Car Forum / Ferrari Cars / December 2004
Duffin's Europe Trip
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LIW - 24 Dec 2004 18:46 GMT I just happened to look at the photographs of Duffin (and Gretchen) travelling over the Swiss Alps in his 308. What a terrific trip that looked like!!
I'm curious as to whether the performance of the 308 changed much in response to "cold air induction" or "air starvation". I read about these as theoretical changes, but was curious as to how a real 308 performed in those real conditions.
I'm also curious as to what tires you had on the car in those snow pictures, and how they performed.
Happy Holidays, Larry
Paul - 24 Dec 2004 19:03 GMT > I just happened to look at the photographs of Duffin (and Gretchen) > travelling over the Swiss Alps in his 308. What a terrific trip that > looked like!! Damn straight!
> I'm curious as to whether the performance of the 308 changed much in > response to "cold air induction" or "air starvation". I read about > these as theoretical changes, but was curious as to how a real 308 > performed in those real conditions. Well, she does seem to fly, but that's probably a rather emotional and subjective evaluation :-)
Sorry I can't be more scientific about it, but what I can say with confidence is that at great altitude she does miss, pop and bang a bit, which can be a tad distracting mid-bend.
I'll tell you this though, Ferraris are MADE to drive in the Alps!
> I'm also curious as to what tires you had on the car in those snow > pictures, and how they performed. Goodyear Eagle F1s. On the ice the nose slid out gently at first, followed neatly by the arse. All very dramatic - even at the 5mph I was doing at the time (try sliding towards the edge of a chasm at *any* speed. Trust me, it tightens the ol' rectum).
The F1s are great tyres - I ran on the standard Michelins for years (until I could no longer source any) and then had to swap out the wheels.... I was sorry to lose the riding high '80s supercar tyre' look, but on the lower profile sections, she is much more 'taught' and inspires even more confidence than she used to (which I had thought would be imopossible).
Anyhoooooo.... sorry, Larry, I don't think I've been remotely informative. Guess you'll have to try it yourself one day :-)
-Paul
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
matt borland - 24 Dec 2004 20:11 GMT "Paul" <Paul@all.made.up.com> wrote in message
> Damn straight! I can't tell you how it warms my heart to see you type those words...
-Matt- "F**kin' A!"
Paul - 24 Dec 2004 20:16 GMT matt borland wrote:
> "Paul" <Paul@all.made.up.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -Matt- "F**kin' A!" You betcha!
-Paul
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
Harold Adrian Russell Philby - 27 Dec 2004 18:17 GMT >I just happened to look at the photographs of Duffin (and Gretchen) >travelling over the Swiss Alps in his 308. What a terrific trip that looked [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >as theoretical changes, but was curious as to how a real 308 performed in >those real conditions. OH! For F*ck's Sake...
There is _nothing_ even remotely "theoretical" about the actual effects of the reduced density of warmer air, and ambient air at higher altitudes, on the performance of naturally aspirated IC engines.
Warm air, rarified air: Less dense, less oxygen, reduced power.
SEE: Physical Chemistry For Dummies, at your local bookstore.
See Also: Empirical.
See, In Addition: The Complete Idiot's Guide To Carburetor Jetting.
Paul - 27 Dec 2004 18:46 GMT > OH! For F*ck's Sake... <sigh> Do you actually know which side of your bed is the right one to get out of in the morning?
> There is _nothing_ even remotely "theoretical" about the actual > effects of the reduced density of warmer air, and ambient air at [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > See, In Addition: The Complete Idiot's Guide To Carburetor Jetting. FYI, a 308 quattrovalvole is FI (althought the end results don't differ greatly)
Paul
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
LIW - 27 Dec 2004 21:02 GMT > > OH! For F*ck's Sake... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > FYI, a 308 quattrovalvole is FI (althought the end results don't differ > greatly) Why bother? His need to pontificate will not be easily swayed by either facts or actual first hand experience.
In any event. I really enjoyed your pictures, and I saw your former answer, which is really what I was wondering.
Next question. Do you find that the later 308 Quattrovole is much different in engine response than the early 328, if you've had a chance to do a hands on comparison? I've driven the 328, but not the 308.
Regards, Larry
Paul - 28 Dec 2004 13:08 GMT > Next question. Do you find that the later 308 Quattrovole is much > different in engine response than the early 328, if you've had a > chance to do a hands on comparison? I've driven the 328, but not > the 308. I'm afraid that I haven't driven a 328, but I have *some* experience in that I have both been a passenger in Iaiaiaiaiain's (great hangover cure) and have <cough> chased one or two, including Iaiaian's (note the gradual reduction in 'ia's - by the end of this post I might even write it correctly). Based on these slightly less than scientific comparisons, I would say that the 328 has an edge, but it is slight, and most pronounced at the top end. I doubt that scooting them about under 80-90mph would show much difference at all, but as you get towards and beyond 100, the longer legs on the 328 start to show.
I should add, that whilst my 308 is well run in, Iaiain's (nearly!) has still to reach it's first service, so things might still be a little tight in there. Also his probably doesn't reach full temperature on the way to the end of his road and back (some 500 metres), which might again have an effect.
(tee-hee!)
If you were looking to buy one or the other, I'd say:
308qv: great 70's style (chrome bits, groovy door release!), perhaps closer to the original design concept. Costs less than a 328 to purchase (but a little more to service - some parts being more 'unique than on the 328).
328: final tweak in the series, most 'sorted', bit faster, more 80's in appearance (but looks younger). Slightly more headroom (I'm told, but seemed about the same to me).
