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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Explorer / October 2007

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Oil change - under truck inspection - Warmen Solution versus DIY

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Ashton Crusher - 30 Sep 2007 02:10 GMT
While changing the oil on my S-10 I noticed that the knuckles on the
center link were just barely scraping the bottom of the oil pan and
starting to wear it a little bit.   They just barely touch it at each
of the ends where the bottom of the pan curves up to form the sides.
The scrapped area is about a half inch long on each side. Truck has
176,000 miles on it. Front end was redone about a year ago by a local
shop and worn parts replaced. There's nothing loose anywhere, just
looks like the motor mounts have compressed just enough to let these
parts touch.   I'm concerned about the knuckles wearing a hole thru
the oil pan eventually.  How would a professional mechanic solve this
and would it cost much?
Jim Warman - 30 Sep 2007 03:53 GMT
S-10? Silly me, I thought this was a Ford NG....

FWIW... (and your attempt at sarcasm or what have you isn't working), the
correct method of repair is to find the faulty part(s) and repair or replace
them. That part shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

What I have seen all to often.... "unique repairs" that can and will affect
repairs made further down the road.... Jerry rigged exhaust repairs are one
of the biggest concerns... poorly thought out, they can add significantly to
the time required to R&I transmissions and other assemblies (not to mention
placing exhaust components closer to fuel lines than allowed by CMVSS
(Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) or it's US counterpart....

If push came to shove, I would be judged by these safety standards and, with
the litigious nature of modern society, I can see the day when DIYers will
also be juidged by these standards (and there are volumes of them). As
always, the safety of motor vehicles should always be the first
consideration.... Far too many lives are irrevocably changed daily because
of unssafe vehicles and/or drivers.
Ulysses - 30 Sep 2007 17:11 GMT
> S-10? Silly me, I thought this was a Ford NG....

Maybe it was Found On the Road Dead while he was Exploring.

> FWIW... (and your attempt at sarcasm or what have you isn't working),

Huh, it works for me.
Beryl - 30 Sep 2007 05:50 GMT
> While changing the oil on my S-10 I noticed that the knuckles on the
> center link were just barely scraping the bottom of the oil pan and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the oil pan eventually.  How would a professional mechanic solve this
> and would it cost much?

Ball-peen hammer on the pan, obviously!
Ashton Crusher - 30 Sep 2007 07:21 GMT
>> While changing the oil on my S-10 I noticed that the knuckles on the
>> center link were just barely scraping the bottom of the oil pan and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Ball-peen hammer on the pan, obviously!

Bingo!
Jim Warman - 30 Sep 2007 18:11 GMT
Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave
man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no
need for any "professional" references here. The kid down at Kwikee Loob
could do that for you.

There are usually several things that can be done to alleviate any given
concern... only one of them is "right".... though many may "suffice".
Professionals don't piss around with hack jobs - plain and simple.

Not too long ago, we had the proud owner of a SuperDuty V10 with a roached
motor.... He is confident that his warranty is going to take care of him....
And that is when we discovered he had hit something with his oil pan. The
resulting dent was directly below the oil pan pick up..... this added
restriction to oil flow was the death of his engine bearings.

You may congratulate yourself on your unique approach to problem solving....
possibly, rightfully so...

I can only assume that you and I live in two very different worlds.... My
customers insist that I repair their vehicles in a manner that I am
comfortable with - they do not easily abide return visits for the same
concern - nor will they accept side effects from anything that I have done
that could be considered "unique". Of interesting note... we have some local
shops that do fix things with a ball peen hammer.... These are the same
shops that send me their "unfixables".

DIYers will do and accept many things that they would refuse to pay money
for.... Would you part with significant amounts of coin of the realm for
something that is "good enough"?

I see we are destined to be at loggerheads vis-a-vis our differing
attitudes... for my part, if it ain't right, I will refuse to stake my
reputation on it.....

Cooking is one of my hobbies.... if you want a Big Mac - it wont come off my
grille.
Explorer1994 4.0L - 01 Oct 2007 05:28 GMT
> Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave
> man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Cooking is one of my hobbies.... if you want a Big Mac - it wont come off my
> grille.

I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan.

I disagree with Mr. Warren. DIY maintenance is an economical thing and
safe thing to do when servicing such things as fluid changes (eg. oil,
transmission, brake, steering, differential, coolant, etc....). Bottom
line, dealerships and JiffyLubes charge outrageous prices for such
simple procedures. Second, the probability of the dealership/jiffrips
not providing you with high quality service, is even lower.   Mr
Warren wants you to believe in his quasi-professional designations as
a 'professional' mechanic. The consumer has no recourse when facing
such professions. There is no professional body that you can turn to,
if a mechanic screws your car, and get immediate financial relief. The
only way, is through the legal-court system. Bottom line #2, the
transaction between you and the mechanic comes down to trust. And if
you trust an auto-mechanic, you should seek immediate psychiatric help
since you must also purchase your cars from used car sales.

