Car Forum / Ford / Ford Falcon / December 2003
Make 351c more economical?
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Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 00:56 GMT As our Fed Govt is going to jack the price of LPG to near petrol parity, it will have a dramatic effect on those who want to run an old tech V8.
The Clevos are gas-guzzlers and mine, around town gets only 8mpg on LPG, it would be about 10 or so on petrol.
Has anyone managed to make these engines more economical? The 4bbl is virtually a 2bbl unless you floor it so carby size seems to be irelevant. The exhaust ports are not the greatest on the 2V, they dog-leg on the way out. Is this the sort of thing which makes these engines so thirsty?
Jason
atec77 - 16 Dec 2003 01:15 GMT its suggested and possibly will happen but wont be until after the election , as for economy you need injection , windsor injection and a 3d will do the trick , manifold needs drilling and some tuning of the computer ( and a suitable injection pump) Ive just sold one which was making about 300 horses and returned mid teens on unleaded , had a mild cam some head work , valve inserts and a balance job , cam was mostly lift and short on duration so didn't rev much over 5500 >6000 but pulled well injection was off a smashed late model v8 rails and stuff cost me to much but a fraction of the factory price
> As our Fed Govt is going to jack the price of LPG to near petrol parity, it > will have a dramatic effect on those who want to run an old tech V8. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jason Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 18:51 GMT > its suggested and possibly will happen but wont be until after the > election , [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > injection was off a smashed late model v8 rails and stuff cost me to > much but a fraction of the factory price Does throttle body injection come anywhere near port? You mentioned '3d',..what is that?
The short duration cam makes sense in a torquey donk. Thanx for the info
Jason
atec77 - 17 Dec 2003 01:39 GMT its a wolf 3d computer , I had the inlet manifold drilled to accept the injectors as specified on a web page I found a while ago , page belongs to a bloke in WA , google should find it .
> > its suggested and possibly will happen but wont be until after the > > election , [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Jason Dan--- - 16 Dec 2003 01:48 GMT > Has anyone managed to make these engines more economical? The 4bbl is > virtually a 2bbl unless you floor it so carby size seems to be irelevant. > The exhaust ports are not the greatest on the 2V, they dog-leg on the way > out. Is this the sort of thing which makes these engines so thirsty? Swap it for a EB-AU 302 windsor and 4 speed auto gearbox.
-- Regards Dan.
Bill - 16 Dec 2003 04:21 GMT in comparison, he may aswell buy a Honda crv.
> > Has anyone managed to make these engines more economical? The 4bbl is > > virtually a 2bbl unless you floor it so carby size seems to be irelevant. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards > Dan. Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 18:55 GMT > > Has anyone managed to make these engines more economical? The 4bbl is > > virtually a 2bbl unless you floor it so carby size seems to be irelevant. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards > Dan. Yeah,..trouble is it's a reco with less than 10,000ks on it. I could sell it to someone needing a motor for a combine-harvester.
Jason
John McKenzie - 16 Dec 2003 02:57 GMT > The exhaust ports are not the greatest on the 2V, they dog-leg on the way > out. Is this the sort of thing which makes these engines so thirsty? Not really but you are on teh right track. The problems (predominantly even on the 2vs, but more so on the 4vs) is that the inlet ports whilst reasonably good flow wise, have poor velocity, and have some notable 'dead' areas along the port floor which don't do much for mixture suspension and efficiency. This is then magnified by the fact that the (open chamber at least) isn't the most efficient chamber shape out there and they don't promote complete combustion. So basically they aren't making the most out of the air/fuel they manage to ingest.
It was actually the reason they were discontinued much earlier in the US - with tighter (earlier) emissions laws, this incomplete burn made them difficult to meet the requirements.
