Car Forum / Ford / Ford Focus / June 2004
Oil vs Oil Change
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James - 07 Jun 2004 03:11 GMT Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil changes?
I do my own oil change so there is no charge for labor. For the some money I can either change oil and filter 3 times with with cheap oil or once with expensive oil.
Does clean oil give you better mileage?
Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?
Mark Olson - 07 Jun 2004 03:25 GMT > Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil > changes? I believe the answer is: 'it depends'...
> I do my own oil change so there is no charge for labor. For the some > money I can either change oil and filter 3 times with with cheap oil > or once with expensive oil. There is a third path for the same money- use a high quality conventional oil and change it twice as often as synthetic.
> Does clean oil give you better mileage? Not that you could measure.
> Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself? Absolutely not.
Follow the manufacturer's recommendations for frequency of oil changes and stick to the viscosity and grade of oil the manual recommends for the temperatures and the conditions that you drive under.
More frequent changes are not bad, but they aren't necessary for long engine life.
Check what the manual says are conditons that qualify for 'severe service'. Chances are at some times your typical usage will fall into that category for one or more reasons. Severe service intervals are much shorter than the standard service interval.
The one thing that would make me use synthetic is needing to start the engine in extreme cold conditions without a block heater.
per - 07 Jun 2004 16:46 GMT > Follow the manufacturer's recommendations for frequency of oil changes and > stick to the viscosity and grade of oil the manual recommends for the > temperatures and the conditions that you drive under. The manufacturer's recommendations for frequency of oil changes may have other than technical motivations: E.g. in the USA people are used to oil changes every 3000 miles and will totally mistrust change intervals upwards 20.000 to 30.000 miles which sometimes is recommended with long life synthetics in Europe. On the other hand, fleet managers and also private car drivers in Europe would absolutely not accept intervals of 3000-5000 miles with the expensive oils they sell here. Therefore car manufaturers like Ford have different oil change intervals for identical engines in Europe and USA! Further, the viscosity recommendation may be different in Europe and USA. Like 5W30 in Europe and 5W20 in the USA for the same Zetec 2 litre engine... /per
Paul Giverin - 07 Jun 2004 09:30 GMT >Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil >changes? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself? I would certainly use a good oil rather than a cheap oil. Synthetic is best suited to high performance engines or if you are constantly running your engine at or near the limit. For your average type of everyday driving, a "good quality" mineral oil will do.
If you are using the car for a lot of short journeys where the engine doesn't always warm up properly, you should consider changing the oil more frequently than recommended by Ford. My average journey is 35 miles and I still change my oil every 6,000 miles. This may or may not be overcautious but I intend keeping the car for a long time and if I do have problems with the engine, it won't be for the lack of maintenance. The extra oil and filter change only cost me about £20/year so it's not a big deal for me.
 Signature Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk
Tim \(Remove NOSPAM. - 07 Jun 2004 14:52 GMT > Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil > changes? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself? Personnally I'd rather change the oil at half the recommended interval, and use a good quality SH or SJ rated mineral oil of the right viscoity (5w-30 for most fords now) rather than use a synthetic costing probably more than twice that of the mineral oil yet not being upto the job of going twice the distance.
I change it at 5k / ~5month intervals in my Focus, which is at a point where its just turned dark brown and smells of "combustion" residue.
If you want an engine to do a big mileage, there is just no substitute for regular fresh clean oil.
Tim..
Dave Gower - 07 Jun 2004 16:18 GMT > Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil > changes? There are only two conditions under which synthetic oil provides an advantage
a) very cold weather, where synthetic remains more fluid and allows easier starting (useful here in Ontario)
b) very severe hot conditions, such as racetracks in Arizona in July.
Other than that, synthetic is just a waste of money. Some brands do advertise longer change intervals, but to me that's a crock. Synthetic oil may last longer than regular oil, but it gets dirty just as fast.