What the Mr. Warrens out there don't want you is the know-how (that
is, the ability to read a service manual/Haynes/ask a Ford mechanic,
if he doesn't charge you an arm and a leg for that advice), and the
confidence of having the ability to complete such simple procedures.
If you can twist a screw, then you're 90 percent there to changing the
fluids in your car.

If you have the means to keep the DIY job clean, ordered, and have the
space to do it (eg. a garage), then you have access to saving money
that can be better invested elsewhere.

On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle
cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er.
Bob - 02 Oct 2007 03:53 GMT
>> Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave
>> man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle
> cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er.

I agree with you most of the quickie jiffy etc lube places will "gouge
you like an animal" Their goal is not doing a quality service, it's
making as much money as possible. They'll do as much damage as
the least skilled diy'er. I've seen their work on many vehicles- they do
things like throw away the screws that hold down your air cleaner
housing because they're too lazy to replace them and you'll probably
never notice. I had a truck my employer insisted I maintain at Dippy
Lube for the life of the truck they never lubed
the chassis or checked the battery although they said they did. And like
you say, if you complain all you get is attitude.

But there are honest highly skilled mechanics out there. I believe "Mr.
Warren" (Jim Warman) is one of them. I've found one in my town and he'll
have my business until he retires. I'm sure he's saved me more money
over the years (finding things that if left unattended would be very
expensive later) than I would have saved doing it myself.

I've seen lots of diy'ers spend way more than they would on a good
mechanic. Things like replacing the $100 starter when it's a $5 relay
causing the problem. Troubleshooting by replacing parts is very expensive.

A highly skilled honest mechanic is worth every penny and will probably
save you money in the long run.
Ashton Crusher - 02 Oct 2007 06:21 GMT
>> Well.. that explains that... you don't want a mechanic... you want a cave
>> man..... FWIW, any hack can beat the piss out of your oil pan..... I see no
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>If you can twist a screw, then you're 90 percent there to changing the
>fluids in your car.

Jim's honest enough and seems well qualified.  He just has a view that
any shortcut is wrong, esp if done by a DIYer.  Oddly enough, if the
same shortcut was to be outlined in a TSB from the Manufacturer I
don't think he'd have any trouble following it.  That's a blind spot
many people in many professions have - if they don't get told what to
do by the anointed expert they can't imagine it could be a proper
thing to do.

>If you have the means to keep the DIY job clean, ordered, and have the
>space to do it (eg. a garage), then you have access to saving money
>that can be better invested elsewhere.
>
>On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle
>cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er.

I"ve certainly seen a lot more expertise in these newsgroups from
"amateurs" then what I've typically seen from mechanics at
"professional" shops.
Jim Warman - 02 Oct 2007 07:46 GMT
Not wanting to be misunderstood.... there are some viable shortcuts.... I
use some and try to pass the savings along to my customers.... Sometimes,
this can be difficult with "menu" pricing, but I offer my input loudly when
I feel we are approaching any sort of overcharge....

There are many problems with shortcuts.... some involve bending something
that doesn't want to be bent... others (such as caving in an oil pan
indiscriminately) MAY have far reaching and very expensive after-effects...
and still others are just plain bad ideas.....

If a shop takes a shortcut and screws up, the customer should have some
recourse.... but a tech that takes poorly considered shortcuts deserves to
be shot with a ball of his own sh.t to begin with..... too many shortcuts
are poorly considered. I've been doing this stuff since 1968ish... in that
nearly 40 years, I can tell you that, time and again, "cheap ain't".

Many DIYers are DIYing out of financial necessity... these are the guys that
cannot afford gambling with shortcuts or ill conceived patch jobs. Some
DIYers simply revel in the feeling of a job well done....

The crux of the matter is "are we actually fixing something or are we simply
postponing it so it can cost us a real bundle down the road?". Far be it
from me to speak as if I had any kind of experience... if you guys want to
re-invent the wheel, go for it, I spent many years both self employed and
working for independent shops. Too often, a DIYer would get in over his head
and bring us a large, car shaped piece of sh.t - the victim of too many
shortcuts - and now, we must tell the owner that it is going to cost a lot
of money to get this thing back to where we can repair it confidently and
SAFELY.

