Car Forum / Ford / Ford Explorer / October 2007
Oil change - under truck inspection - Warmen Solution versus DIY
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Ashton Crusher - 30 Sep 2007 02:10 GMT While changing the oil on my S-10 I noticed that the knuckles on the center link were just barely scraping the bottom of the oil pan and starting to wear it a little bit. They just barely touch it at each of the ends where the bottom of the pan curves up to form the sides. The scrapped area is about a half inch long on each side. Truck has 176,000 miles on it. Front end was redone about a year ago by a local shop and worn parts replaced. There's nothing loose anywhere, just looks like the motor mounts have compressed just enough to let these parts touch. I'm concerned about the knuckles wearing a hole thru the oil pan eventually. How would a professional mechanic solve this and would it cost much?
Jim Warman - 30 Sep 2007 03:53 GMT S-10? Silly me, I thought this was a Ford NG....
FWIW... (and your attempt at sarcasm or what have you isn't working), the correct method of repair is to find the faulty part(s) and repair or replace them. That part shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
What I have seen all to often.... "unique repairs" that can and will affect repairs made further down the road.... Jerry rigged exhaust repairs are one of the biggest concerns... poorly thought out, they can add significantly to the time required to R&I transmissions and other assemblies (not to mention placing exhaust components closer to fuel lines than allowed by CMVSS (Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) or it's US counterpart....
If push came to shove, I would be judged by these safety standards and, with the litigious nature of modern society, I can see the day when DIYers will also be juidged by these standards (and there are volumes of them). As always, the safety of motor vehicles should always be the first consideration.... Far too many lives are irrevocably changed daily because of unssafe vehicles and/or drivers.
Ulysses - 30 Sep 2007 17:11 GMT > S-10? Silly me, I thought this was a Ford NG.... Maybe it was Found On the Road Dead while he was Exploring.
> FWIW... (and your attempt at sarcasm or what have you isn't working), Huh, it works for me.
Beryl - 30 Sep 2007 05:50 GMT > While changing the oil on my S-10 I noticed that the knuckles on the > center link were just barely scraping the bottom of the oil pan and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the oil pan eventually. How would a professional mechanic solve this > and would it cost much? Ball-peen hammer on the pan, obviously!
Ashton Crusher - 30 Sep 2007 07:21 GMT >> While changing the oil on my S-10 I noticed that the knuckles on the >> center link were just barely scraping the bottom of the oil pan and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Ball-peen hammer on the pan, obviously! Bingo!
Jim Warman - 30 Sep 2007 18:11 GMT Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no need for any "professional" references here. The kid down at Kwikee Loob could do that for you.
There are usually several things that can be done to alleviate any given concern... only one of them is "right".... though many may "suffice". Professionals don't piss around with hack jobs - plain and simple.
Not too long ago, we had the proud owner of a SuperDuty V10 with a roached motor.... He is confident that his warranty is going to take care of him.... And that is when we discovered he had hit something with his oil pan. The resulting dent was directly below the oil pan pick up..... this added restriction to oil flow was the death of his engine bearings.
You may congratulate yourself on your unique approach to problem solving.... possibly, rightfully so...
I can only assume that you and I live in two very different worlds.... My customers insist that I repair their vehicles in a manner that I am comfortable with - they do not easily abide return visits for the same concern - nor will they accept side effects from anything that I have done that could be considered "unique". Of interesting note... we have some local shops that do fix things with a ball peen hammer.... These are the same shops that send me their "unfixables".
DIYers will do and accept many things that they would refuse to pay money for.... Would you part with significant amounts of coin of the realm for something that is "good enough"?
I see we are destined to be at loggerheads vis-a-vis our differing attitudes... for my part, if it ain't right, I will refuse to stake my reputation on it.....
Cooking is one of my hobbies.... if you want a Big Mac - it wont come off my grille.
Explorer1994 4.0L - 01 Oct 2007 05:28 GMT > Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave > man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Cooking is one of my hobbies.... if you want a Big Mac - it wont come off my > grille. I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan.
I disagree with Mr. Warren. DIY maintenance is an economical thing and safe thing to do when servicing such things as fluid changes (eg. oil, transmission, brake, steering, differential, coolant, etc....). Bottom line, dealerships and JiffyLubes charge outrageous prices for such simple procedures. Second, the probability of the dealership/jiffrips not providing you with high quality service, is even lower. Mr Warren wants you to believe in his quasi-professional designations as a 'professional' mechanic. The consumer has no recourse when facing such professions. There is no professional body that you can turn to, if a mechanic screws your car, and get immediate financial relief. The only way, is through the legal-court system. Bottom line #2, the transaction between you and the mechanic comes down to trust. And if you trust an auto-mechanic, you should seek immediate psychiatric help since you must also purchase your cars from used car sales.