The point is, that if you change oil sensibly, your car will probably go to the crusher before the engine wears out. So any technical advantage of synthetic is irrelevant.
Had One - 08 Jun 2004 01:48 GMT I disagree with most all of you. Syn oil does give better mileage, does last longer, and produces less wear on engine parts. Research it yourself. At work I have a good url I will post tomorrow for all to look at. And as for oil being cheap or expense depending where you live it is not a renewable resource. Waste it now and your kids might not have any. I say use it to the max. At least as long as the manufacture recommends.
Good comments about longer interval in some countries than other countries.
Had One
> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil > changes? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself? Paul Giverin - 08 Jun 2004 08:39 GMT >I disagree with most all of you. Syn oil does give better mileage, does >last longer, and produces less wear on engine parts. Research it yourself. >At work I have a good url I will post tomorrow for all to look at. I had a look at the link you posted and it does not back up your claims. The tests that they are running are comparing synth v synth and not synth v mineral.
> And as >for oil being cheap or expense depending where you live it is >not a >renewable resource. Waste it now and your kids might not have any. The amount of oil used for oil changes is negligible compared to the amount wasted by using large engines which use an enormous quantity of fuel. Do we really need a 5.7 litre engine in a two seater Camaro like the one in your link?
>I say >use it to the max. At least as long as the manufacture recommends. There is a suspicion, certainly in Europe, that the manufacturers set a long service interval to attract the business of the fleet buyers which account for over 40% of new car sales. The fleet buyers want to keep the cost of servicing down and then normally sell the cars after three years, long before the effects of any poor maintenance are felt.
 Signature Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk
Josef Erbs - 08 Jun 2004 14:47 GMT Hi
>> And as >> for oil being cheap or expense depending where you live it is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fuel. Do we really need a 5.7 litre engine in a two seater Camaro like > the one in your link? That´s the point. Here in Europe we have smaler engines in our cars and look, we are still driving. Specialy here in Germany, where there is no general speed limit on highways, we have small engines with about 1.6 up to 2.5 litres, an they are very fast. No need for 5.7 litres engines at all.
>> I say >> use it to the max. At least as long as the manufacture recommends. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the cost of servicing down and then normally sell the cars after three > years, long before the effects of any poor maintenance are felt. Here I disagree. There are the other 60% of carowners that use the cars for as long as they run and there is no sufficient amount of cars that have broken engines because of the long service interval for oil changes. There is the possibility too to use special oil filters so that you can leave the oil for as long as 100,000 Km in your car filtering all debries out of the oil circuit. You only need to clean the filter. The modern oils don´t get older that quick, its just the ammount of debries that forces you to change it in smaller intervals. This is well tested for over 15 years. I myself use my car for only about 6000Km a year and therefor change the oil every two years, not every year like Ford recommendes. Thats only to let you go to your Ford service station to let them get Your money every year. I use a good mineral oil. If I would use a synthetic one, I would change it only every three years. As one of my teachers, an ingeneer with his focus on oils and grease and that stuff, said, modern motor oils do not get older as quick as they did 20 years ago.
bye Jupp
Gary Compton - 17 Jun 2004 03:28 GMT Does anyone know where Wal-Mart gets their store brand synthetic oil or who makes it? The container claims that it is made from 100% synthetic base products, which would seem to indicate it is a true synthetic as apposed to Castrol's claim of !00% synthetic, which (I have read) is really a specially refined mineral oil.
> >I disagree with most all of you. Syn oil does give better mileage, does > >last longer, and produces less wear on engine parts. Research it yourself. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the cost of servicing down and then normally sell the cars after three > years, long before the effects of any poor maintenance are felt. John Shk - 19 Jun 2004 09:22 GMT Some use Mobil some use Kendall.