At the same time, I've had DIYers bring me cars that are chock full of new
parts - to the tune of well over $1,000..... This can generate one of two
scenarios.... The fix would have been a couple of hun for a poor
connection/open circuit...... of one or more of the new parts was damaged on
installation (I've had more than one apprentice on "autopilot" cost me this
way).

If you guys want to call me an a.shole because I tell you that your thought
process is lacking in experience and knowledge - so be it... it ain't my
f.cking wallet and it ain't my f.cking car.... Quite frankly, if you are
shivering your a.s off on the side of the road because you felt my
suggestions are too "elite", I will be at home, snug and comfortable because
I don't piss around with some machine that doesn't care about me (no matter
what cutesy name you can give it - "Ol' Blue" or "NellyBelle" or "Mayflower"
(because all the girls came across in it)) or can kill me in a heartbeat (or
a frigid northern Alberta winter).

If you feel that you deserve second rate sh.t.... be my guest... Me? I
refuse to subject my loved ones to what may happen from saving a few bucks
through improper repairs.... it doesn't matter if a DIYer does it improperly
or if a "trained professional" does it improperly - wrong is "wrong"....
period.
Beryl - 02 Oct 2007 09:24 GMT
> There are many problems with shortcuts.... some involve bending something
> that doesn't want to be bent... others (such as caving in an oil pan

Oh come on, caving in an oil pan? I'd say slightly "reshaping" the oil
pan. Chevy evidently lacked some foresight here.

I understand your philosophy, and if this were aviation you'd be right
99% of the time. But it's a beater truck.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pragmatic
... relating to matters of fact or practical affairs often to the
exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters : practical as opposed to
idealistic
Jim Warman - 04 Oct 2007 04:50 GMT
I have never asked any one to agree with me... so let's forget the "Oh come
on....". As for "caving in an oil pan...", you must have missed the
reference to restricting the oil pump pick up.....

Once more from the top..... IT AIN'T MY f.cking WALLET...... IT AIN'T MY
f.cking CAR.... DO WHAT YOU f.cking WANT... I will, however, be there to say
"I told you so....".

There are a lot of "so-called" techs out there that don't consider the the
outcome of their actions... and they will gladly do those things that miught
cost dearly in the future.... In the case of the V10 with the caved in oil
pan, the owner recalled running over something two oil changes (performed by
him) before his symptoms manifested themselves.

Not everything that happens to a car happens overnight.... Most things are
cummulative. Something that appears quite innocent can come back to haunt a
long time after the fact....

Bottom line.... I speak from my experience..... if you don't like that,
ignore it.... Nearly 40 years of doing, seeing, watching can't mean much
when all that stands between "me" and relief is a few swats with a ball peen
hammer, right? Do what you like, you wont change my mind...... For some odd
reason, I feel that there is a chance I might know better....

Now.... you can listen to my advice... or you can ignore it..... The people
I must please live in my town.... and pleased they are.....

Have a good day....

>> There are many problems with shortcuts.... some involve bending something
>> that doesn't want to be bent... others (such as caving in an oil pan
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters : practical as opposed to
> idealistic
Beryl - 04 Oct 2007 06:17 GMT
> I have never asked any one to agree with me... so let's forget the "Oh come
> on....". As for "caving in an oil pan...", you must have missed the
> reference to restricting the oil pump pick up.....

Nope, didn't miss that. You're charging that SuperDuty V10 owner with
"caving in an oil pan indiscriminately"??

> .... In the case of the V10 with the caved in oil
> pan, the owner recalled running over something two oil changes (performed by

Oh, come on! Ashton Crusher aiming a bell-peen hammer to make little
dimples and a guy that ran over something are not the same.
Jim Warman - 06 Oct 2007 13:30 GMT
And you can be sure of that because?????????

I'm not saying that this wont alleviate his problem.... but I can't say that
it wont cause other problems in it's wake, either.... You must remember that
some of our shops income is derived from cheapie repairs gone bad... I feel
badly for customers that come to us as a "last resort" because they've
dumped a ton of money into ill considered DIY things (usually followed by
dumping a ton of money into a "bargain" shop) and it winds up on my
doorstep..... but the rude fact of the matter is that our door rate is our
door rate..... And if the repair has been done correctly to begin with,
there wont be other issues down the road....

Ashton is quite comfortable with his hammer.... but, sagged motor mounts are
sagged motor mounts... and they are also "suspect" motor mounts, in my mind.
If the rubber has deteriorated to the point where the mount has changed
"shape".... predict the point of failure with the bonding....

What seems to be lost on some is that I am also a DIYer.... who'd-da-thunk?
For my own vehicles, I don't abide things being "bad".... If I saw a "need"
to bash in my oil pan (or anything else, for that matter), I'd be looking
for what ever has gone wrong to make bashing in my oil pan a necessity....
After all, the pan wasn't bashed in from the factory - why would it need to
be bashed in now?