What the Mr. Warrens out there don't want you is the know-how (that is, the ability to read a service manual/Haynes/ask a Ford mechanic, if he doesn't charge you an arm and a leg for that advice), and the confidence of having the ability to complete such simple procedures. If you can twist a screw, then you're 90 percent there to changing the fluids in your car.
If you have the means to keep the DIY job clean, ordered, and have the space to do it (eg. a garage), then you have access to saving money that can be better invested elsewhere.
On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er.
Bob - 02 Oct 2007 03:53 GMT >> Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave >> man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle > cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er. I agree with you most of the quickie jiffy etc lube places will "gouge you like an animal" Their goal is not doing a quality service, it's making as much money as possible. They'll do as much damage as the least skilled diy'er. I've seen their work on many vehicles- they do things like throw away the screws that hold down your air cleaner housing because they're too lazy to replace them and you'll probably never notice. I had a truck my employer insisted I maintain at Dippy Lube for the life of the truck they never lubed the chassis or checked the battery although they said they did. And like you say, if you complain all you get is attitude.
But there are honest highly skilled mechanics out there. I believe "Mr. Warren" (Jim Warman) is one of them. I've found one in my town and he'll have my business until he retires. I'm sure he's saved me more money over the years (finding things that if left unattended would be very expensive later) than I would have saved doing it myself.
I've seen lots of diy'ers spend way more than they would on a good mechanic. Things like replacing the $100 starter when it's a $5 relay causing the problem. Troubleshooting by replacing parts is very expensive.
A highly skilled honest mechanic is worth every penny and will probably save you money in the long run.
Ashton Crusher - 02 Oct 2007 06:21 GMT >> Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave >> man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >If you can twist a screw, then you're 90 percent there to changing the >fluids in your car. Jim's honest enough and seems well qualified. He just has a view that any shortcut is wrong, esp if done by a DIYer. Oddly enough, if the same shortcut was to be outlined in a TSB from the Manufacturer I don't think he'd have any trouble following it. That's a blind spot many people in many professions have - if they don't get told what to do by the anointed expert they can't imagine it could be a proper thing to do.
>If you have the means to keep the DIY job clean, ordered, and have the >space to do it (eg. a garage), then you have access to saving money >that can be better invested elsewhere. > >On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle >cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er. I"ve certainly seen a lot more expertise in these newsgroups from "amateurs" then what I've typically seen from mechanics at "professional" shops.
Jim Warman - 02 Oct 2007 07:46 GMT Not wanting to be misunderstood.... there are some viable shortcuts.... I use some and try to pass the savings along to my customers.... Sometimes, this can be difficult with "menu" pricing, but I offer my input loudly when I feel we are approaching any sort of overcharge....
There are many problems with shortcuts.... some involve bending something that doesn't want to be bent... others (such as caving in an oil pan indiscriminately) MAY have far reaching and very expensive after-effects... and still others are just plain bad ideas.....
If a shop takes a shortcut and screws up, the customer should have some recourse.... but a tech that takes poorly considered shortcuts deserves to be shot with a ball of his own sh.t to begin with..... too many shortcuts are poorly considered. I've been doing this stuff since 1968ish... in that nearly 40 years, I can tell you that, time and again, "cheap ain't".
Many DIYers are DIYing out of financial necessity... these are the guys that cannot afford gambling with shortcuts or ill conceived patch jobs. Some DIYers simply revel in the feeling of a job well done....
The crux of the matter is "are we actually fixing something or are we simply postponing it so it can cost us a real bundle down the road?". Far be it from me to speak as if I had any kind of experience... if you guys want to re-invent the wheel, go for it, I spent many years both self employed and working for independent shops. Too often, a DIYer would get in over his head and bring us a large, car shaped piece of sh.t - the victim of too many shortcuts - and now, we must tell the owner that it is going to cost a lot of money to get this thing back to where we can repair it confidently and SAFELY.
At the same time, I've had DIYers bring me cars that are chock full of new parts - to the tune of well over $1,000..... This can generate one of two scenarios.... The fix would have been a couple of hun for a poor connection/open circuit...... of one or more of the new parts was damaged on installation (I've had more than one apprentice on "autopilot" cost me this way).
