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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Falcon / September 2004dual fuel set up . . . X-POSTED to aus.cars
1) My '98 duel fuel falcon wagon has got about 110,000K on the clock, & the petrol pump started getting noisy yesterday after travelling 1/2 hour....a noise rather like a stationary traction engines' relief steam valve: steady loud whining (enter pommy jokes here :P). The petrol pump runs all the time even when on LPG.....should this be so???? 2) I would have thought the petrol pump should be in-active when LPG is used, unless the aim is to have the petrol system primed ready for un-faltering switch back from LPG to petrol. What do you think? 3) Do you think the petrol pump has failed prematurely? I'm wondering if there might be some junk in it from having old fuel in the tank, & that having the fuel level too low might have generated some rust in the tank...I am guilty of having the petrol level too low in the past & not running it often enough on petrol. The car runs without probs on petrol. I'm guessing a failing pump. New pump, & clean out the tank....change filter if tank dirty. cheers Rob :) > 1) My '98 duel fuel falcon wagon has got about 110,000K on the clock, & > the petrol pump started getting noisy yesterday after travelling 1/2 > hour....a noise rather like a stationary traction engines' relief steam > valve: steady loud whining (enter pommy jokes here :P). You're quite sure it's the fuel pump? It should be inside the petrol tankl... > The petrol pump runs all the time even when on LPG.....should this be so???? Yes. > 2) I would have thought the petrol pump should be in-active when LPG is > used, unless the aim is to have the petrol system primed ready for > un-faltering switch back from LPG to petrol. > What do you think? On an injected vehicle the pump runs even when on gas. The fuel pressure regulator simply returns all the fuel to the tank. This way the fuel rail always has fresh fuel at the correct pressure ready to go. The petrol supply is cut off by disconnecting the injectors so they never open. > 3) Do you think the petrol pump has failed prematurely? I don't know. I haven't seen or heard the car, but it doesn't sound much like a fuel pump failure from your description. > ... I'm wondering if > there might be some junk in it from having old fuel in the tank, & that > having the fuel level too low might have generated some rust in the tank...I > am guilty of having the petrol level too low in the past & not running it > often enough on petrol. The fuel pump relies on the fuel passing through it to cool it. On a petrol only car, since the motor stops when there is no fuel, the pump never overheats. On LPG, very low petrol levels can allow the pump to overheat. > The car runs without probs on petrol. > I'm guessing a failing pump. Read those two sentences in isolation. It runs fine on petrol, so you think it's got a fuel pump failure??? > New pump, & clean out the tank....change filter > if tank dirty. Diagnose first. Confirm diagnosis. Then, and only then, spend money fixing the problem. Yep I am sure it is the fuel pump making the noise as I temporarily electrically disconnected the pump while the car was running on LPG. The fuel pump must be on its way out.....I'm on my way out the door to buy a new pump! :) thanks :) Rob > > 1) My '98 duel fuel falcon wagon has got about 110,000K on the clock, & > > the petrol pump started getting noisy yesterday after travelling 1/2 [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Then, and only then, spend money fixing the problem. > 1) My '98 duel fuel falcon wagon has got about 110,000K on the clock, & > the petrol pump started getting noisy yesterday after travelling 1/2 > hour....a noise rather like a stationary traction engines' relief steam > valve: steady loud whining (enter pommy jokes here :P). > The petrol pump runs all the time even when on LPG.....should this be so???? You answered you own question correctly in 2) > 2) I would have thought the petrol pump should be in-active when LPG is > used, unless the aim is to have the petrol system primed ready for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > am guilty of having the petrol level too low in the past & not running it > often enough on petrol. Thats the problem and its a common one, running low on petrol can cause the pump to overheat and fail, replace the pump and keep the tank at least 1/4 full. Daryl This post could save you, and others who read it, a packet. My 1989 F150 is dual fuel and is still going strong. But about five years ago I had to spend a fortune on repairs because noone told me what I am about to tell members of this group. The F150 has two fuel tanks and, after switching to LPG, I used