Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / September 2004
Should Chevy bring back the Camaro?
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GoLeafs - 27 Sep 2004 20:18 GMT Hey Everyone,
With Chevy pulling out of the pony car race, Ford is free to do whatever it wants, with little or no competition. History shows that in order to keep up the quality and improvements on a product, competition has to exist. I am not saying that Ford has eased up on the quality or innovations of it's Mustang, but how long until they realize they are getting an easy ride.
With the new Mustang coming out in a few weeks, and the attention it is grabbing. Should Chevy and Pontiac re-think their f-body cars? What a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring them back after a few years break.
Snow - 27 Sep 2004 22:12 GMT With GM's track record of "reused" car names, I for one hope they leave the Camaro and Trans-am names buried. Just look at what they did to the following names Nova when re-introduced it was just a Toyota tercel Impala, Malibu, Monte Carlo they destroyed 3 of their best "street fighter" names with FWD sh.t. With the exception of the new GTO which is in fact an all Australian design GM is only good for rehashing the names forsakes of "brand familiararity". The next contender to enter or re-enter the pony car race will be Dodge, the Magnum wagon (and 300) is Dodge's re-entry not only into the RWD world, but also back into the big v8 powered car. Perhaps a generation 3 Charger is being planned?? (yeah they too destroyed that name in the 80's with those omni 2+2 things)
Snow...
> Hey Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > them back after a few years break. V'ger - 27 Sep 2004 22:55 GMT Personally, I wouldn't mind it if they brought it back, as long as they make it a "real" one. As for Ford not having competition... they have plenty.... from ricers to euros.
>With GM's track record of "reused" car names, I for one hope they leave the >Camaro and Trans-am names buried. Just look at what they did to the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring >> them back after a few years break. Entering into the unknown, V'ger seeks information used to maintain his Vintage Burgundy 1965 Ford Mustang 2+2 w/289 ci 4v oem A Code V8, C4 Trans, 16x8" Vintage 40 wheels, with BF Goodrich gForce T/A 225/50ZR16 tires, American Racing "Mustang" Centercaps, and a whole lot of other stuff; )
trainfan1 - 27 Sep 2004 23:46 GMT > With GM's track record of "reused" car names, I for one hope they leave the > Camaro and Trans-am names buried. Just look at what they did to the > following names > Nova when re-introduced it was just a Toyota tercel Corolla. It was actually a pretty decent vehicle for the $$. Let's see GM bring out a nice RWD Chevy II hot rod - a stripped GTO/Monaro?
Rob
Chief_Wiggum - 28 Sep 2004 00:02 GMT They'll bring it back... no doubt.
The whole thing is just a marketing stunt to sell more cars.
Phase 1.. Announce the demise of the Camaro.. Now there's a scurry among fans to get the freshest available, since they won't be around anymore. So they upgrade to current model, even though they may have otherwise waited a few years. Collectors scoop some up hoping to have a prize 10 or 20 years from now.
Phase 2. 2 or 3 years later, announce THE NEW 200x Camaro ! And everyone comes scrambling again.. Make sure there's lots of hubub about it, and keep the supply chain thin so that dealer gouging runs rampant.. Limit the options available since purists will buy whatever you throw at them.
Phase 3. The following model year (or 2) introduce some special models .. Z28's or Trans-Ams on the Pontiac side... up the HP, maybe add a ragtop, and entice some of the new model buyers that they AGAIN need to upgrade..
Yeah, it'll be back in a year or so... just watch!
> > With GM's track record of "reused" car names, I for one hope they leave the > > Camaro and Trans-am names buried. Just look at what they did to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rob 66 6F HCS - 28 Sep 2004 00:08 GMT > They'll bring it back... no doubt. See my posts...
 Signature Scott W. '66 Mustang HCS 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W '97 Cougar 30th Anniv SE 4.6L ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~scott.williams.613/
Brent P - 28 Sep 2004 00:40 GMT > Phase 2. 2 or 3 years later, announce THE NEW 200x Camaro ! And everyone > comes scrambling again.. Make sure there's lots of hubub about it, and > keep the supply chain thin so that dealer gouging runs rampant.. Limit the > options available since purists will buy whatever you throw at them. So you believe GM will copy ford's marketing ? :)
Chief_Wiggum - 28 Sep 2004 00:46 GMT Sure, why not..