If you guys want to call me an a.shole because I tell you that your thought process is lacking in experience and knowledge - so be it... it ain't my f.cking wallet and it ain't my f.cking car.... Quite frankly, if you are shivering your a.s off on the side of the road because you felt my suggestions are too "elite", I will be at home, snug and comfortable because I don't piss around with some machine that doesn't care about me (no matter what cutesy name you can give it - "Ol' Blue" or "NellyBelle" or "Mayflower" (because all the girls came across in it)) or can kill me in a heartbeat (or a frigid northern Alberta winter).
If you feel that you deserve second rate sh.t.... be my guest... Me? I refuse to subject my loved ones to what may happen from saving a few bucks through improper repairs.... it doesn't matter if a DIYer does it improperly or if a "trained professional" does it improperly - wrong is "wrong".... period.
Beryl - 02 Oct 2007 09:24 GMT > There are many problems with shortcuts.... some involve bending something > that doesn't want to be bent... others (such as caving in an oil pan Oh come on, caving in an oil pan? I'd say slightly "reshaping" the oil pan. Chevy evidently lacked some foresight here.
I understand your philosophy, and if this were aviation you'd be right 99% of the time. But it's a beater truck.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pragmatic ... relating to matters of fact or practical affairs often to the exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters : practical as opposed to idealistic
Jim Warman - 04 Oct 2007 04:50 GMT I have never asked any one to agree with me... so let's forget the "Oh come on....". As for "caving in an oil pan...", you must have missed the reference to restricting the oil pump pick up.....
Once more from the top..... IT AIN'T MY f.cking WALLET...... IT AIN'T MY f.cking CAR.... DO WHAT YOU f.cking WANT... I will, however, be there to say "I told you so....".
There are a lot of "so-called" techs out there that don't consider the the outcome of their actions... and they will gladly do those things that miught cost dearly in the future.... In the case of the V10 with the caved in oil pan, the owner recalled running over something two oil changes (performed by him) before his symptoms manifested themselves.
Not everything that happens to a car happens overnight.... Most things are cummulative. Something that appears quite innocent can come back to haunt a long time after the fact....
Bottom line.... I speak from my experience..... if you don't like that, ignore it.... Nearly 40 years of doing, seeing, watching can't mean much when all that stands between "me" and relief is a few swats with a ball peen hammer, right? Do what you like, you wont change my mind...... For some odd reason, I feel that there is a chance I might know better....
Now.... you can listen to my advice... or you can ignore it..... The people I must please live in my town.... and pleased they are.....
Have a good day....
>> There are many problems with shortcuts.... some involve bending something >> that doesn't want to be bent... others (such as caving in an oil pan [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters : practical as opposed to > idealistic Beryl - 04 Oct 2007 06:17 GMT > I have never asked any one to agree with me... so let's forget the "Oh come > on....". As for "caving in an oil pan...", you must have missed the > reference to restricting the oil pump pick up..... Nope, didn't miss that. You're charging that SuperDuty V10 owner with "caving in an oil pan indiscriminately"??
> .... In the case of the V10 with the caved in oil > pan, the owner recalled running over something two oil changes (performed by Oh, come on! Ashton Crusher aiming a bell-peen hammer to make little dimples and a guy that ran over something are not the same.
Jim Warman - 06 Oct 2007 13:30 GMT And you can be sure of that because?????????
I'm not saying that this wont alleviate his problem.... but I can't say that it wont cause other problems in it's wake, either.... You must remember that some of our shops income is derived from cheapie repairs gone bad... I feel badly for customers that come to us as a "last resort" because they've dumped a ton of money into ill considered DIY things (usually followed by dumping a ton of money into a "bargain" shop) and it winds up on my doorstep..... but the rude fact of the matter is that our door rate is our door rate..... And if the repair has been done correctly to begin with, there wont be other issues down the road....
Ashton is quite comfortable with his hammer.... but, sagged motor mounts are sagged motor mounts... and they are also "suspect" motor mounts, in my mind. If the rubber has deteriorated to the point where the mount has changed "shape".... predict the point of failure with the bonding....