only one. And even this was often almost empty. Big mistake! Both tanks corroded and the in-tank low pressure pumps, and the senders, also rotted away. When I got around to doing something about it one tank was a write-off (with LPG I could do without it) and the other cost almost $2,000 to repair - tank, fuel pump and sender. So tell anyone who has duel fuel to keep ALL petrol tanks full. Now I am down to one tank, every six months, I empty that tank by running on petrol. This is because petrol deteriorates. My LPG man told me that, after standing for a year or so, petrol is hardly recognizable as petrol. So with dual fuel, keep your petrol tank full and rotate the fuel twice a year. In aus.cars ken kerrison <kkerrison@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > The F150 has two fuel tanks and, after switching to LPG, I used only > one. And even this was often almost empty. Big mistake! Both tanks > corroded and the in-tank low pressure pumps, and the senders, also > rotted away. > When I got around to doing something about it one tank was a write-off > (with LPG I could do without it) and the other cost almost $2,000 to > repair - tank, fuel pump and sender. Better option would have been to rip out all of the dead weight of petrol parts entirely and add at least one more LPG tank. The cost of adding an extra LPG tank would have been less than the repairs you did on the unneccessary petrol system. For that money, you could probably have got a pair of tanks in place of the petrol tanks... The vehicle would probably _still_ be lighter than it is with one petrol tank and all the other crap still in there... > So tell anyone who has duel fuel to keep ALL petrol tanks full. No. Wrong answer. If you are going to have dual fuel, you need to run at least half a tank of petrol every couple of months. This can be one trip or a few km every day. Then, when the tank is down to between half and quarter, fill it up again. Only allow it to go below quarter if you are _only_ running petrol at the time. The EFI fuel pump adds heat to the fuel, and running for an extended period on LPG while having little petrol in the tank _will_ damage things. If you want to run it right down before filling, run it on petrol right until you fill it up. > Now I am down to one tank, every six months, I empty that tank by > running on petrol. This is because petrol deteriorates. My LPG man > told me that, after standing for a year or so, petrol is hardly > recognizable as petrol. Six months is way too long between fills. Your fuel injectors will likely be the next expensive repair. Or perhaps a fuel regulator or the fuel rails... Pumping 6-month old petrol through the lines, fuel rails and regulator every time you drive is not a good thing. Even worse if the EFI pumps don't run while on LPG. 6-month old petrol sitting in the whole system without moving _will_ damage all of the petrol system parts. Just ask Graham W in aus.cars, who has deliberately chosen to do that to his car. I think that he was just too lazy to remove all of the petrol parts. :-) > So with dual fuel, keep your petrol tank full and rotate the fuel > twice a year. Very wrong advice. Rotation and dilution should occur _far_ more often than that or the petrol should be removed entirely.  SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. When running on dual fuel what i do is fill up on both, run the gas until it goes down to the yellow light, not the red, and thehn use the petrol until it gos near empty and fill both back up. I don't really want any stale petrol in the car. > In aus.cars ken kerrison <kkerrison@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > Linux Registered User # 254000 > I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. In the last week I'd changed my petrol fuel pump in my '98 Falcon wagon, $170 from Supercheap Autos. From Fords: a rubber seal costing $20: rip-off......not sure if silicon or something could have done this job. The strainer for that pump was really clogged & no light was visible thru it compared to the new one. I've not yet tested the original pump to see if it's ok for re-sale. I too, wasn't made aware by the LPG installer (slackos from Caloundra!!!) till almost a year after installation of the need to keep at least 1/4 tank of fuel in there. A post from uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg said that the sloshing around of the fuel will help keep the tank protected from rust. The pump also generates heat which would be dissipated better if a fair amount of fuel is in the tank. My tank didn't look too bad inside....hope to upload the pics etc to the Ford Forum ( www.fordmods.com ) sometime of it all if it's of interest to them. There is also a requirement to use the petrol system: in my case