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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / April 2008

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Second Heater Core

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Mike Coel - 14 Mar 2008 05:55 GMT
Yep, it's that time again, 147k miles, 1993 5.0
dripping out the green stuff by firewall on the ground
that strong sent of antifreeze inside the car
that dense fog on the inside of the front windshield above the vent.
no full temp on the temp gauge
Can't drive it this way, I get gassed.
guess I get to be a few hundred bucks lighter,
Second heater core, other went out at 95k
Michael Johnson - 14 Mar 2008 12:24 GMT
> Yep, it's that time again, 147k miles, 1993 5.0
> dripping out the green stuff by firewall on the ground
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> guess I get to be a few hundred bucks lighter,
> Second heater core, other went out at 95k

Do yourself a favor and buy the core from the Ford dealer because they
are made much better than the ones sold by the chain auto parts stores.
Jan Andersson - 14 Mar 2008 16:47 GMT
>> Yep, it's that time again, 147k miles, 1993 5.0
>> dripping out the green stuff by firewall on the ground
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Do yourself a favor and buy the core from the Ford dealer because they
> are made much better than the ones sold by the chain auto parts stores.

The kind of Ford quality where they fail before 100k? :)
Michael Johnson - 14 Mar 2008 16:49 GMT
>>> Yep, it's that time again, 147k miles, 1993 5.0
>>> dripping out the green stuff by firewall on the ground
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> The kind of Ford quality where they fail before 100k? :)

That is better than failing at 50k which is what his replacement core
managed to achieve. ;)
Joe - 14 Mar 2008 17:18 GMT
Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:

>>>> Yep, it's that time again, 147k miles, 1993 5.0
>>>> dripping out the green stuff by firewall on the ground
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> That is better than failing at 50k which is what his replacement core
> managed to achieve. ;)

My '93's original core is still fine @ 149k - original hoses also
intact.  Guess I should knock on some wood...
Michael Johnson - 14 Mar 2008 17:56 GMT
> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> My '93's original core is still fine @ 149k - original hoses also
> intact.  Guess I should knock on some wood...

The Grim Reaper of heater cores is heading to your garage as I type this
post. ;)
Joe - 14 Mar 2008 23:14 GMT
>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> The Grim Reaper of heater cores is heading to your garage as I type this
> post. ;)

Michael, if it springs a leak between before the end of the month, I'm
going to hunt you down!
Michael Johnson - 15 Mar 2008 00:06 GMT
>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Michael, if it springs a leak between before the end of the month, I'm
> going to hunt you down!

Hell, you have probably never used the heater in that car!  Has the
temperature knob ever been turn off of stone cold?  After all you live
in the Sunshine state. ;)
Joe - 15 Mar 2008 03:17 GMT
>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> temperature knob ever been turn off of stone cold?  After all you live
> in the Sunshine state. ;)

Actually, we had it midway last Wednesday night (albeit with the a/c
on).  Rather cool (70 degrees) but muggy out, so we put the a/c on
outside air with the temp halfway between - dial pointing straight up.  
Perfect environment.
Michael Johnson - 15 Mar 2008 04:35 GMT
>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> outside air with the temp halfway between - dial pointing straight up.  
> Perfect environment.

Sounds like a virtual blizzard for Southern Florida. ;)
Joe - 15 Mar 2008 14:19 GMT
>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Sounds like a virtual blizzard for Southern Florida. ;)

This time of year the weather's pretty much perfect.  80 during the day
and 67 at night.  The mugginess was the unusual part.  And it's _South_
Florida btw.  This differentiates us from Southwest Florida (Naples/Ft.
Myers).
Gumby619 - 15 Mar 2008 16:21 GMT
>>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> Florida btw.  This differentiates us from Southwest Florida (Naples/Ft.
> Myers).

   My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced it. That
was at 107k miles. at 130k miles (less than a year later) I had to bypass it
because it was leaking again. When I pull out the replaced one I'm "hoping"
that its a used core they put in and not a new one...

Gumby619

Never buy a car at night when you are in a rush....
dwight - 15 Mar 2008 17:20 GMT
>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced it.
> That was at 107k miles. at 130k miles (less than a year later) I had to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Never buy a car at night when you are in a rush....

