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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Focus / June 2004

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Oil vs Oil Change

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James - 07 Jun 2004 03:11 GMT
Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
changes?

I do my own oil change so there is no charge for labor.  For the some
money I can either change oil and filter 3 times with with cheap oil
or once with expensive oil.

Does clean oil give you better mileage?

Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?
Mark Olson - 07 Jun 2004 03:25 GMT
> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
> changes?

I believe the answer is: 'it depends'...

>  I do my own oil change so there is no charge for labor.  For the some
> money I can either change oil and filter 3 times with with cheap oil
> or once with expensive oil.

There is a third path for the same money- use a high quality conventional
oil and change it twice as often as synthetic.

> Does clean oil give you better mileage?

Not that you could measure.

> Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?

Absolutely not.

Follow the manufacturer's recommendations for frequency of oil changes and
stick to the viscosity and grade of oil the manual recommends for the
temperatures and the conditions that you drive under.

More frequent changes are not bad, but they aren't necessary for long engine
life.

Check what the manual says are conditons that qualify for 'severe service'.
Chances are at some times your typical usage will fall into that category for
one or more reasons.  Severe service intervals are much shorter than the
standard service interval.

The one thing that would make me use synthetic is needing to start the engine
in extreme cold conditions without a block heater.
per - 07 Jun 2004 16:46 GMT
> Follow the manufacturer's recommendations for frequency of oil changes and
> stick to the viscosity and grade of oil the manual recommends for the
> temperatures and the conditions that you drive under.

The manufacturer's recommendations for frequency of oil changes may have
other than technical motivations:
E.g. in the USA people are used to oil changes every 3000 miles and will
totally mistrust change intervals upwards 20.000 to 30.000 miles which
sometimes is recommended with long life synthetics in Europe.
On the other hand, fleet managers and also private car drivers in Europe
would absolutely not accept intervals of 3000-5000 miles with the expensive
oils they sell here.
Therefore car manufaturers like Ford have different oil change intervals for
identical engines in Europe and USA!
Further, the viscosity recommendation may be different in Europe and USA.
Like 5W30 in Europe and 5W20 in the USA for the same Zetec 2 litre engine...
/per
Paul Giverin - 07 Jun 2004 09:30 GMT
>Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
>changes?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?

I would certainly use a good oil rather than a cheap oil. Synthetic is
best suited to high performance engines or if you are constantly running
your engine at or near the limit. For your average type of everyday
driving, a "good quality" mineral oil will do.

If you are using the car for a lot of short journeys where the engine
doesn't always warm up properly, you should consider changing the oil
more frequently than recommended by Ford. My average journey is 35 miles
and I still change my oil every 6,000 miles. This may or may not be
overcautious but I intend keeping the car for a long time and if I do
have problems with the engine, it won't be for the lack of maintenance.
The extra oil and filter change only cost me about £20/year so it's not
a big deal for me.

Signature

Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website    http://www.britjet.co.uk

Tim \(Remove NOSPAM. - 07 Jun 2004 14:52 GMT
> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
> changes?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?

Personnally I'd rather change the oil at half the recommended interval, and
use a good quality SH or SJ rated mineral oil of the right viscoity (5w-30
for most fords now) rather than use a synthetic costing probably more than
twice that of the mineral oil yet not being upto the job of going twice the
distance.

I change it at 5k / ~5month intervals in my Focus, which is at a point where
its just turned dark brown and smells of "combustion" residue.

If you want an engine to do a big mileage, there is just no substitute for
regular fresh clean oil.

Tim..
Dave Gower - 07 Jun 2004 16:18 GMT
> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
> changes?

There are only two conditions under which synthetic oil provides an
advantage

a) very cold weather, where synthetic remains more fluid and allows easier
starting (useful here in Ontario)

b) very severe hot conditions, such as racetracks in Arizona in July.

Other than that, synthetic is just a waste of money. Some brands do
advertise longer change intervals, but to me that's a crock. Synthetic oil
may last longer than regular oil, but it gets dirty just as fast.