recommended 10mins per week. My LPG installer failed connect the petrol filler hose which left my petrol tank exposed to the elements blowing up under the wheel arch for ages....only when I tried to fill with petrol, & found it pissing on my foot did I realise their bodge job!!! I still don't see why the petrol pump needs to be running when it's on LPG. Why not immobilise the pump & injectors when it's on LPG? Yes, I guess there would be some lag when switching over to petrol from LPG, but no more than changing to LPG from petrol....takes a few seconds to pick up: runs lumpy. What do you think? I now have decided to keep 1/2 tank of petrol, & make sure it's used within a reasonable storage period. Rob > When running on dual fuel what i do is fill up on both, run the gas until it > goes down to the yellow light, not the red, and thehn use the petrol until [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 Some installers switch of the injectors and leave the petrol pump running, other switch off the petrol pump and leave the injectors running. If the former then it is important to keep some petrol in the tank otherwise the pump will race if the dip tube is exposed. Also, as any owner of a petrol engined lawn mower will tell you, petrol does go off in time so it is advisable to use it and refresh it from time to time. (It's also a good idea cos it confirms you r petrol system is still working OK. Hugh In message <Ciidu7$kiq$1@austar-news.austar.net.au>, Rob & Shel <spamsucks@dontsendittome.com> writes >In the last week I'd changed my petrol fuel pump in my '98 Falcon wagon, >$170 from Supercheap Autos. [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting I used to run my workvan on petrol on the 1/2 way home every Friday and to work every Monday, this meant it was parked with the carby full of fuel all weekend, and also I could clutch start it if I forgot to turn off the 2way radio. It would not clutch start on LPG. 3 years no problems. > In the last week I'd changed my petrol fuel pump in my '98 Falcon wagon, > $170 from Supercheap Autos. [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 >I still don't see why the petrol pump needs to be running when it's on LPG. >Why not immobilise the pump & injectors when it's on LPG? >Yes, I guess there would be some lag when switching over to petrol from LPG, >but no more than changing to LPG from petrol....takes a few seconds to pick >up: runs lumpy. >What do you think? running a Land Rover Discovery here, with the pump in the tank which may well be similar. My system runs the pump all the time too, seeing as I installed it, the reason for this is mostly that I didn't bother stopping it. from the sound of things, you've been running full-time LPG, else you'd have used the petrol in the tank and replaced it. What i normally do with mine is to fire up on petrol the first start of the day, and run it 'til I get out of the gate and onto the road, I normally change it during the 2nd-3rd gearchange. This makes sure the petrol system still works. If you disconnect the petrol pump and run full-time on LPG then you run the risk that the petrol pump won't work when you want it to. This type of pump is designed for continuous running, and it'd run continuously on a petrol car. >I now have decided to keep 1/2 tank of petrol, & make sure it's used within >a reasonable storage period. I have a small auxiliary tank, and it gets used anyway sometimes if I run the LPG tank out, and also it gradually gets used in doing the starting above. Most of the time I force it to start on LPG though. > 1) My '98 duel fuel falcon wagon has got about 110,000K on the clock, & > the petrol pump started getting noisy yesterday after travelling 1/2 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > un-faltering switch back from LPG to petrol. > What do you think? If it was my car Id have a switch to turn off the EFI pump for most of the time. Allow it to run once a day for a few minutes before shutdown in the evening. Then at least once a week, run the car on petrol making sure you replenish the top 10 or so litres once a month to keep the fuel fresh. Always leave a residual 10 litres in the tank as a minimum. In other words, a total of 20 litres in the petrol tank maximum,..10 litres minimum. Leaving the petrol system in an LPG converted car has its advantages if you plan to do a long trip. Jason In aus.cars Jason James <vellicet@bigpond.com> wrote: > Leaving the petrol system in an LPG converted car has its advantages if you > plan to do a long trip. Which you have to balance against the disadvantages, which include lugging around a significant weight of unneeded petrol parts, not being able to tune and modify the engine to optimise its efficiency on LPG, etc.. Straight LPG with a large enough tank or multiple tanks is a better option. Failing that, a BBQ bottle and adapter hose just in case. :-) SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > In aus.cars Jason James <vellicet@bigpond.