What seems to be lost on some is that I am also a DIYer.... who'd-da-thunk? For my own vehicles, I don't abide things being "bad".... If I saw a "need" to bash in my oil pan (or anything else, for that matter), I'd be looking for what ever has gone wrong to make bashing in my oil pan a necessity.... After all, the pan wasn't bashed in from the factory - why would it need to be bashed in now?
When it comes to cars, the only thing that you can be sure of is that, somewhere along the line, you are going to open your wallet.... Like dining out.... you can spend a few bucks to be in a relaxed. mid-scale restaraunt eating food that some chef cared about..... or you can go down to the golden arches and have "something" prepared by a kid that should be doing his homework and whose only thought is waiting for the deep fryer to go "DING" (that and what he and his friends did last night)....
Me? I prefer the mid-scale dining..... I don't put a lot of miles on my iron.... but my loving bride often has to travel our winter highways alone.... and I will not abide a breakdown..... If I go somewhere myself, I want any of my vehicles to be ready to go.... and it is going to be as right as I can possibly make it because this is my assurance of dependability.... My time is too precious to me to spend it trying to be a "hack mechanic"....
And that brings us to another point..... the "hack mechanics" that everyone loves to complain about.... Years ago, I did indeed try some "creative" repairs to try and save cash strapped owners a few bucks..... These would usually come back to bite me and, being the honest sort, I would stand behind my warranty. For every dollar I "saved" my customer by "cheaping out", I would end up about five dollars out of pocket doing it the way it should have been done to begin with.
So... if you guys want to bash the piss out of something - anything with a ball peen hammer.... I would suggest you resist the urge to bust my chops when I mention that this might not be the way to go.... it's your truck - wail away.... but do NOT pretend that this is the way a professional should handle your concern.
I can see it now.... the TV repair guy can give you two prices.... for the big dollar, he can fix your TV.... for a few bucks less, he can paint an "X" on the side that shows where to hit it when it acts up.....
>> I have never asked any one to agree with me... so let's forget the "Oh >> come on....". As for "caving in an oil pan...", you must have missed the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Oh, come on! Ashton Crusher aiming a bell-peen hammer to make little > dimples and a guy that ran over something are not the same. Ashton Crusher - 04 Oct 2007 07:31 GMT >Not wanting to be misunderstood.... there are some viable shortcuts.... I >use some and try to pass the savings along to my customers.... Sometimes, [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >or if a "trained professional" does it improperly - wrong is "wrong".... >period. Keep in mind that just about the only DIYers you see are the ones who screw up. So it's not a valid sample.
What would you think of this ...
As with most bucket seats, this one is bolted down with the usual four bolts. It's also located in position by a couple locating pins, about 3/8" diam that stick thru the floorboards near where the front bolts go. To make the seat snug down better (it wasn't not tightening up enough and was squeaking) the owner cut the locating pins off and re-bolted it back down. That stopped the squeak.
Beryl - 05 Oct 2007 05:39 GMT > What would you think of this ... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > enough and was squeaking) the owner cut the locating pins off and > re-bolted it back down. That stopped the squeak. Those pins might have been intended to take shear forces in a crash. 3/8" seems pretty stout for "locating" pins that aren't needed after the bolts are in.
Ashton Crusher - 06 Oct 2007 06:21 GMT >> What would you think of this ... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >3/8" seems pretty stout for "locating" pins that aren't needed after the >bolts are in. Maybe. The above "solution" is the official Toyota fix for the squeak. If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics would have thrown a fit.
Jim Warman - 06 Oct 2007 13:59 GMT If the above solution was the "factory" fix, you can bet that engineering would have been involved in the decision process.... You forget that, as a dealer tech, I am also involved in these sorts of activities.... There was a recall on certain model year Escapes that had us drill specified size holes in specific locations in some foam blocks at the top of the A pillar.... This was an engineering thing to reduce the chance of head injury in a collision....
For the owner of the Toyota, if this was, indeed, the "factory" fix.... I can say nothing.... if, however, this was some cavalier way that the dealer solved this concern without consulting engineering, what can I say? It was you that opened the door to things involving occupant safety and survivability.... I hope you haven't confused "factory" fix with "field" hack.
You are going to have to remember that performing this work carries a certain amount of liability and exposure for litigation to a tech. You are also going to have to remember that I don't work on Toyotas - and I don't pretend to give Toyota advice, either....
The safety and dependability of your automobile is more important than some consider.... We do have some customers that drive from one breakdown to the next.... they are forever frustrated and forever inconvenienced. And no amount of admonishment can make them see that there is an alternative.... Temporary field repairs can only ever be "temporary field repairs" and should never be considered as the "final fix".... But, you guys have never lifted a truck to see the tie rods held together with moose hide strips or bicycle inner tubes, either.
