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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Falcon / July 2004

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Head Gasket woes

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Matt - 25 Jun 2004 01:54 GMT
Gotta love them Falcon head gaskets (I know Noddy, poor maintenance not
design fault :-)).

It seems my ED (6cyl auto, dual fuel) has blown a head gasket. I noticed
it was losing coolant at a rate of about 1l/week a few weeks ago, but
couldn't see any other obvious signs of coolant loss (leaks, drips,
stains on the block, etc).

I re-checked it today after I got home and noticed green coolant
dripping down the passenger side of the block, near the front of the
engine - no idea why it wasn't there last time I checked.

So, I assume I have blown a head gasket?

There is no visible oil in the water, the oil appears ok (except for a
slight aeration, lots of tiny bubbles in the oil on the dipstick when I
checked - not sure if this is related or not), the car's temperature is
hasn't changed, and it's not running rough. The only noticable effects
are the 1l/week of coolant loss and the coolant on the side of the block.

I'm cash strapped at the moment, so I'm wondering if I will cause any
more damage by ignoring the problem for a while?

If ignoring it is a Very Bad Idea (TM), what about using one of those
coolant-sealant type products? I really only need this car to last
another 6 months without being too expensive, I can afford to fix it
properly at the start of next year.

Cheers,
Matt
The Raven - 25 Jun 2004 07:42 GMT
What side of the block mate, if it is the drivers side, you may have a crack
in your water pipe that goes from the front of the block to the rear. i
would check that first. If there is no water in your oil, and it is still a
natural oil colour, there has been no breech with in the oil circuit. That
pipe runs from the front of the engine and is made of metal, check that for
a proper seal and that there is no cracks or holes  then worry about that no
fancy oil additive will stop damage only delay it

Peter
> Gotta love them Falcon head gaskets (I know Noddy, poor maintenance not
> design fault :-)).
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Cheers,
> Matt
Matt - 25 Jun 2004 10:38 GMT
> What side of the block mate, if it is the drivers side, you may have a crack
> in your water pipe that goes from the front of the block to the rear. i
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a proper seal and that there is no cracks or holes  then worry about that no
> fancy oil additive will stop damage only delay it

The only side I can see leakage from is the passenger side of the block,
towards the front of the engine (front of the car).

Is the slight aeration of the oil a sign of a related air leak, or just
because I checked the oil not long after stopping the engine?

I'll double check all the pipes and hoses again tomorrow anyway.

Cheers,
Matt
Jason James - 25 Jun 2004 19:09 GMT
> > What side of the block mate, if it is the drivers side, you may have a crack
> > in your water pipe that goes from the front of the block to the rear. i
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Cheers,
> Matt

Hate to say it, but you're twisting the tail of the Lion (or something
equally chancy) if you try to drive it even short distances/ daily after
that which you have said.

Get a loan and get it fixed. It will just get much worse with the danger of
major engine damage due coolant ingress into a cylinder (enough causes
hydraulic-lock) or just plain overheating and head-damage.

Jason
The Raven - 26 Jun 2004 00:15 GMT
I forgot to mention there is also a rubber pipe extending from the left hand
side of the motor, to your heater box, it's found, and i tell you mate
bloody hard to replace lol  but with time and patience, you can do it
yourself. I found on my EA it was a matter of uding the pipe, and also it
attaches to the heater switch sort of gadget that allows hot air and cold
ait to travel to the inside of your car. DOnt know the proper name, but it
could be this rubber pipe that is leaking. It is found behind your inlet
manifold, and is i think either 3/4 inch diameter ot 1/2 inch. and is about
18 inches long.

Good luck

Peter

> Gotta love them Falcon head gaskets (I know Noddy, poor maintenance not
> design fault :-)).
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Cheers,
> Matt
Noddy - 26 Jun 2004 00:17 GMT
> Gotta love them Falcon head gaskets (I know Noddy, poor maintenance not
> design fault :-)).

You got it :)

> So, I assume I have blown a head gasket?

Not necessarily.

That particular area is a common site for thermostat housing leaks, from
either the upper or lower section of the housing, and I'd be checking things
out in the area thoroughly before I spent money on a head gasket.

> I'm cash strapped at the moment, so I'm wondering if I will cause any
> more damage by ignoring the problem for a while?

If all it's doing is losing the coolant like you say, then my guess would
"no", but you have to bear in mind that I'm not there looking at your car in
person so I can't tell you with any certainty.

Have you taken the plugs out to check for colour change in one or more
cylinders?

> If ignoring it is a Very Bad Idea (TM), what about using one of those
> coolant-sealant type products? I really only need this car to last
> another 6 months without being too expensive, I can afford to fix it
> properly at the start of next year.

If you've got a genuine head gasket problem, then there is no product other
than a new gasket that will fix it I'm afraid.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
Matt - 26 Jun 2004 01:44 GMT
>>Gotta love them Falcon head gaskets (I know Noddy, poor maintenance not
>>design fault :-)).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> either the upper or lower section of the housing, and I'd be checking things
> out in the area thoroughly before I spent money on a head gasket.

