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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Falcon / September 2003

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Upgrading brakes: XD

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Jason James - 25 Aug 2003 05:23 GMT
If you wanted to put bigger brakes on an XD (FC LTD) without the expense of
Brembo calipers, would it be possible to fit F100 or similar Ford light
truck calipers?

Anyone been down this path?

Thanx,....Jason
Brett - 26 Aug 2003 12:00 GMT
Are you running the standard XD camshaft from factory  ???
If not , you vaccuum pressure would be quite different....
Regardless if your booster seems to work , its not efficiant as it should be
with lower vaccuum pressure....

Brett...

> If you wanted to put bigger brakes on an XD (FC LTD) without the expense of
> Brembo calipers, would it be possible to fit F100 or similar Ford light
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Thanx,....Jason
Jason James - 26 Aug 2003 14:35 GMT
> Are you running the standard XD camshaft from factory  ???
> If not , you vaccuum pressure would be quite different....
> Regardless if your booster seems to work , its not efficiant as it should be
> with lower vaccuum pressure....
>
> Brett...

The engine is stock apart from a supposed gas-cam/ It pulls about 14.5 in
at850rpm.
The old motor which had a knackered valve still pulled 12.5in.

Jason
Bushy - 28 Aug 2003 14:30 GMT
But any twenty year old crossflow 250 with passable rings that doesn't blow
to much smoke will still get a good 18 to 20 inches at idle. And a good 25
inches with engine deceleration. Maybe your vacuum is lower than you
realise. They started out with fairly high compression as they ran on super
unlike the later unleaded ones. Half a second at the better levels will
improve the vacuum level and the check valve will hold it until the next
time you brake and use it. Try taking it for a drive and comparing the
vacuum you can get by allowing a little engine braking to build your vacuum
reserve.

Can you still get decent braking if you stand on the pedal, cause it might
not be the booster and may be something else like a little bubble in the
lines from when the last time the brakes were bleed the level dropped a
little to much and let a small bubble enter. Maybe bleed them again and see
how much difference you can get by flushing the whole system volume.

Do a double check for any leaks in the remainder of the inlet manifold and
vacuum hoses, maybe there is a leak under the dash in the heater controls.
This can be bypassed at the manifold end and a bung put into where it joins
on to seal it.

If you want improved vacuum levels and improved pedal assistance, and your
motor will not provide enough vacuum, then consider an alternator mounted
vacuum pump like fitted to most diesels. You can probably get a more
powerful alternator at the same time that mounts on the same bracket and
most modern ones are internally regulated. Pulleys can be changed on many
models to suit.

Hope this helps,
Peter
Jason James - 28 Aug 2003 20:30 GMT
> But any twenty year old crossflow 250 with passable rings that doesn't blow
> to much smoke will still get a good 18 to 20 inches at idle. And a good 25
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> vacuum you can get by allowing a little engine braking to build your vacuum
> reserve.

V8s do run a lower vac die to the cylinder overlaps. And yes on over-ride
the vac builds up big-time, however the brakes are still only just adequate
even then.

> Can you still get decent braking if you stand on the pedal, cause it might
> not be the booster and may be something else like a little bubble in the
> lines from when the last time the brakes were bleed the level dropped a
> little to much and let a small bubble enter. Maybe bleed them again and see
> how much difference you can get by flushing the whole system volume.

If you stand on the pedal the brakes do lock-up the fronts, but I'm talking
a lot of pedal pressure here. The lasr rego test had the giy doing this. He
didnt comment as I had asked them to fix the brakes, but they weren't going
to admit they were suss which leads me to think they are infamous for being
marginal,....but not according to Athol and some others.

> Do a double check for any leaks in the remainder of the inlet manifold and
> vacuum hoses, maybe there is a leak under the dash in the heater controls.
> This can be bypassed at the manifold end and a bung put into where it joins
> on to seal it.

I took everthing off and plugged the tree,..but the action was the same.

> If you want improved vacuum levels and improved pedal assistance, and your
> motor will not provide enough vacuum, then consider an alternator mounted
> vacuum pump like fitted to most diesels. You can probably get a more
> powerful alternator at the same time that mounts on the same bracket and
> most modern ones are internally regulated. Pulleys can be changed on many
> models to suit.

OK is that were they are? Diesels,..OK. I'm going to repalce the booster
now,..it is 25yo I suppose.