At the very least, Ashton and a couple of others are making this NG something less than fun.... I sold my Explorer several years ago.... It was a fun little car to drive.... not quite 250,000 kms on it when I sold it and it is still on the road today.... When it started pulling to the right, I gave it an alignment.... I put lower intake gaskets in to it and, whenever the need arose, I replaced any necessary parts.... never once feeling the urge to take a hammer to things or seeing the need for "creative" repairs.
Since I am Explorerless.... and since the vocal minority would prefer substandard repairs, perhaps it is time for this old dog to move on.....
Have a good day.....
>>> What would you think of this ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > squeak. If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics > would have thrown a fit. Bob - 07 Oct 2007 01:25 GMT > If the above solution was the "factory" fix, you can bet that engineering > would have been involved in the decision process.... You forget that, as a [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >> squeak. If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics >> would have thrown a fit. Now you've all gone and pissed off Jim Warman, one of the best resources this group has. A Master Ford technician dispensing free (possibly acerbic but always valuable) help with our Explorers. Hey Jim I stuck up for you. Don't go away! I promise to never smash my truck with a hammer.
Ashton Crusher - 07 Oct 2007 01:28 GMT >If the above solution was the "factory" fix, you can bet that engineering >would have been involved in the decision process.... You forget that, as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >This was an engineering thing to reduce the chance of head injury in a >collision.... Hmm, how interesting. You might consider that many of the "proper fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because the "experts" screwed up in the first place.
>For the owner of the Toyota, if this was, indeed, the "factory" fix.... I >can say nothing.... if, however, this was some cavalier way that the dealer >solved this concern without consulting engineering, what can I say? It was >you that opened the door to things involving occupant safety and >survivability.... I hope you haven't confused "factory" fix with "field" >hack. Nope.
>You are going to have to remember that performing this work carries a >certain amount of liability and exposure for litigation to a tech. You are >also going to have to remember that I don't work on Toyotas - and I don't >pretend to give Toyota advice, either.... I covered that in a prior post.
>The safety and dependability of your automobile is more important than some >consider.... We do have some customers that drive from one breakdown to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >lifted a truck to see the tie rods held together with moose hide strips or >bicycle inner tubes, either. Ah, the patented "Warman pronouncement". Why do you assume no one who's a DIYer has ever seen a bad hack job? I've seen and fixed plenty.
>At the very least, Ashton and a couple of others are making this NG >something less than fun.. That's an interesting viewpoint Jim. I guess you can't see the other side of the coin. For people who are looking for "how to" fix something without having to spend a fortune it's not a lot of fun for them (and the people who help them), to ask a question here, be told by someone who's made a fix in a DIY way with excellent success, how to fix it, to then get lectured by you as to what an idiot they are and how they would be a fool to follow any advice other then yours. You can't seem to accept that not every DIYer is an idiot with no skills and no sense and that not every DIY fix is some untested hack job.
.. I sold my Explorer several years ago.... It was
>a fun little car to drive.... not quite 250,000 kms on it when I sold it and >it is still on the road today.... When it started pulling to the right, I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> squeak. If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics >> would have thrown a fit. Jim Warman - 11 Oct 2007 09:52 GMT The holes... ahhhh, yes... the holes..... These would be the holes we drill using a special locating jig and a "stopped" auger bit..... You have visions of someone drilling holes willy-nilly.... The truth is that the holes are as precisely located in the field as possible (using the afformentioned locating jig)... the auger bit size is specified and the depth of the holes are specified.... This fix has had engineers involved.... Some where along the line, one engineer has to "sign off" on the fix stating that this is going to avoid head injuries.... litigation..... human suffering....
That we have "experts" available to make mistakes is a testament to the state of the art vis-a-vis automotive technology today.... The engineers step up to the plate and say "we f.cked up - let's make it right".
Let's go back to the oil pan.... When the truck was new, it didn't need dents in the oil pan for things to be right. Suddenly, it *needs* dents in the oil pan..... Obviously, it is the oil pan that is faulty..... So.... I guess that pesky oil pan must have swollen up during the middle of the night - perhaps a poultice might be a better choice....