Hmm ok, I'll have another look today and check the thermostat.

>>I'm cash strapped at the moment, so I'm wondering if I will cause any
>>more damage by ignoring the problem for a while?
>
> If all it's doing is losing the coolant like you say, then my guess would
> "no", but you have to bear in mind that I'm not there looking at your car in
> person so I can't tell you with any certainty.

Fair enough, thanks for the opinion. Disclaimer noted :-)

> Have you taken the plugs out to check for colour change in one or more
> cylinders?

No, I haven't - what sort of colour change am I looking for? I assume I
should be checking the cylinders near where it appears the leak is
coming from?

>>If ignoring it is a Very Bad Idea (TM), what about using one of those
>>coolant-sealant type products? I really only need this car to last
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you've got a genuine head gasket problem, then there is no product other
> than a new gasket that will fix it I'm afraid.

Aye, I was afraid of that. Here's to a thermostat problem! :-)

Cheers,
Matt
Noddy - 26 Jun 2004 02:43 GMT
"Matt" <mattremove@thisstuffpowerchipgroup.com> wrote in message
news:40dcc6df$0$24753$5a62ac22@per-

> No, I haven't - what sort of colour change am I looking for? I assume I
> should be checking the cylinders near where it appears the leak is
> coming from?

You should, and any plugs that look light coloured or "washed" in comparison
to the others would be a good sign that it's geting water into a cylinder.

It doesn't happen every time, but if it's oviously going on then I'd
recommend you *don't* drive the thing very much as repair it as soon as
possible before you do significant damage.

> Aye, I was afraid of that. Here's to a thermostat problem! :-)]

Finger's crossed :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.
Matt - 27 Jun 2004 11:29 GMT
Spent a while on the car today:

Very strange: no sign at all of the leak on the passenger side I
reported before - checked it when cold, drove the car for 15 minutes,
re-checked, let it cool down, checked again, and no leak. Maybe what I
saw originally was not coolant but liquid from elsewhere, although it
smelt like it coolant (couldn't see the colour as the water was mixed
with gunk from the side of the engine).

However, I did find another leak (or more likely, the only leak, and I
was incorrect about the other one). Drivers side of the engine, near the
front again. Appears to be coming from the join between the head and the
block, underneath the very front of the exhaust manifold (can't actually
see the site of the leak, but the side of the block is wet below that
point). So I take it that's the head gasket :-( At least there's still
no sign of mixing betwen oil and water.

Also FYI Noddy, I checked the plugs in the front two cylinders and both
appear normal (I don't know what a "washed" plug looks like exactly, but
both were a brownish tan colour which didn't look "washed" :-)).

Anyway, I'll have to take the car in this week to get it fixed.

At the same time I want to get the belts tightened/changed (engine is
making a very loud squeak-squeak-squeak when cold which I assume is the
belts?), and the rocker cover gasket replaced (weeping oil). Can someone
give me a vague estimate to how much head gasket + belts + rocker cover
gasket should cost, ignoring any unforeseen difficulties? Just a
ballpark figure, want to make sure I don't get ripped off :-)

Cheers,
Matt
Pat Sproule - 27 Jun 2004 22:53 GMT
The squeak in an E series falc is often the idler pulley bearing.

Pat

> Spent a while on the car today:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Cheers,
> Matt
Noddy - 27 Jun 2004 23:43 GMT
"Matt" <mattremove@thisstuffpowerchipgroup.com> wrote in message
news:40dea18b$0$24770$5a62ac22@per-

> However, I did find another leak (or more likely, the only leak, and I
> was incorrect about the other one). Drivers side of the engine, near the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> point). So I take it that's the head gasket :-( At least there's still
> no sign of mixing betwen oil and water.

The driver's side is generally the most common side for leaks of that type,
as there is a series of water passage holes that run close to the outside
edge of the head, and they will corode and lose fluid if the corrosion
inhibitor isn't kept up to spec.

Such a leak generally shows up as white streaks down the outside of the
block, under the exhaust manifold, and rarely, if ever, will coolant run
into the oil if that's what it is.

> Also FYI Noddy, I checked the plugs in the front two cylinders and both
> appear normal (I don't know what a "washed" plug looks like exactly, but
> both were a brownish tan colour which didn't look "washed" :-)).

They sound fine. Sorry, but I should have explained a bit better :)

"Washed" simply means they were exposed to coolant getting under the gasket
and into the cylinder that turned to "steam" when the cylinder fired. It
tends te make plugs look very clean and new, and distinctly different to the
others in the engine.

The reason I asked if it was doing this is that there is a danger of
damaging the engine if coolant is leaking into the cylinder, but not from
when the engine is running. Such dangers occur *after* the engine is
switched off.

The problem with leaks into cylinders is that once the engine is shut down,
the coolant will generally continue to leak into the cylinder, and is often
"forced" in quite quickly by the added bonus of the coolant pressure rising
after the engine is switched off. This can place a considerable amount of
coolant in the cylinder that will lie in wait for the next time you crank
the engine.

What will happen when you do depends totally on how lucky you are.