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Straight LPG with a large enough tank or multiple tanks is a better > option. Failing that, a BBQ bottle and adapter hose just in case. :-) True,...I guess its an individual thing. I could have gone dedicated, but the option of running both tanks full once a cheap service-station is found and the fact the 5.8 wouldn't notice the extra weight,..much,....well you get the drift :-) Jason > True,...I guess its an individual thing. I could have gone dedicated, but > the option of running both tanks full once a cheap service-station is found I had a servo attnedant try to persuade me to buy a tank of petrol to go with my gas because it was particularly cheap. He couldn't seem to understand that the cheapest petrol is still far more expensive than gas. In aus.cars Graham W <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote: >> True,...I guess its an individual thing. I could have gone dedicated, but >> the option of running both tanks full once a cheap service-station is found > I had a servo attnedant try to persuade me to buy a tank of petrol to go > with my gas because it was particularly cheap. He couldn't seem to > understand that the cheapest petrol is still far more expensive than gas. Indeed. That was my point in suggesting extra LPG tanks and/or a BBQ bottle jerry can for long trips. I still miss the 175L LPG tank that I had in my old ute... :-( SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > In aus.cars Graham W <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote: >>I had a servo attnedant try to persuade me to buy a tank of petrol to go >>with my gas because it was particularly cheap. He couldn't seem to >>understand that the cheapest petrol is still far more expensive than gas. > Indeed. That was my point in suggesting extra LPG tanks and/or a BBQ > bottle jerry can for long trips. > > I still miss the 175L LPG tank that I had in my old ute... :-( My next car will be a ute and it will get a second gas tank. I want enough capacity for 2 weeks of normal driving, about 1000km, so that it doesn't matter if I miss the price rise on Friday. I've got a BBQ bottle and hose. > > True,...I guess its an individual thing. I could have gone dedicated, but > > the option of running both tanks full once a cheap service-station is found > > I had a servo attnedant try to persuade me to buy a tank of petrol to go > with my gas because it was particularly cheap. He couldn't seem to > understand that the cheapest petrol is still far more expensive than gas. If it's cheap, why not, better than the bill you get for fixing a dual fuel car after not running petrol for12 months. >>I had a servo attnedant try to persuade me to buy a tank of petrol to go >>with my gas because it was particularly cheap. He couldn't seem to >>understand that the cheapest petrol is still far more expensive than gas. > If it's cheap, why not, better than the bill you get for fixing a dual fuel > car after not running petrol for 12 months. When I first put the car on gas I ran it on petrol regularly and the injectors got crappy anyway. It cost about $120 to fix. I kept running it on petrol regularly and they did it again. So for five years I haven't bothered running it on petrol any more. Now they're so bad it barely runs on petrol, but at $1 per litre, who cares? First cold start of the day takes about 5 seconds cranking, every other start it fires first turn just like petrol. I'll have to spend the money to clean or replace them when I sell it regardless of whether I run it on petrol regularly, so why waste money? > >>I had a servo attnedant try to persuade me to buy a tank of petrol to go > >>with my gas because it was particularly cheap. He couldn't seem to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > First cold start of the day takes about 5 seconds cranking, every other > start it fires first turn just like petrol. It shouldn't do that,..unless my install is some kind of freeak! It starts 2nd crank on LPG. When its hot,..that's another story. I have to time exactly when I apply throttle. Its a crappy OMVL set-up. > I'll have to spend the money to clean or replace them when I sell it > regardless of whether I run it on petrol regularly, so why waste money? Supply is one reason out here in the sticks,..and the fact I dont like the Uh,..female members of the family driving it on gas (on the rare occasions they need my old Ford). They seem to stuff-up starting it every time. Its a carby not EFI,.. I've had no problems with the petrol system. Jason In aus.cars