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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / March 2005

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A Next GTO Now In Doubt?

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NoOption5L@aol.com - 21 Mar 2005 19:34 GMT
GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
opponents angles (like a boxer), with the successful resurgance of
Cadillac and the hot 'Vette, it appears GM is now just backing up and
fighting off the ropes.  Hopefully GM can counter a little with that
new Pontiac 2-seater soon to debut, because GM needs to stay in the
fight!

And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling is
everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.  It would
be a shame to lose yet another RWD American performance car.

----
By Ed Garsten

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. has killed plans for a new line of
rear-wheel drive passenger cars slated to reach North American
showrooms in 2008, in large part to free up resources to bring its next
generation of large pickups and sport utility vehicles to market
quicker.

The news comes after GM reassured investors, suppliers and Wall Street
analysts last week that future car and truck programs would remain on
schedule despite a new cost-cutting effort.

The automaker is under severe pressure to streamline after announcing
last week its 2005 earnings would fall as much as 80 percent below
previous estimates.

"While work on particular North American applications of our premium
rear-wheel drive midsize vehicle architecture have indeed been stopped,
we have begun to study new approaches to efficiently capitalize on
future opportunities we see for future midsize rear-wheel drive
applications," Marc Beckers, a spokesman for GM, said.

The rear-drive "global architecture" -- dubbed Zeta -- was to provide
the basic underpinnings for an array of cars and crossover vehicles for
markets around the world. It will continue to be the basis for products
sold in regions outside North America.

GM's decision to kill the Zeta program puts the brakes on development
of the next generation Pontiac GTO sports car, and new entries for
Chevrolet, Buick and Pontiac. The current GTO is already being produced
by GM's Holden unit in Australia.

Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman for product development, canceled
development of the premium rear-wheel models for North America,
according to two people familiar with the situation.

It was Lutz who first championed the new rear-wheel drive platform. The
renowned car expert announced the Zeta program in 2003 as the industry
was turning its attention toward rear-wheel drive vehicles.

But he pulled the plug on the North America models after determining
the vehicles could not be engineered and assembled to sell at prices
competitive with the popular Chrysler 300C, Ford Mustang and other
models, without sacrificing quality and content.

In addition, GM is anxious to free up resources to speed up the launch
of its new line of full-size pickup trucks. They are not expected to
arrive until 2006.

Many in the industry expected the Zeta architecture would mean the
return of the Chevrolet Camaro and production versions of the Buick
Velite concept car, which debuted at the 2004 New York auto show to
rave reviews.

"This is scary. It puts GM behind the eight ball," said Joseph
Phillippi of AutoTrends Consulting in Short Hills, N.J. "It makes you
wonder why can't they get it right. Where does it seemingly go wrong?"

The retreat from Zeta could delay the introduction of GM's new
rear-wheel drive passenger cars by at least a year, Phillippi said.

That's bad news for the automaker, which has seen only lukewarm early
sales for several of its newly launched products, such as the Pontiac
G6, Chevrolet Cobalt and Buick LaCrosse. The new Chevrolet Equinox, a
small SUV, has been a strong seller.

Global Insight market analyst John Wolkonowicz said GM's decision to
stop the development of Zeta-based vehicles for North America means a
missed opportunity to compete.

"The Chrysler 300C is a watershed car like the 1986 Ford Taurus," said
Wolkonowicz. "With Zeta, GM had an answer."

For sure, GM has not given up on rear-wheel drive vehicles. Two
roadsters, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky, will be rear-wheel
drive entries. Other rear-wheel drive GM cars include the Cadillac CTS
and STS sedans, the Chevrolet Corvette and the Pontiac GTO.

GM Chairman Rick Wagoner last week said there would be no reduction in
capital spending in light of the abrupt profit warning and signaled new
product programs would be safe from the budget ax.

"Product remains the first and most important element of the strategy
to get North America on track," he said.

Through February, GM sales are down 10 percent from last year and its
market share has slipped to 24.9 percent, compared with 26.7 percent a
year ago, according to Autodata Corp.

"When you have an automaker struggling from a market share or sales
standpoint, the worst thing you can do is slow introduction of
product," said Erich Merkle, an analyst with Grand Rapids consultants
IRN Inc. "It may point to some issues GM is having internally, perhaps
from a communication perspective between what the market wants and what
GM can afford."
---

Patrick
'93 Cobra
RichA - 22 Mar 2005 02:38 GMT
>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>new Pontiac 2-seater soon to debut, because GM needs to stay in the
>fight!
Another Fiero?
NoOption5L@aol.com - 22 Mar 2005 02:51 GMT
> >GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
> >the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >new Pontiac 2-seater soon to debut, because GM needs to stay in the
> >fight!

>  Another Fiero?

You haven't seen it...?  It's far from a Fiero.  