The point is, that if you change oil sensibly, your car will probably go to
the crusher before the engine wears out. So any technical advantage of
synthetic is irrelevant.
Had One - 08 Jun 2004 01:48 GMT
I disagree with most all of you.  Syn oil does give better mileage, does
last longer, and produces less wear on engine parts.  Research it yourself.
At work I have a good url I will post tomorrow for all to look at.  And as
for oil being cheap or expense depending where you live it is not a
renewable resource.  Waste it now and your kids might not have any.  I say
use it to the max.  At least as long as the manufacture recommends.

Good comments about longer interval in some countries than other countries.

Had One
> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
> changes?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?
Paul Giverin - 08 Jun 2004 08:39 GMT
>I disagree with most all of you.  Syn oil does give better mileage, does
>last longer, and produces less wear on engine parts.  Research it yourself.
>At work I have a good url I will post tomorrow for all to look at.

I had a look at the link you posted and it does not back up your claims.
The tests that they are running are comparing synth v synth and not
synth v mineral.

> And as
>for oil being cheap or expense depending where you live it is
>not a
>renewable resource.  Waste it now and your kids might not have any.

The amount of oil used for oil changes is negligible compared to the
amount wasted by using large engines which use an enormous quantity of
fuel. Do we really need a 5.7 litre engine in a two seater Camaro like
the one in your link?

>I say
>use it to the max.  At least as long as the manufacture recommends.

There is a suspicion, certainly in Europe, that the manufacturers set a
long service interval to attract the business of the fleet buyers which
account for over 40% of new car sales. The fleet buyers  want to keep
the cost of servicing down and then normally sell the cars after three
years, long before the effects of any poor maintenance are felt.

Signature

Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website    http://www.britjet.co.uk

Josef Erbs - 08 Jun 2004 14:47 GMT
Hi

>> And as
>> for oil being cheap or expense depending where you live it is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> fuel. Do we really need a 5.7 litre engine in a two seater Camaro like
> the one in your link?

That´s the point. Here in Europe we have smaler engines in our cars and
look, we are still driving.
Specialy here in Germany, where there is no general speed limit on
highways, we have small engines with about 1.6 up to 2.5 litres, an they
are very fast. No need for 5.7 litres engines at all.

>> I say
>> use it to the max.  At least as long as the manufacture recommends.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the cost of servicing down and then normally sell the cars after three
> years, long before the effects of any poor maintenance are felt.

Here I disagree. There are the other 60% of carowners that use the cars
for as long as they run and there is no sufficient amount of cars that
have broken engines because of the long service interval for oil changes.
There is the possibility too to use special oil filters so that you can
leave the oil for as long as 100,000 Km in your car filtering all
debries out of the oil circuit. You only need to clean the filter. The
modern oils don´t get older that quick, its just the ammount of debries
that forces you to change it in smaller intervals. This is well tested
for over 15 years.
I myself use my car for only about 6000Km a year and therefor change the
oil every two years, not every year like Ford recommendes. Thats only to
let you go to your Ford service station to let them get Your money every
year.
I use a good mineral oil. If I would use a synthetic one, I would change
it only every three years.
As one of my teachers, an ingeneer with his focus on oils and grease and
that stuff, said, modern motor oils do not get older as quick as they
did 20 years ago.

bye
Jupp
Gary Compton - 17 Jun 2004 03:28 GMT
Does anyone know where Wal-Mart gets their store brand synthetic oil or who
makes it?  The container claims that it is made from 100% synthetic base
products, which would seem to indicate it is a true synthetic as apposed to
Castrol's claim of !00% synthetic, which (I have read) is really a specially
refined mineral oil.

> >I disagree with most all of you.  Syn oil does give better mileage, does
> >last longer, and produces less wear on engine parts.  Research it yourself.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> the cost of servicing down and then normally sell the cars after three
> years, long before the effects of any poor maintenance are felt.
John Shk - 19 Jun 2004 09:22 GMT
Some use Mobil   some use Kendall.

Try to use  Mobil one or  Amsol  and now I use  Redline.
All are good oils, but the thing is  change your oil at least three times a
year.
And, use a good grease.  Ford grease sucks big time.  And tghe ATF fluid
is the worst.  Use a good fluid.   I like  amsoil full synthetic ATF.
Grease -- rear wheel bearings -- first  get the bearing  cryo-hardened.
And the same with front rotors.  Try --  The Brake MAN  in Camrillo, CA.
You can repack the rear wheel bearings in the focus -- it's hard but can be
done.