When it comes to cars, the only thing that you can be sure of is that,
somewhere along the line, you are going to open your wallet.... Like dining
out.... you can spend a few bucks to be in a relaxed. mid-scale restaraunt
eating food that some chef cared about..... or you can go down to the golden
arches and have "something" prepared by a kid that should be doing his
homework and whose only thought is waiting for the deep fryer to go "DING"
(that and what he and his friends did last night)....

Me? I prefer the mid-scale dining..... I don't put a lot of miles on my
iron.... but my loving bride often has to travel our winter highways
alone.... and I will not abide a breakdown..... If I go somewhere myself, I
want any of my vehicles to be ready to go.... and it is going to be as right
as I can possibly make it because this is my assurance of dependability....
My time is too precious to me to spend it trying to be a "hack mechanic"....

And that brings us to another point..... the "hack mechanics" that everyone
loves to complain about.... Years ago, I did indeed try some "creative"
repairs to try and save cash strapped owners a few bucks..... These would
usually come back to bite me and, being the honest sort, I would stand
behind my warranty. For every dollar I "saved" my customer by "cheaping
out", I would end up about five dollars out of pocket doing it the way it
should have been done to begin with.

So... if you guys want to bash the piss out of something - anything with a
ball peen hammer.... I would suggest you resist the urge to bust my chops
when I mention that this might not be the way to go.... it's your truck -
wail away.... but do NOT pretend that this is the way a professional should
handle your concern.

I can see it now.... the TV repair guy can give you two prices.... for the
big dollar, he can fix your TV.... for a few bucks less, he can paint an "X"
on the side that shows where to hit it when it acts up.....

>> I have never asked any one to agree with me... so let's forget the "Oh
>> come on....". As for "caving in an oil pan...", you must have missed the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Oh, come on! Ashton Crusher aiming a bell-peen hammer to make little
> dimples and a guy that ran over something are not the same.
Ashton Crusher - 04 Oct 2007 07:31 GMT
>Not wanting to be misunderstood.... there are some viable shortcuts.... I
>use some and try to pass the savings along to my customers.... Sometimes,
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>or if a "trained professional" does it improperly - wrong is "wrong"....
>period.

Keep in mind that just about the only DIYers you see are the ones who
screw up.  So it's not a valid sample.

What would you think of this ...

As with most bucket seats, this one is bolted down with the usual four
bolts.  It's also located in position by a couple locating pins, about
3/8" diam that stick thru the floorboards near where the front bolts
go.  To make the seat snug down better (it wasn't not tightening up
enough and was squeaking) the owner cut the locating pins off and
re-bolted it back down.  That stopped the squeak.
Beryl - 05 Oct 2007 05:39 GMT
> What would you think of this ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> enough and was squeaking) the owner cut the locating pins off and
> re-bolted it back down.  That stopped the squeak.

Those pins might have been intended to take shear forces in a crash.
3/8" seems pretty stout for "locating" pins that aren't needed after the
bolts are in.
Ashton Crusher - 06 Oct 2007 06:21 GMT
>> What would you think of this ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>3/8" seems pretty stout for "locating" pins that aren't needed after the
>bolts are in.

Maybe.  The above "solution" is the official Toyota fix for the
squeak.  If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics
would have thrown a fit.
Jim Warman - 06 Oct 2007 13:59 GMT
If the above solution was the "factory" fix, you can bet that engineering
would have been involved in the decision process.... You forget that, as a
dealer tech, I am also involved in these sorts of activities.... There was a
recall on certain model year Escapes that had us drill specified size holes
in specific locations in some foam blocks at the top of the A pillar....
This was an engineering thing to reduce the chance of head injury in a
collision....

For the owner of the Toyota, if this was, indeed, the "factory" fix.... I
can say nothing.... if, however, this was some cavalier way that the dealer
solved this concern without consulting engineering, what can I say? It was
you that opened the door to things involving occupant safety and
survivability.... I hope you haven't confused "factory" fix with "field"
hack.

You are going to have to remember that performing this work carries a
certain amount of liability and exposure for litigation to a tech. You are
also going to have to remember that I don't work on Toyotas - and I don't
pretend to give Toyota advice, either....

The safety and dependability of your automobile is more important than some
consider.... We do have some customers that drive from one breakdown to the
next.... they are forever frustrated and forever inconvenienced. And no
amount of admonishment can make them see that there is an alternative....
Temporary field repairs can only ever be "temporary field repairs" and
should never be considered as the "final fix".... But, you guys have never
lifted a truck to see the tie rods held together with moose hide strips or
bicycle inner tubes, either.