Jason James <vellicet@bigpond.com> wrote: >> First cold start of the day takes about 5 seconds cranking, every other >> start it fires first turn just like petrol. > It shouldn't do that,..unless my install is some kind of freeak! It starts > 2nd crank on LPG. When its hot,..that's another story. I have to time > exactly when I apply throttle. Its a crappy OMVL set-up. What it does when hot is _not_ another story. Graham's system, as described, is "underprimed". Yours is clearly badly overprimed to the extent of flooding. Guess which one I choose? If I refitted the prime solenoid to my convertor and simply powered it from the starter circuit, I could have as faulty an installation as yours! If I got really enthusiastic, I could install an old "thermo-time switch" from a mechanical injection system such the old Volvo system and wire the prime solenoid from that - the wiring for exactly that is still attached to the solenoid lying in the shed. The nett result would be a prime solenoid that operates only when cold, giving adequate prime like yours when cold but not overpriming when hot, just like Graham's. >> I'll have to spend the money to clean or replace them when I sell it >> regardless of whether I run it on petrol regularly, so why waste money? > Supply is one reason out here in the sticks,..and the fact I dont like the > Uh,..female members of the family driving it on gas (on the rare occasions > they need my old Ford). They seem to stuff-up starting it every time. Its a > carby not EFI,.. I've had no problems with the petrol system. Ah, so a _fault_ in the installation becomes the justification for making your vehicle have to carry extra weight and have significantly less than optimal performance and efficiency. SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. >>"Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote: >>>First cold start of the day takes about 5 seconds cranking, every other >>>start it fires first turn just like petrol. > In aus.cars Jason James <vellicet@bigpond.com> wrote: >>It shouldn't do that,..unless my install is some kind of freeak! Or I'm not using the manual petrol switch to fire it up on petrol. When the injectors are clean it starts first turn from stone cold on petrol. But if it's been running on gas, you don't want to add petrol too, which is why they fitted a manual prime switch instead of auto starting on petrol. > What it does when hot is _not_ another story. Graham's system, as > described, is "underprimed". Yours is clearly badly overprimed to the > extent of flooding. Guess which one I choose? Mine is of course intended to be underprimed and manually started on petrol when necessary. > If I refitted the prime solenoid to my convertor and simply powered it > from the starter circuit, I could have as faulty an installation as yours! And if I could be bothered, I'd fit a prime solenoid and manually prime mine first thing in the morning. As it is, if it sounds like the battery might not survive 5 seconds of cranking, I open the bonnet and press the button myself. > If I got really enthusiastic, I could install an old "thermo-time switch" > from a mechanical injection system such the old Volvo system and wire the > prime solenoid from that - the wiring for exactly that is still attached > to the solenoid lying in the shed. The nett result would be a prime > solenoid that operates only when cold, giving adequate prime like yours > when cold but not overpriming when hot, just like Graham's. "If I really got enthusiastic" just about sums it up. I'll clean the injectors when the time comes to sell, then it will start fine cold. Meanwhile I see no point in spending $120 every 6 to 12 months for a petrol system that costs me more money to run. >>>I'll have to spend the money to clean or replace them when I sell it >>>regardless of whether I run it on petrol regularly, so why waste money? >>Supply is one reason out here in the sticks,..and the fact I dont like the >>Uh,..female members of the family driving it on gas (on the rare occasions >>they need my old Ford). They seem to stuff-up starting it every time. Its a >>carby not EFI,.. I've had no problems with the petrol system. > Ah, so a _fault_ in the installation becomes the justification for making > your vehicle have to carry extra weight and have significantly less than > optimal performance and efficiency. 8-) People leave the petrol in because the gas isn't up to scratch, because they've left all the petrol junk in. In aus.cars Graham W <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote: >> Ah, so a _fault_ in the installation becomes the justification for making >> your vehicle have to carry extra weight and have significantly less than >> optimal performance and efficiency. > 8-) > People leave the petrol in because the gas isn't up to scratch, because > they've left all the petrol junk in. Sad, isn't it? :-) SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > In aus.cars Jason James <vellicet@bigpond.