If you _really_ want to make some noticeable difference, aside from having the carb and ignition in good working order, you'd seriously need to look into filling in some of the inlet port floors. It'll not lose much (often not any) flow, but it will pick up a lot more velocity - hence more uniform and complete mixture atomisation and hence the best most complete burn (and the ability to consistently 'light' a leaner part throttle mixture)
 Signature John McKenzie
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atec77 - 16 Dec 2003 12:39 GMT I forgot to mention we welded the bottom of the ports in a couple of spots and closed them down a little on the clevo I just sold . 2v heads to
> > The exhaust ports are not the greatest on the 2V, they dog-leg on the way > > out. Is this the sort of thing which makes these engines so thirsty? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > abuse@iprimus.com.au abuse@cia.gov abuse@fbi.gov abuse@asio.gov.au > abuse@federalpolice.gov.au Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 19:02 GMT > > The exhaust ports are not the greatest on the 2V, they dog-leg on the way > > out. Is this the sort of thing which makes these engines so thirsty? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > John McKenzie Great info John,...this port modification I've seen before I think. The yanks call it 'port-stuffing' where they fill in the ultra large 4V inlets. Mines a 2V. Perhaps it would benifit from a tunnel-ram to speed up the intake
I suspect it will take a lot of minor adjustments which will add up to a (hopefully) significant change in low-end economy.
Jason
Adam - 18 Dec 2003 14:00 GMT Perhaps it would benifit from a tunnel-ram to speed up the
> intake Although I'm not speaking from experience, I think you will find a tunnel ram will just make the car a pig down low. You can get plenty of velocity out of a tunnel ram, its unfortunately high in the rev range though. I've been told by a few ppl with experience that a good flowing dual plane manifold will outperform a tunnel ram under 4000rpm anyday. I'd look into it a bit more before going down that path..
Adam
> I suspect it will take a lot of minor adjustments which will add up to a > (hopefully) significant change in low-end economy. > > Jason Jason James - 18 Dec 2003 16:52 GMT > Perhaps it would benifit from a tunnel-ram to speed up the > > intake [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Adam I;ve heard this too. It makes me wonder though, as long runners are a feature of MPFI these days.
Jason
John McKenzie - 19 Dec 2003 07:59 GMT > I;ve heard this too. It makes me wonder though, as long runners are a > feature of MPFI these days. there's a simple enough explanation. EFi stuff - the inlet manifold is dry flow. There's no fuel to drop out of the inlet flow or condense on the runner walls, or puddle in low spots. Injector placement on efi production cars is relatively close to the head, and therefore the inlet valve. It's like this not for power, but for the lowest emissions at part throttle, low-mid rpm operating. For absolute best power (and it is utilised on stuff like formula 1 partially, and on aus supercars) as more remote injector placement = more power. I'm told that supercar injectors are placed as far out as at or above the bellmouth of the intake trumpet.
Even with efi, injector location too remote from the inlet valve, and the port will still result in some level of fuel dropout at lower rpms.
WIth a long runner inlet, you can get high velocity at lower rpms. You can also tailor the length so that you get sonic tuning effect down low. The difference is (with some carbed hypothetical setup with similar runner cross section area and length etc) that the fuel isn't introduced until near the inlet valve, and may even be aimed at the valve back 'face'. This would be the point of maximum shock and turbulence and would theoretically affect the best mixture distribution/dispersion and suspension. so for all intents and purposes, the inlet tract can be considerably lengthy for better low rpm volumetric efficiency. But in this scenario the boost to volumetric efficiency and cylinder filling is no longer overpowered by the losses resulting from poor mixture suspension, distribution and suspension.
You could achieve _some percentage_ of the results with carbs (esp side draught webers - hypothetically on an inline 6) by having the carbs not too far from the head - a modest inlet manifold runner length, but then adding custom 'trumpets' to the carb mouth that effectively extend the runner much further. Then you'd get a lot of the effects without suffering fuel dropout etc.
Having said all that - you could theoretically get excellent part throttle economy and low-mid rpm output using a tunnel ram. Most of the ready made ones would be designed for higher rpm use however. What would be called for is either a custom made one - tig welded together (which wouldn't be cheap, but is an option) specifically configured to suit, or you'd need to modify an existing one.
The (massively abbreviated) short list would include :
Filling of the port floor etc in the head.
filling the tunnel ram runners so that they too have a reduced cross section (and to make sure there's no 'step' at the head face due to the port floor in the head being higher than the tunnel ram runner it mates to.
a total 're-think' of the plenum section that sits on the top of the tunnel ram runners (usually bolted - a removable top section) to firstly make sure that the front and rear plenums are separate (generally not the 100% best option for these goals, but due to idiosynchrasies of teh trams I've come across, of more benefit due to the overall considerable reduction in total plenum volume = a better signal strength at lower rpm)
In general you'd want to further minimise plenum volume if possible - by filling in any ballooned out areas above the runners. Blending it to make a smooth and most direct transition from plenum to each runner.
