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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / July 2005

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HEY ENVIRO-LEFTIES;  How about a little challenge???

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RichA - 29 Jun 2005 03:44 GMT
A Canadian firm has released a new catalytic converter for cars
that removes almost all pollutants from auto exhausts.  It will take
a stream from a regular converter and remove a further 98% of the
pollutants.  A regular converter costs $300 to the industry.  This one
costs $1400.  Do you think all the Hollywood phonies will be putting
these on their cars, to show what good enviro-citizens they are??
Not likely. You know why?  Because you can't SEE it, the way you can
a Toyota Prius, so there's nothing for the average Hollywoodite to
parade around and preen about and boast about what great
environmentalists they are.

How about getting Kyoto to MANDATE putting it on all cars produced
world-wide?  Not likely EITHER since the CHINESE and INDIANS (2.3
billion people) don't even have REGULAR (that have been on American
cars since 1976) catalytic converters.

My car cost about $40,000.  If it means spending $2800 (cost of two
new converters) to outfit it with a device that renders it less
polluting than a cigarette lighter, I'm all for it. PROVIDED it is
mandated that ALL cars produced have it from NOW on.

The gauntlet is down, phony enviro-leftists, Hollywood trendies and
Asiatics;  Pick it up, I DARE you! PROVE you aren't just anti-Western
CLOWNS, that the Kyoto Accord isn't just a FRAUD designed to shift
wealth and jobs east and that you DO care about air pollution.
6whiteboomer77@hotmail.com - 29 Jun 2005 04:32 GMT
>A Canadian firm has released a new catalytic converter for cars
>that removes almost all pollutants from auto exhausts.  It will take
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>CLOWNS, that the Kyoto Accord isn't just a FRAUD designed to shift
>wealth and jobs east and that you DO care about air pollution.

pssssssssst rich
all the converters in the world will make the exhaust clean

look at the by product of the converter  CO2
whats responable for globel warming

who just fell for the converter sales pitch
great ya just added to globel warming

FOCTARD

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pawn - 29 Jun 2005 04:55 GMT
> A Canadian firm has released a new catalytic converter for cars
> that removes almost all pollutants from auto exhausts.  It will take
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> CLOWNS, that the Kyoto Accord isn't just a FRAUD designed to shift
> wealth and jobs east and that you DO care about air pollution.

You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter
does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust.  Here's a hint:
perfect, clean combustion results in CO2 and H2O.  Kyoto, as flawed as
it is, is about reducing CO2 emissions.
Spike - 29 Jun 2005 06:14 GMT
>You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter
>does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust.  Here's a hint:
>perfect, clean combustion results in CO2 and H2O.  Kyoto, as flawed as
>it is, is about reducing CO2 emissions.

That may be, but Kyoto exempts some of the worst polluting nations
because they fall into the developing nation category, while
industrialized nations, especially the US is expected to cut
pollutants enough to cover for the developing nations like China,
India, etc. Screw that.
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

Ask not for whom the bell tolls,
and you'll pay only the station to station rate.

Inside every golden harlot beats a heart.

A penny saved... is a waste.

It's not the principle...
it's how much interest you can get.

Tis a wise man who knows on which side
his broad is bettered.

"Damn the icebergs! Full speed ahead! We're gonna
break that record on this run!" said the captain
of the Titanic

He who is flogged by fate, and laughs the louder...
is a masochist!

If you can keep your head
while all about are losing theirs...
you're a frigid chick

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech

"Once there existed a bright shining star that was
known as Camelot." A time in America when personal
accomplishments were found in serving one's nation, not
turning one's back on it; when honor was revered, and
loyalty to a common goal was a virtue. Like the Phoenix, the Camelot
that was America will again rise from the ashes of
those who would rewrite it's history, reinterpret it's
founding principles, and relish in dividing it's people
rather than in uniting them.
ZombyWoof - 29 Jun 2005 14:34 GMT
>>You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter
>>does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust.  Here's a hint:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>pollutants enough to cover for the developing nations like China,
>India, etc. Screw that.

Of course screw that, that is why our government said screw that.
>Spike
>1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>founding principles, and relish in dividing it's people
>rather than in uniting them.

Signature

"Either kill me or take me as I am,
because I'll be damned if I ever change..."

The Marquis de Sade

pawn - 29 Jun 2005 22:28 GMT
>>You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter
>>does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust.  Here's a hint:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> pollutants enough to cover for the developing nations like China,
> India, etc. Screw that.

Just to be clear, I believe Kyoto to be a laughable attempt at
international wealth redistribution, which was fraudulently sold to the
weak minded and weak kneed, using junk science recklessly endorsed by a
"scientific consensus" (not one entity in the entire world verified
Mann's "hockey stick" theory) by tree hugging, tie-dye beret wearing
socialists, more concerned with black and white ideology than facts,
sense or reality.  But a catalytic converter, of any type, won't help
achieve Kyoto greenhouse gas emission reduction goals.

There, now I'm clear.  :)
rw - 30 Jun 2005 03:53 GMT
> Just to be clear, I believe Kyoto to be a laughable attempt at
> international wealth redistribution, which was fraudulently sold to the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> There, now I'm clear.  :)

Here, here! I'm what some might call an enviro-lefty, but the Kyoto
Protocol sucked the hind teat. Any treaty that lets the Chinese, for
example, go about their business as usual because they're a "developing
country" is absurd.

However, I didn't agree with the high-handed way the Bush Administration
just walked away from the negotiating table. I think they're in denial
about the scientific evidence of the seriousness of the problem, which
is overwhelming.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

pawn - 30 Jun 2005 04:36 GMT
> I think they're in denial
> about the scientific evidence of the seriousness of the problem, which
> is overwhelming.

Please elaborate.  Seriousness of what problem?  Global warming (which
could be man made, but has a much more established natural cyclical
trend) is a given, so please be creative, or ar least relevant.
Spike - 30 Jun 2005 05:30 GMT
It used to be global cooling and threats of a new ice age, and now
it's global warming and rising seas. There are scare stories of what
will happen when the tropical forests are gone, while oceanographers
claim the sea produces more breathable atmosphere than the rain
forests. Forestry officials claim there are more trees in the US today
than there were 100 or even 200 years ago (National Geographic
agrees). Both cause by pollution by humans, yet three volcanic
eruptions eclipses what man produces. They say the Arctic Ocean ice is
melting faster, and glaciers are receding, and at the same time ice
layers are increasing faster in the Antarctic. So, even the scientists
can't get it right. And measurements have not been recorded long
enough to KNOW if this is cyclic or something new. As for Kyoto and
the walking out, what else to do when the cards are already stacked
against you? Sit there and cave in? Sit there and be bored with people
whose minds are already decided? Or walk out? That's when they get the
message that you're serious about not agreeing with what they propose.

>> I think they're in denial
>> about the scientific evidence of the seriousness of the problem, which
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>could be man made, but has a much more established natural cyclical
>trend) is a given, so please be creative, or ar least relevant.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 30 Jun 2005 06:41 GMT
>> I think they're in denial about the scientific evidence of the
>> seriousness of the problem, which is overwhelming.
>
> Please elaborate.  Seriousness of what problem?  Global warming (which
> could be man made, but has a much more established natural cyclical
> trend) is a given, so please be creative, or ar least relevant.