Yeah, heater cores are strange.

TFrog's failed right around 100,000 miles, I think, which is pretty damn
good for a heater core. (Joe, you're living on borrowed time.) But once the
first one went, it became a nightmare. Three different shops replaced the
heater core within about five years, and I'm convinced that it will never be
right again.

The first replacement lasted all of about 4 months, as I recall, and there
was no warranty on the labor - which is the huge bulk of the cost. That was
an aftermarket cheap-o special.

Of course, while they were in there, I also had them replace some dash
lights that had burned out...

dwight
www.tfrog.com
Joe - 16 Mar 2008 00:01 GMT
>>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced
>>    it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> Never buy a car at night when you are in a rush....

Good advice.

> Yeah, heater cores are strange.
>
> TFrog's failed right around 100,000 miles, I think, which is pretty
> damn good for a heater core. (Joe, you're living on borrowed time.)

In more ways than one.

> But once the first one went, it became a nightmare. Three different
> shops replaced the heater core within about five years, and I'm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> there was no warranty on the labor - which is the huge bulk of the
> cost. That was an aftermarket cheap-o special.

dwight, you already know this - ya gets what ya pay for.

> Of course, while they were in there, I also had them replace some dash
> lights that had burned out...
>
> dwight
> www.tfrog.com

None of my dash lights have ever burned out - they all still work fine.  
Even the light in the AOD shifter still works, as does the glove box
light.  The cruise control still works as well.

dwight, here's one for you: The driver's seat electric inflatable lumbar
support still works.
dwight - 16 Mar 2008 13:15 GMT
>>>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced
>>>    it.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> dwight, here's one for you: The driver's seat electric inflatable lumbar
> support still works.

Hmmm... Now you got me thinking if anything original on TFrog still works...

Maybe I should go out and test the air bag.

:()
WindsorFox<SS> - 16 Mar 2008 19:19 GMT
>>>>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced
>>>>    it.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> :()

   That's going to be an expensive test any way you do it.

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dwight - 17 Mar 2008 02:41 GMT
>>>>>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced
>>>>>    it.
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
>    That's going to be an expensive test any way you do it.

Nah. What's the book value on a '93 LX 5.0 hatchback. Two grand? Pfeh.

On second thought, I'll just keep believing that the air bag will deploy,
should I ever need it to.

I think the oil is still original, though. And the air in the tires.

dwight
Joe - 17 Mar 2008 12:25 GMT
>>>>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced
>>>>    it.
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
>:()

I did have to replace the air bag module behind the radio.  Got a
perfectly good used one from Tim (Musttanguy) a while ago, been fine
ever since.
Mike Coel - 16 Mar 2008 04:17 GMT
>>    My 97 gt had a bad core when I bought it used. The lot replaced it.
>> That was at 107k miles. at 130k miles (less than a year later) I had to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> dwight
> www.tfrog.com

I asked the guy to replace with original Ford part, and replace a bulb on
the dash.
Should have just bypassed the core till next winter when it gets cold.
ever find out what it takes to replace it in a 5.0 ?
it is a mess, the plastic case was not meant to be taken apart.
jonezzzman - 31 Mar 2008 06:58 GMT
>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> The Grim Reaper of heater cores is heading to your garage as I type this
> post. ;)

I heard somewhere that using tap water with the coolant causes premature
failure of the heater core.  Anyone know anything about this?  Is it
true your supposed to use distilled water or the premixed coolant?  I'm
getting ready to change a heater core in my 89 GT.

Thanks

Byron
Repairman - 31 Mar 2008 12:31 GMT
> I heard somewhere that using tap water with the coolant causes premature
> failure of the heater core.  Anyone know anything about this?  Is it true
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Byron

Minerals in hard tap water are the issue. I always use distilled to mix my
coolants.
Especially now with the long life 5/150 out today. Cheap insurance IMO
Michael Johnson - 31 Mar 2008 17:34 GMT
>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> true your supposed to use distilled water or the premixed coolant?  I'm
> getting ready to change a heater core in my 89 GT.

