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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Explorer / December 200794 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
The saga continues.... Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and replaced 2 lifters. Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten, for a minute anyway. Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor. Fuel pressure is good and steady. Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested within within range. Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3 times. I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs. Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes: 111 -- All systems OK 10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test (had compression test and OK) 211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change) When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking. HELP....... Thanks Jim Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter. >The saga continues.... > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Thanks Jim You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition. How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, sputters and dies, or all of the sudden. When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction? Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the mixture. Are all the engine grounds clean and tight? Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors? Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to wait for an hour though. What is the fuel pressure you have? Good luck > Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter. > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> >>Thanks Jim I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one of these areas. Correct? >You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition. If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the running duration is about the same, roughly a minute >How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, >sputters and dies, or all of the sudden. If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction. >When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound >as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction? This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even as it dies. >Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light >may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the >mixture. Yes, I double checked those. >Are all the engine grounds clean and tight? No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any suggestions? >Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors? Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage. >Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the >exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to >wait for an hour though. Fuel pressure is 36psi. >What is the fuel pressure you have? Thanks, I need it at this point. >Good luck > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>> >>>Thanks Jim Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion. Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose reversed? Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe? Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not. To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from the injectors. To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it does not, then you know the problem is electrical. Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the crank and camshaft position sensors. Good luck! > I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one > of these areas. Correct? [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] >>>> >>>>Thanks Jim There are a couple of other observations I should note: The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart easily which is not the case now. 1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect. 2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild. 3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle. >Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of >fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion. No, the fittings are different sizes >Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose >reversed? Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the exhaust and black soot. >Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe? I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for testing purposes? >Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark >should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it >hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not. Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable? >To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for >one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small >lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would >be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the >crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from >the injectors. Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake manifold then reattach the throttle body? >To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid >right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it >does not, then you know the problem is electrical. As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items you mention above. >Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the >crank and camshaft position sensors. > >Good luck! or a grenade :-) By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks >> I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one >> of these areas. Correct? [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] >>>>> >>>>>Thanks Jim Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical or fuel system. So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start. This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted? I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap. The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine. How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor? Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter from the exhaust pipe? Was the engine burning oil? Could the cat be plugged? Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south east FL i can give you a hand. Again, good luck! > There are a couple of other observations I should note: > The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor [quoted text clipped - 150 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks Jim If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot, well ocassionally maybe. >Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >or fuel system. Tried this with carb and choke cleaner >So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction >duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress >the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the >starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If >the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start. I had to this by myself and quickly. 1) Removed air duct 2) Sprayed some into open throttle body 3) Tried to restart, no start. 4) Sprayed lots 5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started 6) Sprayed lots more 7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5 This may have been more effective with another person helping Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using the carb cleaner. >This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine >flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while >cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now? >The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could they be fouled? >Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted? Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well). >I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose >the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine. I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same. >How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor? Would this be the next step? >Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter >from the exhaust pipe? No >Was the engine burning oil? How do I check for plugged cat conv? >Could the cat be plugged? I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona >Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south >east FL i can give you a hand. Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful. >Again, good luck! > [quoted text clipped - 152 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Thanks Jim Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system and for now we can forget about the rest. Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail. Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way is more cumbersome but more realistic as well. If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity. Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set. I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or black with lots of soot or deposits. To check the cat converter, use this as reference: http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm Good luck! > If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also > identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I [quoted text clipped - 241 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thanks Jim >Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system >and for now we can forget about the rest. On the rail at 30 psi >Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it >before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail. I used an automotive sethoscope and checked #1 and #2 and heard the steady clicking. I should also note that #1 sounded weak compareded to #2, but #1 is hard to get to so that I may not be getting onto the metal body. If I hear the clicking do I still need to do the lamp test? >Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the >injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into >the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from >touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and >see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way >is more cumbersome but more realistic as well. I agree about all six at once, unless there is a voltage drop that would be too low to actuate the solenoid. >If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and >you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and >the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then >indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my >experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity. Mine is not adjustable, plug and play... >Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not >sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set. Pulled 2 and they looked OK. >I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see >that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or >black with lots of soot or deposits. Just started reading the article and the beginning lists all of the symptoms I'm experiencing and would make sense that as the engine warms up the symptoms become exaggerated. Since I was probably burning as much coolant as fuel that would certainly plug up the converter. Now that I have repaired the the combustion chamber issues as in valves ground, new valve stem seals, head gasket, new plugs, etc. the load on the converter would be greater and creating excessive back pressure, if I'm reading this right. BUT why would it run so smooth right after the rebuild progressively get worse with each additional start the last couple of days. Of course having the car sit for a bit (between starts) would allow the converter to cool down. I guess its time to disconnect it and see what happens. >To check the cat converter, use this as reference: >http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm The burning of coolant must have been going on after I had a severe overheating issue a couple of years ago and now it may have finally caught up with me. Hopefully, its the converter. At least the problem will be solved. >Good luck! > [quoted text clipped - 243 lines] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead. How old is the fuel in the gas tank? From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would need a helper, or a remote starter . It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran when you sprayed the cleaner. When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did you use the spark tester? You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or excess fuel? http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and see what happens. I think you are on the right track to solve your problem, almost there imho. Good luck! >>Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system >>and for now we can forget about the rest. [quoted text clipped - 307 lines] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim I'm going to do this if the cat converter experiment fails. >When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when >the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as >bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead. 3 weeks old >How old is the fuel in the gas tank? I tried that until flames shot out through the throttle body. It ran until the spray was used up in the intake manifold. > From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. >Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the >fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would >need a helper, or a remote starter . Died anyway. No dirt could have gotten in. I cleaned everything again prior to assembly >It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got >distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not >allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the >injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran >when you sprayed the cleaner. It would only run briefly when spraying the fluid, 5 to 10 seconds max I will be doing this test today also. >When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper >ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did >you use the spark tester? Cool tool. If the cat conv experiment doesn't work this morning then this looks like the next step. >You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the >cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus >determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving >because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or >excess fuel? http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm After reading the article you linked to and the symptoms the indications are certainly pointing to this, a plugged cat conv. I'm going to remove and the shop light test and if I can't light thru it that will give me a very good indication it is plugged and proceed to starting and see how long it runs and if it misses. If runs longer than 2 minutes and doesn't miss then the problem has been indentified. >Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible >inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It >does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and >see what happens. I had the annual emissions inspection just prior to the problems and all of the values were significantly greater than in previous years. In each case the values were 2 to 4 times higher than last year, but still well below the limit. These numbers are insignificant but they did show a big spike from previous years. I agree, at least what it is not is definitely a step in the right direction. >I think you are on the right track to solve your problem, almost there >imho. Good luck! [quoted text clipped - 310 lines] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim Some of these I answered in the earlier post. This one is moving up the priority list >When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when >the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as >bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead. 3 weeks old >How old is the fuel in the gas tank? I tried that until flames shot out through the throttle body. It ran until the spray was used up in the intake manifold. > From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. >Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the >fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would >need a helper, or a remote starter . Died anyway. No dirt could have gotten in. I cleaned everything again prior to assembly >It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got >distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not >allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the >injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran >when you sprayed the cleaner. It would only run briefly when spraying the fluid, 5 to 10 seconds max. I used the spark tester set at 5/16' and the spark was consistent (Blue at the tips) when running and when the car wouldn't start >When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper >ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did >you use the spark tester? >You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the >cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus >determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving >because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or >excess fuel? http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm Separated the cat conv and it ran worse. It doesn't appear to be the problem. Did the visual comparison with a new one from Autozone per the article you suggested and they were identical. >Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible >inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It >does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and >see what happens. Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves the injectors, what do you think? Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. 111 system pass 10 cylinder #1 problem 111 system pass >I think you are on the right track to solve your problem, almost there >imho. Good luck! [quoted text clipped - 310 lines] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim >Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >or fuel system. I'm beginning to believe the issue somehow is related to fuel, but will have to wait until I have an asisstant to do a better job with the starting fluid. But if the fuel pressure is good, 30psi, and I don't smell gas at the fuel pressure regulator vaccuum line what could could cause the starving for fuel symptom? >So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction >duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while >cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. Just stuck a automotive stethoscope on injector 1 and could here a steady click that varied according to the fluctuating RPMs. The reason I chose #1 is the KOEO error code, 10, for Cylinder #1. >The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. Pulled #6 plug and looked fine >Are the spark plugs fouled? Checked gap and OK. As an aside, if the gap was off wouldn't that affect the start-up first. >The gap properly adjusted? > [quoted text clipped - 172 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Thanks Jim >>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >>or fuel system. On the injectors I attached the NOID light. When I used the NOID light after the no start situation begins it was very bright occasionally (each first attempt only) and pulse (weakly compared to first flash) but not consistently. I would assume the light light would pulse/flash consistently while cranking. Unfortunately, I did not do this test with the running and will now have to wait a while to be able to start it. I don't know if this is significant, just thought I would mention it because when I did the spark test it was consistent. >Just stuck a automotive stethoscope on injector 1 and could here a >steady click that varied according to the fluctuating RPMs. The reason [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. I used the spark tester set at 5/16' and the spark was consistent (Blue at the tips) when running and when the car wouldn't start >When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper >ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did >you use the spark tester? Separated the cat conv and it ran worse. It doesn't appear to be the problem. Did the visual comparison with a new one from Autozone per the article you suggested and they were identical. >Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible >inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It >does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and >see what happens. Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves the injectors, what do you think? Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. 111 system pass 10 cylinder #1 problem 111 system pass > Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow > New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves > the injectors, what do you think? > Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and 30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't like it when pressure isn't up to snuff. dave Hi Dave That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the PCM is bad. When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was flooding it trying to restart it. If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of electrical and fuel. So heres what happened. 1) Test for spark and condition of spark 2) Test for fuel delivery. 3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly) 4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing the coughing and sputtering from the engine. 5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until missing began, then the light missed as well. ****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM. BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll see..... >> Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow >> New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >dave The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the camshaft position sensor. I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when you sprayed the starting fluid. Good luck, Alex > Hi Dave > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> >>dave >The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the >camshaft position sensor. Hi Alex I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I get 111 system pass 10 cylinder one 111 system pass thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111, 10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning. Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test. I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying. The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that? If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with test light and spark simultaneously. If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM. By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other circuits. >I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when >you sprayed the starting fluid. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>> >>>dave The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control. Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one at exhaust. Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem. I am glad the light is working for you. ;) Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft pos sensor or the PCM. >>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the >>camshaft position sensor. [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] >>>> >>>>dave Hi Alex New test results including engine running. I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity. Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious. The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns or loose connections and also found nothing. Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat. Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for 4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the car died. Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass. Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes 30 seconds, same as before. Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass. Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start. Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass. Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector activation. The CEL has not come on either. As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and soon) if nothing improves. I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I can find. Thanks Jim >The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into >compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] >>>>> >>>>>dave Hi Jim: For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have to do with the ignition. I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though not for the spark. I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything about testing the CMP itself. Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the voltage against ground when the car dies? Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on and off as required. Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine. Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to inject. Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took longer for the car to die. I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon. This forum is scary: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums//showthread.php?t=159930 Good luck! > Hi Alex > [quoted text clipped - 171 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>>dave Hi Alex: Found this on the internet: "Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code" Regarding the 211 code I was getting. >For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have >to do with the ignition. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything >about testing the CMP itself. As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be run without one? Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-( Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400 and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way. >Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the >voltage against ground when the car dies? I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the source, should I do these test on each injector? >Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the >injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on >and off as required. That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me? >Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make >the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine. > >Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals >from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to >inject. CKP has been replaced, but not CMP. >Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took >longer for the car to die. Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to affect that..... >I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon. > [quoted text clipped - 178 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>dave Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors: They are 12 volt solenoid valves, when the ignition switch is on, +12v is always applied and the ground is switched on and off by the PCM to inject the fuel as needed. So, to identify the +, disconnect one of the injectors, turn the ignition switch on and with a voltmeter or the lamp, find out which terminal shows 12v (or makes the test light glow brighter) with respect to ground. Once identified, you need to make sure that the 12 volts is is there at all times when the vehicle is running or cranking. If this voltage disappears you may have a defective relay or ignition voltage (think switch). Measuring just one injector should suffice. The negative (ground side) is controlled by the PCM. That means, that the PCM grounds need to be clean and tight. Make sure that you have unplugged and plugged the PCM connector(s) as to guarantee good electrical contact there. For the PCM to control the injectors, it needs signals from the CKP, CMP. The PCM will use other signals like the MAF, Barometric Pressure, coolant temp sensor, TPS etc etc to determing the length of the pulses. Given the difficulty in replacing the CMP, lets wait until you can be sure it is the culprit. As far as testing the CMP, not being sure about which engine you have, (VIN X california?), i will refer you to http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0d/3a/43/0900823d800d3a43/repai rInfoPages.htm Just out of curiosity, did you replace the oxygen sensor(s). They are very susceptible to antifreeze. What happens if you disconnect them? You can test them as per procedure outlined here: http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0e/2f/99/0900823d800e2f99/repai rInfoPages.htm Good luck! > Hi Alex: > [quoted text clipped - 251 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>dave Hi Alex Here's the latest: Used the backprobe at the connector base of the PCM. Just tested the CMP circuit using this and the Mitchell specification 6.8VDC at idle and the rest below from the Autozone site: 1. With the ignition OFF, disconnect the CMP sensor. With the ignition ON and the engine OFF, measure the voltage between sensor harness connector VPWR and PWR GND terminals (refer to the accompanying illustration). If the reading is greater than 10.5 volts, the power circuit to the sensor is okay. 2. With the ignition OFF, install break-out box between the CMP sensor and the PCM. Using a Digital Volt-Ohmmeter (DVOM) set to the voltage function (scale set to monitor less than 5 volts), measure voltage between break-out box terminals 24 and 40 with the engine running at varying RPM. If the voltage reading varies more than 0.1 volt, the sensor is okay. Fig. 3: CMP sensor wire harness connections for the 3-wire sensor VPWR - Black/White PWR GND - Red CID / CMP - Dark Blue/Orange Both tests 1 and 2 came back OK. So now I'm back to why does it run for a short period of time and then the injectors loose their signal but I still have spark. Can start it twice OK, but the third time No Go. Just intermittent signal to the injectors. Also hooked up the DVOM to the injector and voltage was present even when the engine died (so not the ignition switch?). The CKP is also fine, does that leave the PCM? I did not replace the Oxygen sensors. Jim >Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors: > [quoted text clipped - 288 lines] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>dave I am glad the CMP was not defective (the cost thing). At this point the PCM seems to be the one telling the injectors to stop working, either by being defective or by getting signals that tell it to do so. I would check the power and grounds for it. Most likely you will need to replace the oxygen sensors, antrifreeze poisoning of O2 sensors is almost a given in your case. The antifreeze residues will cover the O2 sensor, not allowing the O2 in the exhaust to reach the sensor. I think that if this is the case, they could be telling the PCM that the engine is too rich, forcing the PCM to lean out the mixture. O2 sensors begin to work after they reach operating temp and this takes a couple of minutes. Disconnecting them should force the PCM to operate in open loop and should allow you to see if the engine runs longer. It is worth a try. Almost at the bottom of the linked page, there is a very nice description and test procedure for O2 sensors: http://yarchive.net/car/oxygen_sensor.html In a 98 explorer I have been able to disconnect one by one the MAF, TPS, Baro Pressure, Intake air temp sensor and the engine keeps running. Good luck Jim, you are (should be) almost there. > Hi Alex > [quoted text clipped - 325 lines] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>dave Hi Alex; Just tried quick start/off cycling. I was able to get 12 cycles and ran KOEO at the end and the 211 code reappeared. The first 6 or 8 starts I didn't have to touch the accelerator, each start after that a light touch was required to start. I checked the TPS for dynamic response with a DVOM and received the voltage variation expected from RPM change. Apparently the problem is when something is getting warm/hot because I went from 2 starts and letting run until it died to 12 quick starts/off. Also tested continuity/ground of PCM and