But...... rather than fix the problem properly, we'll bash away at the oil pan and call the guy that is going to fix the REAL concern a dork. I'm amazed - I'm flabbergasted.... I will be called a hack because I didn't fix something right... but I can now be a hack because I didn't "hack" a repair.
Let's put it this way.... if you want your truck to be as good as it can be.... if you want me to be honest with you and tell you that this truck is beyond help, dump it... Come and see me.... If you love living life "on the edge".... if you can commune with nature while waiting for a tow.... if you are looking for "substandard" - you WILL be somebody elses customer.... and he (through many of the other forums I frequent - I don't watch TV) just may come to me to ask what I would do.... After he wastes most of your available cash.
There are many ways to solve a problem... how many of them are the best solution - the right solution? If you like sh.t.... enjoy it.... don't try to convince everyone else that they will like sh.t too....
> Hmm, how interesting. You might consider that many of the "proper > fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because > the "experts" screwed up in the first place. Ashton Crusher - 14 Oct 2007 11:46 GMT >The holes... ahhhh, yes... the holes..... These would be the holes we drill >using a special locating jig and a "stopped" auger bit..... You have visions [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >solution - the right solution? If you like sh.t.... enjoy it.... don't try >to convince everyone else that they will like sh.t too.... As usual you just go off on a rant and ignore everything in the message you are ostensibly replying to. You build your usual straw man that has no connection to reality. You say I bashed my oil pan as if I took a sledge hammer to it and put dents the size of baseballs in it. The "dents" were all of 1/8" deep. But don't let facts get in the way of your insults. Below is a "Warmanized" reply...
Based on your constant recitation of the same thing over and over again (spend money, buy lots of parts) it's obvious that everything you work on winds up costing the owner a ton of money before you are done with it. As a result your shop gets a huge number of complaints about your overpriced work. Since there are few other repair shops in the area your customers don't have many options. The owner of your place of employment most likely thinks you are a heck of a mechanic since between all the hugely marked up parts you sell and all the labor you rack up I'm sure he's making a killing off this racket and has no interest in changing a thing. You must have gotten your training at a Sears Auto Center - you remember them don't you, the ones that the attorney generals in multiple states investigated and put out of business for making unneeded repairs, price gouging, and charging for repairs never made.
.......... of course I don't actually believe the above, but if I replied in the same hysterical and factually deficient way you do, that's what would result.
>> Hmm, how interesting. You might consider that many of the "proper >> fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because >> the "experts" screwed up in the first place. Jim Warman - 16 Oct 2007 09:27 GMT Think what you want...
As things stand, if I don't fix something right this week, I may well fix it for free (and properly) next week.... It's not me decding what is the best repair strategy, it is the car and I am simply the translator.....
When we get into modifications (and even dents in the oil pan are modifications), we are entering an area where one change often begets another.... and another... and another.... The chance of having some Frankenstein sitting in the drieway that nobody can fix without a big checquebook is all too real... And THIS, young sir, is a trap many inexperienced DIYers fall into....
When I first started out in my own business, I had the dream of being that guy that could fix cars well and for much cheaper. In reality, I bought myself a job... a poor paying job ... where it was common for a customer to come to pick up his car saying "I don't have the money today - but I can.....". And it was just as common for a customer to forget what was saved doing a piecemeal repair (because he didn't want or have the cash to spend) when things went bad - "You f*cked up my car!!!".
Then, I moved a little further uptown.... I do only that quality of repair that I would do on my own vehicles. With this comes the understanding that many parts on a car are considered "sacrificial"... and with the understanding that, if I am into a repair in a particular area, there are parts that might be more economically changed now rather than a month or two or three from now.
Let's say you have a bad rear wheel seal on an 8.8 diff..... Do you go in and replace only the seal that is leaking? Or will you replace them both? Let's not allow a piffling thing like realizing that both rear wheel seals have had a very similar life - and one has already failed....
Whoops.... lookee there - the brake shoes are contaminated with oil... Now there are a lot of rules and accepted industry standards (not to mention liability and litigation concerns) that I must follow..... (You, being a DIYer, are allowed to thumb your nose at these common sense onsiderations - and even if something went wrong to the point of litigation, you can plead inexperience). So... contaminated brake shoes just ain't going to make it out of my store.... I don't care how many times someone tells me they wont blame me if something goes bad.... Now we notice that the brake hardware (springs and such) have been subject to the ravages of time - and nature..... I don't care if you trust it or not.... If *I* don't trust it, the job isn't going to get done - not in my store, anyway. And the list can grow.... what shape are the drums in.... how about the e-brakes.... the wheel cylinders..... All of these desparately need to be up to snuff. Because if one of them is going to be considered as contributing to an MVA, I do not want to be named a correspondant....