Sorry if I'm not relevant, pawn. I'm putting a Mustang reference in this
post.

Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, for about 200 years
more or less, we've been polluting our atmosphere with not only CO2 but
with also with lots of other noxious crap. The CO2 level has risen
dramatically and inexorably, and it's accelerating.

We don't understand what the consequences will be. We're not that smart.
It could be global warming, or it could be radical global cooling. The
system is nonlinear and unpredictable. Whichever, the consequences will
likely be horrific. We're like a colony of monkeys poking and prodding
at a complex machine, pulling out parts and jamming in sticks and
watching with ignorant curiosity what happens. But the machine we're
f.cking with is the only planet we live on. Imagine letting a chimpanzee
work on your vintage Mustang.

Any rational look at the recent history of our climate (like over the
past 100,000 years or so), even ignoring human-caused problems, makes
one fear for the future of our children. We are very complacent. The
universe is a cold, hard, unforgiving place. If we don't look out for
ourselves, be assured that no one else will be looking out for us.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Spike - 30 Jun 2005 20:42 GMT
I'd say, everyone, except trolls like hurc, are relevant, and I
imagine even they serve some purpose at some point.

While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we
should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound
reason for panicked knee jerk reaction when science can't make up it's
mind which way the wind is blowing, or whether it is man-made or a
natural, perhaps cyclic, condition. Even their predictions can't
establish solid time factors. Does mankind have a decade to fix
things, or a million years?

Perhaps less worry should be placed upon pollution than on population
growth in developing nations especially, as well as the rest. Less
people, less resources to consume, less need for manufacturing, so
less pollution. And less need for sheep and cows polluting the air
with their noxious methane gas eruptions. In turn, more room on the
roads for our Mustangs to run wild and free without all the pollution
control crap that robs us of power, coupled with more available fuel
for a much longer period of time. : )

>>> I think they're in denial about the scientific evidence of the
>>> seriousness of the problem, which is overwhelming.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>universe is a cold, hard, unforgiving place. If we don't look out for
>ourselves, be assured that no one else will be looking out for us.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 30 Jun 2005 22:42 GMT
> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we
> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound
> reason for panicked knee jerk reaction when science can't make up it's
> mind which way the wind is blowing, or whether it is man-made or a
> natural, perhaps cyclic, condition.

You're wrong that, Spike. Peer-reviewed scientific opinion is unanimous
that man-made green-house-gas pollution is affecting the climate. It's
completely consistent with common sense if you look at the trend for CO2
in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution:

http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/co2_change.html

We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

slimestickland34@hotmail.com - 01 Jul 2005 00:03 GMT
>> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we
>> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil.

your wasting your time rw
spike is a baby killer from nam and a pigboy
he is incapable of free thought
he only understands orders and what the govt
tells him

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Spike - 01 Jul 2005 01:50 GMT
Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a
number of people in the scientific communities disagree with their
peers. Sometimes in toto; sometimes on point of a thesis. Even among
those who support the contention, a large enough number are in
disagreement as to the extent of man's impact. Those are the ones who
are most open in an admission that science is not so able to make such
determinations with absolute certainty. So, it's not a case of I am
wrong, IMHO, but that I disagree with the ones you happen to agree
with. I think that there is room for more than one viewpoint, as
members of the scientific communities have shown by their open
disagreements. The concensus may support you position, and yet there
have been past conditions where the concensus was totally in error.

It just might be that to jump in with both feet and try to correct a
problem, mankind has proven on many occasions that corrective action
is worse than no action, or taking a slower, more subtle approach.
Killing a cockroach with a nuclear weapon doesn't always come out the
way it is expected.

Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold
opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be
right.

>> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we
>> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
William Claude Dukenfield - 01 Jul 2005 02:00 GMT
What Journals?

Apparently not New Scientist, Science, Nature, or National Geographic.

>Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a
>number of people in the scientific communities disagree with their
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be
>right.

{snip}
William Claude Dukenfield - 01 Jul 2005 03:06 GMT
>Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a

Here's a good article on the subject:

Get off the fence over global warming

From issue 2505 of New Scientist magazine, 25 June 2005, page 25
Mark Lynas

CLIMATE change is not a scientific issue. No, really, I'm serious. It
is far more important than that. It forces us to make fundamental
choices about our most basic belief systems. If policy-makers and the
public could forget about the science, we'd have a much better chance
of averting this looming catastrophe before it's too late.

Here's the problem. Treating climate change purely as a scientific
issue obscures the real points of contention, which are political and
economic. I once spent hours debating with a climate sceptic about why
the glaciers on Kilimanjaro are retreating, only to discover that his
real beef was that he believed all environmentalists were socialists
in disguise, whose real agenda was to destroy capitalism. In other
words, we weren't really arguing about Kilimanjaro at all. Wouldn't it
be a lot more straightforward to get this kind of disagreement out in
the open? Climate change is an emotional debate conducted in
entirely the wrong intellectual language.

A second problem of dealing with climate change solely in scientific
terms is that it gives sceptics and contrarians an enormous advantage.
"The science is still uncertain," they cry - and they are right. The
science is uncertain. If it wasn't uncertain, it wouldn't be science.
As Karl Popper put it, a theory that is not falsifiable cannot by
definition be scientific.

But this dictum does not apply in the policy arena. Mere mention of
the word "uncertainty" is enough to send any rational politician
scurrying for cover. The same goes for the general public, for whom
uncertainty will always be a reason not to act, especially if the
consequences of acting are likely to be painful. Global warming
sceptics are adept at invoking uncertainty to delay action. No more
than a handful of climatologists are sceptics on the question of
climate change; most sceptics aren't experts in any scientific sense.
But this is a subtlety lost on both the media, who want a spokesperson
for each side, and the general public, who simply want someone they
can believe in.

Worse still, when a journalist rings up a climate scientist for their
opinion on the issue, few oblige. Most either come over all shy or
ramble on about their latest graph. Many in the media and the public,
and even among the world's political elite, are all desperate for the
scientific establishment to show leadership on climate change. But
when the ball is passed in their direction, the scientists kick it
right back, saying, "That's a question for policy-makers. We couldn't
possibly comment."

Hence the oft-quoted "demand" from the UN sponsored Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) for 60 per cent cuts in emissions.
Journalists are so desperate to write a paragraph beginning, "The
world's scientists have called for 60 per cent reductions..." that
they have to put words along these lines into the IPCC's mouth. The
IPCC, of course, doesn't "do" policy and has never said any such
thing.

But what about scientific objectivity. Isn't it important for
scientists to protect their professional integrity by staying
neutral in policy debates? This is a much more serious concern.
Objectivity is crucial in the scientific process. The public tends to
trust scientists when they are not seen as beholden to political or
economic interests.

But scientific objectivity should not condemn intelligent scientists
to the political equivalent of a Trappist vow of silence. If our
future is under threat, scientists have a duty to say so. Where, for
example, is the volcanologist who refuses on the grounds of
"neutrality" to warn of impending eruptions? Or the tropical
meteorologist who sits tight-lipped with his models and satellite data
while a Category 5 storm spins towards a vulnerable Caribbean
coastline?

