Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / December 2004
Locked-up oil pump
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Michael Bonnice - 28 Dec 2004 17:59 GMT I'm looking for the source of chunks which locked up my oil pump. The motor is a 302 from a '77 Mustang, although it is in a '65 Fairlane. The engine was rebuilt 10 years ago, 43K miles ago. I'm going into lots of detail below because it helps me think through the problem. Perhaps you can enlighten me on some points.
Here's the whole story. A week ago I took the car out for a drive. Two or three blocks from home, the oil light came on. I pulled over and checked the oil level, it was two quarts low (I've been neglectful of maintenance, I guess). I called home and my son brought me two quarts. I added the oil and started it up, but the oil light stayed on. I drove the car home slow, backed it in the garage (lifters were clicking by that time).
I pulled the distributor, drained the oil, and dropped the oil pan. The oil pump drive shaft was twisted and sheared. The pump wouldn't rotate. On disassembly, I found black chunks in the gaps between the rotors. There was a smashed chunk compressed in the tightest spot between rotors, but it wouldn't smash any further so the rotors locked up.
Chunks aren't supposed to get through the pick-up screen, so I looked closely at the screen. There was a gap, under the "button" at the center of the screen. In fact, another chunk was stuck in the gap, it was slightly too big to fit.
In the bottom of the pan there were a few chunks, not much.
I cut open the oil filter, there were no chunks there.
There were two kinds of chunks in the pan - hard, black, glassy chunks and black crumbly chunks. I think the crumbly chunks were cork or RTV from the oil pan seal. I don't know what the hard, glassy chunks are.
The chunks in the pump were of the hard, glassy variety. They are brittle, perhaps 0.050-0.070" thick. There was a large chunk in the pan, same thickness, oddly shaped, perhaps 0.250" square. What's wierd is it has some curvature, like it is from a piece of a broken glass tube about 3/4 inch diameter. These chunks can be broken fairly easily; they don't crumble but they shear when you twist or press them or poke them with a dental pick. There is no damage to the pump because the chunks are softer than the rotors.
The chunks are not pieces of piston rings, nor pieces of metal or actual glass. On the large chunk, on the outer surface, under a magnifying glass the surface has light scoring in the circumferential direction. The corners of the edges look like they may have been sharp at one time, but had become rounded. The corners of the chunks in the pump were sharper.
Evidently, the chain of events started when I accelerated with a nearly-cold engine (its 50 degrees in Phoenix these days) and with a low oil level. Did this make it easy to pick up chunks? Did it generate the chunks? Why didn't it eat the chunks sooner? Either the chunks just now dropped into the pan and got sucked up, or they've been there a while and just now got sucked up, maybe because the hole in the screen just now opened wide enough, or the chunks just now got small enough to fit throught the hole in the screen
I could get running again by replacing the pump drive shaft and the pick-up tube and screen to get a screen having no holes, but this doesn't eimininate the source of the chunks. Will there be more chunks?
What kind of chunk is shaped like a piece of curved glass? Did it come from under the valve covers? From behind the front cover (in the region of the cam drive)? I can't imagine it came from the clinders, because these chunks would not fit the clearance between cylinder and piston.
Are these chunks a coating of some sort, perhaps building up over time and finally breaking loose? Nothing inside the surface of the oil pan looks like this, nor does anything in the bottom of the block or cylinders. Maybe they fell off the surface of the valve covers or some other surface. I can't see inside those covers unless I remove the covers or get a boroscope.
So, any tips?
Mike
trainfan1 - 28 Dec 2004 18:31 GMT > I'm looking for the source of chunks which locked up my oil pump. The > motor is a 302 from a '77 Mustang, although it is in a '65 Fairlane. The [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Mike Plastic timing gears, maybe?
Rob
Michael Bonnice - 28 Dec 2004 18:54 GMT > Plastic timing gears, maybe? > > Rob No, I doubt it. Firstly, if I remember, the gears are metal. Second, the shape is different. But the pieces do remind me of something plastic which, when hit while cold, would tend to shatter as something brittle.