Also, spark plugs -- use  Bosch platinum plus 4's  good plug.
fuel additive?  Try  Redline synthetic fuel additive -- better MPG's.

J.

> Does anyone know where Wal-Mart gets their store brand synthetic oil or who
> makes it?  The container claims that it is made from 100% synthetic base
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> >
> > British Jet Engine Website    http://www.britjet.co.uk
Dave Gower - 09 Jun 2004 03:29 GMT
> I disagree with most all of you.

With respect, this topic has been debated repeatedly on many newsgroups. You
are very much in the minority, especially among professionals (I am not one,
but I know whose technical knowledge impresses me).

> Good comments about longer interval in some countries than other countries.

That's a related topic. Here in North America Ford recommends normal changes
at 3000 miles or 5000 km. That's quite normal for manufacturers. I have seen
technical reports published on such websites as Science Daily that say that
this is far too often if one drives fairly gently. It's just a waste of
money (and oil, to the extent it's not recycled). Since I normally drive in
the country, and on paved roads at fairly modest speeds, I have decided to
change every 10000 km. I told my dealer about it and they just shrug.

I do use synthetic oil in winter, for easier starting, but decent grade
mineral oil other seasons. Cheers.
per - 09 Jun 2004 19:57 GMT
> > I disagree with most all of you.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I do use synthetic oil in winter, for easier starting, but decent grade
> mineral oil other seasons. Cheers.

The recommended oil change interval for Ford Zetec 2 litre engines in Europe
is 20000 km (12500miles).
/per
TODD DAVIS - 09 Jun 2004 23:28 GMT
My 2 cents worth

I own a '92 For F-150, 4x4, 5.0, and 185,000 miles on the original
engine.   I recently had to replace the oil pan due to the gasket
separating.   Once I had access to the bottom of the engine, I decided
to see how well synthetic oil was treating the connecting rod bearings.
I pulled the one farthest away from the oil pump to get a true gauge of
what was going on.    The bearing looked brand new, no signs of wear at
all.   Even my friend, who is a outstanding mechanic was shocked at how
well the bearing was holding up after all those miles.  This truck has
seem many miles pulling a 5000lbs Boat/trailer combo.  The truck is far
from babied.    My friend would tease me a little about using that
expensive oil.   Now he sees why.

I am using the same synthetic oil in my '01 ZX3, and hope to have the
same result.

       
Mark Olson - 09 Jun 2004 23:58 GMT
> I own a '92 For F-150, 4x4, 5.0, and 185,000 miles on the original
> engine.   I recently had to replace the oil pan due to the gasket
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I am using the same synthetic oil in my '01 ZX3, and hope to have the
> same result.

Glad to hear synthetic is working for you.

However, your experience doesn't shed any light on what your engine's
bearings might look like, had you used conventional oil instead.  If
changed regularly, quality conventional oil does a great job, too.

Discussions about oil are much like comparing the merits of one religion
versus another...

Until my Focus developed a severe piston slap noise when cold at about
30k miles, I used Mobil 1 5W-30 exclusively, changed at least as often
as the maintenance schedule recommends.  I had another brand new car
that I used Mobil 1 in from new, that one developed low oil pressure at
idle, far sooner than it should have.  I just haven't seen the miracle
results with synthetic oil that would lead me to pay a whole lot extra
for it.
John Shk - 30 Jun 2004 09:44 GMT
I had a simular problem with zetec engines in the cold and we did some
snooping in
the piston area --  ford uses a very lose fitting -- about 0.004 to -0.006 "
on the piston clearance -- not good to me.  But, once I read about
Redline, Amsoil and some racing guys showed off their engines, then I knew
that
20-50W would be good in the  summer, and 10-40W in the winter (down to 28 deg
F.)
But winter really cold, then I'd try  0-30w  Amsoil Series 2000 or 5000
special oil.
I'd hate to see some folks use  Lucas super upper case oil -- it's like STP
but with
other additives, but some racers like to use it becasue it keep comrpession
up.
So, try it if you can afford it, but the best overall idea here is to change
the oil a lot,
some 3000 miles is okay, not the ford reccomended of 7500 miles, and please
use a good synthetic -- pick one you like.
Also, don't forget the auto-tranny and  manual tranny, please greases.
Also, the Ford fuel pumps, I just found out, really sucks -- it is voltage
dependant, and needs lube -- i.e.  oil in the gas style.
I use  Redline synthetic fuel additive.  Good stuff.

anyway,

John,.