I think there is something sinister going on. The scientific community
has been intimidated into neutrality by environmentalism's powerful
opponents. In the US, the IPCC is already pilloried by conservatives
for daring to discuss climate change at all, and its yelps of
objectivity are seen by its opponents as signs of weakness.

A few scientists have made political statements: Robert May, president
of the Royal Society, and former IPCC co-chair John Houghton, are
examples. It is time others followed their lead. Climate scientists
need to accept their role in the real world. As part of the small
proportion of the population who actually understand the dire
situation we are in, scientists have a moral responsibility to help us
find a way out of this crisis. Environmental campaigners have tried
and failed to do it. Now it's someone else's turn.

Environmentalists are like Cassandra before the fall of Troy: destined
to tell the truth but never to be believed. Climate scientists are
still burdened with the opposite problem. They are much more likely to
be believed, but they cannot quite bring themselves to tell the truth.

Mark Lynas is a writer, campaigner and commentator on climate change
issues (www.marklynas.org). He is the author of High Tide: How climate
crisis is engulfing our planet (HarperPerennial, 2005)
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 04:39 GMT
It's so nice to live in a world where some believe that their answer
is the only answer and that any other opinion couldn't possibly be
even part right. Among many others throughout history, I'll bet
Columbus was glad to find that someone was willing to keep an open
mind, and I believe he was in a minority.

A recent report by National Geographic in coverage of the Eskimo
plight brought about by disappearing and thinning ice, also reported
that ice was piling up faster and thicker in the Antarctic. Should I
expect it to be removed from your list of approved journals since that
would seem to be a minority view.

It was not that many decades ago when the fear was global winter and
it was the minority in the scientific community who rejected that and
opted for the greenhouse affect. Now they are a majority and the
global winter supporters are the minority. Both have held forth reams
of supporting documentation. What's next?

It is my personal view that the final evidence is not in, and until it
is, I think I have a right to continue to examine and weigh the
evidence presented by both sides without being derided for holding an
opposing view.  I consider that no more fence sitting than I would
when weighing the evidence presented by both sides in a death penalty
case.... for surely, whether it be a natural course or created by man,
death of the planet could be the end result... or perhaps just the end
of man and the rise of a new order of life.

And I did state that mankind should attempt to lessen it's impact upon
the environment, not continue to do damage to it, whether that impact
is great or small.

At least I believe I have extended the courtesy to acknowledge that my
view might be wrong, and to keep an open mind and not condemn those
who don't happen to agree with my views. How often through history has
a minority view been found to be the correct one over the majority
view?

I don't look down on you for not agreeing with me. Would that you
might grant me, or anyone else, the same consideration, even if I
should be wrong.  Some of man's greatest advances have been born of
differing views.  

Essentially, your response appears to be, and correct me if I am
wrong, that all opposition to your position is due to personal bias
rather than attempting to take a balanced view; or for self
aggrandizing political motivations; and similar justifications for
disagreement with what you consider the main stream view.

You cite an author who has a stake in what he writes for to state
something opposite to his book would likely hurt sales. Yet, you must
hold a view that he could not possible be biased.  Is it  only those
journals and authors whose view agrees with yours which are
acceptable? Is that the world we have come to? Should we begin banning
and burning books which might suggest an alternative view to global
warming?

>>Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>choices about our most basic belief systems. If policy-makers and the
>public could forget about the science, we'd have a much better chance

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
William Claude Dukenfield - 01 Jul 2005 17:53 GMT
It appears you didn't read them, the increase of snow/ice at the
Antarctic (center) is due to warming increasing the humidity in the
air there. The ice fields on the edges of the Antarctic are shrinking.

National Geographic has many, many, articles that show the fact of
global warming. Read it, don't quote Rush L.

As for impartiality, the name of the thread covers that.

{snip}
>A recent report by National Geographic in coverage of the Eskimo
>plight brought about by disappearing and thinning ice, also reported
>that ice was piling up faster and thicker in the Antarctic. Should I
>expect it to be removed from your list of approved journals since that
>would seem to be a minority view.
{/snip}
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 19:48 GMT
I don't listen to Rush! He's too one sided and rabid. And I DO read,
not skim. A LOT of different sources. Thanks.

>It appears you didn't read them, the increase of snow/ice at the
>Antarctic (center) is due to warming increasing the humidity in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>would seem to be a minority view.
>{/snip}

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 01 Jul 2005 04:14 GMT
> Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold
> opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be
> right.

Whatever, Spike. Keep drinking that Kool Aid, and don't bother thinking
for yourself.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

pawn - 01 Jul 2005 06:21 GMT
>> Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold
>> opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be
>> right.
>
> Whatever, Spike. Keep drinking that Kool Aid, and don't bother thinking
> for yourself.

Beautiful misdirection.  But when you have a consensus, why have a
point?  Right?
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 20:04 GMT
Don't bother thinking for myself? What? And accept whatever I'm told,
without question, as if it were the gospel according to St rw? That
seems a strange position for one so sure of their views to take. To
add insult rather than accept that others have views which differ,
does nothing to induce someone to accept those views held.

I've listened to your views, as I have others, and respect them. That
doesn't mean I must agree with them. Nor does it mean that you should
insult me because my views are different from yours. I suppose there
are those people who just can't stand it when someone does not agree
with their views.

And it's ice tea....

>> Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold
>> opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be
>> right.
>
>Whatever, Spike. Keep drinking that Kool Aid, and don't bother thinking
>for yourself.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce
Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 01 Jul 2005 21:16 GMT
> Don't bother thinking for myself? What? And accept whatever I'm told,
> without question, as if it were the gospel according to St rw? That
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> are those people who just can't stand it when someone does not agree
> with their views.

You're right, Spike. I spoke out of turn and I apologize.

What is frustrating to me, however, about your arguments, on this and
some other topics, is that you seem to assume there are always two
opposed but equally valid positions, and then you feel free to take the
position that suits you personal best interest as you perceive it. And
then if someone criticises your position you cry "foul." It comes across
to me as a way of avoiding facing up to harsh realities. Gas prices
increasing? It must be OPEC's fault. Global warming? Not enough
evidence. Kerry releases complete military records with no blemishes?
Stop criticizing Bush.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Spike - 02 Jul 2005 04:12 GMT
>> Don't bother thinking for myself? What? And accept whatever I'm told,
>> without question, as if it were the gospel according to St rw? That
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>You're right, Spike. I spoke out of turn and I apologize.
I accept your apology. although I did not ask for one, nor was one
expected. I give you more respect for having done so.

Perhaps you will consider that we likely come from different times and
experiences, and therefore have different views. I acknowledge that
others' lives have not been identical to mine and that their views may
be different. I do not judge them as being absolutely wrong. I make
allowance for the possibility that they may be right. It's a matter of
respecting others as individuals with minds of their own.

>What is frustrating to me, however, about your arguments, on this and
>some other topics, is that you seem to assume there are always two
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>evidence. Kerry releases complete military records with no blemishes?
>Stop criticizing Bush.