At the very least, Ashton and a couple of others are making this NG
something less than fun.... I sold my Explorer several years ago.... It was
a fun little car to drive.... not quite 250,000 kms on it when I sold it and
it is still on the road today.... When it started pulling to the right, I
gave it an alignment.... I put lower intake gaskets in to it and, whenever
the need arose, I replaced any necessary parts.... never once feeling the
urge to take a hammer to things or seeing the need for "creative" repairs.

Since I am Explorerless.... and since the vocal minority would prefer
substandard repairs, perhaps it is time for this old dog to move on.....

Have a good day.....

>>> What would you think of this ...
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> squeak.  If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics
> would have thrown a fit.
Bob - 07 Oct 2007 01:25 GMT
> If the above solution was the "factory" fix, you can bet that engineering
> would have been involved in the decision process.... You forget that, as a
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>> squeak.  If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics
>> would have thrown a fit.

Now you've all gone and pissed off Jim Warman, one of the best resources
this group has. A Master Ford technician dispensing free (possibly
acerbic but always valuable) help with our Explorers. Hey Jim I stuck up
for you. Don't go away! I promise to never smash my truck with a hammer.
Ashton Crusher - 07 Oct 2007 01:28 GMT
>If the above solution was the "factory" fix, you can bet that engineering
>would have been involved in the decision process.... You forget that, as a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>This was an engineering thing to reduce the chance of head injury in a
>collision....

Hmm, how interesting.  You might consider that many of the "proper
fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because
the "experts" screwed up in the first place.

>For the owner of the Toyota, if this was, indeed, the "factory" fix.... I
>can say nothing.... if, however, this was some cavalier way that the dealer
>solved this concern without consulting engineering, what can I say? It was
>you that opened the door to things involving occupant safety and
>survivability.... I hope you haven't confused "factory" fix with "field"
>hack.

Nope.

>You are going to have to remember that performing this work carries a
>certain amount of liability and exposure for litigation to a tech. You are
>also going to have to remember that I don't work on Toyotas - and I don't
>pretend to give Toyota advice, either....

I covered that in a prior post.

>The safety and dependability of your automobile is more important than some
>consider.... We do have some customers that drive from one breakdown to the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>lifted a truck to see the tie rods held together with moose hide strips or
>bicycle inner tubes, either.

Ah, the patented "Warman pronouncement".  Why do you assume no one
who's a DIYer has ever seen a bad hack job?  I've seen and fixed
plenty.

>At the very least, Ashton and a couple of others are making this NG
>something less than fun..

That's an interesting viewpoint Jim.  I guess you can't see the other
side of the coin.  For people who are looking for "how to" fix
something without having to spend a fortune it's not a lot of fun for
them (and the people who help them), to ask a question here, be told
by someone who's made a fix in a DIY way with excellent success, how
to fix it, to then get lectured by you as to what an idiot they are
and how they would be a fool to follow any  advice other then yours.
You can't seem to accept that not every DIYer is an idiot with no
skills and no sense and that not every DIY fix is some untested hack
job.  



.. I sold my Explorer several years ago.... It was
>a fun little car to drive.... not quite 250,000 kms on it when I sold it and
>it is still on the road today.... When it started pulling to the right, I
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>> squeak.  If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics
>> would have thrown a fit.
Jim Warman - 11 Oct 2007 09:52 GMT
The holes... ahhhh, yes... the holes..... These would be the holes we drill
using a special locating jig and a "stopped" auger bit..... You have visions
of someone drilling holes willy-nilly.... The truth is that the holes are as
precisely located in the field as possible (using the afformentioned
locating jig)... the auger bit size is specified and the depth of the holes
are specified.... This fix has had engineers involved.... Some where along
the line, one engineer has to "sign off" on the fix stating that this is
going to avoid head injuries.... litigation..... human suffering....

That we have "experts" available to make mistakes is a testament to the
state of the art vis-a-vis automotive technology today.... The engineers
step up to the plate and say "we f.cked up - let's make it right".

Let's go back to the oil pan.... When the truck was new, it didn't need
dents in the oil pan for things to be right. Suddenly, it *needs* dents in
the oil pan..... Obviously, it is the oil pan that is faulty..... So.... I
guess that pesky oil pan must have swollen up during the middle of the
night - perhaps a poultice might be a better choice....

But...... rather than fix the problem properly, we'll bash away at the oil
pan and call the guy that is going to fix the REAL concern a dork. I'm
amazed - I'm flabbergasted.... I will be called a hack because I didn't fix
something right... but I can now be a hack because I didn't "hack" a repair.