It worked great for the ... uh.... ,,,.... um....
Oh yeah, what year did they stop making the Mustang and then re-introduce it again ? My memory is a little fuzzy :)
> > Phase 2. 2 or 3 years later, announce THE NEW 200x Camaro ! And everyone > > comes scrambling again.. Make sure there's lots of hubub about it, and > > keep the supply chain thin so that dealer gouging runs rampant.. Limit the > > options available since purists will buy whatever you throw at them. > > So you believe GM will copy ford's marketing ? :) Brent P - 28 Sep 2004 02:53 GMT > Sure, why not.. > > It worked great for the ... uh.... ,,,.... um.... > > Oh yeah, what year did they stop making the Mustang and then re-introduce it > again ? My memory is a little fuzzy :) Ford isn't above such a trick... Tbird anyone? ;)
Although the part I quoted with regard to manufactured 'rarity'... That's the part of ford marketing I was refering to....
Oh, and ford wanted to replace the mustang with a FWD car for 1989...
My guess is any new camaro will be some fwd hunk of crap like all the other reborn nameplates of recent years....
Chief_Wiggum - 28 Sep 2004 04:48 GMT Well, I don't think the T-Bird was a calculated move.. Besides how's *that* workin' out for them ? They can't give the underpowered, overpriced golf carts away LOL! But sales of the ol' bird were hardly stellar, so it was really a no-brainer to kill it off.
The Camaro, while maybe slipping some, was still a viable seller.
But, sure... Ford (or any other company ) wouldn't be above such shenanagins..
I doubt the Camaro with be FWD, but who knows.. this IS *GM* we're talking about ! They've had a love affair with FWD for a LOT longer than just about any other American carmaker!
> > Sure, why not.. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My guess is any new camaro will be some fwd hunk of crap like > all the other reborn nameplates of recent years.... 66 6F HCS - 28 Sep 2004 05:45 GMT > Oh, and ford wanted to replace the mustang with a FWD car for 1989... Which became the Probe.
> My guess is any new camaro will be some fwd hunk of crap like > all the other reborn nameplates of recent years.... Nope, check my other posts. The Camaro returns in '07.
 Signature Scott W. '66 Mustang HCS 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W '97 Cougar 30th Anniv SE 4.6L ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~scott.williams.613/
Brent P - 28 Sep 2004 18:10 GMT >> My guess is any new camaro will be some fwd hunk of crap like >> all the other reborn nameplates of recent years....
> Nope, check my other posts. The Camaro returns in '07. I saw your post. 3 years out means rumors.
JohnR - 28 Sep 2004 01:57 GMT > With GM's track record of "reused" car names, I for one hope they leave the > Camaro and Trans-am names buried. Just look at what they did to the > following names > Nova when re-introduced it was just a Toyota tercel > Impala, Malibu, Monte Carlo they destroyed 3 of their best "street > fighter" names with FWD sh.t. The Impala is a good car, though more family than performance. The Monte Carlo has a weird aggressive look with nothing under the hood. Yeah, you see them in black with the nascar stickers and the dual exhaust tips. Do they ever challenge you at a light? Nope? They know its all show and no go.
> With the exception of the new GTO which is in fact an all Australian design > GM is only good for rehashing the names forsakes of "brand familiararity". [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > > them back after a few years break. 66 6F HCS - 27 Sep 2004 23:59 GMT > With the new Mustang coming out in a few weeks, and the attention it > is grabbing. Should Chevy and Pontiac re-think their f-body cars? What > a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > them back after a few years break. It's already happening. Camaro returns in 2007 for it's 40th anniversary. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro/
 Signature Scott W. '66 Mustang HCS 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W '97 Cougar 30th Anniv SE 4.6L ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~scott.williams.613/
66 6F HCS - 28 Sep 2004 00:03 GMT >> With the new Mustang coming out in a few weeks, and the attention it >> is grabbing. Should Chevy and Pontiac re-think their f-body cars? What [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's already happening. Camaro returns in 2007 for it's 40th anniversary. > http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro/ Here's another concept, though it's not the official Chevy version. http://www.tripleplate.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5148
 Signature Scott W. '66 Mustang HCS 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W '97 Cougar 30th Anniv SE 4.6L ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~scott.williams.613/
Joe - 28 Sep 2004 01:18 GMT >>> With the new Mustang coming out in a few weeks, and the attention >>> it is grabbing. Should Chevy and Pontiac re-think their f-body [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Here's another concept, though it's not the official Chevy version. > http://www.tripleplate.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5148 Awesome links, Scott. I especially like Kris Horton's concept: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0309phr_5camaro/
Joe Calyspo Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
TurboMike - 28 Sep 2004 01:31 GMT >http://www.tripleplate.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5148 Now that looks good!!
