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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Explorer / December 2004

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99 Brake job caliper bleeding question

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Mikepier - 16 Dec 2004 14:49 GMT
I will probably do my brakes this weekend. I just have a question on
pushing the caliper pistons back in with a C-clamp. There seems to be
an issue as to whether I should open up the bleeder valve or not when I
compress the piston. I did a search on this and everyone seems to have
mixed opinions. Some say you should open the bleeder valve to prevent
the dirty brake fluid being pushed back into the caliper and possibly
the ABS. Some say it's not necessary risking getting air in the line
and not opening up the system. I don't think Ford even mentions opening
up the bleeder in their procedure manual.
Jusy wondering what everyone else thinks. Has anyone had problems by
not bleeding? If I do need to bleed, can I use the one-man vacuum brake
bleeder they sell in Auto parts stores? Thanks.
Hairy - 16 Dec 2004 15:16 GMT
> I will probably do my brakes this weekend. I just have a question on
> pushing the caliper pistons back in with a C-clamp. There seems to be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the dirty brake fluid being pushed back into the caliper and possibly
> the ABS. Some say it's not necessary

IMO, it probably isn't necessary for the reason given, but I'd do it simply
because the most contaminated fluid in the system is right there in the
calipers and wheel cyls. Why leave it in there? I'm a big fan of changing
brake fluid whenever I have to do brakes, but just clearing the
contamination from the calipers is better than nothing, and you should be
able to do it without getting air in the system.
H
sehaare - 16 Dec 2004 19:24 GMT
I just compressed the caliper pistons like normal and have had no problems.
If I'm not mistaken you need a special tool to properly bleed anti-lock
brakes.

HTH
Steve

>> I will probably do my brakes this weekend. I just have a question on
>> pushing the caliper pistons back in with a C-clamp. There seems to be
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> able to do it without getting air in the system.
> H
Mikepier - 16 Dec 2004 23:57 GMT
> I just compressed the caliper pistons like normal and have had no problems.
> If I'm not mistaken you need a special tool to properly bleed anti-lock
> brakes.
>
> HTH
> Steve

I know about the special tool for the ABS, but I thought that was only
if the ABS ran dry or if the ABS was changed. I thought as long as you
keep the master cylinder full and you don't run it dry, you can do
bleeding as you would on any car. The Chiltons book I have mentions the
tool, but does not mention to use it if you are bleeding brakes at the
caliper.
Searcher - 17 Dec 2004 00:34 GMT
Special tools for ABS? The ABS system has nothing to do with changing the
pads. The ABS is all controlled close to the master cylinder. The only thing
that has to do with ABS at the calipers is the plastice "notched" wheel and
the sensor itself. Unless you are doing a major break overhaul then messing
around with these items is crazy. If you ask me of course. I have ABS and I
change the pads myself pull the rotors and turn them if necessary and I have
yet to have any problems nor have I ever bled the calipers when returning
the piston to reset position. You do have to make sure that you open the
master cylinder reservoir before pushing the fluid back through the system.

Searcher1

>> I just compressed the caliper pistons like normal and have had no
> problems.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> tool, but does not mention to use it if you are bleeding brakes at the
> caliper.
Jim Warman - 17 Dec 2004 07:17 GMT
The brake fluid should be changed at regular intervals..... it is
hygroscopic and will readily absorb moisture from the air and other sources.
The moisture in the fluid can indeed affect the integrity of the metal
lines, the calipers and the wheel cylinders. Aditionally, the moisture
content reduces the boiling point of the brake fluid exponentially. When
retracting the caliper pistons is an ideal time to change out a good deal of
old fluid.

Resist the urge to use that old, open container of brake fluid that's been
on the garage shelf for umpteen years. I usually recommend that DIYers buy
several small containers of brake flluid rather than one large container.
Discard any containers with broken seals, saving only those containers that
are unopened.

The tone ring (notched wheel in technospeak) is usually made of ductile iron
due to this materials magnetic properties. A bias voltage is applied to the
wheel speed sensor circuit turning the speed sensor into a tiny
electromagnet. As the poles of the tone ring pass the sensor, the magnetic
field is disturbed changing the reluctance of the sensor..... the PCM reads
these disturbances as a frequency.

One should always try to gain knowledge on those systems being repaired or
serviced. Should the brake hydraulic system be breached in such a way as to
allow air into the HCU, a capable scan tool will be needed in order to purge
the control unit.

To minimize the mess when retracting the calipers, a length of vacuum tubing
or even aquarium tubing can be installed over the bleeder screw with the
other end inserted into a clean container (I use a high-tech plastic pop
bottle) with a small amount of fresh brake fluid - enough to cover the end
of the hose. This will minimize the possibility of air getting back into the
caliper.

Remember.... stopping our cars is likely the single most important thing we
can do with them. We always have one more chance to start them - I've never
seen anyone get a second chance to stop soon enough.

HTH

> Special tools for ABS? The ABS system has nothing to do with changing the
> pads. The ABS is all controlled close to the master cylinder. The only
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> tool, but does not mention to use it if you are bleeding brakes at the
>> caliper.
Fred W - 17 Dec 2004 14:26 GMT
Jim,

I value your advice greatly and have a few fairly insignificant questions:

> The brake fluid should be changed at regular intervals..... it is
> hygroscopic and will readily absorb moisture from the air and other sources.
> The moisture in the fluid can indeed affect the integrity of the metal
> lines, the calipers and the wheel cylinders.