If the engine stopped with one of the valves on that cylinder open (or about
to open), then the coolant will be blown out through the valve and nothing
will happen. However, if that cylinder is on it's compression stroke and
about to fire it's plug, cranking the starter can cause severe damage to the
connecting rod as it tries to compress the coolant.

> Anyway, I'll have to take the car in this week to get it fixed.

Bugger.

> At the same time I want to get the belts tightened/changed (engine is
> making a very loud squeak-squeak-squeak when cold which I assume is the
> belts?), and the rocker cover gasket replaced (weeping oil). Can someone
> give me a vague estimate to how much head gasket + belts + rocker cover
> gasket should cost, ignoring any unforeseen difficulties? Just a
> ballpark figure, want to make sure I don't get ripped off :-)

It's hard to say with any degree of accuracy without actually seeing the
condition of your head once it's off.

The rocker cover gasket is all of 15 bucks or so, and shouldn't cost
anything to fit as the rocker cover will be off anyway. Squeaking noises
from the front of the engine are related to the idler pulley bearing most
times, and that's probably around 40 bucks or so.

A standard head gasket replacement would run around 600 bucks in my opinion,
but I'd add another 250 to that if your head casting has corroded in the
coolant passages and needs to be welded in a few places.

In a worse case scenario, I think you'd get a bit of change out of a grand.
In a good case, you'd get lots.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
Kieron - 28 Jun 2004 02:23 GMT
>The rocker cover gasket is all of 15 bucks or so, and shouldn't cost
>anything to fit as the rocker cover will be off anyway. Squeaking noises
>from the front of the engine are related to the idler pulley bearing most
>times, and that's probably around 40 bucks or so.

If the ED is the same as the EA pullies (pretty sure it is), you can
knock the old bearing out and replace it. I don't racall the price of
a new bearing but for some reason around $7 sticks in my mind, could
be wrong though.

>A standard head gasket replacement would run around 600 bucks in my opinion,
>but I'd add another 250 to that if your head casting has corroded in the
>coolant passages and needs to be welded in a few places.
>
>In a worse case scenario, I think you'd get a bit of change out of a grand.
>In a good case, you'd get lots.

If the place is decent, circa $800 inc a change over head
Waity - 28 Jun 2004 05:03 GMT
I own an EF falcon and I got my headgasket and inlet manifold gasket
done and it cost me $1200.  A week later, I helped some mates do the
head gasket on an EA and it cost him 200 bucks including a replacement
cam.  Needless to say I am now on the hunt for a new mechanic, in the
meantime it is me, but I'm not as knowledgable as I would like.  Noddy
seams to know what he is on about, so I'd listen to him instead of
this rambling old idiot!

Have a good one guys!
Matt - 28 Jun 2004 10:26 GMT
>>However, I did find another leak (or more likely, the only leak, and I
>>was incorrect about the other one). Drivers side of the engine, near the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> edge of the head, and they will corode and lose fluid if the corrosion
> inhibitor isn't kept up to spec.

Ahh bugger, I was hoping it would just be a ruptured gasket, not
corrosion. The cooling system has been well maintained while I've had
the car, but that's only 30,000 out of it's 240,000 kms :-(

> Such a leak generally shows up as white streaks down the outside of the
> block, under the exhaust manifold, and rarely, if ever, will coolant run
> into the oil if that's what it is.

No sign of white streaks, but it's *definately* leaking from there. I
cleaned up the area where the block appeared wet, ran the car for a
while, and after that there was definately green liquid on the side of
the block.

>>Also FYI Noddy, I checked the plugs in the front two cylinders and both
>>appear normal (I don't know what a "washed" plug looks like exactly, but
>>both were a brownish tan colour which didn't look "washed" :-)).
>
> They sound fine. Sorry, but I should have explained a bit better :)

No worries, I figured washed would mean cleaned as you described :-)

> The problem with leaks into cylinders is that once the engine is shut down,
> the coolant will generally continue to leak into the cylinder, and is often
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> about to fire it's plug, cranking the starter can cause severe damage to the
> connecting rod as it tries to compress the coolant.

I was aware of this... but didn't know a reliable way to check it.
Again, thanks for the good info.

> It's hard to say with any degree of accuracy without actually seeing the
> condition of your head once it's off.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In a worse case scenario, I think you'd get a bit of change out of a grand.
> In a good case, you'd get lots.

Thanks, exactly what I wanted to know... expensive but not ridiculous, I
suppose :-(

Thanks Noddy and everyone else for the assistance - I wish you weren't
in retirement Noddy, with my luck with cars I'd be chucking a lot of
business your way :-)

Cheers,
Matt
Matt - 02 Jul 2004 11:11 GMT
Yep, was a head gasket.

Cost me a little more than estimated in here - $1051 - mighta got ripped
off a bit, but by the time they had the head off I wasn't going to
quibble over $200, and it was within the estimates they gave me.

The bill included a complete top-end gasket set, new cylinder head bolt
set, new thermostat, new coolant, welding the cylinder head in 3 places
(all minor), and all associated labour (8 hours).

Thanks for the help everyone.

Cheers,
Matt

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