I have heard this both ways.  One is using tap water causes deposits and
using distilled water causes it to leach the metals like aluminum into
the water which, in turn, cause deposits to buildup.  Personally, I
think the key is to do regular changes of the coolant as antifreeze
contains chemicals to prevent scale buildup and corrosion.
Jan Andersson - 31 Mar 2008 17:45 GMT
>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> think the key is to do regular changes of the coolant as antifreeze
> contains chemicals to prevent scale buildup and corrosion.

Regular Maintenance?!?!?! Who'da thunk that! ;P
Michael Johnson - 31 Mar 2008 18:18 GMT
>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Regular Maintenance?!?!?! Who'da thunk that! ;P

There is generally a good reason that is should be "regular".
Jan Andersson - 31 Mar 2008 21:49 GMT
>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> There is generally a good reason that is should be "regular".

The typical american mentality with cars is to buy one, drive it to the
ground, bitch and moan when it breaks, then replace it with another.
Restart cycle.

Jan
Michael Johnson - 31 Mar 2008 22:55 GMT
>>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> ground, bitch and moan when it breaks, then replace it with another.
> Restart cycle.

I think people are much better overall but the manufacturers have
removed so many of the old maintenance requirements that if one just
changes the engine oil regularly they can get 100k+ miles from a
vehicle.  Throw in a little more maintenance and getting 150k-200k miles
is fairly routine.
Jan Andersson - 01 Apr 2008 01:18 GMT
>>>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> vehicle.  Throw in a little more maintenance and getting 150k-200k miles
> is fairly routine.

When consumer expectations are getting lower and lower, then poor
quality gets widely accepted... then it somehow becomes 'average'
quality, and then, eventually, the new standard. Over time, people
reluctantly accept that it's not going to get any better than this, be
it Ford, Chevy, or Volkswagen.  Manufacturers would be foolish to make
and sell products that are better, and last longer than expected. They
NEED their products to fail or become unwanted as soon as possible (just
short of getting a bad rep) so they can sell the next face lift model
to the same guy.

If you tried to sell a car 30 years ago that would last only 6 years,
you would have been lynched. Today a person who buys a new car, won't
see it's 4th birthday, they trade it in and it becomes someone else's
problem. Why even worry about preventative maintenance, you can't
justify a further monetary investment in something you won't keep long
enough to benefit from it. Just drive the sh.t out of it and pass it on
to some unsuspecting poor fool who will then struggle with the
inevitable breakdowns. You got what you wanted out of it.

Coincidentally, cars made 30, 40, and 50 years ago, are STILL on the
road. Some in great numbers even, and in decent mechanical shape. Often
with just as minimal maintenance. They were built to last a generation.
Even cars that were the 'economical and cheap' alternative of their day,
were designed tougher than most cars today. At some point some pencil
pusher figured out they can cut material costs by making parts weaker,
and subcontracting them to 3rd world countries.
Sure they started failing more often, but that's how 'modern,
complicated technology' is. <cough cough>. With time... sub-standard
sneaked it's way into becoming the new Standard.

Keep your new junk, gimme something from the 60's.
Michael Johnson - 01 Apr 2008 02:32 GMT
>>>>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
>
> Keep your new junk, gimme something from the 60's.

I can't agree with you on this.  The new cars we can buy today are light
years ahead of the old ones of my youth.  Back then you were lucky the
car wasn't a complete buck of rust by 100,000 miles.  In fact, having an
engine last 100,000 miles was not the norm.  Maintenance was much more
intensive, mileage worse and performance/reliability not even close to
the cars we have today.  Most cars sold now can easily hit 100k miles
and many are good for close to 200k miles if they are maintained well.
Compare the current Mustang GT to just about any early Mustang and the
difference is night and day regarding performance and reliability.
Jan Andersson - 01 Apr 2008 04:18 GMT
>>>>>>>>>> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:SO-
>>>>>>>>>> dnQNEA4HiA0fanZ2dnUVZ_qHinZ2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> Compare the current Mustang GT to just about any early Mustang and the
> difference is night and day regarding performance and reliability.

Most of the 80's cars are now gone. 70's cars are disappearing too. But
there's still 60's cars around, and even when not maintained very well,
are still kicking.