It can be easy to confuse "oversell" with doing something the way it should be done.... On one hand, the owner might have an idea of how much he may be willing to invest in any repair strategy..... On the other hand, an owner will demand that he makes as few visits to the shop as possible.... I have a LOT of customers that insist that brake pads are changed when wear approaches 50%.... The few bucks worth of usable brake pad that are discarded are more than offset by removig the inconvenience of another visit to the shop... quite possibly at an inopportune time.... Interesting thing with sacrificial parts... we can change them when it is convenient for us.... or we can wait for them to be a problem that can both cause further damage and/or become a very real inconvenience.
So..... since my customers look to me for guidance, it is up to me to recommend a repair strategy... one that will minimize the number of times they return to the shop (inconvenience), one that will minimize the number of times they "waste money" on duplicate labour ops, one that will, in the end, give them "more bang for the buck".... one that will, over the life of the vehicle, result in a lower cost per mile of operation.....
Now... let's mention your "dents".... We finally have at least some description of your dents.... I'm still not impressed with your brand of ingenuity. Your engine mounts, by your description, have sagged.... Even now, there could be a drone or vibration that you don't realize..... I vaguely recall you mentioning that the mounts have been replaced - since they have sagged, I must assume they were replaced with the cheapest parts available.... . If you don't feel a drone or vibration, we can assume one of two things.... it isn't there to be felt (yet) - or, a buyer may pass up this vehicle whenever it may be offered for sale because something "isn't right". If the mounts have deteriorated in a short span, there is a very real chance that this deterioration may continue and you will once again replace the mounts... this is the gamble.... I don't have the luxury of gambling with other peoples money..... But, if you do have to replace the mounts again, you now have dents in your oil pan.... and neither one of us has any idea if these dents are in a critical area or not....
The guy that ran over something in the road drove for a long, long time before the problem became an issue... and when it became an issue, it cost him a lot of money and downtime (isn't this what DIYing is supposed to "SAVE"?).
DIYing shouldn't be an adventure in "how to hack a repair"... it doesn't work..... damned near 40 years of doing this has proven it time and time again.
Bars Leaks (or Silver Stallion or any of those other homeopathic remedies) isn't a "repair"... it's a placebo. And when the concern comes back (and it will), it will come back with a vengeance.
Dents or other modifications to other areas of a car aren't likely to offer instantaneous symptoms of a concern.... many of these can take many miles for the first symptoms to become obvious... and it is at this time that it is already too late in far too many cases.
Back when I was younger, I thought I knew it all..... dents in oil pans.... cheapy stop gap measures.... I was gonna save the world.... Now I'm a lot longer in the tooth.... I've been doing this sh.t since before you were a gleam in daddys eye... and I can look people in the eye and say "I don't know jack sh.t about this stuff"... It's easy to think this stuff is simple.... But if you want to save money, do it once - do it right.
But people come here because they lack the experience to diagnose a concern, the knowledge to diagnose a concern, the ability to diagnose a concern, the patience to diagnose a concern or the facilities to diagnose a concern (or any combination of the list). Puff your feathers all you want... there are a hundred ways to "fix" a problem..... only one of them is going to be right and only one of them is going to be dependable.
When push comes to shove..... I have a lot of people that drive on the roads in our area that I admire, consider friends or even love..... I do not enjoy the notion that there is the chance that some jerry rigged, ill considered, "accident looking for a place to happen" is hurtling towards them at break-neck speed....
As a (retired) rescue tech with our local fire department and in my capacity in assisting with accident reconstruction with our local LEOs, IO get to see many tjhings that you haven't even considered.....
Which brings us to a crucial consideration.... "haven't even considered"....... I may be old and I may be cranky.... You might even think I "oversell".... I'm booked over two weeks in advance right now.... I work 12 hour days..... and my customers go away happy....
>>The holes... ahhhh, yes... the holes..... These would be the holes we >>drill [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >>> fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because >>> the "experts" screwed up in the first place. Beryl - 16 Oct 2007 23:57 GMT > Puff your feathers all you want... there are a > hundred ways to "fix" a problem..... only one of them is going to be right > and only one of them is going to be dependable. Ever have the famous Blend Door failure with your own Explorer? Ever fix one for someone else? Tell me why your repair was "right", what it cost, how dependable it was going to be.