Patrick
'93 Cobra
SVTKate - 22 Mar 2005 12:57 GMT
Hey Patrick, I miss when your "from" line used to say Patrick.

For reasons I choose only to disclose to the cat.

Kate

| > >GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
| > >the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
| Patrick
| '93 Cobra
SVTKate - 22 Mar 2005 13:02 GMT
I think it may be viewed like the Miata.
A Chick car.

It's a cute little car I suppose, if you're into that kind of thing.

Kate
Joe - 22 Mar 2005 02:51 GMT
RichA <none@none.com> wrote in news:6otu31hn4okbhhi9i4nu5bvrqkse86lha3
@4ax.com:

>>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>fight!
>  Another Fiero?

No, it's a Miata killer.  For $20k it's pretty neat.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
ZombyWoof - 22 Mar 2005 05:24 GMT
>>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>fight!
> Another Fiero?

I loved my Fiero.  A regular blast to drive once you realized one
should never slam on the brakes on a rear-engine car in the rain.
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Signature


"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown

memset@recorddeal.com - 22 Mar 2005 07:43 GMT
LOL!! WHEEEEE lol.

-Mike

--
A happy kid behind the wheel of a 98 Mustang GT
Cold air intake
FRPP 3.73 gears
Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter
Flowmaster 40 Series mufflers (self-installed woohoo)
Hi-speed fan switch
255/60R-15 rear tires
Subframe connectors
Aluminum adjustable clutch quadrant

> >>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
> >>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
> of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown
ZombyWoof - 22 Mar 2005 05:30 GMT
>>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>fight!
> Another Fiero?

Not quite http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacsolstice.html
Signature


"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown

RichA - 22 Mar 2005 06:33 GMT
>>>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>>>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>Not quite http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacsolstice.html

"Part BWM Z3, part Porche Boxter, part PONTIAC!"
"It's the Boxontiac Z3!"

I'm sure it will do very well, it's definitely a niche market car.
-Rich
Martin - 22 Mar 2005 22:48 GMT
I have an 86 Fiero GT with 42,000 original miles. Lots of fun to drive.
Honestly thinking of selling it however as I have 3 rides all
registered and insured.  

Martin
2002GT 5spd.
86 Fiero GT
98 Ranger
Joe - 23 Mar 2005 03:03 GMT
"Martin" <martin@capecod.com> wrote in news:1111528127.689529.222940
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> I have an 86 Fiero GT with 42,000 original miles. Lots of fun to drive.
> Honestly thinking of selling it however as I have 3 rides all
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 86 Fiero GT
> 98 Ranger

Neat.  Where are you located?

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Martin - 23 Mar 2005 13:58 GMT
Hi Joe,
I'm in Sagamore Massachusetts which is about 65 miles South of Boston.
Martin
2002 GT 5spd
Joe - 24 Mar 2005 01:26 GMT
"Martin" <martin@capecod.com> wrote in news:1111582762.580436.236110
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Hi Joe,
> I'm in Sagamore Massachusetts which is about 65 miles South of Boston.
> Martin
> 2002 GT 5spd

A little far for me to see the car, as I'm in South Florida.  Thanks
anyway.  Maybe ZW will take you up on it.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
ZombyWoof - 24 Mar 2005 05:06 GMT
>"Martin" <martin@capecod.com> wrote in news:1111582762.580436.236110
>@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>A little far for me to see the car, as I'm in South Florida.  Thanks
>anyway.  Maybe ZW will take you up on it.

After seeing a couple of pic and hearing a price the flight could be
tonight.
Signature


"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown

Martin - 24 Mar 2005 14:27 GMT
I have a CD with some photos as well as a private apraisal. Will try to
duplicate the CD. May take a little time as I travel on buisness a lot
sometimes. Send me a PM to my work e-mail with your contact info.

Work. jmcquade@c-map.com
1.800.424.2627
Martin
Martin - 24 Mar 2005 17:05 GMT
Correct work e-mail. jmcquade@c-map.com
Sorry for being OT everyone.
Martin
ZombyWoof - 23 Mar 2005 08:31 GMT
>I have an 86 Fiero GT with 42,000 original miles. Lots of fun to drive.
>Honestly thinking of selling it however as I have 3 rides all
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>86 Fiero GT
>98 Ranger

If that thought ever turns into reality let me know.  I've been
looking for a Fiero GT for about the past two years and all I ever
come across is junk that requires much more time & effort then I
desire to expend.  I did come across a time capsule one about six
months ago, but the owner expected more then original MSRP for it.
Not looking for a show piece anyhow, just a good daily driver
funmobile.  I should have never sold mine to begin with, but kids can
cause two-seaters to go the way of the dinosaurs.
Signature


"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown

Wound Up - 23 Mar 2005 08:41 GMT
>>I have an 86 Fiero GT with 42,000 original miles. Lots of fun to drive.
>>Honestly thinking of selling it however as I have 3 rides all
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> funmobile.  I should have never sold mine to begin with, but kids can
> cause two-seaters to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Signature

Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

Wound Up - 22 Mar 2005 06:51 GMT
>>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>  Another Fiero?