Your frustration may be that I do not cave  in and simply accept
whatever I am told in some blind, mindless fashion. I like to dig and
find out for myself to the extent I can, and then make up my own mind.

I do not choose the position that serves my personal best interest. I
choose the position which I happen to believe, as I think you do. In
what manner would my personal interest be served? I am not an author
foisting a book upon the public. Nor do I gain from the rising price
of fuel. And Kerry's record, true or false, do not alter my life in
any way. Global warming? Do I gain if I am wrong and the world ends in
a runaway greenhouse effect? Do I gain if it ends by nuclear winter?

The circumstances you cited wherein we disagree, are no different than
this situation. If you will recall, I have never put you down for
having opposing views. I have simply indicated that I do not
particularly agree with them. In our exchanges, you will note that I
have always indicated the possibility that I might be wrong, something
you do not seem to be able to do.  

For example, at no time did I say that OPEC was solely responsible for
rising fuel prices. Nor did I say Kerry's records were false. I did
provide you with personal experience gleaned from within the military
establishment during and while serving in Vietnam, which might (notice
I said "might") explain why other members of his unit disagreed with
him. You absolutely rejected any such possibility, and flatly stated
that it was a bunch of men angry over Kerry's post Vietnam activities,
conducted in collusion with the GOP. As if the men from that unit were
not entitled to think on their own, nor think without bias. Yet, you
find no problem in attacking the President with nothing more for proof
than accusations, innuendo, and rumor.

As I have said to you over each exchange, I accept that you have
different views to which you are entitled. Did I not? And did I not
provide you with the benefit of my experience, which you rejected
without consideration? Much as you have accused me in the matter of
global warming?

I respect you for your beliefs, even though I disagree, whether in
whole or in part. Just as I respect others for their religious
beliefs, or their political beliefs. (My own brother was a draft
evader during Vietnam, and I still respect that he had the guts to
stand up for his convictions and to accept the punishment meted out
for his refusal, rather than to run and hide in a foreign country,
even as I was ducking bullets.  He in turn, has never put me down for
my convictions which took me there.)

From out of all this, perhaps you, and some others will look inward at
the way you react to those who disagree with you; to those who see
things differently, or are different in some way. Maybe you will see
that everyone is entitled to their own views, whether in your view
they are right or wrong, and that insults, rejection, argument,
browbeating, etc, does not reflect well on the one who denies them the
right to dissent.  If everyone were to be so understanding, there
might be a lot less conflict in the world, and people might be able to
better work together to solve the ills of the world.

I have yet to find reason to feel frustrated by your responses simply
because you disagree with me. Nor over the fact that you and some
others are so willing to attack my views, yet unwilling to accept
anyone who does not agree with yours. That's something you have to
live with. Who knows?  There might yet be some subject wherein we are
in total agreement.



Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
ZombyWoof - 01 Jul 2005 02:49 GMT
>> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we
>> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil.

Either everyone does the same oil change, or no one does.
Signature

"Either kill me or take me as I am,
because I'll be damned if I ever change..."

The Marquis de Sade

pawn - 01 Jul 2005 06:19 GMT
> You're wrong that, Spike. Peer-reviewed scientific opinion is unanimous
> that man-made green-house-gas pollution is affecting the climate. It's
> completely consistent with common sense if you look at the trend for CO2
> in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution:

Junk plain and simple.  You're simply spewing the same crap the sprout
eaters have been blabbing to the media for years.  There was never any
pier review involved in the so-called consensus, which was never
unanimous, ever, even in the wildest dreams of the most sprout eating
sprout eater.

If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here:

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html

The synopsis, the most basic research upon which the so called
"consensus" was based, was misguided, in some part fabricated and in
large part fraudulent, and was never once pier reviewed, ever, by a
single scientific or government body in the entire world, before being
included as the main evidence in the IPCC's report to the UN, which was
the beginning of the magic show upon which Kyoto was sold to (some)
industrialized nations.  We're talking about the very premise of
supposed man made global warming.  It's one of the most heinous snake
oil sales jobs in the history of the world, supported in large part by
people like yourself who simply repeat the unfounded rhetoric that there
was ever a real consensus.

> http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/co2_change.html

More snake oil meant to fool the masses.  Read similar to this a dozen
times, it's always the same bunk.  I guarantee there's an extreme
concentration of CO2 two inches from the lips of every one of these
pseudo scientists every time they open their mouths on the subject.  But
since they baited you so well, and since I want to help you, I'll let
you in on a little secret:  they use the term "concentration" because it
conveniently avoids the unfortunate fact that the overall level of CO2
in the atmosphere is exactly what it has been for centuries, about
.035%.  That's what it said in text books when I was a kid, and that's
what it says in text books today.  The bait and switch of measuring
concentrations over industrial areas, which has nothing to offer when
discussing the planet as a whole, is more of the same.

> We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil.

Beautiful rhetoric of no substance.  Repeat it a million times, and I
have no doubt the sheep will accept it as a true analogy, just like the
consensus junk.
rw - 01 Jul 2005 15:48 GMT
> If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here:
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html

That's nearly unreadable. When I look at the scientific opinion on
controversial topics like global warming I consider sources like the
National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council to be
credible. You probably think they're sprout-eating leftists.

I used to be a skeptic about global warming and the dire predictions of
its consequences. One reason is that I worked in supercomputing at NASA
and I knew how crude and unreliable climate models really were. I still
think the models are inadequate at best, but I believe the evidence for
climate change and man's role in climate change is now undeniable.

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pawn - 01 Jul 2005 17:03 GMT
>> If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council to be
> credible. You probably think they're sprout-eating leftists.

No I don't.  I believe they are as affected as any other entity by the
overwhelming voice of the sprout eaters.

But as far McIntyre and McKitrick's analysis, you have only to look to
the papers they've had published in Geophysical Research Letters, Nature
and NWT, respective scientific journals all.  Not to mention the
numerous newspapers and online dialogs, blogs, etc., that have discussed
their work.  If you're unaware of their efforts, you only reinforce my
point that your conclusions are predetermined.

> I used to be a skeptic about global warming and the dire predictions of
> its consequences. One reason is that I worked in supercomputing at NASA
> and I knew how crude and unreliable climate models really were. I still
> think the models are inadequate at best, but I believe the evidence for
> climate change and man's role in climate change is now undeniable.

Global warming is happening, but it's anything but proven that humans
are causing it.  There are multi-million years trends, 11 year solar
cycle trends, multi-century trends, 30,000 years ice age trends, yet
you're 100.000% confident none of those apply to today, it simply must
be humans.  BTW, you still haven't answered if humans caused the average
global temperature to be higher in the 15th century than it is today.

Spike said it best:  I am open to the idea that humans are causing
global warming.  Unfortunately, there's no definitive evidence.
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 21:04 GMT
>>> If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here:
>>>
>>> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html

>Spike said it best:  I am open to the idea that humans are causing
>global warming.  Unfortunately, there's no definitive evidence.

It matters little whether my view is right or wrong. A view I might
add that I would be willing to change when "I" have found enough
evidence to cause me to change it; not simply because someone said so.