I have often heard this theory before, but fail to see how the moisture
absorbed by the fluid will cause corrosion inside the sealed brake line.
  In fact this is supposed to be one of the main reasons to avoid the
DOT 5 silicone oil.  That stuff will not absorb the moisture so it will
remain water in the lines which will boil even earlier and cause even
more corrosion.

Also, If there is no air (oxygen) will the parts corrode (oxidize)?

> Aditionally, the moisture
> content reduces the boiling point of the brake fluid exponentially.

This is certainly true, but for those not interested in performance
driving (racing, etc.), at what water content does the boiling point
become low enough to be significant to the average Joe?

Don't get me wrong, I am a proponent of flushing brake systems at
regular (2-3 year) intervals.  I just know that there are many, many
cars on the road that have *never* flushed the brake fluid and they seem
to get by OK.

If this were an important safety item, you would think there would be
some sort of a check for fluyid age or moisture content when doing the
annual government mandated safety inspections.

> When
> retracting the caliper pistons is an ideal time to change out a good deal of
> old fluid.

True.

> Resist the urge to use that old, open container of brake fluid that's been
> on the garage shelf for umpteen years. I usually recommend that DIYers buy
> several small containers of brake flluid rather than one large container.
> Discard any containers with broken seals, saving only those containers that
> are unopened.

This is another piece of advice that I often see repeated, especially in
shop manuals and such.  But I wonder how many of us really leave "open"
containers of brake fluid around?  I would be too fraid that the
container might spill.  That stuff is no good to get on your cars' paint.

If they do really mean that the container cannot be opened once (seal
broken), used, and then resealed tightly and stored, then I do not
understand the merit of this advice, other than perhaps to sell more new
containers of brake fluid.  Surely a container that has the cap screwed
on tightly is just as impervious to hygroscopically absorbing moisture
as one sealed at the factory?  The small volume of air allowed in the
container upon resealing, even at high relative humidity conditions,
would be insignificant.

Just doing a little "thinking out loud" here.  Not trying to be a
smart@$$ at all.  Enquiring minds, and all that...

-Fred W
Jim Warman - 17 Dec 2004 19:58 GMT
Hi, Fred..... I'll try to give some insight into the reasoning...

Even though the water is emulsified in the fluid, it can still do it's dirty
work..... years of witnessing rusty wheel cylinders and calliper bores (and
the odd perforated brake line) attest to that. AFAIK, DOT5 isn't hygroscopic
and one of it's major downfalls is that it doesn't bleed easily.... once
fine air bubbles become entrained in the fluid the resist coalescing and
coming out (these bubbles are formed by simply pouring the product).

The minimum spec boiling point for dry DOT3 is 401 deg F. Most brand name
fluids exceed this spec but not by a great deal, IMHO. The heat load imposed
during a good downhill coast or stop and go driving can raise the fluid
temperature significantly, reducing the available buffer zone for panic
manoeuvres. As little as 6% moisture content can reduce the boiling point of
the fluid to about 260 F. A dragging brake can really through a wrench into
the works.

Racers get real familiar with brake fade quite often but brake fade isn't
just a concern for racers. It can and does happen on the street and it is a
condition that we have a means to avoid or at least reduce - changing fluid.
Most of us will find a need to service our brakes at roughly the same time
that a fluid exchange would be a wise service - making opening the bleeder
when retracting calipers an easy way to start the process.

As far as storing fluid is concerned..... a refractometer can be used to
measure water content but low water concentrations can turn the task into
guesswork. When it comes to such an important system as the brakes, I can't
see saving a buck or two as being worth the gamble....... not to me, not to
my customers and not to my family. The foil cap under the brake fluid lid is
hermetically sealed.... the same can't be said of the little cardboard or
plastic disc taking it's place. Let's not forget that temperature variations
of the container may have it "breathing" quite regularly.

The question isn't whether we can or can't use fluid from an open
container - it is a question of whether we SHOULD or not. I'm in a position
where I cannot and will not take that chance. The liability concerns alone
are enough to weaken the knees.

It remains a question of safety and fresh fluid from a sealed container is
about the safest thing we have when it comes to brake fluid...
AZGuy - 18 Dec 2004 06:12 GMT
The official Ford recommendation on changing brake fluid is that it's
not needed other then what is done during normal pad/shoe/brake
service.  Ford based their recommendation on studies that showed
moisture content in brake systems rises to about 3% fairly quickly and
then stabilizes.  Changing the fluid just provides new fluid to fairly
quickly absorb it's 3%.  

I agree with your thoughts on the claim that once opened a can of
brake fluid should be tossed.  IMHO it is the mechanix equivalent of
an old wives tale.  Oft told with no basis in reality.  If you open
the can, use what you need, and recap it there's nothing to worry
about.

>Jim,
>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
>-Fred W

--
Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts:

"What, sir, is the use of militia?  It is to prevent the
establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.  . .
Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of
the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
to raise a standing army upon its ruins."  -- Debate, U.S.  House
of Representatives, August 17, 1789  
 
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