The stuff is also like bakelite. Unless you are pretty old, you might not remember that stuff. It is a hard brittle plastic or glass material. I had a little 45 RPM record player as a kid, the case was made of bakelite. There are probably bakelite parts in a 60's Mustang (connectors, maybe?).
Mike
Jim Warman - 28 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT Don't discount timing gears..... the OEM style replacement cam gear will likely be aluminum with a hard plastic coating. This coating can and will break off in little chunks.Another possibility may be valve stem seals.... the old black umbrella seals were known for baking as hard as rocks.
Since you have the pan off, it should be relatively easy to check timing chain lash.
>> Plastic timing gears, maybe? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike trainfan1 - 28 Dec 2004 20:06 GMT > Don't discount timing gears..... the OEM style replacement cam gear will > likely be aluminum with a hard plastic coating. This coating can and will > break off in little chunks.Another possibility may be valve stem seals.... > the old black umbrella seals were known for baking as hard as rocks. I'm voting for the seals, now, based on your original description... but are they small enough to travel through the oil return passages in the heads & block?
Rob
WraithCobra - 28 Dec 2004 20:59 GMT I had the plastic coating come off the timing gears in a '76 302 which resulted in a different problem, the chain skiped teeth. I read the orginal post and the first thing that came to mind was that plastic. Open the timing cover and take a look at the gears. My vote's on that plastic.
 Signature Mike Silver 10th Anniversary Cobra Coupe ---
>> Don't discount timing gears..... the OEM style replacement cam gear >> will likely be aluminum with a hard plastic coating. This coating [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Rob SWG - 28 Dec 2004 21:02 GMT I'd go with the valve seals. If they were rubber to start with. Especially if the engine has overheated or ran hot for a while. Its happened to me 20 odd years ago.
If it was an original 77 engine I'd agree some of the larger chunks could be from the nylon cam gears that were used back then, but I've never seen pieces from them small enough to get thru the pickup screen. They were "natural" or opaque white in color.
Check the bearings front and rear for scoring. There probably won't be any to speak of. Replace the valve seals. Clean or replace the pump. Its a good time to switch to a high volume pump if you choose to replace it. They come with the drive rod. (or did)
Wayne
| > Don't discount timing gears..... the OEM style replacement cam gear will | > likely be aluminum with a hard plastic coating. This coating can and will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | Rob Michael Bonnice - 28 Dec 2004 23:23 GMT > I'd go with the valve seals. If they were rubber to start with. Especially > if the engine has overheated or ran hot for a while. Its happened to me 20 > odd years ago. It did run hot last year (fall 2003) when the radiator got plugged. I suppose I can't avoid taking off the valve covers to see what's going on in there.
> If it was an original 77 engine I'd agree some of the larger chunks could be > from the nylon cam gears that were used back then, but I've never seen > pieces from them small enough to get thru the pickup screen. They were > "natural" or opaque white in color. Was the entire gear made of plastic? Was it a coating? The pieces don't look like gear teeth or gear body, but I suppose that it's not impossible.
The pickup screen itself is intact, as its outer attachment, but there is a strip of sheet metal about an inch wide across the center that obscures seeing the whole screen. When I look under that strip from the side, it seems the center of the screen is open but covered by something that looks like a button, and the screen under the button is open enough for pieces about a tenth of an inch to get through. I think I need a new pickup.
> Check the bearings front and rear for scoring. There probably won't be any > to speak of. Replace the valve seals. Clean or replace the pump. Its a good > time to switch to a high volume pump if you choose to replace it. They come > with the drive rod. (or did) Do I remove the heads to replace the valve seals? It's been so long ago when I rebuilt the engine that I forgot.
Is a high volume pump something to be found at, say, NAPA? Is it an item I get from a high-performance shop?
> Wayne It would be great to get a boroscope so I can look around inside the front cover or under the valve covers. I'd really like some more evidence what the source of chunks is before I start tearing things apart. Do you suppose there are places to rent one?