More maintenance? Old cars had 99% LESS parts that could go wrong.
Today, Microsoft is making operating systems for cars, fer chrissakes :D

If you have a mechanical fuel pump, a carburator, a basic points & coil
 kettering ignition, and a simple generator or an alternator even, you
were good to go. What else could go wrong?

Case example 1: The VW Beetle. Not the plastic Golf IV in drag, but the
real thing. 100k miles easy. 200k miles not uncommon. Heck, even a
poorly maintained piece of 1970 junk 1500 I had, made it past 250k, and
was finally laid to rest due to rust holes in the floorpan. The engine
lived on in another car. There were no signs of anyone ever rebuilding
it. (Every nut and bolt were rusted solid).

Case example 2: Well, this is an exception from the 80:s. The Mercedes.
Not uncommon at all to hear them go a MILLION miles. Granted, that would
usually mean an engine and tranny rebuild at some point.

3: Volvo has had models that easily made 500k and even close to a million.

4: Even my friend's Mitsubishi Lancer from the 80's got past 500k.

Come to the 90's, and I don't think they could. 2000, and I'm pretty
certain we won't see  'million mile' cars anymore. Mercedes quality has
gone down the drain years ago, they're living off of their legacy and
deserved good name they got in the years past.

Modern cars are packed full of useless junk that not only creates more
need for maintenance and potential breakdowns, it alienates the operator
from actual driving skills, and makes him a passenger with no brains,
rather than a driver.

I'm just ranting I guess, you do have a point.

I'm just so tired of where the industry has gone and how unexciting cars
have become. I can't remember seeing a new car that made me think : WOW,
I gotta get me one of those. I get that with cars older than myself.
(I'm a kiddie though, only 35)
Michael Johnson - 01 Apr 2008 13:21 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> More maintenance? Old cars had 99% LESS parts that could go wrong.
> Today, Microsoft is making operating systems for cars, fer chrissakes :D

There a few advantages to lower tech cars but they are far outweighed by
the advantages this technology brings regarding efficiency, longevity,
reliability, performance and convenience to modern vehicles.

> If you have a mechanical fuel pump, a carburator, a basic points & coil
>  kettering ignition, and a simple generator or an alternator even, you
> were good to go. What else could go wrong?

My first car ws a 1971 Nova with a 250 CI inline six.  It was about as
simple as they came.  I had plenty of issues with it.  Before it hit
100k miles it was rusting through, I rebuilt the head, it was a constant
battle to keep it in a good state of tune and the gas mileage wasn't all
that great.  It was fairly reliable though and never left me stranded
anywhere.

> Case example 1: The VW Beetle. Not the plastic Golf IV in drag, but the
> real thing. 100k miles easy. 200k miles not uncommon. Heck, even a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> 4: Even my friend's Mitsubishi Lancer from the 80's got past 500k.

Many foreign cars were built better than domestics.  Especially after
WWII.  The same still applies though that the modern versions of these
cars are much better in almost every way.

> Come to the 90's, and I don't think they could. 2000, and I'm pretty
> certain we won't see  'million mile' cars anymore. Mercedes quality has
> gone down the drain years ago, they're living off of their legacy and
> deserved good name they got in the years past.

The fact is 99.99% of driver wouldn't want to keep a car for a million
miles so that benchmark isn't worth much.  It would take a person over
66 years to put that many miles on a car driving at a rate of 15,000
miles per year.  Who would want to drive the same car for 66 years?
Your definition of quality is very narrow and when that definition is
broadened the new cars stack up very well against their predecessors.

> Modern cars are packed full of useless junk that not only creates more
> need for maintenance and potential breakdowns, it alienates the operator
> from actual driving skills, and makes him a passenger with no brains,
> rather than a driver.

Once again I disagree.  When I look at the crash worthiness of new cars
I am amazed at their quality.  Having air bags, self tensioning seat
belts, crumple zones, roll over protection etc. is invaluable, IMO.
Having the ability for a third party to know if you have crashed on a
deserted road and being able to send help directly to your location is a
wonderful thing.  Getting good mileage with very good performance is
another perk of applying technology.