everything OK included voltage test of each ground and all came back well under one volt (per spec). The 211 code requires at least 2 starts/runs before it's generated. So the multiple start/stop cycles may have necessary for it to return. >I am glad the CMP was not defective (the cost thing). > >At this point the PCM seems to be the one telling the injectors to stop >working, either by being defective or by getting signals that tell it to >do so. I would check the power and grounds for it. found this .... where a truck would run for a while and then die. He eventually took apart the ECM and replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECM which fixed his problem. It is possible that the problem is related to a leaky electrolytic cap that will charge properly when first powered up, and then lose it's ability to store charge as it heats up. Metal can electros have an expected service life of 5 years, and anything past that is a gimme. I'm not saying that this IS the problem, but it is definately something to suspect, but unfortunately if you are not "into" electronics the only way to test for this would be to replace the engine control module. >Most likely you will need to replace the oxygen sensors, antrifreeze >poisoning of O2 sensors is almost a given in your case. The antifreeze [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >PCM to operate in open loop and should allow you to see if the engine >runs longer. It is worth a try. Wouldn't leaning or enriching the mixture be a matter of pulse duration? I will try this, disconnection, but I might try the testing procedures in the link you furnished first. >Almost at the bottom of the linked page, there is a very nice >description and test procedure for O2 sensors: [quoted text clipped - 334 lines] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>dave Did you align the CMP properly? This could cause the code and all the problems. Yes, leaning or enriching the mixture is a function of the pulse length, and normally, this should not cause the engine to stall, but we are not dealing with a normal situation. Unplugging the O2 sensor is easy enough. > Hi Alex; > [quoted text clipped - 384 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>dave Hi Alex I think the problem has been found ..... using a hair dryer... Stuck a hair dryer on the PCM, started the car took it to 1800 RPMs (simulates 55mph). It ran for 18 minutes. After holding the hair dryer for 10 minutes it become too hot to hold so I shut it off. Sprayed some compressed air to cool the PCM, but it was very very warm. Ran it at the 1800 RPMs for another couple of minutes then let return to idle and it ran for another six minutes very smooth. Then missed a couple of times and died. Touched the PCM and it had cooled considerably, well at least I could touch it. Next Tried to start it, wouldn't start. Heated the PCM and it started, ran for 15 minutes varying the RPMs and smooth as kitten. I kept heating it up with the hair dryer every few minutes. Shut it off. Started it up again without touching the accelerator. Just inspected the board, nothing comes back as obvious and I used a big magnifying lens. No cracks, loose connection or such that I can see. This is a problem that got progressively worse starting a couple of months ago. More like something going bad than something loose. Don't capacitors behave that way? A little $2 item if I knew which one and if that is indeed the problem. Oh, I forgot, tested the oxygen sensors and they were OK. The reason for the hair dryer was to induce a failure quickly and just the opposite happened. Net result was the same. Jim >Did you align the CMP properly? This could cause the code and all the >problems. [quoted text clipped - 392 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>dave Congrats!! Yes Capacitors can behave this way, I call them the plague of the electronic devices. I have a small box with all the ones I have replaced over the years. The Electrolytics have a rather short life span if used at the max ratings. Designers can improve their life by choosing capacitors with higher than required ratings, but i guess cost kills the good will. When electrolytics fail they normally bulge or leak mainly by the leads rusting the lead and sometimes the pcb (printed circuit board). Some other times, they do not show signs at all. Because the PCM failed when cold, i would rather think that the problem is a cold solder, either at the point where the plug terminals are soldered to the pcb or at any of the bigger components, resistors, power transistors, etc. When looking for cold solders I use a magnifier at least 10x, but prefer to use a stereo microscope that gives me 20 or 40x. Keep in mind that the problem could be one of the components being defective itself vs a cold solder. In diagnosing this kind of problems, technicians use a source of hot air or cold spray that can directed toward individual components. The local junker sells the PCMs for about $30. If you do not have it already, a Craftsman tester with capacitance measurement goes for about 20-30 bucks. You will need to take the capacitors off the board to test them and this can be a pain, particularly with poor quality boards in which the copper tracks become detached from the pcb when heat is applied. A good desoldering tool is worthwhile if you plan on doing this yourself. How long have you had this problem? Good luck! > Hi Alex > [quoted text clipped - 430 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>dave Hi Alex Thanks for all your help. This problem actually goes back further than I initially thought. The reason I say that is about 6 months ago I would get a miss at idle and not at any particular interval. Then about a month and half ago I had an episode of severe missing and then no problem the next day. Maybe a week later another episode. The frequency began to increase and the stalling started. Then finally I didn't trust it at all and decided to rebuild the upper engine because I knew I was leaking antifreeze into the cylinders. So today when the heat test worked and I had no missing at all, which tells me the problem crept up quite a while ago. I've taken the PCM apart and looking at solder connections and components. Nothing looks like what you're describing. I'm using a Photographers Loupe 8X for inspection. Getting apart to look at the pins connections may damage it because of the way its assembled. 30 bucks huh? Mine has a part number F47F 12A650 DBA. I guess the DBA part means California/New York emissions and auto trans. Being in Tucson AZ I should be able to find a match, this close to CA and all. If I did find one I might be willing to troubleshoot this one to satisfy my curiosity as to the cause of the failure. What tests could I run, cold I assume, to see if a cold solder connection is the culprit. Jim >Congrats!! > [quoted text clipped - 467 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dave Hi Jim: You are welcome, I am so glad you found your problem. You should be able to see a cold solder with the magnifying glass, you will see the lil crack, around or under the component leads. Usually the larger components carry bigger electric loads and those are the ones that normally get cold solders or solder fatigue (repeated heating and cooling cycles). For now I think it is worthwhile checking with your local junkers. This next weekend I may go with a friend to the one around here and even though I doubt that i will find a California vehicle, I will check the PCMs. Good luck! Alex > Hi Alex > [quoted text clipped - 500 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dave Thanks Alex Local guys here not much help. I'm still going to try and isolate the problem. Jim >Hi Jim: > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >>> >>>Good luck! Some reference material: http://www.aa1car.com/library/car_wont_start.htm > Hi Alex: > [quoted text clipped - 251 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>dave http://www.walkerproducts.com/common_o2_problems.html > Hi Alex: > [quoted text clipped - 251 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>dave |
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