In conclusion, I'd say that when purchasing, an 'excellent' example of either is better than a 'good' example of the other. And thus, I have to say that I'd choose Iaian's over mine, were I buying afresh (but would I swap now, in the unlikely event that Iain [HOORAH!] offered.... hmmm.....
...tricky....
...very tricky...
...um...
-Paul
 Signature Http://www.redmist.freeserve.co.uk (Now featuring the a.a.f. directory)
LIW - 27 Dec 2004 20:56 GMT > >I just happened to look at the photographs of Duffin (and Gretchen) > >travelling over the Swiss Alps in his 308. What a terrific trip that looked [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > See, In Addition: The Complete Idiot's Guide To Carburetor Jetting. Harold:
You see, the difference between asking you the question, and asking Paul, is that he actually owns the car, and actually drove it over the passes. He can, and did, give me an actual answer of to both of my questions based upon his actual experience, which is what I asked.
You, as usual, gave some fuckwit condescension from your parlor book on less than steller insults, based, apparently on some deep seated need for attention.
Now, if you don't mind....... the grown ups are talking.....go back to your room and play with your carburetor jets.
Harold Adrian Russell Philby - 28 Dec 2004 17:04 GMT >> >I just happened to look at the photographs of Duffin (and Gretchen) >> >travelling over the Swiss Alps in his 308. What a terrific trip that looked [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >can, and did, give me an actual answer of to both of my questions based >upon his actual experience, which is what I asked. His actual experience, whether driving a 308 or a Yugo, is that the higher he got the less power his engine produced, as engines are usually rated at sea level and relatively cool temperatures to begin with..
>You, as usual, gave some fuckwit condescension from your parlor book on less >than steller insults, based, apparently on some deep seated need for >attention. Ignoring science will *eventually* make a fool of you.
>Now, if you don't mind....... the grown ups are talking.....go back to your >room and play with your carburetor jets. ...A car lover would know what they are.
LIW - 29 Dec 2004 04:55 GMT "Harold Adrian Russell Philby" <home.office@kremlin.co.ru> > >Now, if you don't mind....... the grown ups are talking.....go back to your
> >room and play with your carburetor jets. > > ...A car lover would know what they are. Let's see, I've rebuilt AFB 4 barrel carbs, changed jet kits on motorcyles, rebuilt the carbs including changing the jet sizes on my old Honda 750 four, replaced the centers on SUs and matched them with the old rubber hose. I kept my Datsun Roadster, MGBs, and Jaguar XKE tuned, and I still know where 5 degrees before top dead center is. I know where the points are inside the distributor cap, and enough to cover them with a plastic bag when it's raining. I know that the old Volkswagons die suddenly, and that means the fuel line, which isn't secured, has slipped off and a fire may soon follow. I've completely rebuilt a slant six engine, including having to rework the torque converter to clear the bell housing, and have had to figure out the wiring harness after a fire. I've bled brakes, pulled disks to have them turned, and replaced drum brakes. I've replaced exhaust systems, air induction systems, and added stronger anti-sway bars. I have my timing light in the garage, next to the telephone number for my current car dealerships.
Just because I don't work on cars these days, doesn't mean that I never did. It also doesn't mean, Mr. Science, that I don't know that as ambient air gets thinner cars slow down.
However, many cars use cold air induction to increase horsepower, so my actual question was whether the colder air offset the thinner air as far as power was concerned. I also didn't know how much the fuel injection compensates for the changes in air, and I suspect you don't either, since you didn't know that the Quatrovalve 308 had fuel injection.
See, the problem with your brand of condescension is that you don't bother to find out what people may know, or what they've done in their histories. You just butt into someone else's conversation in an effort to be demeaning. And ignorant effort, but an effort nonetheless.
It does not make you charming. And frankly, it is about to make you not worth responding to.
If that's your goal in your tone in responding to me, and to others on this newsgroup, then you're doing an admirable job.
Keep up the good work.
Harold Adrian Russell Philby - 29 Dec 2004 15:53 GMT >"Harold Adrian Russell Philby" <home.office@kremlin.co.ru> > >Now, if you >don't mind....... the grown ups are talking.....go back to your [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >light in the garage, next to the telephone number for my current car >dealerships. Such an "impressive" resume... And yet the effects of altitude are "theoretical"...
>Just because I don't work on cars these days, doesn't mean that I never did. >It also doesn't mean, Mr. Science, that I don't know that as ambient air >gets thinner cars slow down. ...Engines develop less power.
>However, many cars use cold air induction to increase horsepower, ...Attempt to reduce the loss associated with summer temperatures.
>so my >actual question was whether the colder air offset the thinner air as far as >power was concerned. PV=nRT, solve for the molar fraction of oxygen in air.
>I also didn't know how much the fuel injection >compensates for the changes in air, It does not. Just how would it?
>and I suspect you don't either, since >you didn't know that the Quatrovalve 308 had fuel injection. BZZZT
That I didn't address an unimportant fact is not at all relevant: The only thing that compensates for altitude is supercharging.
>See, the problem with your brand of condescension is that you don't bother >to find out what people may know, or what they've done in their histories. So just what do yo know? You think the effect of altitude on IC engines is, and I quote, merely "theoretical".
...Hardly erudite.
LIW - 29 Dec 2004 16:06 GMT "Harold Adrian Russell Philby" <home.office@kremlin.co.ru> wrote in message
> So just what do yo know? You think the effect of altitude on IC > engines is, and I quote, merely "theoretical". > > ...Hardly erudite. I know that I did 26 years of trial work before changing fields to do something that had less pretentious idiots, and that I no longer waste my time talking to them. You can rest your case, now. You've made the fold.
Au revoir Mr. Panache.
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