We have had very good reliability from the newer cars.  The '94 T-Bird
we had went 190k miles until our son totaled it.  I have a '94 Explorer
with 186k miles that is still going strong.  The 2003 Sable we have has
90k miles and has been nearly trouble free.  It also delivers great
performance from its 3.0L DOHC V-6.  It handles fairly well too.  It is
an all around great car and we paid $18k for it brand new and it has
leather interior, sunroof and every option available for that year.

> I'm just ranting I guess, you do have a point.
>
> I'm just so tired of where the industry has gone and how unexciting cars
> have become. I can't remember seeing a new car that made me think : WOW,
> I gotta get me one of those. I get that with cars older than myself.
> (I'm a kiddie though, only 35)

There are plenty of exciting cars for sale.  There are performance
models of all varieties.  Look at the GT500.  It has more performance
than ANY Mustang ever produced and it is for sale TODAY, not during the
1960s.  There are four wheel drive, turbocharged subcompacts that will
perform as well as Corvettes of just a decade ago.  The Camaro is coming
back and we have a Challenger on the showroom floors.  I think if you
look around you will find a lot of performance and at all price points.
 Heck, even the current base Mustang has the same horsepower level as
the old 5.0L Fox cars.
Jan Andersson - 01 Apr 2008 15:30 GMT
> My first car ws a 1971 Nova with a 250 CI inline six.  It was about as
> simple as they came.  I had plenty of issues with it.  Before it hit
> 100k miles it was rusting through, I rebuilt the head, it was a constant
> battle to keep it in a good state of tune and the gas mileage wasn't all
> that great.  It was fairly reliable though and never left me stranded
> anywhere.

I have a 1970 Nova right now.. 230ci six, 2-speed auto tranny. 4 door
grandma car. Got it cheap, owner said there's nothing wrong with it...
well I found a hole and pieces missing from one piston and another one
headed the same way. The cheapest pistons I found were $8 a piece :D
I didn't get those.
6 new pistons later (and rod bearings, because the opportunity was
there), it was back on the road. Yes it has some rust issues.

> Many foreign cars were built better than domestics.  Especially after
> WWII.  The same still applies though that the modern versions of these
> cars are much better in almost every way.

Oh yea, I should have mentioned my european origins :) We don't think
very highly of american cars past the early 70's.

> The fact is 99.99% of driver wouldn't want to keep a car for a million
> miles so that benchmark isn't worth much.  It would take a person over
> 66 years to put that many miles on a car driving at a rate of 15,000
> miles per year.  Who would want to drive the same car for 66 years? Your
> definition of quality is very narrow and when that definition is
> broadened the new cars stack up very well against their predecessors.

Which brings me to the point I made earlier: the standards have changed.
 Lesser quality has become acceptable, and the norm.

> Once again I disagree.  When I look at the crash worthiness of new cars
> I am amazed at their quality.  Having air bags, self tensioning seat
> belts, crumple zones, roll over protection etc. is invaluable, IMO.
> Having the ability for a third party to know if you have crashed on a
> deserted road and being able to send help directly to your location is a
> wonderful thing.

All of the above give people a false sense of security, and somehow they
think they can drive like maniacs. (I live in Florida, come see how it
is down here). All the safety equipment and automated functions mean the
driver needs less and less driving skills, and when the time comes when
he needs them, they are not there.
VW studied and designed crumple zones in the 50's. :D

> Getting good mileage with very good performance is
> another perk of applying technology.

Mileage has not improved significantly for decades. Engine efficiency
may have, but the vehicles also got heavier (because of all the extra
junk), so you don't benefit from the efficiency.

> We have had very good reliability from the newer cars.  The '94 T-Bird
> we had went 190k miles until our son totaled it.  I have a '94 Explorer
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> an all around great car and we paid $18k for it brand new and it has
> leather interior, sunroof and every option available for that year.

You sound like a man who takes care of his cars.

> There are plenty of exciting cars for sale.  There are performance
> models of all varieties.  Look at the GT500.  It has more performance
> than ANY Mustang ever produced and it is for sale TODAY, not during the
> 1960s.

