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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Explorer / April 200794 Explorer cranks but no start, details inside Thanks for any help
This problem started a while ago, but would usually start after letting it sit for at least 8 hours. Now its been a week and I'm clueless where to start. Recently replaced EG valve and regulator, new plugs and wires. has 133k miles. I have a code reader and nothing came up. Thanks for any help Jim > This problem started a while ago, but would usually start after > letting it sit for at least 8 hours. Now its been a week and I'm [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jim Sounds very much like the fuel pump relay. Open the relay box on the passenger side, under the hood. Swap the A/C relay with the fuel pump relay- each has an unused pair of contacts, and they are opposites so they will be good as new. If that doesn't do it, another common problem is the crank position sensor. -Paul >> This problem started a while ago, but would usually start after >> letting it sit for at least 8 hours. Now its been a week and I'm [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Jim Thanks Paul >Sounds very much like the fuel pump relay. Open the relay box on the >passenger side, under the hood. Swap the A/C relay with the fuel pump [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >If that doesn't do it, another common problem is the crank position >sensor. Where is the crank position sensor? Is there a way to test if its bad? >-Paul >>> This problem started a while ago, but would usually start after >>> letting it sit for at least 8 hours. Now its been a week and I'm [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >>-Paul Does it start if you push down the gas pedal? If so, you have a bad idle air control valve. >>>> This problem started a while ago, but would usually start after >>>> letting it sit for at least 8 hours. Now its been a week and I'm [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Does it start if you push down the gas pedal? If so, you have a bad >idle air control valve. I held the gas pedal down and tried to start with no luck. However, a couple of weeks ago I remember I did that and it started, but not this time. > >Sounds very much like the fuel pump relay. Open the relay box on the > >passenger side, under the hood. Swap the A/C relay with the fuel pump [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Where is the crank position sensor? Is there a way to test if its bad? I don't have personal experience with the crank position sensor, but if you search this newsgroup you'll find info like this: Here's some good info from Dr. Bob on the crank position sensor: "The crank position sensor is the hall effect sensor pointing to the front of the crankshaft. The hub behind the front pulley has grooves machined in it, with one groove missing. the sensor reads each of the pulses from the grooves to know exactly how far the crankshaft has turned, and reads the missing groove to re-identify a known position to reference from. This allows the ignition and fuel injection systems to make sparks and fuel at the right time. There is a 'limp home' mode, as you have discovered, that allows the engine minimum operating ability so you aren't stranded. A failed sensor generates an error code, so the diagnosis is fairly straightforward. If you weren't at a Ford dealer, the $200 is the result of not having the right code reader. The sensor takes mere minutes to change." Here's a description of the problems it causes: "The crank sensor went out last fall on our '92 XL, too. The car would suddenly die and wouldn't start again. After about 10 minutes, it would start up fine and run like there was nothing wrong (until it would die again, usually days later). Finally, it would run only poorly (the "limp home" mode, I guess)." >> >Sounds very much like the fuel pump relay. Open the relay box on the >> >passenger side, under the hood. Swap the A/C relay with the fuel pump [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Where is the crank position sensor? Is there a way to test if its bad? Thanks Paul, Located the sensor, bottom center front (under). I ran the code reader and nothing came up. I think I interpreted what you wrote correctly. >I don't have personal experience with the crank position sensor, but >if you search this newsgroup you'll find info like this: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >again, usually days later). Finally, it would run only poorly (the >"limp home" mode, I guess)." >> This problem started a while ago, but would usually start after >> letting it sit for at least 8 hours. Now its been a week and I'm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >relay- each has an unused pair of contacts, and they are opposites so >they will be good as new. Swapped the relays and still no start >If that doesn't do it, another common problem is the crank position >sensor. >-Paul > Swapped the relays and still no start OK, down to basics. To start you need: 1. spark 2. proper fuel/air mixture 3. timing 4. compression At least one of those is missing. 1. Have someone crank it while you check for a spark. Create an 1/8" gap to ground somehow- old spark plug, nail, screwdriver, whatever. However, you should have an error code if the ignition system is not working. 2. Listen near the gas tank while someone turns the key to run. You should hear the fuel pump run briefly. Next check the fuel rail for pressure. It runs along the top of both heads, connecting to each fuel injector. Look for a schraeder valve, like on a tire. Have someone turn the key to run for a few seconds, then off, and see if there is pressure in the rail. Needless to say, there is some danger involved here. Don't be spraying gas all over, smoking, etc. The spec is 35-45 psi, key on, engine off. It is supposed to drop 10 psi when the engine starts. If you don't hear the fuel pump run and there is no fuel pressure, you have narrowed it down to the fuel pump or the fuse and wiring to the pump. There is also a fuel pressure regulator which can fail, in which case the fuel pressure will be wrong. 