You'd want the smallest pair of carbs (or mixers) consistent with still meeting peak power requirements (of your choosing). THe smaller the better - potentially higher velocity. more velocity through carb or mixer = best chance of finitely setting the best part throttle a/f ratio. -- more on the heads specifically. similar to the intakes, the exhaust ports have a huge dead area on teh floor (and it fans outward as you move further along the port, so the dead area grows. This creates poor exhaust flow, encourages reversion, and thereby can pollute the intake charge for the next power cycle. BY building up the port floor (different methods mandated - tongues made from iron or something and attached via bolts or cap screws through holes drilled in the port wall (I have a web link with details and pics as to what was done to pro-stock cleveland heads a couple of decades ago). This ups exhaust velocity, actually improves exh flow, drasticaly reduces reversion and contamination of the incoming charge. All add up to greatly reduced emissions, but also it drastically reduces the intake contamination - bottom line - for the same amount of ingested air/fuel - it will experience a much better quality burn (more complete, and quicker - so the maximum amount of 'push' is delivered to the piston while it's still high enough in the bore that the expanding gases can push hard. Once it travels too far down, the same gas at the same temp will have a lot less pressure (due to exponentially greater volume. SO getting the majority of the burn at a more opportune time will produce more power - even if the amount of total heat energy created is identical.
 Signature John McKenzie
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Jason James - 19 Dec 2003 20:24 GMT [. . .]
> -- > more on the heads specifically. similar to the intakes, the exhaust > ports have a huge dead area on teh floor (and it fans outward as you > move further along the port, so the dead area grows. This creates poor > exhaust flow, encourages reversion, and thereby can pollute the intake > charge for the next power cycle. This pollution at low revs (and V8s around town are operating below 2000 mostly) actually causes a lean situation? Thus the fuel already large in volume is wasted?
BY building up the port floor
> (different methods mandated - tongues made from iron or something and > attached via bolts or cap screws through holes drilled in the port wall [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of the burn at a more opportune time will produce more power - even if > the amount of total heat energy created is identical. Was the 2V an attempt to gain better port performance? The car runs non-tuned 3Ys. Are these assisting? Or there for show?
Thanx for the info John.
Jason
> -- > John McKenzie [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > abuse@iprimus.com.au abuse@cia.gov abuse@fbi.gov abuse@asio.gov.au > abuse@federalpolice.gov.au John McKenzie - 19 Dec 2003 22:17 GMT > [. . .] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This pollution at low revs (and V8s around town are operating below 2000 > mostly) actually causes a lean situation? It's kinda that scenario. Another way to look at it is this. If the exhaust is 'bouncing' back into the chamber, then the motor has to push it out a second time, and that would require a little extra pumping losses. The other thing is that exhaust gas contamination of the incoming charge, whilst it may reduce emissions (hence the concept of the EGR valve) it also increases the brake specific fuel consumption (at least potentially). Modern EFi engines operate around stoic fro lowest emissions. Significantly better economy can be extracted by running much leaner a/f ratios. But they won't pass epa requirements. In a car the vintage of yours, relatively speaking, you can get away with murder.
ignition timing is a similar scenario. lots of part throttle vacuum advance (or the equivalent as effected by engine management on new cars) is (to a point) good for economy, but raises NOx emissions quite a bit. modern efi cars have to trade off potential economy from more optimal advance to reduce emissions. The thing is - they generally still match or better the economy of older cars.
The reason they do is due to better mixture distribution and atomisation at low-mid rpm and flow conditions. Basically the 'gains' outweigh the concessions that have to be made for emissions compliance. In an older car (or if you want to risk a c.nt of a fine from the EPA with a new car) you don't have to make those concessions, so with well thought out 'whole combination' upgrades etc you can have the benefits of better burn quality, and leaner (if required) a/f ratios, optimal advance etc - and basically have your cake and eat it too. ]
Thus the fuel already large in
> volume is wasted? It's also big time to do with mixture homogenity. If some parts of the intake charge have heavy droplets of fuel, poorly atomised, and others have lean pockets, the burn is guaranteed to be less than optimal - slow, inconsistent and likely as not - incomplete.