Kinda nice, but not exciting. I don't have strong feelings either way
about it. Still has solid rear axle, and no independent rear suspension?
No new mustang today has one? Why did they cheap out?

> There are four wheel drive, turbocharged subcompacts that will
> perform as well as Corvettes of just a decade ago.  

Yes, I'm still a member of a Subaru club even after selling my turbo
wagon. Friend had a 2004 STi. Nice car, but it too requires some
noticeable upgrades to start working as it 'should'. And at the end, you
still end up with a plastic tub that doesn't look any different from a
Corolla. Except for that god-ugly, ridiculous wing that just has to go :)

> The Camaro is coming back

Disappointed already. It looked ok in the few pics I saw early on, but
something is missing. I like the nose.

> and we have a Challenger on the showroom floors.

That at least looks good. I don't know it well enough to have formed an
opinion yet. I'm worried that they ruined it somehow anyway.

> I think if you
> look around you will find a lot of performance and at all price points.
> Heck, even the current base Mustang has the same horsepower level as
> the old 5.0L Fox cars.

Performance isn't everything though. I like it to look good inside and
out, handle well, be functional as a daily driver, and maybe even be
reliable.

Of course my last requirement make the above comnination impossible: I
want it cheap :)
Michael Johnson - 01 Apr 2008 17:04 GMT
>> My first car ws a 1971 Nova with a 250 CI inline six.  It was about as
>> simple as they came.  I had plenty of issues with it.  Before it hit
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> 6 new pistons later (and rod bearings, because the opportunity was
> there), it was back on the road. Yes it has some rust issues.

Mine had a two speed auto too.  You're bringing back memories.  Some are
fond ones and some aren't.

>> Many foreign cars were built better than domestics.  Especially after
>> WWII.  The same still applies though that the modern versions of these
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Which brings me to the point I made earlier: the standards have changed.
>  Lesser quality has become acceptable, and the norm.

How many miles are on that 1970 Nova you mentioned above?  Getting 100k
miles from the older cars was considered good.  Getting 100k miles from
a new car is a given and most likely 200k is more than reasonable.
Plus, the bodies of the new cars have much better rust protection and
the chassis can actually last long enough to run for 200k miles or for
several decades, whichever comes first.  The machining tolerances today
are much tighter than they were decades ago which adds to longevity.
Remember back in the day that many engines had to be blueprinted and
balanced to really make high rpm horsepower?  Today there are factory
motors spinning to 7k and beyond and lasting for a very long time doing it.

>> Once again I disagree.  When I look at the crash worthiness of new
>> cars I am amazed at their quality.  Having air bags, self tensioning
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> he needs them, they are not there.
> VW studied and designed crumple zones in the 50's. :D

The cars are getting so well made today that many fire and rescue
companies are finding their rescue equipment can't pry the doors lose or
cut through the steel.  They have to basically dismantle the car in
order to get to the occupants in many accidents.  The formulation of the
steel used in most cars today didn't even exist a decade ago.

>> Getting good mileage with very good performance is another perk of
>> applying technology.
>
> Mileage has not improved significantly for decades. Engine efficiency
> may have, but the vehicles also got heavier (because of all the extra
> junk), so you don't benefit from the efficiency.

Mileage has improved a great deal considering the horsepower produced.
One area I am surprised about it that they haven't made cars
significantly lighter.

>> We have had very good reliability from the newer cars.  The '94 T-Bird
>> we had went 190k miles until our son totaled it.  I have a '94
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You sound like a man who takes care of his cars.

I don't obsess over them at all.  I just perform basic maintenance.
This is all that is needed to get close to 200k out of about any new car
sold today.  When one looks at reliability and longevity there really
isn't much of a gap between vehicles nowadays across all price points.
They all can be run for around 200k or more with basic routine
maintenance.  In reality this is more lifespan than 99.9% of the drivers
need or want.

>> There are plenty of exciting cars for sale.  There are performance
>> models of all varieties.  Look at the GT500.  It has more performance
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> about it. Still has solid rear axle, and no independent rear suspension?
> No new mustang today has one? Why did they cheap out?