Whatever it is, the reports of it are as scintillating as always.

Signature

Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

Michael Johnson, PE - 22 Mar 2005 04:02 GMT
> And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling is
> everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.  It would
> be a shame to lose yet another RWD American performance car.

Make that a RWD AUSTRALIAN performance car, and an aging one at that.
GM did the GTO on the cheap and now they are paying for it.  They should
have developed a proper RWD platform and then based the Goat and many
other GM models on it.  Now they are screwed and have no one to blame
but themselves.  You think they would have learned from the Camaro that
just because you throw a killer engine/transmission into a mediocre,
dated chassis and charge a high price for it doesn't make for great
sales numbers.  We're lucky Ford updated the Mustang or it was headed to
the same happy hunting ground where the Camaro is parked.
Joe - 22 Mar 2005 14:32 GMT
>> And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling is
>> everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.  It
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> They should have developed a proper RWD platform and then based the
> Goat and many other GM models on it.

They were supposed to with the Zeta platform, but I guess not now...

> Now they are screwed and have
> no one to blame but themselves.  You think they would have learned
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> updated the Mustang or it was headed to the same happy hunting
> ground where the Camaro is parked.

Indeed.  But Ford better be careful - the Mustang isn't enough to save
an entire company.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Michael Johnson, PE - 22 Mar 2005 15:35 GMT
>>>And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling is
>>>everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.  It
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> They were supposed to with the Zeta platform, but I guess not now...

IMO they had better go with it quick.  They will lose another chuck of
market share if they don't offer an affordable, medium size RWD sedan,
as will Ford.

>>Now they are screwed and have
>>no one to blame but themselves.  You think they would have learned
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Indeed.  But Ford better be careful - the Mustang isn't enough to save
> an entire company.

I don't think either company is in imminent danger of going under.  It
is just a slow slide into obscurity at this point.  Or they could
eventually be bought by a foreign auto maker.  I can see why GM is
losing market share but Ford had made some very nice cars (many under
the SVT badge) the past several years.  To me, it doesn't make sense for
them to have such slow sales and low profitability.
Joe - 22 Mar 2005 18:44 GMT
>>>>And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling
>>>>is everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> of market share if they don't offer an affordable, medium size RWD
> sedan, as will Ford.

RWD is great, but I'm not sure that the general public is going to
demand it.  FWD Hondas and Toyotas are still selling like hotcakes.  
Ford's and GM's offerings are just weak.

>>>Now they are screwed and have
>>>no one to blame but themselves.  You think they would have learned
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It is just a slow slide into obscurity at this point.  Or they could
> eventually be bought by a foreign auto maker.

Agreed.  But remember AMC?

> I can see why GM is
> losing market share but Ford had made some very nice cars (many
> under the SVT badge) the past several years.  To me, it doesn't make
> sense for them to have such slow sales and low profitability.

As was pointed out in the other thread, GM's major problems are the
UAW and the fact that they have too many lackluster product lines.  GM
needs to consolidate, downsize, and get the UAW in line if they want
to be a force to be reckoned with.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Michael Johnson, PE - 22 Mar 2005 23:40 GMT
>>>>>And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling
>>>>>is everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> demand it.  FWD Hondas and Toyotas are still selling like hotcakes.  
> Ford's and GM's offerings are just weak.

Many of the upper end Japanese car are RWD too.  They have figured out
that FWD has become a liability due to increasing hp/torque levels
making it unfeasible.  I can't see why GM (and Ford to a lesser extent)
hasn't done the same.  I think the performance benefits of RWD have
eclipsed its liabilities.  Especially with the advent of traction
control, stability programs etc.

>>>>Now they are screwed and have
>>>>no one to blame but themselves.  You think they would have learned
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Agreed.  But remember AMC?

Although AMC wasn't near the size of Ford or GM.  Chrysler was close to
the edge though.

>>I can see why GM is
>>losing market share but Ford had made some very nice cars (many
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> needs to consolidate, downsize, and get the UAW in line if they want
> to be a force to be reckoned with.

I think GM's, Ford's (to a lesser extent) and UAW's management are in
collaboration with each other to keep promoting the status quo.  They
have been and still are riding the gravy train at the expense of the
workers and lower level managers.  It will be curious to see how long
the union members and stock holders let this continue.  If they wait too
long to change things then life as they know it will end.

> Joe
> Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
> Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Joe - 23 Mar 2005 02:51 GMT
>>>>>>And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling
>>>>>>is everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> benefits of RWD have eclipsed its liabilities.  Especially with the
> advent of traction control, stability programs etc.