> Was the 2V an attempt to gain better port performance? As in the design criteria from Henry II? no f.cking idea. At a guess, it was to enable the cleveland to be fitted to a wide variety of vehicles from trucks to family cars to hi-po musclecars.
> The car runs > non-tuned 3Ys. Are these assisting? Or there for show? They probably aren't hurting. I'd be surprised if they didn't offer some improvement to power and economy (due to reduced pumping losses) over cast exhaust manifolds.
If you are bored, rip off the headers. Make sure that the header flanges don't overlap the port at all. In fact, there should be a 1-2mm (or more if possible) step - as you go from the port to the bigger i.d header flange. If it doesn't have that, and it's possible to open the flange without opening a hole in the header pipe (if the welds are on the outside you'd be pretty safe but if in doubt take a digital pic, or ask someone who's done it). The worlds best headers are close to useless if they overshadow the port opening. They must have a larger opening than the port exit.
 Signature John McKenzie
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Kieron - 17 Dec 2003 01:32 GMT >If you _really_ want to make some noticeable difference, aside from >having the carb and ignition in good working order, you'd seriously need [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >most complete burn (and the ability to consistently 'light' a leaner >part throttle mixture) There used to be port tongues available in the US to do this, although it may have been for the exhaust. Might be worth looking into though.
John McKenzie - 19 Dec 2003 08:04 GMT > >If you _really_ want to make some noticeable difference, aside from > >having the carb and ignition in good working order, you'd seriously need [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > There used to be port tongues available in the US to do this, although > it may have been for the exhaust. Might be worth looking into though. Last time I looked there's both (and some for certain ford big blocks, though I am not familiar enough with them to know which). The inlets were a solid lump, whereas the exhausts were actually a flat sheet of some sort of metal - part of the exhaust manifold gasket - the tongues were bent inward so that they just touched the port floor at their innermost reaching tip, and then created a pseudo port floor right back to the manifold face. The area below the exhaust tongue and above the port floor was actually hollow - unfilled. I can't recall but I think it was done that way to get around a particular racing category class regulation which prohibited any port filling. Technically it wasn't since it wasn't the head being filled in, it was just the exhaust gasket, and came off if the exhaust and gasket were removed...
 Signature John McKenzie
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Graham - 16 Dec 2003 14:42 GMT > As our Fed Govt is going to jack the price of LPG to near petrol parity, it > will have a dramatic effect on those who want to run an old tech V8. Excise is going to be introduced progressivly from 2008 (5 years away) with full excise of 12.5c/l by 2012 (9 years off).
Gas is between 30c/l and 43c/l in Melbourne at the moment. It's been as high as 55c/l last summer.
I don't think that 12.5c/l in 9 years time is enough to be worrying about modifying a carby V8 today. After all, by 2012, your carby V8 VL will be 24 to 26 years old, and a carby V8 XE will be almost 30 years old.
Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 19:05 GMT > > As our Fed Govt is going to jack the price of LPG to near petrol parity, it > > will have a dramatic effect on those who want to run an old tech V8. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > will be 24 to 26 years old, and a carby V8 XE will be almost 30 years > old. I know, it's a long time in politics and even longer with a Tank LTD with a new motor :^)
When the thing gets to 30 years, I could call it a 'vintage car' for rego I suppose!
Jason
Graham - 17 Dec 2003 02:00 GMT > > I don't think that 12.5c/l in 9 years time is enough to be worrying > > about modifying a carby V8 today. After all, by 2012, your carby V8 VL > > will be 24 to 26 years old, and a carby V8 XE will be almost 30 years > > old.
> I know, it's a long time in politics and even longer with a Tank LTD with a > new motor :^) > > When the thing gets to 30 years, I could call it a 'vintage car' for rego I > suppose! 25 years for "red plates" in Victoria...
Brenden Will - 18 Dec 2003 00:19 GMT Red plates aint vintage are they?? As I work for the state Gov't and all our cars have red plates (red on white).
What do the vintage plates look like?? My XB's 29 in 2004.