Mike
SWG - 29 Dec 2004 01:50 GMT | > I'd go with the valve seals. If they were rubber to start with. Especially | > if the engine has overheated or ran hot for a while. Its happened to me 20 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | don't look like gear teeth or gear body, but I suppose that it's not | impossible. It was just a coating over the teeth area.
| The pickup screen itself is intact, as its outer attachment, but there | is a strip of sheet metal about an inch wide across the center that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | Do I remove the heads to replace the valve seals? It's been so long ago | when I rebuilt the engine that I forgot. Yes, but you don't have to. I think its easier to remove them.
| Is a high volume pump something to be found at, say, NAPA? Is it an | item I get from a high-performance shop? NAPA should have them, as well as other parts places.
| > Wayne | | It would be great to get a boroscope so I can look around inside the | front cover or under the valve covers. I'd really like some more | evidence what the source of chunks is before I start tearing things | apart. Do you suppose there are places to rent one? Valve cover gaskets aren't expensive. In fact, I've got a box of 25 in the basement for Ford small blocks.
I doubt if I'd take off the front cover as once you look at the valve seals you'll know thats where your chunks came from. I'd bet at least 4 of the 16 seals won't be inside the springs.
Wayne
Mark - 29 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT Michael, In my opinion It's a good idea to rebuild at this point. It sounds like your engine hasn't been rebuilt before, at least not properly that is, if the cooling system was once clogged by debris from the block. The "plastic" you describe in the oiling system could be from old style timing gears and/or old valve stem seal debris. It's possible the chunks could have been stuck in the oil screen when "rebuilt" last or somewhere in the block even though now, you have a metal geared timing chain. If the pump froze at the time you pulled over and you then drove it home slowly, it's most likely you scored your cylinder walls and damaged your bearings. I don't think you'll be happy if you just throw a new pump on and call it good, unless you're very lucky. Even then, you'll have problemes with the engine soon. Good luck and let us know what happens. :)
Backyard Mechanic - 29 Dec 2004 19:33 GMT > Michael, In my opinion It's a good idea to rebuild at this point. It > sounds like your engine hasn't been rebuilt before, at least not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Agree.. the bearings may be still okay or not too bad - but your rings are shot, and you'll burn oil like crazy... only takes a few seconds of no-oil.
The cyl walls dont score until a ring breaks, which also COULD be the case ; but the edges of the rings round off first.
 Signature - Yes, I'm a crusty old geezer curmudgeon.. deal with it! -
Brian Orion - 29 Dec 2004 21:53 GMT Re: >"Agree.. the bearings may be still okay
> or not too bad - but your rings are shot, > and you'll burn oil like crazy... only takes > a few seconds of no-oil." ----------------------------------------------------- Tell that to Andy Ganatelli.Isn't he the guy who drove that Viper around for hours without oil? (LOL!)
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Kevin Bottorff - 30 Dec 2004 16:46 GMT >> Michael, In my opinion It's a good idea to rebuild at this point. It >> sounds like your engine hasn't been rebuilt before, at least not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > The cyl walls dont score until a ring breaks, which also COULD be the > case ; but the edges of the rings round off first. very often with a severe overheat you will get cyl wall scoring in the skirt area. also will do so with just many many miles use. very common on 302s. KB
 Signature ThunderSnake #9 Warn once, shoot twice 460 in the pkup, 460 on the stand for another pkup and one in the shed for a fun project to yet be decided on
pick one - 28 Dec 2004 22:16 GMT >> I'm looking for the source of chunks which locked up my oil pump. The motor >> is a 302 from a '77 Mustang, although it is in a '65 Fairlane. The engine was [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> screen. In fact, another chunk was stuck in the gap, it was slightly too big >> to fit. Most likely valve seals, common on that vintage engine.
>> In the bottom of the pan there were a few chunks, not much. >> >> I cut open the oil filter, there were no chunks there. That's because the chunks did not make it through the pump.
>> There were two kinds of chunks in the pan - hard, black, glassy chunks and >> black crumbly chunks. I think the crumbly chunks were cork or RTV from the >> oil pan seal. I don't know what the hard, glassy chunks are. Black crumbly valve stem seal. Hard glassy the plastic that is on the cam timing gear. Both common failures. Removing the timing cover will verify.
>> The chunks in the pump were of the hard, glassy variety. They are brittle, >> perhaps 0.050-0.070" thick. There was a large chunk in the pan, same [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> maybe because the hole in the screen just now opened wide enough, or the >> chunks just now got small enough to fit throught the hole in the screen No the chain of events started a long time ago, the plastic has been in the process of coming apart slowly over time.