3. You should have an error code if you have a crank sensor or other timing related problem. 4. I'm sure you'd know if you had no compression in all 6 cylinders. -Paul >> Swapped the relays and still no start > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >However, you should have an error code if the ignition system is not >working. I checked for spark. Pulled plug, attached plug wire, laid on alternator, cranked. No spark. Used different plug wire, no spark. Also, for some reason the code reader doesn't seem to be working. I had disconnected the battery and reconnected. The alarm kept going off. >2. Listen near the gas tank while someone turns the key to run. You >should hear the fuel pump run briefly. Next check the fuel rail for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >wiring to the pump. There is also a fuel pressure regulator which can >fail, in which case the fuel pressure will be wrong. Should I be able to smell gas once I removed a plug? >3. You should have an error code if you have a crank sensor or other >timing related problem. > >4. I'm sure you'd know if you had no compression in all 6 cylinders. >-Paul > >> Swapped the relays and still no start > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I had disconnected the battery and reconnected. The alarm kept going > off. Well, if you have no spark I think you've narrowed it down considerably. It ain't gonna start without a spark. The alarm going off may have something to do with it, I think that also kills the ignition. You need a working code reader now, it sounds like it's not something simple and easy to diagnose, like a fuel pump problem. -Paul >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >something simple and easy to diagnose, like a fuel pump problem. >-Paul I don't have a problem with the alarm anymore, I think. I just used the code reader a month ago and it worked fine, that how I replaced the EG sensor. I hooked a fuel pressure gauge, but that doesn't register (fuel did come out of the valve). Does the engine need to be running? .45 round thru the block :-) Jim >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >something simple and easy to diagnose, like a fuel pump problem. >-Paul Another thought!!! What would cause the reader to not work, no fuel pressure, and no spark??? The link indicator on the reader comes on , but nothing else. Jim >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >something simple and easy to diagnose, like a fuel pump problem. >-Paul Apparently I was impatient with the code reader. I went back out and it had cycled thru and came back 111-system pass. Additionally, the fuel pressure gauge had a reading of 38PSI. Guess that leaves just the spark issue! Jim > >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Guess that leaves just the spark issue! Hmmnnnn... well, a problem with the ignition ought to set a code. Are you sure? This is EECIV, not OBDII. Doubt if those can self-diagnose ignition. > Hmmnnnn... well, a problem with the ignition ought to set a code. >Are you sure? This is EECIV, not OBDII. Doubt if those can self-diagnose >ignition. OBD I Code Reader Ford 1983 - 1995 Inside the owners manual though it stated the computer system is EEC-IV >> Hmmnnnn... well, a problem with the ignition ought to set a code. > Are you sure? This is EECIV, not OBDII. Doubt if those can self-diagnose > ignition. I'm not POSITIVE, but I'm pretty sure it will give a code for things like the crank position sensor failing. This is a gross failure, not something like one cylinder miss firing. But I'm too lazy to look it up, and if anyone knows for sure I'll defer to their greater knowledge. -Paul >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Hmmnnnn... well, a problem with the ignition ought to set a code. Now it gets really bizarre. When I finally got the reader to cycle thru the test I heard the fuel pump run and then the fuel pressure gauge shot up to 40psi then dropped to 37/38psi and the pressure held. Then I was able to start the engine. I then shut the engine and disconnected the fuel pressure gauge. I tried to start the engine again with no luck. I reconnected the code reader and ran it thru the test cycle, at least until I heard the fuel pump run. Then the engine started. What the #$%& would cause the fuel pump run when the code reader is connected, but not when I turn the ignition on. By the way, I still had no spark, therefore I must not have had it set up correctly and spark all along...I guess. Any Thoughts? Thanks Jim > >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Any Thoughts? My code reader resets the fail codes after 3 cycles of reading them. So if the computer is sensing a code that tells it to cut off the spark or fuel, that is a possible explanation. But this is getting beyond troubleshooting by text messages. -Paul > >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start > >> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Jim Since this is a '94 did you check the positive battery cable? They can deteriorate inside the insulation and look fine on the outside. Are the connections all clean? I don't know if the brains on the '94 are the same as the '97 but on my '97 it was doing exactly what you are describing. It turned out to be a bad battery. Two of the cells were a little weaker than the others. Apparently there was enough juice to turn the