Brenden
> > > I don't think that 12.5c/l in 9 years time is enough to be worrying > > > about modifying a carby V8 today. After all, by 2012, your carby V8 VL [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 25 years for "red plates" in Victoria... Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 19:14 GMT So to recap, the things which will improve economy are:
1. Fix the ignition so it is matched to the fuel used,...preferably unleaded (the heads are already inserted for gas)
2. MPI or (throttle body?) with accurate computer-control.
3. Fit a shorter duration cam for 'economy' ( I dont like increased lift cams without $$$ spent on the valve train)
4. Reduce the port-size (port-filling or stuffing). and match it to a hi-riser, or just get a hi-riser.
5. It runs 2V heads which are 'open chamber',...a 4V would be better, (closed chamber) except for the increased port size,.......so a 2V would be the better compromise as 4V heads are getting hard to find.
Thanx for the comments
Jason
Scribble - 17 Dec 2003 01:13 GMT > So to recap, the things which will improve economy are: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (closed chamber) except for the increased port size,.......so a 2V would be > the better compromise as 4V heads are getting hard to find. from my research when I had mine, if you are going lpg don't use dual fuel, go lpg only and use 4V heads and a single plane BIG runner manifold. The 4V and single plane problems on petrol turn into an advantage on gas. Getting the dissy set up for gas is pretty important too.
cheers Steve
Adam - 18 Dec 2003 14:02 GMT > from my research when I had mine, if you are going lpg don't use dual fuel, > go lpg only and use 4V heads and a single plane BIG runner manifold. The 4V > and single plane problems on petrol turn into an advantage on gas. > Getting the dissy set up for gas is pretty important too. Agreed
> cheers > Steve Kieron - 17 Dec 2003 01:35 GMT >4. Reduce the port-size (port-filling or stuffing). and match it to a >hi-riser, or just get a hi-riser. heres a link for the port tongues I mentioned -
http://www.madhatterracing.com/shop/store/commerce.cgi?product=MIManifoldsCarb
Scribble - 17 Dec 2003 01:56 GMT > >4. Reduce the port-size (port-filling or stuffing). and match it to a > >hi-riser, or just get a hi-riser. > > heres a link for the port tongues I mentioned - http://www.madhatterracing.com/shop/store/commerce.cgi?product=MIManifoldsCa rb think Street Machine mag did a feature on similar tongues five or six (maybe more?) issues ago, thought they might be made in Oz as well?
cheers Steve
John McKenzie - 19 Dec 2003 08:29 GMT > rb > think Street Machine mag did a feature on similar tongues five or six (maybe > more?) issues ago, thought they might be made in Oz as well? Don't hold me to it - but I have a vague recollection that maybe a company advertising holley inlet manifolds for speedway holden 6s (damn good ones too) - I think the name was ultraflow manifolds - might also have mentioned the cleveland insert tongues - but might be getting confused.
 Signature John McKenzie
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Brenden Will - 16 Dec 2003 22:13 GMT Add more power, so the engine uns more efficent and you need to sure less pedal to get it moving. A 350-400hp build I'd suggest.
I got better economy with 450hp than I did with the stock 220hp.
A dyno tune wouldn't hurt either.
Brenden
> As our Fed Govt is going to jack the price of LPG to near petrol parity, it > will have a dramatic effect on those who want to run an old tech V8. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jason Jason James - 16 Dec 2003 22:40 GMT > Add more power, so the engine uns more efficent and you need to sure less > pedal to get it moving. A 350-400hp build I'd suggest. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Brenden That's true: more power equals greater efficiency. Except in cases where the cam is wild and you can ignite the exhaust gases!
Jason
Harry - 18 Dec 2003 11:04 GMT I agree. Get the engine to produce more power, and then you don't need as much right foot. However to get more power costs money, so that's not economical.
If you want to keep the vehicle for a long time, then maybe the a short term loss for a long term gain is required. However a short term loss is probably about $4,000.
I'd be looking at a decent tune up first. Those figures are not very good. My XE 351 gets around 15mpg around town and 20 h/way (petrol).
I know dual fuel is a compromise, but that's a big difference. There's an electronic kit which enables two different advance curves - one for lpg, the other for petrol. Probably available from Dick Smith or Jaycar. Maybe that's a cheaper solution.
While on the subject of dual fuel, I heard that the 12-16 degrees advance for lpg is not all that good for an engine. Apparently it "silently" causes damage. 8 degrees is better. Anyone heard this?
