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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / October 2004Engine swap?
Hey all... I am thinking about the upgrades I wanna make to my 86... I realize the issues with the different pistons will make it a bit of a pain to replace the inefficient heads..and I am thinking with all things considered (also changing the gears in the diff will necessitate the tranny be dropped) that it may be wiser to purchase a 351 W or a 351 C if I can get one... Then I can do the work I need to with the speedometer gears for the diff change and add whatever upgrades I want alot easier than I would if I was working with the old 86 302.. However..I am wondering if a 351 will bolt to the mounts as they are now? They can be had really cheap in my area (1200 bucks for a fresh rebuilt) and alot of second hand ones come with the tranny..so why not? Anyway..thanks in advance for any advice you can offer... Johnny >Hey all... >I am thinking about the upgrades I wanna make to my 86... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Anyway..thanks in advance for any advice you can offer... >Johnny Here's a link to just such a swap: (351W into a Fox chassis) http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/18818/ In The Year of Our Lord=-+->!! Wed, 06 Oct 2004 13:50:25 GMT,<-+-=Our highly esteemed and respected member=-+-> Dinsdale <back@ya.com> <-+-=Put forth this notion for all to ponder... :>Hey all... :>I am thinking about the upgrades I wanna make to my 86... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] :Here's a link to just such a swap: (351W into a Fox chassis) :http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/18818/ ~Thank you much... > Hey all... > I am thinking about the upgrades I wanna make to my 86... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Anyway..thanks in advance for any advice you can offer... > Johnny Your most hassle free option is to buy a quality crate motor from whichever company strikes your fancy (PAW is my favorite), and swap the 302. 380-400 hp is attainable without a stroker or a radical cam. Ford sells a nice crate motor for a very reasonable price. The 351W is an easy swap. But it's taller and wider, so hood clearance and header clearance become an issue. The 351C is a difficult swap because of the head design. There are not many performance parts available for the Cleveland engine. Unless you just happen to have a good one lying about, forget that. If it were my car, I'd order a 302 short block with a hot hydraulic roller cam from PAW, and a set of AFR heads. If you don't have to worry about emissions, a nice holley carb and edelbrock intake to top it all off. That would make a very strong motor that will run forever on pump gas.  Signature.boB 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged! 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1983 GMC Jimmy - Mountain Beater 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1966 FFR Cobra - Ongoing project In The Year of Our Lord=-+->!! Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:00:24 -0600,<-+-=Our highly esteemed and respected member=-+-> boB <bobcowan@access4less.net> <-+-=Put forth this notion for all to ponder... :> Hey all... :> I am thinking about the upgrades I wanna make to my 86... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] :off. That would make a very strong motor that will run forever on pump :gas. ~Hey Bob..thanks for the RE... I don't have the $$ for a crate motor..but a rebuilt runs around 600 bucks where I am..so it's a cheap option... I knew about the clearance issues froom the height standpoint..so I was planning on swapping the stock hood with a cowl as well... And headers are not gonna be added till later on anyway..or..I may look into lower profile headers if they are available... Thanks again for the advice.. Johnny Having swapped a 351 into an '89... Yes, the 351 uses the existing mounts, but that's about it. You'll need a new intake manifold, new oil pan, new distributer, new exhaust manifolds along with a new hood for starters. This isn't an inexpensive swap. The cost of a 331 stroker can easily be justified IMHO. You can re-use all of your old parts and add upgrades as budget allows and reap the benefits of better torque immediately. bradtx > Having swapped a 351 into an '89... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with > a new hood for starters. Why would he need a new oil pan. It's the same pan as a 302. I don't see why the exhaust headers would have to be replaced either, the motor is only 1/2" extra width/height added to both sides and uses the same head. I'm not trying to be a wiseass, I just don't understand why those would have to be replaced too. The rest I agree with. Does the hood on an '89 really have such little clearance that a 351 won't fit without a cowl hood? SignatureScott W. '66 Mustang HCS 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W '97 Cougar 30th Anniv SE 4.6L ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~scott.williams.613/ >Why would he need a new oil pan. It's the same pan as a 302. For the Mustang it'll have to be the double sump pan. >Does the hood on an '89 really >have such little clearance that a 351 won't fit without a cowl hood? Every swap article I've ever read says it won't fit. Seems like i remember reading where someone used a special motor mount that lowered the motor in the bay just enough for it to fit. ///Mike TS #63 1993 BMW 525i http://community.webshots.com/user/mpompe2 Pics of all the old cars - Newly updated > Every swap article I've ever read says it won't fit. Seems like i > remember > reading where someone used a special motor mount that lowered the motor in > the > bay just enough for it to fit. Sheesh, what a PITA... and an expensive one at that. SignatureScott W. '66 Mustang HCS 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W '97 Cougar 30th Anniv SE 4.6L ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~scott.williams.613/ > > Having swapped a 351 into an '89... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why would he need a new oil pan. It's the same pan as a 302. Nope. The 351W block has a different rail pattern than the 302; takes a different pan. > I don't see why > the exhaust headers would have to be replaced either, the motor is only 1/2" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to be replaced too. The rest I agree with. Does the hood on an '89 really > have such little clearance that a 351 won't fit without a cowl hood? SignatureCobraJet Thunder Snake #1 The 351 has larger main bearings (2.749") and the 302 pan won't fit front and rear. Some of the 351 race blocks do have the 302's size main journal ( 2.248".) The 351 is 3 inches taller and 2 1/4" wider, but the same length per Ford. My GT40 intake (w/1/2" spacer) has ~ 3/4" clearance with a 2" Harwood hood. bradtx > In The Year of Our Lord=-+->!! Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:00:24 > ~Hey Bob..thanks for the RE... > I don't have the $$ for a crate motor..but a rebuilt runs around 600 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks again for the advice.. > Johnny You get what you pay for - if you're lucky. $600 for a rebuilt motor is pretty darn cheap. It's not going to last long under any kind of performance use. And it won't make that much power, either. Low compression, iron rings, cast pistons, stock rods, stock cast crank, stock cam, stock heads. Cheap, cheap, cheap parts. No valve covers, front cover, or oil pan. We're probably talking about 225-250 hp. For that, it's not even worth it to do the swap. You'll be pretty disappointed. Plus, you have to spend money on the new hood, headers, etc, to make the swap. OTOH, For around $2200'ish, PAW will sell you a long block kit that will make about 375hp with the right cam (included), and last forever at 6500rpm's. Some assembly required. Unless you abuse the heck out of it, it will be the last engine you ever buy. I purchased a PAW 427W short block kit for my Cobra. Very well done, quality parts, machine work spot on. Signature.boB 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged! 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1983 GMC Jimmy - Mountain Beater 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1966 FFR Cobra - Ongoing project In The Year of Our Lord=-+->!! Fri, 08 Oct 2004 23:19:34 -0600,<-+-=Our highly esteemed and respected member=-+-> boB <bobcowan@access4less.net> <-+-=Put forth this notion for all to ponder... :> In The Year of Our Lord=-+->!! Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:00:24 : [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] : I purchased a PAW 427W short block kit for my Cobra. Very well :done, quality parts, machine work spot on. ~Ok..I read all the replies here..and I wanna address a few points.. I know the old parts (oil pan etc) won't swap over from my stock 302 to a 351... I know there are lower profile engine mounts available...and I was thinking of going that route.. I know the engine will be taller and wider..thus the cowl hood.. However..a re-built 351 does not have to be a bad investment..they are cheap because they are plentiful..all the old parts have been replaced with stock parts..so basically I'll be better off because I'll have a rebuilt 351 instead of an old 302 with 200K kms on it... I am not planning to race the car..so stroking it and changing to a more radical cam and such is not something I am considering at this point... I have alot of options..but my point was this..why modify a 302 to produce a few extra horses when I can replace it with an engine that will already produce more horses without modifications for less than a few mods to the 302 would cost me? This engine I am considering already has an oil pan..intake manifold..etc..so it's not an issue to consider with the old parts crossing over... > In The Year of Our Lord=-+->!! Fri, 08 Oct 2004 23:19:34 > -0600,<-+-=Our highly esteemed and respected member=-+-> boB [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > manifold..etc..so it's not an issue to consider with the old parts > crossing over... That's not the issue in my mind. It makes perfect sense to go bigger. There's no replacement for displacement. An extra 50 cubes is extremly valuable. It weighs a little more, but that's usually not an issue. The swap is also not that difficult. A hood scoop and a set of headers and you're there. You can use a lower profile motor mount and trans mount set. But then pinion angle and ground clearance can become an issue. The point is (as I see it), that you don't get much for $600. The parts used often don't yield any power increase over a quality 302, negating the point of the swap. Plus, there's durability to consider. Signature.boB 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged! 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1983 GMC Jimmy - Mountain Beater 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1966 FFR Cobra - Ongoing project From an economic standpoint...the 351 swap is expensive from all of the ancillary items required. So far: engine/trans mounts, intake/exhaust, oil pan, distributer, hood. If you buy the rebuilt 351, be advized that your stock heads will require having the holes for the head bolts drilled to 1/2". A stock upper intake won't fit a GT40, or any other 351 lower that I'm aware of. If you search this NG you may find all of the items required from my swap...couple of years ago. Should you decide to go ahead with the 351, we'll gladly help. You may've read some of my sporadic posts of the 351 we're putting into a '65 coupe, so yes I'm a fan of the swap, it's just not economical. bradtx |
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