Let's put it this way.... if you want your truck to be as good as it can
be.... if you want me to be honest with you and tell you that this truck is
beyond help, dump it... Come and see me.... If you love living life "on the
edge".... if you can commune with nature while waiting for a tow.... if you
are looking for "substandard" - you WILL be somebody elses customer.... and
he (through many of the other forums I frequent - I don't watch TV) just may
come to me to ask what I would do.... After he wastes most of your available
cash.

There are many ways to solve a problem... how many of them are the best
solution - the right solution? If you like sh.t.... enjoy it.... don't try
to convince everyone else that they will like sh.t too....

> Hmm, how interesting.  You might consider that many of the "proper
> fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because
> the "experts" screwed up in the first place.
Ashton Crusher - 14 Oct 2007 11:46 GMT
>The holes... ahhhh, yes... the holes..... These would be the holes we drill
>using a special locating jig and a "stopped" auger bit..... You have visions
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>solution - the right solution? If you like sh.t.... enjoy it.... don't try
>to convince everyone else that they will like sh.t too....

As usual you just go off on a rant and ignore everything in the
message you are ostensibly replying to.  You build your usual straw
man that has no connection to reality.  You say I bashed my oil pan as
if I took a sledge hammer to it and put dents the size of baseballs in
it.  The "dents" were all of 1/8" deep.  But don't let facts get in
the way of your insults.  Below is a "Warmanized" reply...

Based on your constant recitation of the same thing over and over
again (spend money, buy lots of parts)  it's obvious that everything
you work on winds up costing the owner a ton of money before you are
done with it.  As a result your shop gets a huge number of complaints
about your overpriced work.  Since there are few other repair shops in
the area your customers don't have many options.  The owner of your
place of employment most likely thinks you are a heck of a mechanic
since between all the hugely marked up parts you sell and all the
labor you rack up I'm sure he's making a killing off this racket and
has no interest in changing a thing.  You must have gotten your
training at a Sears Auto Center - you remember them don't you, the
ones that the attorney generals in multiple states investigated and
put out of business for making unneeded repairs, price gouging, and
charging for repairs never made.

..........  of course I don't actually believe the above, but if I
replied in the same hysterical and factually deficient way you do,
that's what would result.

>> Hmm, how interesting.  You might consider that many of the "proper
>> fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because
>> the "experts" screwed up in the first place.
Jim Warman - 16 Oct 2007 09:27 GMT
Think what you want...

As things stand, if I don't fix something right this week, I may well fix it
for free (and properly) next week.... It's not me decding what is the best
repair strategy, it is the car and I am simply the translator.....

When we get into modifications (and even dents in the oil pan are
modifications), we are entering an area where one change often begets
another.... and another... and another.... The chance of having some
Frankenstein sitting in the drieway that nobody can fix without a big
checquebook is all too real... And THIS, young sir, is a trap many
inexperienced DIYers fall into....

When I first started out in my own business, I had the dream of being that
guy that could fix cars well and for much cheaper. In reality, I bought
myself a job... a poor paying job ... where it was common for a customer to
come to pick up his car saying "I don't have the money today - but I
can.....". And it was just as common for a customer to forget what was saved
doing a piecemeal repair (because he didn't want or have the cash to spend)
when things went bad - "You f*cked up my car!!!".

Then, I moved a little further uptown.... I do only that quality of repair
that I would do on my own vehicles. With this comes the understanding that
many parts on a car are considered "sacrificial"... and with the
understanding that, if I am into a repair in a particular area, there are
parts that might be more economically changed now rather than a month or two
or three from now.

Let's say you have a bad rear wheel seal on an 8.8 diff..... Do you go in
and replace only the seal that is leaking? Or will you replace them both?
Let's not allow a piffling thing like realizing that both rear wheel seals
have had a very similar life - and one has already failed....

Whoops.... lookee there - the brake shoes are contaminated with oil... Now
there are a lot of rules and accepted industry standards (not to mention
liability and litigation concerns) that I must follow..... (You, being a
DIYer, are allowed to thumb your nose at these common sense
onsiderations  - and even if something went wrong to the point of
litigation, you can plead inexperience). So... contaminated brake shoes just
ain't going to make it out of my store.... I don't care how many times
someone tells me they wont blame me if something goes bad.... Now we notice
that the brake hardware (springs and such) have been subject to the ravages
of time - and nature..... I don't care if you trust it or not.... If *I*
don't trust it, the job isn't going to get done - not in my store, anyway.
And the list can grow.... what shape are the drums in.... how about the
e-brakes.... the wheel cylinders..... All of these desparately need to be up
to snuff. Because if one of them is going to be considered as contributing
to an MVA, I do not want to be named a correspondant....

