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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / June 2005

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Finally chose the engine for my 68 coupe!

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Thomas Cameron - 24 Jun 2005 05:28 GMT
Well, I have been going back and forth like a pendulum - do I rebuild the
289?  Do I just go nuts and drop a 460 in there?  Do I build a 351W
stroker?  ARGH!

So I thought I had finally settled on a 351W with a PAW Automotive stroker
kit, taking it out to 420 cubes.  I was referred to a Mustangs- and
Fords-only bone yard in Temple, Texas (I am in Austin).  I called them up,
told them I wanted a 351W bare block to start the project, and also
scored the complete front disc brakes off a 1980 Grenada cheap in the
process.

So this morning I was supposed to drive up, and I called them and asked if
there was any chance the block I was getting was from a 1994 or newer
vehicle, i.e. a roller motor.  He said, "No, it's a 1970 block.  But," he
says, "I have a complete 1994 Ford Lightning engine for sale" (from the
oil pan to the fuel injection, with computer and complete wiring harness).
So I look it up. Hrm... 351W, GT40 heads, roller motor, fuel injection,
plenty of horsepower and gobs of torque.  So I ask him a bunch of
questions, and find out that the engine was running around a year ago when
the Lightning was wrecked, and has been in a covered warehouse ever since.

He also refers me to a local mechanic who put one of these in a '67 coupe,
and told me to call him.  I call, and the guy says that it is not a hard
swap, all you need is a high pressure fuel pump and lines.

I ask how much for the engine, and he tells me $2600.  So, there's a new
(to me) fuel-injected Lightning 351W on a stand in the garage!

I think it will be really slick - a fuel-injected 351W roller motor with
GT40 heads in a 1968 Coupe.  I am also seriously considering the Ford
Racing blower for the Lightning - at 6psi boost, it pumps up horsepower
and torque by about 30% according to the Ford Racing web site.  And it's
only $2050.  Hell, I was planning on spending $4000-$5000 on the stroker
motor.  If I spend the same amount on this engine and the blower I will
probably wind up with around 375-400 ponies and a more reliable engine.

Thoughts?

Thomas
one80out@hotmail.com - 24 Jun 2005 14:53 GMT
> Well, I have been going back and forth like a pendulum - do I rebuild the
> 289?  Do I just go nuts and drop a 460 in there?  Do I build a 351W
> stroker?  ARGH!

> I ask how much for the engine, and he tells me $2600.  So, there's a new
> (to me) fuel-injected Lightning 351W on a stand in the garage!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Thoughts?

I think you'll have more hp than 400.  Sounds like a good direction to
go.  And you'll surely never see another one like it, which is a big
plus.

180 Out
Thomas Cameron - 24 Jun 2005 20:26 GMT
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:53:28 -0700, one80out wrote:

> I think you'll have more hp than 400.  

Me, too.  I'm just trying to keep from getting my hopes up too high.

> Sounds like a good direction to
> go.  And you'll surely never see another one like it, which is a big
> plus.

Yeah, it will definitely be unique!

Thomas
Mark C. - 24 Jun 2005 19:02 GMT
How many miles on the lightining moter? Try getting it running first and
then upgrade to the blower. You may like it naturally aspirated and can
spend the money on better brakes, etc. If you get it running as is, you'll
be able to work out the bugs before installing a blower. Remember murphy's
law. Just my opinion.

Signature

Mark
--
"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who once said, "I drank
what?". " Val Kilmer in Real Genius.

> Well, I have been going back and forth like a pendulum - do I rebuild the
> 289?  Do I just go nuts and drop a 460 in there?  Do I build a 351W
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Thomas
Thomas Cameron - 24 Jun 2005 20:25 GMT
> How many miles on the lightining moter?

He said it was about 40K miles.  I'm going to do compression and oil
pressure tests off the bat to make sure the engine is OK.

> Try getting it running first and
> then upgrade to the blower.

Yeah, I probably will.  I have a budget for this project, but blowing it
all up front worries me.

> You may like it naturally aspirated and can
> spend the money on better brakes, etc. If you get it running as is, you'll
> be able to work out the bugs before installing a blower.

Yeah, good point.  I *really* want to get the suspension worked out, too.

> Remember murphy's
> law. Just my opinion.

Heck, it's not opinion - it's the LAW.  :-)  Murphy was an optimist.

Thomas
.boB - 24 Jun 2005 19:41 GMT
> Well, I have been going back and forth like a pendulum - do I rebuild the
> 289?  Do I just go nuts and drop a 460 in there?  Do I build a 351W
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Thomas
   Score!   That's going to be a heck of a motor.  What about the trans?  The
Lightening AOD would fit in there very easily, and would be a blast to drive.