Ulysses - 08 Oct 2007 00:51 GMT > Since I am Explorerless.... and since the vocal minority would prefer > substandard repairs, perhaps it is time for this old dog to move on..... > > Have a good day..... Lemmesee... you just wrote a very helpful, detailed explanation on how to check a transfer case and also how to repair it, right down to the special tools needed. And you didn't even call anyone any names (the wailing hammer comment was fair and justified). I consider that to be worthwhile.
> >>> What would you think of this ... > >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > squeak. If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics > > would have thrown a fit. gordo - 13 Oct 2007 21:22 GMT > I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle > cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er. If you want to save a HUGE amount money, you should be performing DIY medical care and surgery on yourself and family members instead of depending on 'professionals'. As we all know, there are lots of incompetent doctors out there too.
Beryl - 14 Oct 2007 06:26 GMT >>I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan. >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > yourself and family members instead of depending on 'professionals'. > As we all know, there are lots of incompetent doctors out there too. Wearing eyeglasses might be analogous to pounding clearance into the oil pan. Neither addresses the actual cause of the problem, but they compensate. Jim Warman would demand eye surgery and forbid the wearing of corrective lenses I suppose.
Jim Warman - 16 Oct 2007 09:56 GMT You're supposing a lot.... and opining a lot.....
Is this the same beryl that questioned equating a dent in an oil with a dent in an oil pan? And now we are comparing a dent in an oil pan with eyeglasses?
WTF? Is common sense on vacation?
beryl.... it may be a surprise..... I'm a bit of an old dog and <GASP> for reading I wear corrective lenses.... (more on reading in a bit).
I really would like to see things from your point of view and that of some guy that has a thing for Demi Moore.... But I don't think I could get my head that far up my a.s....
I've been hanging arouind this NG for a month or so (let's see.... the 92 Ex went away in 03......). AFAIK, the idea is for a DIYer to gain "professional" results from his repair efforts. The saving isn't to be gained from parts that should have been replaced but weren't... the saving is in "sweat equity"..... Certainly, for some (but not all), there is something to be gained from trying to refurbish subassemblies like transfercase shift motors, but not every DIYer has that much time on his hands....
Surprising as it may seem, I rarely see the need to resort to the ball peen hammer for most of my repair attempts.... BTW.... old as I may be... infirm as I may be... uneducated as I may be.... I still have the ability to read what is before me. The name is "warman".... "WARMAN".... remember it... I can be your best friend - or your worst nightmare.
>>>I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan. >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > compensate. Jim Warman would demand eye surgery and forbid the wearing of > corrective lenses I suppose. Beryl - 16 Oct 2007 23:45 GMT > You're supposing a lot.... and opining a lot..... > > Is this the same beryl that questioned equating a dent in an oil with a dent > in an oil pan? * Small dimples, placed where you want them. * Guy ran over, uh, "something"... caved in his oil pan. Oops. Those are the same to you? Really?
> And now we are comparing a dent in an oil pan with eyeglasses? Right.
> WTF? Is common sense on vacation? Maybe gordo will answer that.
> beryl.... it may be a surprise..... I'm a bit of an old dog and <GASP> for > reading I wear corrective lenses.... (more on reading in a bit). I saw more on reading in a bit, yes. You reminded *me* that your name is "warman".... "WARMAN".... but I'm not the one who ever misspelled your name. Get your eyeballs reshaped, Warman.
> I really would like to see things from your point of view and that of some > guy that has a thing for Demi Moore.... But I don't think I could get my [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >>compensate. Jim Warman would demand eye surgery and forbid the wearing of >>corrective lenses I suppose. Ashton Crusher - 14 Oct 2007 11:52 GMT >> I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan. >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >yourself and family members instead of depending on 'professionals'. >As we all know, there are lots of incompetent doctors out there too. So every single time you are sick or injured you go to a doctor? You never just go buy aspirin, or antacids, or allergy medicine or Band-Aid, or take your own temperature, or pull out a splinter? Every time you get a cold, or the flu, or a sore throat, or an ache or pain, you ALWAYS visit your doctor? You have never elected on your own, without being told by your doctor, to just stay in bed because you don't feel good?
ds549@webtv.net - 15 Oct 2007 01:49 GMT professional mechanics need to keep a professional do it right attitude , or you wont have many customers after a while. lucas
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