It's the fact that someone is willing to question the view accepted by
the majority, and not simply cave in. That there are those members of
the scientific community, amateur and professional,  who still seek
the answers which support or negate the majority view, and might be
the ones who solve the mystery because they continue to investigate
rather than accept without question. If it were not for dissent, many
majority views would likely have led to the end of the human race long
ago.

Which takes more courage? To fall in line and agree with everyone else
in order not to be insulted, ridiculed, silenced? Or to hold to a
belief even in the face of the many who would silence that voice?

Much like the vast majority believed that the plague was caused by the
"vapors", even as rats spread the disease further. Typhoid was viewed
similarly. In both cases, the "fix" began with a single voice
questioning the majority view, and investigating a different
possibility, and subsequently, a different cure. In both cases, as in
many others down through history, the lone voice was responsible for
changing the course of mankind's dilemma.

What has disease to do with the subject of climate? There are those
who believe that the earth, with it's atmosphere and plants and
animals, is a living entity. Much the way humans are infested with
micro-organisms, internally and externally, without which man could
not survive. Global warming and rising temperatures may be the
"fever".... but to accept a single disease (pollution) as the only
cause and work at a cure for that, may ignore the true sickness and
thus... the disease (pollution) was cured but the patient died.

Even rw acknowledges that the climate models are really sucky. If so,
how can a determination be based on such imperfection and be so
accepted as the one and only true view?  

In my neck of the woods there are thousands of lumber workers out of
work because the majority believed the Spotted Owl was on the verge of
extinction. After the milles closed, it was found to be thriving in
another region. Unfortunately, too many ignored the fact that the
lumber industry has planted replacements, so that there are more trees
today than existed in the 1800s in the US, assumed that the owl could
only live in one place, and financially ruined a lot of people's
lives.

This "debate" is much the same on a much grander scale. Stamp out
anyone who dissents. Ridicule them. Insult them. Make them go away.
It's against God to say the earth in not the center of the universe.
Recant or be tortured, imprisoned, executed. Without anyone to
question, those who hold the majority view get to push their agenda
through even if it is totally wrong. They get to make over the world
in their own image.

Shades of George Orwell.... I spoke out against the majority view.
Here comes the Thought Police.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 01 Jul 2005 21:29 GMT
> Even rw acknowledges that the climate models are really sucky. If so,
> how can a determination be based on such imperfection and be so
> accepted as the one and only true view?

The climate models do suck, but they're only one part of the story.
They're used to predict the outcome of global warming, and because they
suck those predictions are very uncertain, to say the least.

A more important part of the story is the evidence that warming is
actually occurring, and that evidence is, as far as I'm concerned,
overwhelming.

The next question is: Are man-made causes an important factor? That's
slightly less certain, but an answer of "yes" agrees with common sense.
Fossil fuel burning and other man-made activities pump about 25 billion
metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere per year, and CO2 is a known
greenhouse gas, and its increased concentration in the atmosphere is
very well documented. Scientists have been predicting a greenhouse
effect for many years. Now we're seeing it.

I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. About
one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the
ocean, and that produces carbolic acid. No fancy theories or computer
models or difficult measurements are required. It's high school chemistry.

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pawn - 01 Jul 2005 23:53 GMT
> A more important part of the story is the evidence that warming is
> actually occurring, and that evidence is, as far as I'm concerned,
> overwhelming.

I don't know of a single person or entity that disagrees with this.

> The next question is: Are man-made causes an important factor? That's
> slightly less certain, but an answer of "yes" agrees with common sense.

In your opinion.

> Fossil fuel burning and other man-made activities pump about 25 billion
> metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere per year,

Which is a tiny fraction of what the biomass pumps into the atmosphere.

> and CO2 is a known
> greenhouse gas, and its increased concentration in the atmosphere is
> very well documented.

No, it's not.  There is a very big difference between saying there are
increased concentrations, which is what you posted earlier, and what you
say above, which insinuates the overall amount of CO2 in the entire
atmosphere has detectably increased, which is not true, or at least,
there is no evidence of it, lest the sprout eaters would drop the use of
the term "concentrations"..

> Scientists have been predicting a greenhouse
> effect for many years. Now we're seeing it.

Yeah, heh, but 30 years ago the same alarmists were 100% positive it
would lead to global cooling and an inevitable ice age, now they're 100%
positive it will lead to global melt down.  I'm 100% positive nobody
understands this well enough to be 100% positive about anything.

> I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. About
> one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the
> ocean, and that produces carbolic acid. No fancy theories or computer
> models or difficult measurements are required. It's high school chemistry.

Hmmm, please provide this report.  I'd like to see the level of increase.
rw - 02 Jul 2005 01:11 GMT
>> I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing.
>> About one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Hmmm, please provide this report.  I'd like to see the level of increase.

Sorry. I assumed that you read the newspaper or knew how to google:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3571152.stm
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=81584
and many other recent news reports.

Of course, you'll dismiss this because it's a study by the Royal
Society, Britain's leading scientific organization, and they've
obviously been co-opted by the radical left enviro loonies.

Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this report,
oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm sure you
know, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that increase of 0.1 corresponds
to about 30 percent more concentration of hydrogen ions in ocean water.

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Spike - 02 Jul 2005 03:05 GMT
>>> I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing.
>>> About one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=81584
>and many other recent news reports.

You know what they say about assuming something.... like assuming that
every scientific report is an unbiased evaluation with no errors or
deviation.  I read the papers, and watch the news. I did not see this.
As for Google... I don't sit and run Google searches all day to see
what's there in the event I happen into a discussion of something.
My Google searches are primarily directed toward things related to my
car, reading and music.

>Of course, you'll dismiss this because it's a study by the Royal
>Society, Britain's leading scientific organization, and they've
>obviously been co-opted by the radical left enviro loonies.

I would not dismiss the Royal Society out of hand. But, neither do I
accept every word publish as being absolute. Even the Brit scientists
can make mistakes.

>Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this report,
>oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm sure you
>know, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that increase of 0.1 corresponds
>to about 30 percent more concentration of hydrogen ions in ocean water.

I was not aware that anyone tracked the acidity of the ocean since the
start of the industrial revolution. Could that be because those who
started it knew then that it would lead to problems of today and
wanted to keep track of how well they were doing? And were the samples
taken everywhere? Or just around population centers where industrial
and human waste was dumped into the seas? Lots of ocean out there to
test.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 02 Jul 2005 03:43 GMT
> I was not aware that anyone tracked the acidity of the ocean since the
> start of the industrial revolution. Could that be because those who
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and human waste was dumped into the seas? Lots of ocean out there to
> test.

Samples of ocean water and even of the atmosphere dating from the
industrial revolution and well before are readily available. More
anti-scientific mumbo jumbo, spike. You disappoint me.

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Spike - 02 Jul 2005 17:09 GMT
Yeah, my parents said that too, and then I surpassed every wish they
ever had for me and my siblings, while they, straight A honor students
both, failed to live up to expectations.

And did I say they didn't take samples? No. I said I was not aware
they did. That is not "anti" scientific. I do however wonder what
their purpose was, and whether the quality of testing was as good then
as now. And it is a valid point regarding where they were doing the
testing. The same would apply today. If, as many people have across
the US, you had a well for water, would the purity testing of that
water be accurate if I tested water from a well four states over? I
think not.