///Mike TS #63 1993 BMW 525i http://community.webshots.com/user/mpompe2 Pics of all the old cars
Joe - 28 Sep 2004 01:46 GMT >>http://www.tripleplate.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5148 > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://community.webshots.com/user/mpompe2 > Pics of all the old cars Yeah, those concept pix make the Mustang right underneath look ancient.
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Iconoclast - 28 Sep 2004 00:29 GMT > Hey Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > them back after a few years break. I hope not. If the Camaro's out of the running Ford is free to start breathing down Corvette's throat.
 Signature "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it." --Mark Twain
SVTKate - 28 Sep 2004 03:31 GMT Naw... it would be nice if these companies would come up with something NEW. We have been driving the SOSDD for-freaking-ever. Time for some fresh blood methinks.
Kate
| Hey Everyone, | [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring | them back after a few years break. Chief_Wiggum - 28 Sep 2004 04:50 GMT So, what you saying Kate ?
you willing to give up your Mustang for a, .... Oh I dunno... Clydesdale ??
:)
> Naw... it would be nice if these companies would come up with something NEW. > We have been driving the SOSDD for-freaking-ever. Time for some fresh blood [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > | a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > | them back after a few years break. SVTKate - 28 Sep 2004 23:44 GMT Something with style, flair, nice n fast, new, original and reasonably affordable. Hell CW, you know me... I want it ALL!
Kate
| So, what you saying Kate ? | [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] | > | a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring | > | them back after a few years break. ZombyWoof - 29 Sep 2004 03:25 GMT >Something with style, flair, nice n fast, new, original and reasonably >affordable. >Hell CW, you know me... I want it ALL! > >Kate In that case it pretty much rules out anything coming out of a low-end GM company. Maybe something out of Caddy, but I doubt it.
>| So, what you saying Kate ? >| [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >| > | a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring >| > | them back after a few years break. --
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
Ralph Snart - 29 Sep 2004 04:16 GMT I'd like to see that Cam-Birds back - just for the competition and Ford doesn't get compacent. Dodge is bringing back the Chager; it'd be nice to see the Challenger and Cuda make appearances also - but that may oversaturate the ponycar market.
> >Something with style, flair, nice n fast, new, original and reasonably > >affordable. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in > variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant. ZombyWoof - 30 Sep 2004 06:11 GMT >I'd like to see that Cam-Birds back - just for the competition and Ford >doesn't get compacent. Dodge is bringing back the Chager; it'd be nice to >see the Challenger and Cuda make appearances also - but that may >oversaturate the ponycar market. The only may the market could be over-staturated is by bring out to much garbage. I to would like to see a retro f-body, but I doubt you would ever see such a thing form GM. Look at what they did when they brought that little sporty pickup to the market. Put it at a price point out of reach of Joe Average. If Ford is careful they will end up doing that with the Mustang as well. That is why we need tons of choices in this market segment. --
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
Joe - 28 Sep 2004 14:05 GMT Kate, you need to visit your local Dodge dealer. ;)
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
> Naw... it would be nice if these companies would come up with > something NEW. We have been driving the SOSDD for-freaking-ever. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >| cars? What a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros >| then to bring them back after a few years break. SVTKate - 28 Sep 2004 23:44 GMT Go wash your mouth out!
| Kate, you need to visit your local Dodge dealer. ;) | [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] | >| cars? What a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros | >| then to bring them back after a few years break. Joe - 29 Sep 2004 00:49 GMT Ahh, you're just afraid that you might actually like something in there.. ;)
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
"SVTKate" <SVTKate@excite.competitive> wrote in news:APl6d.5876 $Ki1.4596@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> Go wash your mouth out! > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >| >| cars? What a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros >| >| then to bring them back after a few years break. SVTKate - 30 Sep 2004 02:16 GMT so? what's your point? *wink*
just out of general principal, I could NEVER buy a Dodge.