You can find just about whatever performance car you desire today.  They
can be inexpensive, basic drive trains, IRS rear wheel drive, four wheel
drive etc.  It is all available.

>> There are four wheel drive, turbocharged subcompacts that will perform
>> as well as Corvettes of just a decade ago.  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> still end up with a plastic tub that doesn't look any different from a
> Corolla. Except for that god-ugly, ridiculous wing that just has to go :)

... and a 1960s GTO was really just a Tempest with a few badges and hood
scoop.  At least the WRX has some real guts and the bones to make it a
really outstanding performer.

>> The Camaro is coming back
>
> Disappointed already. It looked ok in the few pics I saw early on, but
> something is missing. I like the nose.

Anyone that doesn't like the new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger but likes
the old muscle cars is just never going to be satisfied, IMO, with
anything new.  These cars are good looking and outperform their
predecessors by leaps and bounds.  Compare the new ZR1 Vette (Blue Devil
I believe) with ANYTHING in its past and it just literally stomps the
crap out of any previous model.

>> and we have a Challenger on the showroom floors.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Of course my last requirement make the above comnination impossible: I
> want it cheap :)

A Mustang GT will meet all of your goals.  It is reliable, performs very
well and is reasonably function as a daily driver.  Even gas mileage is
decent if you keep your foot out of it.  It sounds to me like it is your
personal taste regarding style that makes you dislike the new cars and
not necessarily their engineering and performance.
Jan Andersson - 01 Apr 2008 19:40 GMT
>> Which brings me to the point I made earlier: the standards have
>> changed.  Lesser quality has become acceptable, and the norm.
>
> How many miles are on that 1970 Nova you mentioned above?

Don't know. Too lazy to go look and I think the odometer rolls over at
99.999? Hmm. That would be an indicator that not much more was expected
of them... lol
Still, 38 years old and still runs ok and looks half decent. Everything
works. (after the piston swap, but it did run before that too)

> Getting 100k
> miles from the older cars was considered good.  Getting 100k miles from
> a new car is a given and most likely 200k is more than reasonable. Plus,
> the bodies of the new cars have much better rust protection and the
> chassis can actually last long enough to run for 200k miles or for
> several decades, whichever comes first.

Yea I suppose that's true.

> The machining tolerances today
> are much tighter than they were decades ago which adds to longevity.
> Remember back in the day that many engines had to be blueprinted and
> balanced to really make high rpm horsepower?  Today there are factory
> motors spinning to 7k and beyond and lasting for a very long time doing it.

Sloppy tolerances don't necessarily translate to poor longevity in my
mind. If an engine was designed for loose tolerances (dictated by mass
production limitations of yesteryear), then I'm sure it would last a
long time. Add low power output into the mix, and you get 300k engines
that just refuse to die. Old V8's, the VW beetle boxer, some 4-banger
diesel engines.. Not very sophisticated, not very powerful for the
displacement, but they take you from A to B for decades.

When you increase the power output and load, the wear and tear increases.

> The cars are getting so well made today that many fire and rescue
> companies are finding their rescue equipment can't pry the doors lose or
> cut through the steel.  They have to basically dismantle the car in
> order to get to the occupants in many accidents.  The formulation of the
> steel used in most cars today didn't even exist a decade ago.

I'm mostly familiar with old VW's. The factory apparently started using
noticeably more recycled steel in th elate 60's and early 70's. Those
cars are almost all total rustbuckets, structural rust damage
everywhere. 50's and 60's models, even non-hobbyist cars, are in much
better shape. 70's and 80's were bad... for european and japanese cars
at least. 90's wasn't that much better, but zinc plated body parts
started to make way into mass produced cars (Volvo, Audi, the higher end
vehicles first)

> Mileage has improved a great deal considering the horsepower produced.
> One area I am surprised about it that they haven't made cars
> significantly lighter.