Good points, Michael.  But apparently for whatever reason, both makers
have decided not to go that route with their "new" cars.

Imagine if Ford had put some research and engineering into the CV?  
With a stronger engine and better platform, it could've seriously
competed with the 300.  But not a snowball's chance in hell now.

>>>>>Now they are screwed and have
>>>>>no one to blame but themselves.  You think they would have
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Although AMC wasn't near the size of Ford or GM.  Chrysler was close
> to the edge though.

Right - the government bailed out Lee & Co.  Imagine if that didn't
happen?  I wonder who MB would have aligned with if Chrysler had gone
under...  Might be an altogether different automotive world now.

>>>I can see why GM is
>>>losing market share but Ford had made some very nice cars (many
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I think GM's, Ford's (to a lesser extent) and UAW's management are
> in collaboration with each other to keep promoting the status quo.

Abso-freakin'-lutely!

> They have been and still are riding the gravy train at the expense
> of the workers and lower level managers.

That gravy train's just about dried up now.

> It will be curious to see
> how long the union members and stock holders let this continue.  If
> they wait too long to change things then life as they know it will
> end.

Right.  I know they're all greedy bastids, but I hope for all our
sakes they don't kill off the whole thing.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Michael Johnson, PE - 23 Mar 2005 06:26 GMT
>>>>>>>And no one be happy, if the GTO get canceled.  While its styling
>>>>>>>is everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> With a stronger engine and better platform, it could've seriously
> competed with the 300.  But not a snowball's chance in hell now.

IMO, they would need to ditch the CV completely and design a new
chassis.  I doubt that will ever happen.  Personally, I think the only
reason Ford keeps it alive is to sell them to law enforcement.

>>>>>>Now they are screwed and have
>>>>>>no one to blame but themselves.  You think they would have
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> happen?  I wonder who MB would have aligned with if Chrysler had gone
> under...  Might be an altogether different automotive world now.

Overall I think it was a good thing to do.  It forced Chrysler to change
and they put pressure on GM and Ford to raise the bar for their cars.
IMO, the Mercedes merger was the best thing to happen to Chrysler.  Most
all their really good models have deep roots it Mercedes' chassis and/or
drive trains.  I doubt they could have done these cars on their own.

>>>>I can see why GM is
>>>>losing market share but Ford had made some very nice cars (many
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Right.  I know they're all greedy bastids, but I hope for all our
> sakes they don't kill off the whole thing.

I don't think GM will be able to turn it around anytime soon.  The have
no direction or vision across the board.  They have a few bright spots
like the new Vette and especially the Z06 but most of their models are
bland as milk toast.  This even applies to the GTO.  I think Ford has
some good models and are at least forward thinking.  Things like them
offering a hybrid Escape, redesigning the Mustang, the quality of
engineering in their SUV's shows they are at least trying to be
creative.  Sooner or later it should pay off for them.  We can't accuse
them of being static like GM appears to be.
ZombyWoof - 22 Mar 2005 05:24 GMT
>GM is hurting, folks.  Seems development dollars are at a premium at
>the world's largest automaker.  After a few years of giving the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>everything everyone hoped for, the car is sweet mechanically.  It would
>be a shame to lose yet another RWD American performance car.

It wouldn't be the loss of an American performance car.  
>----
>By Ed Garsten
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
>Patrick
>'93 Cobra

Signature

"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown

one80out@hotmail.com - 22 Mar 2005 17:49 GMT
GM's problem is not about whether it has a new "premium" rear drive
platform or not.  Honda and Toyota have no rear-drive sedans, yet the
25% market  share that's missing from GM's former 50% has mostly gone
to those brands.  GM's problem is that it's a stranger in its own
country.  Anyone younger than 30  has little to no experience growing
up with GM products.  So GM has to start from scratch with that age
group, with desireable new  CARS.

That's what's most  disappointing about this news story, is that GM is
once again retreating from a market segment.  Now the segment is CARS
as a whole.  The development dollars are going into trucks, SUV's, and
more trucks.  With Toyota and Nissan already selling full-size trucks
and SUV's, and even Honda getting into the game, the retreat into the
trucks/SUV fortress will be yet another Alamo.

180 Out
Joe - 22 Mar 2005 18:46 GMT
one80out@hotmail.com wrote in news:1111510171.710999.172850
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> GM's problem is not about whether it has a new "premium" rear drive
> platform or not.  Honda and Toyota have no rear-drive sedans, yet the
> 25% market  share that's missing from GM's former 50% has mostly gone
> to those brands.

Agreed, except that DC is getting their cut as well.

> GM's problem is that it's a stranger in its own
> country.  Anyone younger than 30  has little to no experience growing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> 180 Out

As I just replied to Michael, I think GM's problems are (a) too many
lackluster product lines, and (b) the UAW.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
 
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