Try to use Mobil one or Amsol and now I use Redline. All are good oils, but the thing is change your oil at least three times a year. And, use a good grease. Ford grease sucks big time. And tghe ATF fluid is the worst. Use a good fluid. I like amsoil full synthetic ATF. Grease -- rear wheel bearings -- first get the bearing cryo-hardened. And the same with front rotors. Try -- The Brake MAN in Camrillo, CA. You can repack the rear wheel bearings in the focus -- it's hard but can be done.
Also, spark plugs -- use Bosch platinum plus 4's good plug. fuel additive? Try Redline synthetic fuel additive -- better MPG's.
J.
> Does anyone know where Wal-Mart gets their store brand synthetic oil or who > makes it? The container claims that it is made from 100% synthetic base [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > > > British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk Dave Gower - 09 Jun 2004 03:29 GMT > I disagree with most all of you. With respect, this topic has been debated repeatedly on many newsgroups. You are very much in the minority, especially among professionals (I am not one, but I know whose technical knowledge impresses me).
> Good comments about longer interval in some countries than other countries. That's a related topic. Here in North America Ford recommends normal changes at 3000 miles or 5000 km. That's quite normal for manufacturers. I have seen technical reports published on such websites as Science Daily that say that this is far too often if one drives fairly gently. It's just a waste of money (and oil, to the extent it's not recycled). Since I normally drive in the country, and on paved roads at fairly modest speeds, I have decided to change every 10000 km. I told my dealer about it and they just shrug.
I do use synthetic oil in winter, for easier starting, but decent grade mineral oil other seasons. Cheers.
per - 09 Jun 2004 19:57 GMT > > I disagree with most all of you. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I do use synthetic oil in winter, for easier starting, but decent grade > mineral oil other seasons. Cheers. The recommended oil change interval for Ford Zetec 2 litre engines in Europe is 20000 km (12500miles). /per
TODD DAVIS - 09 Jun 2004 23:28 GMT My 2 cents worth
I own a '92 For F-150, 4x4, 5.0, and 185,000 miles on the original engine. I recently had to replace the oil pan due to the gasket separating. Once I had access to the bottom of the engine, I decided to see how well synthetic oil was treating the connecting rod bearings. I pulled the one farthest away from the oil pump to get a true gauge of what was going on. The bearing looked brand new, no signs of wear at all. Even my friend, who is a outstanding mechanic was shocked at how well the bearing was holding up after all those miles. This truck has seem many miles pulling a 5000lbs Boat/trailer combo. The truck is far from babied. My friend would tease me a little about using that expensive oil. Now he sees why.
I am using the same synthetic oil in my '01 ZX3, and hope to have the same result.
Mark Olson - 09 Jun 2004 23:58 GMT > I own a '92 For F-150, 4x4, 5.0, and 185,000 miles on the original > engine. I recently had to replace the oil pan due to the gasket [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I am using the same synthetic oil in my '01 ZX3, and hope to have the > same result. Glad to hear synthetic is working for you.
However, your experience doesn't shed any light on what your engine's bearings might look like, had you used conventional oil instead. If changed regularly, quality conventional oil does a great job, too.
Discussions about oil are much like comparing the merits of one religion versus another...
Until my Focus developed a severe piston slap noise when cold at about 30k miles, I used Mobil 1 5W-30 exclusively, changed at least as often as the maintenance schedule recommends. I had another brand new car that I used Mobil 1 in from new, that one developed low oil pressure at idle, far sooner than it should have. I just haven't seen the miracle results with synthetic oil that would lead me to pay a whole lot extra for it.