> > I own a '92 For F-150, 4x4, 5.0, and 185,000 miles on the original
> > engine.   I recently had to replace the oil pan due to the gasket
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> results with synthetic oil that would lead me to pay a whole lot extra
> for it.
Hank G. - 30 Jun 2004 20:27 GMT
How often do you change your synthetic oil?

> My 2 cents worth
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I am using the same synthetic oil in my '01 ZX3, and hope to have the
> same result.
Had One - 08 Jun 2004 02:08 GMT
Here is the link

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

Had one

> Is you money better spent in buying synthetic oil or in more oil
> changes?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Does synthetic improve mileage that it pays for itself?
James - 10 Jun 2004 22:00 GMT
> Here is the link
>
> http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
>
> Had one

Maybe I should just change my oil filter twice a year and oil once a
year.  That way I would get rid of dirt in the filter and refresh
additives in the new oil added.
Mitchel Cline - 10 Jun 2004 21:14 GMT
James,
I can relate some experience with the subject of your question, and have
asked myself the same question in the past. At one point in my life I was
driving 70K+ miles a year. At that time, I was using parafine (regular oil)
based lubricant. I would change oil and filters every 3,000 miles.
Invarialbly after 100K miles, I would experience some increase in oil
consumption. Not unusual or anything to worry about with a 100K+ engine.
Worn valve guides alone could account for some increase. What I did notice
however via the tailpipe was an increase in oil residue, a clear indication
that some oil was getting past the rings. About ten years ago, I replaced
the head gaskets on a Ford 3.8L six that had blown the gasket on the right
bank. This particular engine was notorious for losing head gaskets. In
visiting the shop doing the work, I was dismayed by the amount of crud that
had accumalated in the valve cover gaskets, and around the lifters. My
mechanic suggested that I switch to synthetic (Mobil 1) to elimiinate the
problem. He also explained to me that most wear on any engine takes place it
the first 15 seconds after start up. That's usually the amount of time
required for your oil to be pumped through all the journals and get to the
top of your engine in full operational quantity. Until then, your internal
parts are reciprocating with minimal lubrication that was left from your oil
residue the last time you shut off your engine. This is where synthetic
becomes important. The residue of synthetic has far superior lubrication and
viscosity properties than regular oil, allowing more protection until the
pump brings more to the top of the engine. Second, synthetic maintains
viscous properties at far lower temperatures than any petroleum based oil
and will be pumped to the top of the engine and flow through those journals
much quicker. Third, synthetic maintains protective lubrication properties
at far higher temperatures than regular oil, and will not leave deposits
(crud) on the top side of your engine when heated to extremes. Since the day
my mechanic talked me into synthetic, I have used nothing else, and have
taken three vehicles well over 200K miles with not one internal failure,
including timing chains, no loss in compression, nor any increase in oil
consumption. One note of caution. I would not use synthetic in a brand new
engine. Reason? Even with todays CNC close tolerances, there is still a
"seating" period every engine must go through. Synthetic oil offers such
high levels of lubrication, that this "seating" may take much longer (if
ever) and I would recommend you wait until the vehicle has somewhere around
12K miles. Oh, by the way, I change oil and filter every 6,000 now instead
of every 3,000. I know the synthetic manufacturers say you can go much
longer, but oil life is not the issue, dirt is. No matter how good the oil,
you are still going to suck a certain amount of dirt past your filter and
into the engine. I figure by doubling my time interval to 6,000 miles I am
paying nearly the same as regular oil every 3,000, and enjoying the benefit
of far superior protection at the same time. Good luck.
 
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