It can be easy to confuse "oversell" with doing something the way it should
be done.... On one hand, the owner might have an idea of how much he may be
willing to invest in any repair strategy..... On the other hand, an owner
will demand that he makes as few visits to the shop as possible.... I have a
LOT of customers that insist that brake pads are changed when wear
approaches 50%.... The few bucks worth of usable brake pad that are
discarded are more than offset by removig the inconvenience of another visit
to the shop... quite possibly at an inopportune time.... Interesting thing
with sacrificial parts... we can change them when it is convenient for
us.... or we can wait for them to be a problem that can both cause further
damage and/or become a very real inconvenience.

So..... since my customers look to me for guidance, it is up to me to
recommend a repair strategy... one that will minimize the number of times
they return to the shop (inconvenience), one that will minimize the number
of times they "waste money" on duplicate labour ops, one that will, in the
end, give them "more bang for the buck".... one that will, over the life of
the vehicle, result in a lower cost per mile of operation.....

Now... let's mention your "dents".... We finally have at least some
description of your dents.... I'm still not impressed with your brand of
ingenuity. Your engine mounts, by your description, have sagged.... Even
now, there could be a drone or vibration that you don't realize..... I
vaguely recall you mentioning that the mounts have been replaced - since
they have sagged, I must assume they were replaced with the cheapest parts
available.... . If you don't feel a drone or vibration, we can assume one of
two things.... it isn't there to be felt (yet) - or, a buyer may pass up
this vehicle whenever it may be offered for sale because something "isn't
right".  If the mounts have deteriorated in a short span, there is a very
real chance that this deterioration may continue and you will once again
replace the mounts... this is the gamble.... I don't have the luxury of
gambling with other peoples money..... But, if you do have to replace the
mounts again, you now have dents in your oil pan.... and neither one of us
has any idea if these dents are in a critical area or not....

The guy that ran over something in the road drove for a long, long time
before the problem became an issue... and when it became an issue, it cost
him a lot of money and downtime (isn't this what DIYing is supposed to
"SAVE"?).

DIYing shouldn't be an adventure in "how to hack a repair"... it doesn't
work..... damned near 40 years of doing this has proven it time and time
again.

Bars Leaks (or Silver Stallion or any of those other homeopathic remedies)
isn't a "repair"... it's a placebo. And when the concern comes back (and it
will), it will come back with a vengeance.

Dents or other modifications to other areas of a car aren't likely to offer
instantaneous symptoms of a concern.... many of these can take many miles
for the first symptoms to become obvious... and it is at this time that it
is already too late in far too many cases.

Back when I was younger, I thought I knew it all..... dents in oil pans....
cheapy stop gap measures.... I was gonna save the world.... Now I'm a lot
longer in the tooth.... I've been doing this sh.t since before you were a
gleam in daddys eye... and I can look people in the eye and say "I don't
know jack sh.t about this stuff"... It's easy to think this stuff is
simple.... But if you want to save money, do it once - do it right.

But people come here because they lack the experience to diagnose a concern,
the knowledge to diagnose a concern, the ability to diagnose a concern, the
patience to diagnose a concern or the facilities to diagnose a concern (or
any combination of the list). Puff your feathers all you want... there are a
hundred ways to "fix" a problem..... only one of them is going to be right
and only one of them is going to be dependable.

When push comes to shove..... I have a lot of people that drive on the roads
in our area that I admire, consider friends or even love..... I do not enjoy
the notion that there is the chance that some jerry rigged, ill considered,
"accident looking for a place to happen" is hurtling towards them at
break-neck speed....

As a (retired) rescue tech with our local fire department and in my capacity
in assisting with accident reconstruction with our local LEOs, IO get to see
many tjhings that you haven't even considered.....

Which brings us to a crucial consideration.... "haven't even
considered"....... I may be old and I may be cranky.... You might even think
I "oversell".... I'm booked over two weeks in advance right now.... I work
12 hour days..... and my customers go away happy....

>>The holes... ahhhh, yes... the holes..... These would be the holes we
>>drill
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>>> fixes", such as the holes you drilled, are needed precisely because
>>> the "experts" screwed up in the first place.
Beryl - 16 Oct 2007 23:57 GMT
> Puff your feathers all you want... there are a
> hundred ways to "fix" a problem..... only one of them is going to be right
> and only one of them is going to be dependable.

Ever have the famous Blend Door failure with your own Explorer? Ever fix
one for someone else? Tell me why your repair was "right", what it cost,
how dependable it was going to be.
Ulysses - 08 Oct 2007 00:51 GMT
> Since I am Explorerless.... and since the vocal minority would prefer
> substandard repairs, perhaps it is time for this old dog to move on.....
>
> Have a good day.....