>> I could get running again by replacing the pump drive shaft and the pick-up >> tube and screen to get a screen having no holes, but this doesn't eimininate >> the source of the chunks. Will there be more chunks? Not only will there be more chucks, but the engine may not run due to a slipped timing chain because the plastic teeth are missing on the cam gear.
>> What kind of chunk is shaped like a piece of curved glass? Did it come from >> under the valve covers? From behind the front cover (in the region of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Are these chunks a coating of some sort, perhaps building up over time and >> finally breaking loose? They coat the cam gear for noise control.
> Nothing inside the surface of the oil pan >> looks like this, nor does anything in the bottom of the block or cylinders. >> Maybe they fell off the surface of the valve covers or some other surface. I >> can't see inside those covers unless I remove the covers or get a boroscope. You have the pan off, do it right and go the rest of the way.
>> So, any tips? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Rob Brian Orion - 29 Dec 2004 21:57 GMT Michael,it's got to be the valve seals.Real easy to replace with heads in place. Best ....Brian O. ps. Take better care of that Fairlane!
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Michael Bonnice - 30 Dec 2004 15:48 GMT To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There were no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by inspection around each with a mirror), and the valve seals are flexible - I can press on them with a dental pick and they deform nicely.
Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks.
I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring.
It's hard to see the timing gear, but I did get a litle mirror in there and didn't see anything of the the same shape or color as the chunks.
So I conclude that I don't know where the chunks came from and that I never will unless I tear down the engine.
On the other hand, I could just replace the pickup screen, put it all back together and move on. If my loss of oil has led to damage, then I'll burn oil. If I generate more chunks, the screen will keep them out. Total cost, maybe $200 for all the parts and gaskets.
The alternative is to either rebuild the engine or get a new engine. In either case, the expense is on the order of $1500-$3000, depending on what direction I want to go.
I don't know what the odds are of an unfortunate event occuring if I reassemble the current engine. The severity of the unfortunate event would be limited to a breakdown and being late for an appointment, plus rebuilding the engine. So, I won't drive this car to any critical appointments until I build some confidence in it.
At the moment, I'm still contemplating. My hunch is to gamble and to put it back together. Even if I decide to rebuild the engine, I'm not going to commit to that expense for a while, so I might as well be driving what I have.
Mike
pick one - 30 Dec 2004 22:48 GMT > To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There were > no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by inspection > around each with a mirror), and the valve seals are flexible - I can press on > them with a dental pick and they deform nicely. How did you inspect the valve seals with out removing the valve springs?
> Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks. There wouldn't be.
> I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring. > > It's hard to see the timing gear, but I did get a litle mirror in there and > didn't see anything of the the same shape or color as the chunks. Because from where you are looking, you will not be able to properly see the cam gear.
> So I conclude that I don't know where the chunks came from and that I never > will unless I tear down the engine. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Mike Michael Bonnice - 31 Dec 2004 05:32 GMT >>To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There were >>no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by inspection >>around each with a mirror), and the valve seals are flexible - I can press on >>them with a dental pick and they deform nicely. > > How did you inspect the valve seals with out removing the valve springs? The seals are visible by looking through the gaps in the spring coils. I used a mirror and a light to look at the hard-to-see spots.
>>Nothing in the breathers indicates shedding of chunks. > > There wouldn't be. I couldn't remember if there was some sort of plastic grommet involved somewhere; it turns out there wasn't.
>>I checked the #1 and #5 main bearings and there was no scoring. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Because from where you are looking, you will not be able to properly see the cam > gear. It's not possible to see the whole thing, but it is possible to clearly see parts of the gear. What I can see of the teeth and of the gear web shows no sign of anything resembling the black shiney brittle material of the chunks.
Mike
Mark - 31 Dec 2004 06:03 GMT Like I said b4, It's probably left over chunks from a previous (crappy) rebuild.
>>>To follow up, yesterday I took off the valve covers to investigate. There >>>were no chunks there, all the valve seals are intact (as determined by [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Mike
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