>> I was not aware that anyone tracked the acidity of the ocean since the
>> start of the industrial revolution. Could that be because those who
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>industrial revolution and well before are readily available. More
>anti-scientific mumbo jumbo, spike. You disappoint me.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
pawn - 02 Jul 2005 15:48 GMT
>> Hmmm, please provide this report.  I'd like to see the level of increase.
>
> Sorry. I assumed that you read the newspaper or knew how to google:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3571152.stm
> http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=81584
> and many other recent news reports.

You obviously have little tolerance for real discussion, which, if you
go back and read my response, is all I was soliciting.  Anyway, your
first link references a study that will happen (or will have happened,
based on the date), with no analysis or conclusions.  The second one
references a report, with a selective synopsis.  I said I would like to
see the report, not a sensationalized summary of alarming conclusions,
without any backup.  In another post, you chastise Spike for asking the
obvious questions:  are the measurements taken near urban centres?  Is
it a localized effect?  Is it the surface only?  Have they attempted to
measure the pH at depth?  Any rational person would want to know these
things, and more, before blindly accepting such alarmism.  I mean, you
said you saw the report.  Have you?  Where?  What was the answer to any
of my questions above?

Furthermore, you posted earlier that "man-made activities pump about 25
billion metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere per year"  (let's forget
that it's metric tonnes, not metric tons).  Your first link above states
that "some 20-25 million tonnes of carbon dioxide are being added to the
oceans each day".  Then you go on to say "one third of the CO2 we
produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the ocean", your second link
says "About half of the CO2 produced remains in the atmosphere while the
rest dissolves in the oceans".

So, you're really all over the map here.  I mean, if your number of
roughly a third is correct, then the amount of CO2 we pump into the
atmosphere is closer to 75B tonnes, not 25.  Which is it?  Personally, I
think you go around reading dumbed down newspaper bits, and if they fit
into your alarmist, arm flapping view of the world, you accept it as
fact.  When a true scientific analysis, that follows conventional
methods, and the entire report is handed to you to review, such as the
McKitrick & McIntyre report and link I gave you, you dismiss it offhand.
(if it doesn't fit into your pre-concluded view of the issue).  Then
laughably accuse other people of the same behaviour.

> Of course, you'll dismiss this because it's a study by the Royal
> Society, Britain's leading scientific organization, and they've
> obviously been co-opted by the radical left enviro loonies.

Actually, based on your selective snipping, and complete lack of
response to every single corner I've boxed you into, I don't really
think I need to accept or dismiss anything you've said or provided.
It's like I'm talking to a wall.

> Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this report,
> oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm sure you
> know, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that increase of 0.1 corresponds
> to about 30 percent more concentration of hydrogen ions in ocean water.

Well, it's been a while since I studied acids and bases, but I'm
confident you don't know sh.t about them based on your statement above
(BTW, it's 26%, and it's not a "concentration" of H+, a term you seem to
be very hung up on, it's the amount of H+).
rw - 03 Jul 2005 04:16 GMT
>>> Hmmm, please provide this report.  I'd like to see the level of
>>> increase.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> see the report, not a sensationalized summary of alarming conclusions,
> without any backup.  

My God, do I have to do everything for you? You can download a PDF
version of the report from the Royal Society's web site. I would have
thought that was the obvious place to look. Go to

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/document.asp?id=3249

and look for the link at the bottom. Is that specific enough?

Here are a few quotes from the summary:

"Calculations based on measurements of the surface oceans and our
knowledge of ocean chemistry indicate that this uptake of CO2 has led to
a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a
30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions."

"If global emissions of CO2 from human activities continue to rise on
current trends then the average pH of the oceans could fall by 0.5 units
(equivalent to a three fold increase in the concentration of hydrogen
ions) by the year 2100. This pH is probably lower than has been
experienced for hundreds of millennia and, critically, this rate of
change is probably one hundred times greater than at any time over this
period. The scale of the changes may vary regionally, which will affect
the magnitude of the biological effects."

"All the evidence collected and modelled to date indicates that
acidification of the oceans, and the changes in ocean chemistry that
accompany it, are being caused by emissions of CO2 into the atmosphere
from human activities. The magnitude of ocean acidification can be
predicted with a high level of confidence."

> In another post, you chastise Spike for asking the
> obvious questions:  are the measurements taken near urban centres?  Is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> said you saw the report.  Have you?  Where?  What was the answer to any
> of my questions above?

It's all answered in the report.

>> Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this
>> report, oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Well, it's been a while since I studied acids and bases,

Evidently.

> but I'm
> confident you don't know sh.t about them based on your statement above
> (BTW, it's 26%, and it's not a "concentration" of H+, a term you seem to
> be very hung up on, it's the amount of H+).

Once again, I'll quote from the report:

"Calculations based on measurements of the surface oceans and our
knowledge of ocean chemistry indicate that this uptake of CO2 has led to
a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a
30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions."

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pawn - 03 Jul 2005 06:34 GMT
>> You obviously have little tolerance for real discussion, which, if you
>> go back and read my response, is all I was soliciting.  Anyway, your
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> and look for the link at the bottom. Is that specific enough?

So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped media
excerpt?

> Here are a few quotes from the summary:
>
> "Calculations based on measurements of the surface oceans and our
> knowledge of ocean chemistry indicate that this uptake of CO2 has led to
> a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a
> 30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions."

(more of your laughable selective snipping duly noted)

The key word being "surface", which, of course, is a localized effect.
I know, I know, you don't get it, which has been evident from the
beginning of  this thread.

> "If global emissions of CO2 from human activities continue to rise on
> current trends then the average pH of the oceans could fall by 0.5 units
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> from human activities. The magnitude of ocean acidification can be
> predicted with a high level of confidence."

You get more and more hilarious as we go along.  You provide more quotes
from the dumbed down media synopsis, but nothing from the actual PDF,
which you claim you've read, at the end.

>> In another post, you chastise Spike for asking the obvious questions:  
>> are the measurements taken near urban centres?  Is it a localized
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> It's all answered in the report.

Maybe, and I guarantee I'll be back to belittle you some more once I've
read it.  It will be easy, since we both know you don't have the
fortitude to do the same.

>> Well, it's been a while since I studied acids and bases,
>
> Evidently.

(yawn...oh, actually, yawn and see below)

>> but I'm
>> confident you don't know sh.t about them based on your statement above
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a
> 30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions."

I don't need a report to tell me (for instance)
antilog(-5.8)/antilog(-5.9) = about 1.26.  The fact you do, shows you're
well out of your element (and well into mine); you'd do well to drop
this particular issue.  Not to mention your report...err...sorry, your
dumbed down media excerpt of the report you haven't read, has exactly
the amount of credibility it should have for recklessly rounding up in
the name of sensationalism:  that is, none.
rw - 03 Jul 2005 15:54 GMT
>>> You obviously have little tolerance for real discussion, which, if you
>>> go back and read my response, is all I was soliciting.  Anyway, your
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped media
> excerpt?

The idea was to draw you into saying some very foolish things. It worked
beautifully. You see, I've actually read the report and you haven't.