Lemmesee... you just wrote a very helpful, detailed explanation on how to
check a transfer case and also how to repair it, right down to the special
tools needed.  And you didn't even call anyone any names (the wailing hammer
comment was fair and justified).  I consider that to be worthwhile.

> >>> What would you think of this ...
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > squeak.  If a DIYer had done the same, certain professional mechanics
> > would have thrown a fit.
gordo - 13 Oct 2007 21:22 GMT
> I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> On a daily basis, there are more 'professional' mechanics that mangle
> cars without providing the consumers the 'heads up,, than a DYI'er.

If you want to save a HUGE amount money, you should be performing DIY medical care and surgery on
yourself and family members instead of depending on 'professionals'.
As we all know, there are lots of incompetent doctors out there too.
Beryl - 14 Oct 2007 06:26 GMT
>>I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> yourself and family members instead of depending on 'professionals'.
> As we all know, there are lots of incompetent doctors out there too.

Wearing eyeglasses might be analogous to pounding clearance into the oil
pan. Neither addresses the actual cause of the problem, but they
compensate. Jim Warman would demand eye surgery and forbid the wearing
of corrective lenses I suppose.
Jim Warman - 16 Oct 2007 09:56 GMT
You're supposing a lot.... and opining a lot.....

Is this the same beryl that questioned equating a dent in an oil with a dent
in an oil pan? And now we are comparing a dent in an oil pan with
eyeglasses?

WTF? Is common sense on vacation?

beryl.... it may be a surprise..... I'm a bit of an old dog and <GASP> for
reading I wear corrective lenses.... (more on reading in a bit).

I really would like to see things from your point of view and that of some
guy that has a thing for Demi Moore.... But I don't think I could get my
head that far up my a.s....

I've been hanging arouind this NG for a month or so (let's see.... the 92 Ex
went away in 03......). AFAIK, the idea is for a DIYer to gain
"professional" results from his repair efforts. The saving isn't to be
gained from parts that should have been replaced but weren't... the saving
is in "sweat equity"..... Certainly, for some (but not all), there is
something to be gained from trying to refurbish subassemblies like
transfercase shift motors, but not every DIYer has that much time on his
hands....

Surprising as it may seem, I rarely see the need to resort to the ball peen
hammer for most of my repair attempts.... BTW.... old as I may be... infirm
as I may be... uneducated as I may be.... I still have the ability to read
what is before me. The name is "warman".... "WARMAN".... remember it... I
can be your best friend - or your worst nightmare.

>>>I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> compensate. Jim Warman would demand eye surgery and forbid the wearing of
> corrective lenses I suppose.
Beryl - 16 Oct 2007 23:45 GMT
> You're supposing a lot.... and opining a lot.....
>
> Is this the same beryl that questioned equating a dent in an oil with a dent
> in an oil pan?

* Small dimples, placed where you want them.
* Guy ran over, uh, "something"... caved in his oil pan. Oops.
Those are the same to you? Really?

> And now we are comparing a dent in an oil pan with eyeglasses?

Right.

> WTF? Is common sense on vacation?

Maybe gordo will answer that.

> beryl.... it may be a surprise..... I'm a bit of an old dog and <GASP> for
> reading I wear corrective lenses.... (more on reading in a bit).

I saw more on reading in a bit, yes. You reminded *me* that your name is
"warman".... "WARMAN".... but I'm not the one who ever misspelled your
name. Get your eyeballs reshaped, Warman.

> I really would like to see things from your point of view and that of some
> guy that has a thing for Demi Moore.... But I don't think I could get my
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>>compensate. Jim Warman would demand eye surgery and forbid the wearing of
>>corrective lenses I suppose.
Ashton Crusher - 14 Oct 2007 11:52 GMT
>> I 2nd that. Ball-peen hammer on the pan.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>yourself and family members instead of depending on 'professionals'.
>As we all know, there are lots of incompetent doctors out there too.

So every single time you are sick or injured you go to a doctor?  You
never just go buy aspirin, or antacids, or allergy medicine or
Band-Aid, or take your own temperature, or pull out a splinter?  Every
time you get a cold, or the flu, or a sore throat, or an ache or pain,
you ALWAYS visit your doctor?  You have never elected on your own,
without being told by your doctor, to just stay in bed because you
don't feel good?
ds549@webtv.net - 15 Oct 2007 01:49 GMT
professional mechanics need to keep a professional do it right
attitude , or you wont have many customers after a while. lucas  

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

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