An old family feud between my brother and I.
Kate
| Ahh, you're just afraid that you might actually like something in | there.. ;) [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] | Camaros | >| >| then to bring them back after a few years break. Joe - 30 Sep 2004 02:35 GMT Now that's a shame. Limiting your automotive options because of a family feud. ;)
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
"SVTKate" <SVTKate@excite.competitive> wrote in news:L7J6d.4895 $ls6.1201@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> so? what's your point? > *wink* [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >| Camaros >| >| >| then to bring them back after a few years break. SVTKate - 30 Sep 2004 21:02 GMT It's not so much the feud.. I just hate the taste of crow!
K.
| Now that's a shame. Limiting your automotive options because of a | family feud. ;) [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] | >| Camaros | >| >| >| then to bring them back after a few years break. Larry Hepinstall - 28 Sep 2004 16:20 GMT Never fear, there's more competition than ever.
If they bring back the Camaro, lets hope they reengineer it so it looks like an early Camaro without all the bad ergonomics and cheap plastic of the modern ones. A little comfort would be good too. Otherwise forget it, they will just fail again.
LJH 95GT
> Hey Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > them back after a few years break. 180 Out - 28 Sep 2004 18:11 GMT cdnbiker24@hotmail.com (GoLeafs) wrote
> With the new Mustang coming out in a few weeks, and the attention it > is grabbing. Should Chevy and Pontiac re-think their f-body cars? What > a way to rekindle the interest in Trans-ams and Camaros then to bring > them back after a few years break. Nevah hoppen. Read this story: http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro/
An edited version:
"GM isn't willingly giving out information on this, but there's been a lot of speculation over the past couple of years, ranging from the pretty logical to the somewhat bizarre....
"It would seem the lack of commitment from GM management would be the most plausable....
"Back in 1987, GM initially planned on closing its Ste. Therese assembly plant....Both the government of Quebec and the government of Canada along with the local Canadian Auto Workers union stepped in....The governments granted GM a 220 million dollar (Canadian) interest-free loan, payable in 30 years. Both the Quebec and Ottawa governments each contributed 110 million each. GM also was awarded over 100 million dollars in tax breaks to keep the plant open.
"This basic agreement helped the Ste. Therese plant win the exclusive mandate from GM to produce the Camaro and Firebird....[T]his arrangement is stated clearly on GM Canada's own media information website: 'GM of Canada's Ste. Therese, Quebec plant has the exclusive General Motors mandate to assemble Chevrolet Camaros and Pontiac Firebirds....
"This loan agreement came with the obligation that GM would continue to make the F-body at this plant until at least 2001, unless the vehicles made there were no longer profitable and had to be discontinued....
"GM initially did plan on replacing the F-body, but by the late '90s, the emphasis within the camp of then-product boss Ron Zarella was on trucks, and that's where the resources went. As far as cars went, the future at GM became front-wheel driven. This meant the end of the F-body, independent of events at Ste. Therese....
"Officially, GM wanted to tear down the plant because of their belief the property was more valuable as a vacant lot than a 2.1 million square-foot plant, much too large for just about any use other than a high-production vehicle factory. Keep in mind, however, that the plant also had a mandate that it would be the sole source for Camaros and Firebirds. It now begins to come into focus that any comment on a future Camaro or Firebird prior to the plant's disposal, via sale or demolition, perhaps could very well create a situation where GM would be compelled to keep the plant. From a legal perspective, it might be construed that any future car that carried the name Camaro or Firebird would have to be made at this plant, at least till 2017, the year all Canadian government loans are to be repaid....
