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Car Forum / Fiat Cars / December 2003Timing belt breakage
At the end of last week, our Tipo 1.4 broke the "distribution belt" and was towed back to the garage. They've now looked it over, installed a new belt, and checked all the various things, but the engine now makes a sort of fairly loud ticking noise, every <x> revs. This is presumably a Bad Thing[1]. I think they said something about a new cylinder head, and that this would need the engine removed, and not really be worth the money for a car just over 10 years old and with nearly 130.000 kilometers (81.000 miles). So, a) if this belt breaks, what sort of consequential damage are we talking about? Cylinder head and the valves and associated mechanical stuff?, or the cylinders and block as well? b) does this require removing the engine on a Tipo 1.4? and c) what wouls a typical junkyard-sourced price be for the components that need to be replaced? Jasper [1] If you can hear it over the rest of the engine noise, it's gotta be wearing surfaces. Sorry to hear about your bad news. I lost the cam belt, due to my own fault whilst replacing with a new one, on my old Tipo 1.6ie. The belt came adrift whilst the engine was idling. I bent two valves and only mildly. A bent valve requires a cyliner head removal. Assume you have bent all eight valves at ?20 per valve, and ?60 for a full head gasket kit and you have just about the worst parts only cost. IF? you lost the belt at high RPM and the engine was allowed to be continued to be driven by the cars inertia then you may have damaged some valve guides or even possibly some pistons. If only valves and gides are damaged then only the head needs to be removed. Your old head should easily be able to be sorted by a reputable machine shop who specialise in this. Damaged pistons are quite rare unless the valve head has been completely broken off and the head and possibly the stem have been deposited into the cylinder. The fact that your engine appears to run but sounds 'ticky' would lead me to conclude that you only have bent valves and possible guides. At your 81K miles you will have some valve guide wear that may warrant replacing them if you intend to keep the car for another 80 to 100K miles (bearing in mind you will need to take the cylinder head off to get the bent valves replaced.) About 5 to 10 hours is a typical labourcharge to fully sort a damaged cylinder head. Allow ?40 per hour. (NOT A MAIN DEALER RATE!) You could pay ?100 for a junk yard head and there is no knowing if that hasn't got burnet or bent valves, worn guides or valve stem oil seals. Using replacement is still going to take about 4 hours to replace. With the above in mind you have to decide if it is worth getting the cylinder head off the car and inspected for damage. This will also allow the piston crowns to be checked. To strip down for examination is only about 2.5 hours labour cost. If you are still happy with all other aspects of your Tipo then I would go for the strip and examination of the head and pitons crowns. If your garage is any way decent then you will get a fair and hopefully accurate assesment of the damage and cost to repair. Get it in writing before agreeing to any work though. If the quote is excessive the stall for awhile whilst you get some other quotes (based of the 1st assesment). I shouldn't cost much more that ?60 to get the car transported to another garage and the fact that your are prepared to do this will only make sure that the garage who did the original estimate are giving you a good estimate. Garages hate to lose work already under progress in their workshops. Kind of upsets their rythm and respectability. Nick ///// > At the end of last week, our Tipo 1.4 broke the "distribution belt" and > was towed back to the garage. They've now looked it over, installed a new [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > [1] If you can hear it over the rest of the engine noise, it's gotta be > wearing surfaces. the fact that you were able to replace the belt only and the engine still ran means you got away lightly, if valves bend the engine wont run, unless theres only about 1 or 2 bent valves instead of all 8 and even then we are talking about the ever so slightest bend. does the engine run smooth when its idling ??? if so i suspect all your valves are fine. the fact that you have a ticking noise at certain rpm could be an unrelated problem, however it may simply be your tappets (in the cylinder head) > At the end of last week, our Tipo 1.4 broke the "distribution belt" and > was towed back to the garage. They've now looked it over, installed a new [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > [1] If you can hear it over the rest of the engine noise, it's gotta be > wearing surfaces. >the fact that you were able to replace the belt only and the engine still >ran means you got away lightly, if valves bend the engine wont run, unless For the record, the mechanic replaced the belt and did some tuning of <whatever> (he didn't say what, exactly). >theres only about 1 or 2 bent valves instead of all 8 and even then we are >talking about the ever so slightest bend. >does the engine run smooth when its idling ??? if so i suspect all your >valves are fine. Nope. >the fact that you have a ticking noise at certain rpm could be an unrelated >problem, however it may simply be your tappets (in the cylinder head) Spent some more time with/in the car, and I think I know how to describe the sound better now. You know what 1- or 2-cylinder engines sound like? That's what this sounds like, too. I suspect one or at most two of the valves are leaking a bit, and it's giving a bit of extra noise at one particular part of a full rev. Also, there appears to be a bit more smoke coming out of the exhaust than previously (which makes me worry a bit about passing the roadworthiness test, emissions-wise, next year). Jasper Take a compression test. Then you may get the awnser if the valves are bent or worse. Svend > >the fact that you were able to replace the belt only and the engine still > >ran means you got away lightly, if valves bend the engine wont run, unless [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Jasper > Take a compression test. Then you may get the awnser if the valves are bent > or worse. > Svend >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> For the record, the mechanic replaced the belt and did some tuning of >> <whatever> (he didn't say what, exactly). Maybe he's got the belt a tooth out and that is why he has had to tune it. Might account for smoke. Is the distributor more or less at the middle of its adjustment? This is probably not relevant, but rather easy to check. >> >theres only about 1 or 2 bent valves instead of all 8 and even then we > are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > unrelated >> >problem, Probably not relevant here but I'll mention that a source of ticking in an idling Uno can be lack of oil in the transmission. Pushing in the clutch stops it. however it may simply be your tappets (in the cylinder head) >> Spent some more time with/in the car, and I think I know how to describe >> the sound better now. You know what 1- or 2-cylinder engines sound like? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Jasper >[1] If you can hear it over the rest of the engine noise, it's gotta be >wearing surfaces. And yes, indeed it was. We hadn't gotten around to deciding a repair yet, when yesterday, while ascending a steep ramp from stop (from a low parking lot to the high road), the engine stopped working. The roadside assistance people saw the same belt had run off, but couldn't get it running again, and after it got to the garage, they claim a valve has broken off, smashing parts into not only the head but also the cylinder and possibly the block itself. A junkyard engine would only be about 300 euros, but'd cost another 800 to fit. As we'd already pretty much decided on getting a new-secondhand car[1], it's probably off to the breakers, unless someone wants to take it off our hands. Bring your own tow-truck to the middle of .nl. Nevertheless, thanks for your advice in the rest of the thread, and I wish we'd gotten around to following it sooner. Jasper [1] Off-topic here, but probably a citroen berlingo multispace.
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