Jason

> Hope this helps,
> Peter
Kieron - 29 Aug 2003 03:25 GMT
>to admit they were suss which leads me to think they are infamous for being
>marginal,....but not according to Athol and some others.

Ultimately JJ, the combo of disk/disk and V8 in these cars aren't the
best with the 6 pot/V8 disk/drum setup being better, and this was
known back when these cars were new.

I've had 6 pot disk/drum XB/C/D's and 2 disk braked LTD's,  V8 XA
disk/drum, XC V8 disk/drum and the drum setup all had better pedal
feel and stopped better.

My brother has an immaculate ZH Fairlane with 4.9 and disk/disk, and
its exactly how I recalled my LTD's, wooden pedal requiring a fair
shove for heavy braking but fortunately as its a luxo car, it dictates
sedate driving and I drive it knowing full well its braking
capabilities. I wouldn't want to drive a 4wd braked hotted up XC V8
coupe with any vigor iethout long runoff areas :)

What makes them a marginal braking car nowadays is all the other cars
on the road have superior braking capability
Jason James - 28 Sep 2003 20:42 GMT
> >to admit they were suss which leads me to think they are infamous for being
> >marginal,....but not according to Athol and some others.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> What makes them a marginal braking car nowadays is all the other cars
> on the road have superior braking capability

Aye,...I get the picture:-) I'm a happt chappy that they are now BACK to
their normal shithouse self!

Jason
atec77>> - 28 Aug 2003 22:51 GMT
wouldn't an additional vacuum tank be useful , after of course
establishing the viability of the booster at at least factory
performance ?

> But any twenty year old crossflow 250 with passable rings that doesn't blow
> to much smoke will still get a good 18 to 20 inches at idle. And a good 25
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Hope this helps,
> Peter

Signature

 Unix Rules... help your mates and introduce them.

Eddie O'Brien - 15 Sep 2003 11:44 GMT
> wouldn't an additional vacuum tank be useful , after of course
> establishing the viability of the booster at at least factory
> performance ?
>
> "snip"

Hi Jason, I'm coming into this discussion rather late, but from what I've
read thus far, you seem to be trying all angles.
As Atec said, look at adding a secondary vacuum tank, a'la XF and see how
that goes.
The V8, especially if she has a bit of a cam, will tend to lose a bit of
vacuum when you've hit the brakes quite hard
and used your supply up. The interior ventilation controls will also eat
vacuum if you have a leak in the system piepwork too.

Most Z / F series Fairlanes and LTDs I've been in have pulled up superbly,
and I find it odd that you're having so many troubles.
The FD / FE were markedly improved over the FC, when you consider the
upgrade with the XE spec calipers front and rear.
My old XE wagon, fully loaded with people. gear, and a 351 and assorted LTD
refinements would pull up very well, even with
the original 6 cyl spec drumbies on the back.
Mind you, it would only be good for a couple of decent stops!

Others have said that the brakes fitted to the big Fords were only marginal,
and I suppose this is true, but I tend to err on the 'better' side of
marginal, rather than the worse.
Perhaps someone may recall the spec's used on the Police chaser cars, as
they were improved from memory.
I think for the application you are seeking, it may be best to go to
something more after market, but even then, I would consider the slotted
rotors that others have suggested. I'd tend to steer cleer of the harder or
'sportier' grade pads, as I'd prefer to replace the pads rather than the
more expensive rotors.
That's just me though, as I'd get sick of changing wheel bearings and seals
each time.

As for factory improvements, try the following if you haven't already, (I
'spose you've probably heard of some of these anyway!)
1. Look at the integrity of the mater cylinder mounting at the firewall, and
also th condition of the pedal box. They DO flex as others have stated.
2. Double check to see that you DO have a V8 spec booster and master
cylinder. I 'm sure the master cylinder may be the same, but I think the
booster for a V8 is definately a larger diameter that the 6.
3. Upgrade to the XE spec calipers front and rear.
4. Use a good quality brake fluid, flush it out more regulalry if you intend
doing decent stops often. Brake fluid degrades with heat.
5. I'm unsure of this, but check also that you have the correct brake bias
spring fitted inside your master cylinder, there are different ones I
believe. I do know that the disc/disc spec is different to disc/drum, and
it's possible that you may have, or have been sold the incorrect one at some
stage.

See how you go mate, keep us posted!
Regards, Eddie.

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