Mileage stayed pretty much the same, give or take a little, and vehicle
performance stayed virtually unchanged. Weight increased, and the
improved fuel economy & horsepower covered the gap. I don't know where
the weight comes from, more steel and interior materials? Thicker glass?
All the 'new technology' that you now have to lug around with you?
There are a few exceptions in the family vehicle sector, some small
diesels get awesome mileage, a lot better than their comparable
predecessors. But we are still looking at 20-30 something MPG new
passenger cars, while 40mpg vehicles were available 40 years ago. It
takes a hybrid to get over 40 these days. Back to increased weight and
performance again :)  One would think that with all the modern
technology, we would know how to make parts out of lighter materials
without sacrificing strenght. Some attempts have been made (aluminum
trailing arms on VW passats etc. needed replacing after 20k and were
soon discontinued) but still the weights have increased by 50% easily
over the past 1-2 decades. (european and asian cars)

> Anyone that doesn't like the new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger but likes
> the old muscle cars is just never going to be satisfied, IMO, with
> anything new.

I guess I was born a generation or two too late :D
I do like the looks of the latest Mustang, more as time passes. The
challenger looks very very promising. The camaro sort of lacks
something, can't say what it is.

> A Mustang GT will meet all of your goals.  It is reliable, performs very
> well and is reasonably function as a daily driver.  Even gas mileage is
> decent if you keep your foot out of it.  It sounds to me like it is your
> personal taste regarding style that makes you dislike the new cars and
> not necessarily their engineering and performance.

Style makes a big difference yes. I don't like cars that disappear into
the gray mass the second you blink your eye. There are mechanically
interesting cars out there that do just that. Then there are nice
looking cars that leave room for improvement in the performance or
handling area, and that's a big disappointment too.

I have to admit that it's my personality to always try to improve on
something and make it more to my liking. Nothing is good enough right
off the showroom floor. Or used car lot, for that matter. I would modify
old classics just the same.

I guess you just can't please me. LOL
dwight - 01 Apr 2008 13:48 GMT
>snip anecdotal evidence<
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> gotta get me one of those. I get that with cars older than myself. (I'm a
> kiddie though, only 35)

Anecdotal evidence aside, the average car coming off of the average American
assembly line in the 1960s was a piece of junk the day it was built. Cars in
the 70s were worse.

Because the Japanese were kicking our collective butts, somewhere in the
1980s quality became Job One. And it wasn't until well into the 90s that the
Big Three finally got a handle on this whole quality thing.

The vast number of cars built today are aimed squarely at the mass market
driver, what I call point-and-shoot cars. Get in, start it up, drive to
work. In a few years, all of those ads and incentives convince these folks
to trade up to a new model. But, through innovation and government
regulation, these point-and-shoot cars are also designed to protect these
drivers from themselves. That's fine, since these folks aren't really into
motoring, they just want reliable transportation. And more air bags and
cupholders, apparently.

A very small minority actually likes cars. These people could have bought
any model from any year over the past five decades and kept it beautiful,
kept it running like a clock, and kept racking up the miles beyond 100,000
or 200,000 or much more. These are the cars that we see at shows, that we
see tooling down a back road on a sunny day. While the build quality of
previous decades was suspect at best, no car was built to fail within four,
five, or six years. Every car came with a little book that describes the
care and feeding of the animal, and owners ignore that little book at their
own expense.

I'm somewhere in between. I own two Fox Mustangs, both coming up on their
15th birthdays. Neither is a show car, both are daily drivers, neither is
babied. I have regular maintenance done, and when things break, they get
shop time. For whatever reason (that I still haven't fully figured out), I
am in love with this particular model/year and haven't yet been pursuaded to
trade up.

BUT... How can I argue with the new Corvette? How can I look at the new
Mustang GT, without getting goosebumps? I even see the attraction of the
Nissan Altima! Toyota has nothing that stirs my blood, nor Honda, but I'm
not their target market, am I?

There are a small number of cars built today that can get me excited, and
there have been times that I thought all cars like them would disappear
completely, given the rise of influence of the insurance and government
regulations. And now the growing Green forces threaten them even more with
extinction. Yet, for some reason, performance is growing across all lines,
with V6 engines putting out the power of V8s.

I have no doubt that any car built TODAY, in the hands of a caring owner,
could easily go 500,000 miles in the years to come. The sad truth is that
the bulk of new cars today will be recycled within ten to twenty years, just
as previous generations before them. It's the nature of consumables...

dwight
www.tfrog.com
 
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