>> Here are a few quotes from the summary:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> know, I know, you don't get it, which has been evident from the
> beginning of  this thread.

Stop the presses! Pawn finds a vital error is the report! Oh, wait a
minute. CO2 is absorbed at the surface of the ocean. Never mind.

Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a "localized
effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it takes the oceans
to mix?

>> "If global emissions of CO2 from human activities continue to rise on
>> current trends then the average pH of the oceans could fall by 0.5
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> from the dumbed down media synopsis, but nothing from the actual PDF,
> which you claim you've read, at the end.

You don't seem to understand. Those quotes are taken directly from the
summary of the report. They come from the "actual PDF," as you put it.
They represent the key conclusions that the authors want to emphasize.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

pawn - 03 Jul 2005 16:08 GMT
>> So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped media
>> excerpt?
>
> The idea was to draw you into saying some very foolish things. It worked
> beautifully. You see, I've actually read the report and you haven't.

Sure you have.

>> (more of your laughable selective snipping duly noted)

(and more, and more)

>> The key word being "surface", which, of course, is a localized effect.
>> I know, I know, you don't get it, which has been evident from the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it takes the oceans
> to mix?

No.  Do you?

>> You get more and more hilarious as we go along.  You provide more
>> quotes from the dumbed down media synopsis, but nothing from the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> summary of the report. They come from the "actual PDF," as you put it.
> They represent the key conclusions that the authors want to emphasize.

Would that be the report that rounded 26% to 30% to make their point
that much more poignant?  Oh wait, you snipped that part too.
rw - 03 Jul 2005 16:52 GMT
>>> So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped
>>> media excerpt?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Sure you have.

Yes, I have. How else could I quote directly from it?

>> Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a
>> "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it
>> takes the oceans to mix?
>
> No.  Do you?

Yes, I do, and you had read the report you would know too.

Here's a quote from the report:

"1.3 Acidification and the surface oceans
In this report we use the term ‘surface oceans’ to describe
the near-surface waters where exchange of CO2 occurs.
Only the near-surface waters, or surface layers, of the
oceans (down to about 100 m on average) are well mixed
and so in close contact with the atmosphere. Carbon
dioxide in the atmosphere dissolves in the surface waters
of the oceans and establishes a concentration in
equilibrium with that of the atmosphere. Molecules of
CO2 exchange readily with the atmosphere and on
average only remain in the surface waters for about 6
years. However mixing and advection (vertical motions,
sinking and upwelling) with the intermediate and deep
waters of the oceans (down to about 1000 m and
4000 m respectively) is much slower, and takes place on
timescales of several hundred years or more. Over time
this mixing will spread the increased atmospheric uptake
of CO2 to the deeper oceans. Owing to this slow mixing
process most of the carbon stored in the upper waters of
the oceans will be retained there for a long time. This
makes the impacts in the surface waters greater than if
the CO2 absorbed from the atmosphere was spread
uniformly to all depths of the oceans."

I suppose you think we should wait "several hundreds of years or more"
before making any conclusions about the acidification of the oceans.

> Would that be the report that rounded 26% to 30% to make their point
> that much more poignant?  Oh wait, you snipped that part too.

The change in pH isn't EXACTLY 0.1, and the change is the concentration
of hydrogen ions (or are you still defending your uninformed and
incorrect interpretation of pH?) isn't EXACTLY 30%. Both figures are
within the error bars of the measurements. That you would quibble over
an imaginary discrepancy of 4% shows how weak and desperate your
argument is. There's a nice review of the pH scale in the report. You
should use it to brush up on your chemistry.

You should quit now before you embarrass yourself further. At a minimum,
read the goddamn report before you continue to bloviate about it.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

pawn - 03 Jul 2005 18:11 GMT
>> Sure you have.
>
> Yes, I have. How else could I quote directly from it?

What a bizarre statement.  You quoted a couple of paragraphs from the
very beginning of the report's _summary_, and claim that as proof that
you read it before being cornered into tracking it down and actually
backing up your rhetoric?  Sorry pal, we ain't buying that here, try
selling it on another corner.

>>> Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a
>>> "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Here's a quote from the report:

(snip something you just went and found to continue the charade that you
ever read the report before mindlessly accepting the media excerpt).

> I suppose you think we should wait "several hundreds of years or more"
> before making any conclusions about the acidification of the oceans.

No, I think something should be done to slow CO2 emissions, and always
have.  That has no bearing on my opposition to the laughable Kyoto
protocol.  In fact, I find this report very interesting since it seems
to me easier to measure this alkalinity effect, and proving it's
man-made, than global warming.  You see, I try to learn both sides of a
debate before mindlessly accepting it because it fits in with my
preconceived view of the world.

>> Would that be the report that rounded 26% to 30% to make their point
>> that much more poignant?  Oh wait, you snipped that part too.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> argument is. There's a nice review of the pH scale in the report. You
> should use it to brush up on your chemistry.

The point was YOU don't or didn't know sh.t about it.  The report can
make that rounding error (although a scientific report shouldn't), but
you spewed out the number 30% like you knew it all along, as if you
hadn't read it from a tabloid summary.

> You should quit now before you embarrass yourself further. At a minimum,
> read the goddamn report before you continue to bloviate about it.

LOL!  Is that what you think happened here?  How about answering one
single question I asked that you conveniently snipped.  Here's the very
first:

- why was the Earth's average temperature as high or higher in the 15th
century than it is today and does that established fact give us any
insight into whether humans are causing global warming today?

Look, we both know you finally downloaded the report to act like you're
not the typical lib newspaper reading sheep, so type whatever smarmy
response you need to feel like you've convinced anyone otherwise, but
when you heft that big sigh after you take your fingers off the
keyboard, throw in an extra sigh for me, would ya?  I'm finished in this
non-debate.
rw - 03 Jul 2005 20:03 GMT
>>> Sure you have.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> backing up your rhetoric?  Sorry pal, we ain't buying that here, try
> selling it on another corner.

I have the PDF on my computer. Why you would think I haven't read it
when I'm f.cking QUOTING from it is beyond me.

>>>> Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a
>>>> "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> (snip something you just went and found to continue the charade that you
> ever read the report before mindlessly accepting the media excerpt).

WTF are you raving about? I quoted something directly from the report
that answers your hilarious and desperate attempt to label acidity
change in the ocean surface as a "localized effect" -- a claim, by the
way, that you made BEFORE you read the report, even though you knew
EXACTLY where to find it (because I told you). For all I know, you still
haven't read it. And you have the preposterous gall to criticize me for
allegedly not reading it. Unbelievable.

BTW, nice snip of the quote that shoots down your argument. I'll put it
back in, just in case anyone missed it.