"It had been strongly hinted, and now confirmed, that GM was working on a sporty car for Chevrolet which includes a 5.3-liter V-8 engine, rear-wheel drive, and four-passenger capacity. This vehicle will be based on GM's upcoming "Zeta" chassis being developed by Holden, GM's Australian division. Production for Zeta is likely headed for GM's Hamtramck, Michigan plant, which will soon be phasing out Cadillac Deville, Seville and Buick LeSabre. Although at press time, full details are not known about this car, but it is known that it will fall into the same 'ponycar' market the Camaro filled. An anonymous source close to the vehicle project has told PHR that GM has asked Delphi Corporation, the world's largest automotive supplier, to submit a bid on the safety restraint (airbag) system and steering assembly for a MY2007 Camaro. The only issue seems to be the final name and who will supply sub-systems. At the time this is written, the Ste Therese plant is being demolished, and it's expected the land it was on will be sold by General Motors. Once this happens, it will be interesting to see if GM is a little freer in talking about the future of the Camaro nameplate.
"When it's all said and done, the degree to which Chevrolet is free to talk about an upcoming Camaro relies almost entirely on its relations with the Canadian government and the satisfaction of the Canadian Auto Workers union. We have no doubt there will be a "Camaro-like" vehicle in our future, so the issue really boils down to the use of the name and how litigious the lawyers feel about it. We hope they can overcome their objections and let the good times roll!"
180 Out TS 28
burdenk - 30 Sep 2004 07:57 GMT Yeah, its coming back. The guy who wrote that article posts over at Camaroz28.com in the 5th Gen Camaro Forum. Check it out- it has all you want to know about the next Camaro. Also, another good one is cheersandgears.com. And, speaking of Mopar- check out allpar.com. They have some new pics up of what maybe the next Charger. Really, it looks more like a Magnum sedan (just like the Car & Driver pics if anyone has seen em'). But, back to the original question, yes they should bring back the Camar0. TAs are dead forever. GTO is Pontiac's performance coupe.
> > With the new Mustang coming out in a few weeks, and the attention it > > is grabbing. Should Chevy and Pontiac re-think their f-body cars? What [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > 180 Out > TS 28 Snow - 30 Sep 2004 13:05 GMT The GTO is only a 3 or 4 year limited production run, due to the entire car is built in Australia and is infact a GM import to North America, with current autopacks and such GM can only sell the GTO in NA for a limited time before they either have to produce it here or stop selling it. Out of the Trans Am and Camaro I would prefer the T/A came back.
Snow...
> Yeah, its coming back. The guy who wrote that article posts over at > Camaroz28.com in the 5th Gen Camaro Forum. Check it out- it has all you [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > 180 Out > > TS 28 180 Out - 30 Sep 2004 16:51 GMT burdenk <burdenk@boeing.com> wrote
> Yeah, its coming back. The guy who wrote that article posts over at > Camaroz28.com in the 5th Gen Camaro Forum. Check it out- it has all you > want to know about the next Camaro. Also, another good one is > cheersandgears.com. What I got from the PHR story is that GM is working on a new pony car, but that there is a going to be a big problem with the Canadian provincial governments and the Canadian UAW if they call it a "Camaro." This last paragraph of the PHR story is what I'm talking about:
> > "When it's all said and done, the degree to which Chevrolet is free to > > talk about an upcoming Camaro relies almost entirely on its relations [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > and how litigious the lawyers feel about it. We hope they can overcome > > their objections and let the good times roll!" Now I don't know why the author wants to blame the "feelings" of "the lawyers," when the problem actually arose from politicians trying to buy votes by keeping an economically unviable assembly plant open, and that they did so without getting iron-clad assurances of return for value. Rather, it sounds like the Canadian UAW's "rights" to produce Camaros till the end of time -- or until 2017 at least -- was left purposefully vague. That way, the politicians and union leaders could claim they'd done something for their constituents, when in fact GM never agreed in black and white to grant the Camaro "rights" to the Canadians. It's just this kind of situation that lawyers feast on, but not because of their own "feelings." It's because of the stupidity and cupidity of the non-lawyers, aka "the clients."
So anyway, stepping off the soap box, I'm calling it more likely than not that GM will just sidestep the whole problem and call the new ponycar anything but "Camaro." I understand "Corvair" is available. Or how about "Chevette"?
180 Out TS 28
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