starter motor and crank the engine but not enough to make spark. I also cleaned the contacts on my crank position sensor so that may have contributed to the solution too. If you have a good, fairly new battery I suggest trying it. > > >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > If you have a good, fairly new battery I suggest trying it. It's true that a failing battery/poor connection can cause strange symptoms. I too had this on a Dodge Caravan- seemed to be cranking fine, sounded normal, but messed up the computer. -Paul >> > >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start >> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >fine, sounded normal, but messed up the computer. >-Paul Paul, The battery tested fine, so I'm going replace the positive cable. It does seem erratic so maybe it is computer related as a result of poor connections. Would warm weather be a factor? Jim >> >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start >> >> [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > >If you have a good, fairly new battery I suggest trying it. Hey Ulysses Thanks for the info. Interesting handle you are using as that is my first name. Anyway... Just had my battery tested and it came back OK even under load. BUT the positive cable looks bad, so I will replace it. Also, I will pull the crank position sensor and clean the contacts. This is the unit that is bottom front center, right? A further ellaboration might be helpful. When I turn on the ignition I do not hear the fuel pump run. I hook up the code reader and cycle test then I hear the fuel and the car will then start. Plus I can hear the fuel run when I turn on the ignition. What would the cause the fuel pump to cycle when connected to a code reader (during test cycle), but not when the ignition is turned on. Also, It seems to happen when the weather is warm and I can't remember it happening when the weather is cold. Thanks Jim > >> >> >> >> Swapped the relays and still no start > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > Thanks for the info. Interesting handle you are using as that is my > first name. Anyway... Huh. My name is Jim too. I use Ulysses from Homer's story The Odyssey. > Just had my battery tested and it came back OK even under load. BUT > the positive cable looks bad, so I will replace it. Also, I will pull > the crank position sensor and clean the contacts. This is the unit > that is bottom front center, right? I'm not sure where it is on the '94 but that's where it is on the '97. Pretty easy to get to. > A further ellaboration might be helpful. When I turn on the ignition I > do not hear the fuel pump run. I hook up the code reader and cycle > test then I hear the fuel and the car will then start. Plus I can hear > the fuel run when I turn on the ignition. My understanding up to this point was that you had verified that you have adequate fuel pressure. You DID test it, didn't you? At this point I have to ask: Did you push the fuel shut-off reset button? When mine would not start I tested the fuel pressure and it was OK. There was a wire for I'm not sure what attached to the coil pack that looked damaged so I cut out the damaged part and resoldered it. Nothing. I tested the voltage at the coil and it tested OK. The fuese were all OK. Everything the Hayne's manual said to check tested OK. The battery even *seemed* to be OK as far as the voltage and ability to accept a charge were concerned. My battery connectons were clean and tight. Sometimes the car would start and sometimes not. It seemed to be happening more often when it had been sitting for a day or so. I also tried to determine if the problem was fuel pump related and was happening more if it was parked facing downhill. Inconclusive. I cleaned the contacts on the crankcase position sensor and replaced the battery and the problem has not reoccured. But this was a '97 and the '91-94s are notorious for bad positive cables. > What would the cause the fuel pump to cycle when connected to a code > reader (during test cycle), but not when the ignition is turned on. > Also, It seems to happen when the weather is warm and I can't remember > it happening when the weather is cold. In any case if you can't hear the fuel pump cycling when you turn on the key then I'd start with the ignition switch, go to the pump relay, check the battery and cables and connections, push the fuel reset button, and make sure power is getting to the fuel pump. I had a bad ignition switch on my '91 but I don't remember what the specific symptoms were. It was probably obvious. I also suggest that you pull out all ignition and fuel pump related fuses, check and clean contacts as needed, and reinstall them. Maybe you just have a dirty connection somewhere. > Thanks > > Jim >> Hey Ulysses/Jim >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >adequate fuel pressure. You DID test it, didn't you? At this point I have >to ask: Did you push the fuel shut-off reset button? Yes the fuel presure was OK, went to 40psi and dropped to 38psi and held at 38psi. Fuel shut-off reset button? Didn't know there was one, what does it look like and where is it? Can't find it in the Haynes manual. >When mine would not start I tested the fuel pressure and it was OK. There >was a wire for I'm not sure what attached to the coil pack that looked [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >would start and sometimes not. It seemed to be happening more often when it >had been sitting for a day or so. These are the exact symptoms, except sometimes it has happened when I went into the store and came back out and wouldn't start (3 times). >I also tried to determine if the problem >was fuel pump related and was happening more if it was parked facing >downhill. Inconclusive. I cleaned the contacts on the crankcase position >sensor and replaced the battery and the problem has not reoccured. But this >was a '97 and the '91-94s are notorious for bad positive cables. Just replaced the positive cable. I'm curious how the crankcase position sensor would affect it. It did not show up on the code reader test cycle. However, I'm going to Mexico next weekend so better safe than sorry so I will clean the contacts anyway. Even though the battery test out OK I'm willing to replace it. Yes? >> What would the cause the fuel pump to cycle when connected to a code >> reader (during test cycle), but not when the ignition is turned on. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >related fuses, check and clean contacts as needed, and reinstall them. >Maybe you just have a dirty connection somewhere. Replaced the fuel pump relay, just in case, and have now pulled, clean, and reinstalled all relays. I keep coming back to what would cause the fuel pump to cycle when the code reader test cycle activated and not the ignition switch. Then once the fuel pump cycled via the code reader the fuel pump would cycle with the ignition switch. Thanks again Jim >I keep coming back to what would cause the fuel pump to cycle when the >code reader test cycle activated and not the ignition switch. Then >once the fuel pump cycled via the code reader the fuel pump would >cycle with the ignition switch. An ignition switch issue can show up as all sorts of things. On my wife's '92 Acura Legend, the car would start, but it would shut off as soon as you let go of the key. The grease in the switch had gotten old and was acting as an insulator on some of the contacts, turning off the power to the engine and computer when you let go of the key. I cleaned the switch with some contact cleaner I got at an electronics store and the problem went away. My wife insisted on a new switch (just the part with the contacts and the cable to the bulkhead was $100) so I replaced it.  SignatureMike Iglesias Email: iglesias@uci.edu University of California, Irvine phone: 949-824-6926 Network & Academic Computing Services FAX: 949-824-2069 >>I also tried to determine if the problem >>was fuel pump related and was happening more if it was parked facing [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >than sorry so I will clean the contacts anyway. Even though the >battery test out OK I'm willing to replace it. Yes? I had a starting problem on my '91. Got progressively harder to start till finally it would not start. The problem was finally tracked down to the group of wires that are located near and under the positive battery post. Two of the wires were corroded to the point of failure. A new length of wire was spliced in and the problem was solved. Hope this helps John Normile > Fuel shut-off reset button? Didn't know there was one, what does it > look like and where is it? Can't find it in the Haynes manual. You can rule that out. If the fuel shut-off is tripped it won't start at all until that is reset. -Paul > >> Hey Ulysses/Jim > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Yes the fuel presure was OK, went to 40psi and dropped to 38psi and > held at 38psi. Like Paul said, if you have fuel pressure it's not the reset switch. FYI it's located just under the top of the carpet on the front, passenger side. I think the button is red. > Fuel shut-off reset button? Didn't know there was one, what does it > look like and where is it? Can't find it in the Haynes manual. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > than sorry so I will clean the contacts anyway. Even though the > battery test out OK I'm willing to replace it. Yes? If you are going to drive it to Mexico can we assume it's been starting reliably? If the car's computer cannot read the crankcase position it will not allow the ignition to spark. I don't know how to test the sensor but I'll bet they don't cost a whole lot to replace. If you don't get it from Ford anyway. On a newer car I would not do the "shotgun" approach and start replacing everything under the hood but we are talking about a 13 year old truck here so IMHO it might be reasonable to replace a few suspected items that have not proven defective but could possibly cause problems in the near future. When my '91 was overheating I replaced the radiator, radiator cap, fan, fan clutch, water pump, and thermostat. The water pump still seemed OK and the radiator was not leaking but with about 200K miles on it I felt it was about due anyway. No more overheating problems anyway. Come to think of it I had a '93 Escort Wagon and when the battery had reached the end of it's days the engine would crank but not start. Kinda makes you long for the days when engines had distributors and no brains and manual transmissions so you could push-start them. I parked my ol' '61 VW on a hill whenever I stopped it so I could just roll down to get it going ;-). If there was no hill the thing was so light I could push it myself and jump in, pop the clutch and be on my way. > >> What would the cause the fuel pump to cycle when connected to a code > >> reader (during test cycle), but not when the ignition is turned on. > >> Also, It seems to happen when the weather is warm and I can't remember > >> it happening when the weather is cold. It's been a while and I'm getting kinda old but if I remember correctly on my '97 when I disconnected the crankcase position sensor and reconnected it the fuel pump cycled. Maybe. And of course a '97 is not a '94. Same engine though. > >In any case if you can't hear the fuel pump cycling when you turn on the key > >then I'd start with the ignition switch, go to the pump relay, check the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jim |
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