"1.3 Acidification and the surface oceans
In this report we use the term ‘surface oceans’ to describe
the near-surface waters where exchange of CO2 occurs.
Only the near-surface waters, or surface layers, of the
oceans (down to about 100 m on average) are well mixed
and so in close contact with the atmosphere. Carbon
dioxide in the atmosphere dissolves in the surface waters
of the oceans and establishes a concentration in
equilibrium with that of the atmosphere. Molecules of
CO2 exchange readily with the atmosphere and on
average only remain in the surface waters for about 6
years. However mixing and advection (vertical motions,
sinking and upwelling) with the intermediate and deep
waters of the oceans (down to about 1000 m and
4000 m respectively) is much slower, and takes place on
timescales of several hundred years or more. Over time
this mixing will spread the increased atmospheric uptake
of CO2 to the deeper oceans. Owing to this slow mixing
process most of the carbon stored in the upper waters of
the oceans will be retained there for a long time. This
makes the impacts in the surface waters greater than if
the CO2 absorbed from the atmosphere was spread
uniformly to all depths of the oceans."

> LOL!  Is that what you think happened here?  How about answering one
> single question I asked that you conveniently snipped.  Here's the very
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> century than it is today and does that established fact give us any
> insight into whether humans are causing global warming today?

I didn't answer your question because I don't know whether the premise
is true, and if even it is true (which it might be) I have no idea what
the answer is.

I know your type, Pawn. It's common on Usenet. Arguments turn into huge,
off-topic pissing matches deeply embedded in lines and lines of quoted
text. It's fun for awhile, especially when you have the facts on your
side, but eventually only about two people are reading the thread. I
think we're reaching that point and it's time to move on to where only
one person reads it, so you're on your own. EOT for me. You get the last
word.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Spike - 02 Jul 2005 02:52 GMT
>> Even rw acknowledges that the climate models are really sucky. If so,
>> how can a determination be based on such imperfection and be so
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>very well documented. Scientists have been predicting a greenhouse
>effect for many years. Now we're seeing it.

Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains
to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural
factors. And before scientists were predicting a greenhouse effect,
they were predicting a nuclear winter, and had all manner of
documentation to support what they claimed would happen. Now they have
all manner of documentation to support the opposite.  How long before
they once again change directions? And can anyone who has witnessed
this change within the scientific community believe whatever they
happen to espouse? I can see where someone who has grown up with only
the global warming/greenhouse effect would accept the present
position, but it gets a bit questionable when they swear up and down
were going to blot out the sun with pollution and bring on a nuclear
winter, and then say were going to blot out the sun with pollution and
bring on a greenhouse effect. It must be easy for some people to
simple accept what they are told and never question. Guess that's just
not me.

>I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. About
>one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the
>ocean, and that produces carbolic acid. No fancy theories or computer
>models or difficult measurements are required. It's high school chemistry.

Last I read, the melting of the polar ice would result in lower
salinity.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 02 Jul 2005 03:46 GMT
> Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains
> to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural
> factors. And before scientists were predicting a greenhouse effect,
> they were predicting a nuclear winter, and had all manner of
> documentation to support what they claimed would happen.

That's either disingenuous or ignorant. The "nuclear winter" scenarios
were a prediction of what would happen after a full-scale nuclear war.
They had nothing to do with global warming, CO2, or climate change.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Spike - 02 Jul 2005 18:12 GMT
>> Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains
>> to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>were a prediction of what would happen after a full-scale nuclear war.
>They had nothing to do with global warming, CO2, or climate change.

This time it was my turn to "misspeak", for it was the global cooling/
ice age hypothesis. I admit the "nuclear" winter was related to war.

However, to again resort to insult is unbecoming. Simply pointing out
the error would have sufficed. You might consider that, while you
might not alter someone's viewpoint with discussion or debate, you
most certainly will never change it with insult, or inferring a sense
of superiority over the person you are attempting to persuade.
Nor is it good to lose your cool simply because another will not
accede to your being heavy handed in style.

Recall the saying that people listen harder to the quiet voice, and
shun the one who shouts. As a patrolman dealing with drunks who are
shouting at me, I learned that by whispering, the drunk very often
would quite down in an attempt to hear what I was saying. Once he (or
occasionally a "she") was quieted, the rest of the contact became one
of cooperation. Naturally, there were those who were not affected by
any degree of civility. Still, it never helped for me to get upset or
frustrated with either type over anything they said or did.

Would you yell at a child to get cooperation? It might work. But would
they mind out of respect or out of fear? As a parent, I've found it
easier to lead a child to agreement with what I would wish them to do,
rather then to force my will upon them. Even better that they should
think it their idea. Like the definition of tact and diplomacy. To
tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they think it their idea
and they enjoy the ride.

Granted there may be far more who see things as you do on a number of
subjects, than see things as I do. Yet, if you desire to convert
anyone, you might want to consider trying to understand their
position, why they hold it, and map a route to help them see your
position happens to be a more accurate one. Like teaching a child how
to change a tire on a car. Help the child understand why they should
do one task before doing another. For example; for safety. But do not
be surprised if the child continues to want to do it their own way.

These are simplistic examples to be sure. But I have found they have a
more positive response than throwing a lot of facts and figures at
someone and expecting them to "get it". It did little good to quote
passages from the vehicle code when a parent was driving around with a
child on his or her lap. But a calm transfer of information regarding
what might happen in the even of a sudden stop or accident generally
got the response of, 'I never thought of that...'.

Of course, there were those who got upset for even being stopped. You
can't win them all over to see things as you do, and there is no point
in getting frustrated or losing sleep over it. There is a point where
you must simply accept that the person you are attempting to convince
will not change their view. And when that has been realized, you quit
beating the dead horse, and hope to convince the next.

As an example; I tried to convince you of several points regarding the
Kerry situation. You negated those points. I did not continue to
attempt to alter your position. I had provided the benefit of my
experience and I could see there was no point in further discussion as
your mind was clearly set an not open to any other possibility. I
would have been pleased if you had at least considered the
possibilities I presented, just as I have considered what has been
said regarding global warming, wherein you have made some interesting
points for me to investigate. I have not rejected your points. I have
simply raised questions that a reasonable person might ask (i.e. the
testing of the waters for acidity, or why a majority of scientists
supported global cooling and now support global warming based upon the
same causation).

That said... it's now time for me to drive my beatermobile, smoking
all the way, to the store to purchase some steaks and charcoal for
this afternoon. : ) I hope your day turns out as well as mine.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 03 Jul 2005 04:19 GMT
>>>Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains
>>>to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> However, to again resort to insult is unbecoming. Simply pointing out
> the error would have sufficed.

That you could even make such an absurd mistake indicates (to me, at
least) that you're both unfamiliar with the science and that you have a
political agenda.

Signature

Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Spike - 03 Jul 2005 20:08 GMT
As if you have never in your life made a mistake? Hmmmm.
And what possible political agenda could I have? That reply makes
absolutely no sense.  So, please tell. Perhaps if I knew what my
political agenda is supposed to be I might make some investments so
your could add personal gain to your accusations?

Why is it that when someone disagrees with you, and you can't convince
them to change, you resort to accusations and insult?

>>>>Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains
>>>>to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>least) that you're both unfamiliar with the science and that you have a
>political agenda.

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
                                -JFK Inaugural Speech
pawn - 01 Jul 2005 23:46 GMT
(snip all...well said, couldn't agree more)
RichA - 01 Jul 2005 20:47 GMT
>> You're wrong that, Spike. Peer-reviewed scientific opinion is unanimous
>> that man-made green-house-gas pollution is affecting the climate. It's
[quoted text c