the same as a duck....">>
It's a fair cop.
C.
Tifosi308 the Serial Number Geek - 13 Sep 2004 00:33 GMT TigerRace1 wrote in a Connie Booth style voice...
><<"If she weighs the same as a duck....">> > >It's a fair cop. Well played....
T308
TigerRace1 - 13 Sep 2004 16:23 GMT <<Well played....>>
We crack ourselves up.
C.
Phil - 31 Aug 2004 15:05 GMT >I'm looking at buying a 1981 308GTSi. The asking price is $39k Canadian, or >about $29,000 US. > >I believe that this is a fair price for the car which has just under 22k >miles and has had the belts done at 19K miles. Looks very clean in and out, >appears to have sound body and mechanicals. No, it's too much. In U.S. dollars in this market, the injected 308 should cost about $25k, plus or minus $3k depending upon the work it needs.
I highly recomend you hire a professional, experienced Ferrari person to check the car out.
>I'm just concerned that this is the infamous Bosch K fuel injected model >that dropped hp to 205. Since I can't test drive it I'm wondering if the Yes, it is.
>driving experience will be satisfying. It would be my first Ferrari. I >currently own a 2003 BMW M5, and an 87 race prepped M3. The 308 won't touch either bimmer in "go power". Handling will be the same, but the 308 will have a different feeling and will break free in a turn differently because of the mid-engine. The bimmers win on braking hands down.
>Lastly, why does the speedo only go to 80MPH at about 2 o'clock, with a >redline type line from there on? A Ralph Nader leftover. All NA spec cars in this time frame had 80mph speedos.
>Any advice and comments would be greatly appreciated. The injected cars are an enigma.
Here's my take.
For a not so expensive entrance price, you get timeless styling, you get the "F" badge, you get a feeling when driving that can't be matched.
But you also get a severely unpowered car. This however, can be corrected. You can't put QV heads on an injected car, but you can do a few things such as change the ignition system altogether, which will buy you about 30hp for about $2k US. You can also add a turbo or intercooler, a bit more costly, and you need to get someone who really knows what they are doing, but with minimal boost, something that requires little or no additional cooling, you can easily buy upto 300hp. The stock engine is bullet proof, and as long as you are not attempting to obtain 400hp+, nothing should explode.
However, all that said, you would be approaching $40kUS, which brings you to the next decision. Do you just buy a QV?
If you go with the '81 injected car, and you can live the the 200hp for awhile, and you enjoy projects, there's your answer. If not, wait and go with the QV - make sure it's an 84 or 85.
Some folks disagree with making modifications like I described above. I don't. I have an 84QV, but have been tossing around the idea for a couple years now of getting an 81/82 and making soem significant changes.
See this link for starters:
http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1002.htm
Good luck, keep us posted. Phil
tech27 - 31 Aug 2004 17:36 GMT "Phil" <Phil@somewhere.com> wrote in message
> The injected cars are an enigma. I thought they were a Pininfarina.
> Here's my take.> http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1002.htm
> Good luck, keep us posted. > Phil TigerRace1 - 31 Aug 2004 23:48 GMT <<I thought they were a Pininfarina.>>
He's a funny guy.
C.
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