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > described, is "underprimed". Yours is clearly badly overprimed to the > extent of flooding. Guess which one I choose? OK,..I see your point. My understanding was based in part on experience with a taxi my FIL had me 'servicing' (read any standard accepted if it's free). It had a BBQ burner on top of the carb with a large diaphragm. The thing seemed to have no priming, it just ran on one mixture. Mine is over-gassing when hot (if I cut the gas to scavenge the gas intake plumbing causing a switch-off when hot, it will restart easier) I wasn't aware there was a hot-start circuit. > If I refitted the prime solenoid to my convertor and simply powered it > from the starter circuit, I could have as faulty an installation as yours! That is what it appears to do, now you mentioned it. I get the 'click swoosh click' noise every starting process. > If I got really enthusiastic, I could install an old "thermo-time switch" > from a mechanical injection system such the old Volvo system and wire the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > your vehicle have to carry extra weight and have significantly less than > optimal performance and efficiency. Not entirely Athol. I cannot get really decent gas performance on the 351 despite trying a number of ignition timing curves. This problem is most noticeable when the secs open. The conv has 250hp stamped in its back-plate,... Then there is the background issues like the re-emergence of what appears to be valve problems (have to confirm this). If I had a car which ran without any problems at all on LPG, save for the usual tuning ones which pop up from time to time. I would be more than happy to go dedicated after confirming supply availability at all the popular refueling hamlets on secondry hi-ways. (bush to coast) Jason > > If it's cheap, why not, better than the bill you get for fixing a dual fuel > > car after not running petrol for 12 months. > > When I first put the car on gas I ran it on petrol regularly and the > injectors got crappy anyway. It cost about $120 to fix. Maybe you should get a carby instead, no such problems with my Econovan in 4 years. > I kept running it on petrol regularly and they did it again. So for five > years I haven't bothered running it on petrol any more. Now they're so > bad it barely runs on petrol, but at $1 per litre, who cares? A mate did when he had to stay a Sunday night in some remote mid NSW town waiting for the mechanic on Monday to charge him $300 to get his carby working again or wait another 2 days for the weekly LPG delivery. > First cold start of the day takes about 5 seconds cranking, every other > start it fires first turn just like petrol. > I'll have to spend the money to clean or replace them when I sell it > regardless of whether I run it on petrol regularly, so why waste money? Sounds like you're really wasting money by still having the petrol option at all. >>When I first put the car on gas I ran it on petrol regularly and the >>injectors got crappy anyway. It cost about $120 to fix. > Maybe you should get a carby instead, no such problems with my Econovan in 4 > years. Getting a carby makes about as much sense as buying petrol because it's 80c/litre, even though gas is only 50c/litre. I don't particularly want to run on petrol. I don't ever try to run on petrol. And if/when I ever sell the car, $120 will restore it's ability to run on petrol. >>I kept running it on petrol regularly and they did it again. So for five >>years I haven't bothered running it on petrol any more. Now they're so >>bad it barely runs on petrol, but at $1 per litre, who cares? > A mate did when he had to stay a Sunday night in some remote mid NSW town > waiting for the mechanic on Monday to charge him $300 to get his carby > working again or wait another 2 days for the weekly LPG delivery. I'll keep that in mind next time I travel to Outer Nowhere. >>First cold start of the day takes about 5 seconds cranking, every other >>start it fires first turn just like petrol. >>I'll have to spend the money to clean or replace them when I sell it >>regardless of whether I run it on petrol regularly, so why waste money? > Sounds like you're really wasting money by still having the petrol option at > all. No, because I'm not spending any money retaining the petrol. It would have cost more to remove all the petrol bits, and this way around for $120 I clean out the injectors and the next owner is happy he's got all the hassles of dual fuel.
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