Signature

.boB
1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged!
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1966 FFR Cobra - Ongoing project

Thomas Cameron - 24 Jun 2005 20:23 GMT
>     Score!   That's going to be a heck of a motor.  What about the trans?  The
> Lightening AOD would fit in there very easily, and would be a blast to drive.

He wanted $700 for the AOD, and I have no idea if it will fit in the '68
coupe's tunnel.  I actually *want* a T56 six-speed manual, but will
probably go with the C4 until it breaks.

Thomas
one80out@hotmail.com - 24 Jun 2005 21:56 GMT
A T56 will definitely require tunnel surgery.  I don't believe I've
heard of any need for that with an AOD.  I don't think $700 is much of
a bargain for an AOD.  Those things are not rare, and these days
they're not young either. I would think about the 4R70W instead.
Here's one guy's web page on his '66's conversion:
http://www.blueriver.net/~finite/project_od.htm

180 Out
Thomas Cameron - 24 Jun 2005 22:06 GMT
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:56:09 -0700, one80out wrote:

> A T56 will definitely require tunnel surgery.  

Really???  I was under the impression that the T5 and T56 would bolt right
in!

> I don't believe I've
> heard of any need for that with an AOD.  I don't think $700 is much of
> a bargain for an AOD.  Those things are not rare, and these days
> they're not young either.

Yeah, I wasn't interested in it at that price.  If the T56 won't fit, I am
leaning towards a C6 then.

> I would think about the 4R70W instead.
> Here's one guy's web page on his '66's conversion:
> http://www.blueriver.net/~finite/project_od.htm

Wow - that looks like a pretty serious, expensive job.  I am not sure I
want to go that route...  I was really hoping for a bolt-in, avoiding any
more fabrication.

Thomas
one80out@hotmail.com - 24 Jun 2005 22:38 GMT
Yeah, a T-5 will go in  with very little trouble, and the adaptors are
readily available.  I'm putting one in my kids' '65 as soon as I can
round up the parts. But other than the fact they both have an input
shaft and an output shaft, a T-56 has no similarity whatsoever to a
T-5.

Here's a website about getting a Tremec 3550 into a '65
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/Pages/Tremec.html

Check this photo for an idea of how much sheetmetal needed to come out:
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/Pages/Tremec014.jpg

A T56 is bigger than a Tremec.

180 Out
66 6F HCS - 25 Jun 2005 01:22 GMT
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:56:09 -0700, one80out wrote:
>
>> A T56 will definitely require tunnel surgery.
>
> Really???  I was under the impression that the T5 and T56 would bolt right
> in!

A T56 will bolt right in, but the pinion angle will be WAY off and will
cause a horrendous shaking. To get the pinion angle right you have to
basically fab a new tranny tunnel to get the tail of the tranny up higher.
Do-able, but a true PITA.

> Yeah, I wasn't interested in it at that price.  If the T56 won't fit, I am
> leaning towards a C6 then.

Eesh, why? Yeah a C6 is bullet proof, but the AOD's are pretty strong and
you keep OD. You can put the 4R70W gearset in an AOD and get all the
advantages of the wide ratio and you dump the whole brain box PITA.
Signature

Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/

Spike - 25 Jun 2005 03:23 GMT
>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:56:09 -0700, one80out wrote:
>
>Eesh, why? Yeah a C6 is bullet proof, but the AOD's are pretty strong and
>you keep OD. You can put the 4R70W gearset in an AOD and get all the
>advantages of the wide ratio and you dump the whole brain box PITA.

I want to go the AOD route for the highway driving, but I'd like to
keep some pep.

Is there an information source for what you're talking about with the
4R70W? and will it drop in to a 65 FB 289 w/C4?  

The outfit I have been talking to has been pushing the AODE out of a
late model Mustang GT, which is going to require shortening the
driveshaft, new crossmember, tv cable, etc.

Hey! Spikey Likes IT!
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8"
w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16
66 6F HCS - 25 Jun 2005 12:19 GMT
> I want to go the AOD route for the highway driving, but I'd like to
> keep some pep.

You keep the "pep" with the wideset gears from the 4R70W and nearly the
strength of the C6. You running more than 450 lb/ft torque? AOD is fine for
that.

> Is there an information source for what you're talking about with the
> 4R70W? and will it drop in to a 65 FB 289 w/C4?

It's a straight forward swap. I heard about it from the guy who built the C4
in my Ranchero when I asked him about putting an AOD in my '69. I've seen
this info on the 'net too, but can't remember where.

> The outfit I have been talking to has been pushing the AODE out of a
> late model Mustang GT, which is going to require shortening the
> driveshaft, new crossmember, tv cable, etc.

Well, you'd have to do that with the AOD also, you just don't need th
brainbox that you HAVE to have for the AODE. The AODE is n't really much
different than the AOD other than it's electronically controlled.
Signature

Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/

Spike - 25 Jun 2005 17:48 GMT
I'd prefer, I think - unless someone can show a good reason why not -
to stay away from electronic stuff. After years of fighting one thing
or another with the Firebird....