John Shk - 30 Jun 2004 09:44 GMT I had a simular problem with zetec engines in the cold and we did some snooping in the piston area -- ford uses a very lose fitting -- about 0.004 to -0.006 " on the piston clearance -- not good to me. But, once I read about Redline, Amsoil and some racing guys showed off their engines, then I knew that 20-50W would be good in the summer, and 10-40W in the winter (down to 28 deg F.) But winter really cold, then I'd try 0-30w Amsoil Series 2000 or 5000 special oil. I'd hate to see some folks use Lucas super upper case oil -- it's like STP but with other additives, but some racers like to use it becasue it keep comrpession up. So, try it if you can afford it, but the best overall idea here is to change the oil a lot, some 3000 miles is okay, not the ford reccomended of 7500 miles, and please use a good synthetic -- pick one you like. Also, don't forget the auto-tranny and manual tranny, please greases. Also, the Ford fuel pumps, I just found out, really sucks -- it is voltage dependant, and needs lube -- i.e. oil in the gas style. I use Redline synthetic fuel additive. Good stuff.
anyway,
John,.
> > I own a '92 For F-150, 4x4, 5.0, and 185,000 miles on the original > > engine. I recently had to replace the oil pan due to the gasket [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > results with synthetic oil that would lead me to pay a whole lot extra > for it. Hank G. - 30 Jun 2004 20:27 GMT How often do you change your synthetic oil?
> My 2 cents worth > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I am using the same synthetic oil in my '01 ZX3, and hope to have the > same result. Had One - 08 Jun 2004 02:08 GMT Here is the link
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
Had one
> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil > changes? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself? James - 10 Jun 2004 22:00 GMT > Here is the link > > http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html > > Had one Maybe I should just change my oil filter twice a year and oil once a year. That way I would get rid of dirt in the filter and refresh additives in the new oil added.
Mitchel Cline - 10 Jun 2004 21:14 GMT James, I can relate some experience with the subject of your question, and have asked myself the same question in the past. At one point in my life I was driving 70K+ miles a year. At that time, I was using parafine (regular oil) based lubricant. I would change oil and filters every 3,000 miles. Invarialbly after 100K miles, I would experience some increase in oil consumption. Not unusual or anything to worry about with a 100K+ engine. Worn valve guides alone could account for some increase. What I did notice however via the tailpipe was an increase in oil residue, a clear indication that some oil was getting past the rings. About ten years ago, I replaced the head gaskets on a Ford 3.8L six that had blown the gasket on the right bank. This particular engine was notorious for losing head gaskets. In visiting the shop doing the work, I was dismayed by the amount of crud that had accumalated in the valve cover gaskets, and around the lifters. My mechanic suggested that I switch to synthetic (Mobil 1) to elimiinate the problem. He also explained to me that most wear on any engine takes place it the first 15 seconds after start up. That's usually the amount of time required for your oil to be pumped through all the journals and get to the top of your engine in full operational quantity. Until then, your internal parts are reciprocating with minimal lubrication that was left from your oil residue the last time you shut off your engine. This is where synthetic becomes important. The residue of synthetic has far superior lubrication and viscosity properties than regular oil, allowing more protection until the pump brings more to the top of the engine. Second, synthetic maintains viscous properties at far lower temperatures than any petroleum based oil and will be pumped to the top of the engine and flow through those journals much quicker. Third, synthetic maintains protective lubrication properties at far higher temperatures than regular oil, and will not leave deposits (crud) on the top side of your engine when heated to extremes. Since the day my mechanic talked me into synthetic, I have used nothing else, and have taken three vehicles well over 200K miles with not one internal failure, including timing chains, no loss in compression, nor any increase in oil consumption. One note of caution. I would not use synthetic in a brand new engine. Reason? Even with todays CNC close tolerances, there is still a "seating" period every engine must go through. Synthetic oil offers such high levels of lubrication, that this "seating" may take much longer (if ever) and I would recommend you wait until the vehicle has somewhere around 12K miles. Oh, by the way, I change oil and filter every 6,000 now instead of every 3,000. I know the synthetic manufacturers say you can go much longer, but oil life is not the issue, dirt is. No matter how good the oil, you are still going to suck a certain amount of dirt past your filter and into the engine. I figure by doubling my time interval to 6,000 miles I am paying nearly the same as regular oil every 3,000, and enjoying the benefit of far superior protection at the same time. Good luck.
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