-- Harry
> Add more power, so the engine uns more efficent and you need to sure less > pedal to get it moving. A 350-400hp build I'd suggest. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > Jason D Walford - 18 Dec 2003 16:27 GMT > While on the subject of dual fuel, I heard that the 12-16 degrees advance > for lpg is not all that good for an engine. > Apparently it "silently" causes damage. 8 degrees is better. Anyone heard > this? > > -- I ran my XD 6 cyl at 15deg (stock timing is 6deg) for over 300,000klms without a problem, can't see why a V8 would be any different.
Daryl
Jason James - 18 Dec 2003 16:51 GMT > > While on the subject of dual fuel, I heard that the 12-16 degrees advance > > for lpg is not all that good for an engine. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Daryl Iran the old V8 motor before this one at 15 deg with 32 tops. It failed from a burnt valve at 20,000 ks. It was pretty well rooted before it was converted to gas: tons of blow-by.
Jason
John McKenzie - 19 Dec 2003 08:35 GMT > Iran the old V8 motor before this one at 15 deg with 32 tops. It failed from > a burnt valve at 20,000 ks. At the risk of way oversimplifying - burnt out valves can be caused by poor combustion. If you get the burn quick and complete, then there's far more power developed from the same amt of air/fuel.
IF the chamber etc produces a poor burn, and an incomplete one, then the tail end of the mixture will still be smouldering/burning as it travels out the exhaust port. The exhaust valve cools when it's on the seat.
Modern chamber design biases as much mixture toward the exhaust valve area on the compression stroke. then the burn will initiate there etc. It may sound counter productive - as it's mroe heat at that spot. BUt it ends up producing a more complete and relatively quicker burn - so that by the time the exhaust valve opens, there's less buring still occuring, it's done, and hence it actually heats the exhaust valve a lot less.
Just thought I'd throw that in there since some might wonder why if high exhaust valve temps lead to accelerated valve/seat recession, it would ever be advantageous to deliberately 'concentrate' the mixture in that location just prior to spark initiating the burn.
 Signature John McKenzie
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Jason James - 19 Dec 2003 20:35 GMT > > Iran the old V8 motor before this one at 15 deg with 32 tops. It failed from > > a burnt valve at 20,000 ks. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -- > John McKenzie Understand that. It sounds as tho the stock clevo open-chamber heads are a good way to dispose of fuel with little else benifit.
One thing I always wondered about was why a Val 265/245 got the same economy as a 179/186 HD I also had, had. Is the reason tied up in the same design outcomes due to 'suck and see' design techniques of the day? (or in other words, cast something, then see if it works)
Jason
John McKenzie - 19 Dec 2003 22:29 GMT > > > Iran the old V8 motor before this one at 15 deg with 32 tops. It failed > from [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > as a 179/186 HD I also had, had. Is the reason tied up in the same design > outcomes due to 'suck and see' design techniques of the day? I'm not loved in mopar circles for saying it... but.. the 265 hemi head has just about the worlds worst fucken chamber shape. They have trouble steering clear of pre-ignition (and if prolonged the onset of detonation) with 10:1 comp on optimax.
The reason they are capable of (even by 2003 standards) quite decent power is not the hemi chamber (and it's technically not a hemi - it's a polyspherical chamber - like the 318 poly V8 ) but the ports. They are big, they are relatively smooth and still are capable of decent enough velocity. The std rockers have a 1.7:1 ratio - 1.5 is the norm for 9 out of 10 other 6s and most small blocks (cleveland is 1.65 or 1.7 I think just to play devils advocate)
The reason they managed decent economy (better than a 253 for example - at least potentially - I don't know the 'quoted' figures of the time, but I do know the potential of both through enough work on my own and friends hemis/holdens ) is down to probably 3 main factors.
From VJ onward they had electronic ignition. It wasn't space age technology, but it did the job. In any car it's 'bankable' on being able to improve economy - however slightly. basically a bigger spark means the burn is initiated more enthusiastically (yada yada the complete and quality burn rhetoric)
The later ones in particular with the emissions version of the carter bbd (the best of the factory non pacer/RT carbs) which had metering rods that developed 17:1 or so a/f ratios at part throttle. The earlier bbd's weren't bad either
the vast majority of hemi powered vals were fitted with a 2.92:1 diff. In contrast most holdens would have a 3.36, or maybe 3.55 (some 2.78 and 3.08 on toranas - but they had smaller wheels don't forget)
 Signature John McKenzie
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