>> I want to go the AOD route for the highway driving, but I'd like to
>> keep some pep.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>brainbox that you HAVE to have for the AODE. The AODE is n't really much
>different than the AOD other than it's electronically controlled.

Hey! Spikey Likes IT!
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8"
w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16
66 6F HCS - 25 Jun 2005 21:32 GMT
> I'd prefer, I think - unless someone can show a good reason why not -
> to stay away from electronic stuff. After years of fighting one thing
> or another with the Firebird....

Exactly why the AOD would be the more desirable than the AODE.
Signature

Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/

Thomas Cameron - 25 Jun 2005 22:14 GMT
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:56:09 -0700, one80out wrote:

> A T56 will definitely require tunnel surgery.  I don't believe I've
> heard of any need for that with an AOD.  I don't think $700 is much of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> 180 Out

Like this one?  It's 1bout a grand, shipped.  Is that a good price?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7982012847

Thomas
66 6F HCS - 24 Jun 2005 21:06 GMT
> the guy says that it is not a hard
> swap, all you need is a high pressure fuel pump and lines.

It's not THAT easy. There are some things that have to be modified on the
harness for the 'puter to "see" things that you won't have on the '68. Plus,
you'll have to run O2 sensors in your exhaust, which means drilling and
adding the O2 bungs into your headers. You'll also have to plumb a return
line back to the gas tank and then figure out where you're going to have the
return line return to (through the sending unit usually). If ONLY it truly
WAS that easy.
Signature

Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/

Thomas Cameron - 24 Jun 2005 21:29 GMT
>> the guy says that it is not a hard
>> swap, all you need is a high pressure fuel pump and lines.
>
> It's not THAT easy. There are some things that have to be modified on the
> harness for the 'puter to "see" things that you won't have on the '68.

My understanding is that Painless can either sell you a complete
wiring harness or modify yours so that everything will work together.

> Plus,
> you'll have to run O2 sensors in your exhaust, which means drilling and
> adding the O2 bungs into your headers.

Ugh - hadn't thought of that.

> You'll also have to plumb a return
> line back to the gas tank and then figure out where you're going to have the
> return line return to (through the sending unit usually).

Yeah, we're looking at cutting a high pressure fuel pump out of some other
fuel tank and welding it into the Mustang's tank.  Nothing like a little
fabrication work!

> If ONLY it truly
> WAS that easy.

Nothing, but nothing is ever *that* easy.  :-)

But it ought to be a beast when all is said and done!

Thomas
Spike - 25 Jun 2005 01:07 GMT
Painless does have a variety of harnesses to fit various adaptations.
They are pricey. There are some other wiring companies which will
either custom a set, or have sets ready or adaptable for less. In one
case the owner of the local custom rod shop advised me that I could
save about $400 with other than Painless. It's been a number of months
and I don't recall what brand he uses. You might try a Google search.

Just a thought, but....
You might also wish to do some added research with Windsor-Fox
www.windsorfox.com, and any others you can find. I haven't looked
lately, but check the Tech sections of www.mustangmonthly.com ,and
www.mustangandfords.com for related articles. Take whatever you can
find and plan out in advance what you need to do in what order. Some
of these have step by step with photos you can download.

>>> the guy says that it is not a hard
>>> swap, all you need is a high pressure fuel pump and lines.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>Thomas

Hey! Spikey Likes IT!
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8"
w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16
66 6F HCS - 25 Jun 2005 01:11 GMT
>> You'll also have to plumb a return
>> line back to the gas tank and then figure out where you're going to have
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Yeah, we're looking at cutting a high pressure fuel pump out of some other
> fuel tank and welding it into the Mustang's tank.

No, no, no. Don't waste time that way. Just buy a pump that mounts to the
inside of your rear framerail. that way you only have to rerun some plumbing
with zero mods to the tank itself. Plus there are a few places that will
modify your harness for a fee, but cheaper than buying a new one that's
already modded. Look here...
http://tinyurl.com/dnr5g
http://tinyurl.com/95cag
Signature

Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/

Thomas Cameron - 25 Jun 2005 22:08 GMT
> No, no, no. Don't waste time that way. Just buy a pump that mounts to the
> inside of your rear framerail. that way you only have to rerun some plumbing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> http://tinyurl.com/dnr5g
> http://tinyurl.com/95cag

Holy crap!  That is an awesome couple of pages, thanks a million!

Thomas
Hank - 25 Jun 2005 00:21 GMT
> So this morning I was supposed to drive up, and I called them and asked if
> there was any chance the block I was getting was from a 1994 or newer
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Thoughts?

 Should be an awesome ride. I put a 351W in a 67 Fastback.
It was snug and filled the engine bay nicely without any
cutting or bending. I'd probably be happy without the
blower.

-

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