Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / July 2005
HEY ENVIRO-LEFTIES; How about a little challenge???
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RichA - 29 Jun 2005 03:44 GMT A Canadian firm has released a new catalytic converter for cars that removes almost all pollutants from auto exhausts. It will take a stream from a regular converter and remove a further 98% of the pollutants. A regular converter costs $300 to the industry. This one costs $1400. Do you think all the Hollywood phonies will be putting these on their cars, to show what good enviro-citizens they are?? Not likely. You know why? Because you can't SEE it, the way you can a Toyota Prius, so there's nothing for the average Hollywoodite to parade around and preen about and boast about what great environmentalists they are.
How about getting Kyoto to MANDATE putting it on all cars produced world-wide? Not likely EITHER since the CHINESE and INDIANS (2.3 billion people) don't even have REGULAR (that have been on American cars since 1976) catalytic converters.
My car cost about $40,000. If it means spending $2800 (cost of two new converters) to outfit it with a device that renders it less polluting than a cigarette lighter, I'm all for it. PROVIDED it is mandated that ALL cars produced have it from NOW on.
The gauntlet is down, phony enviro-leftists, Hollywood trendies and Asiatics; Pick it up, I DARE you! PROVE you aren't just anti-Western CLOWNS, that the Kyoto Accord isn't just a FRAUD designed to shift wealth and jobs east and that you DO care about air pollution.
6whiteboomer77@hotmail.com - 29 Jun 2005 04:32 GMT >A Canadian firm has released a new catalytic converter for cars >that removes almost all pollutants from auto exhausts. It will take [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >CLOWNS, that the Kyoto Accord isn't just a FRAUD designed to shift >wealth and jobs east and that you DO care about air pollution. pssssssssst rich all the converters in the world will make the exhaust clean
look at the by product of the converter CO2 whats responable for globel warming
who just fell for the converter sales pitch great ya just added to globel warming
FOCTARD
h u r c a s t
pawn - 29 Jun 2005 04:55 GMT > A Canadian firm has released a new catalytic converter for cars > that removes almost all pollutants from auto exhausts. It will take [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > CLOWNS, that the Kyoto Accord isn't just a FRAUD designed to shift > wealth and jobs east and that you DO care about air pollution. You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust. Here's a hint: perfect, clean combustion results in CO2 and H2O. Kyoto, as flawed as it is, is about reducing CO2 emissions.
Spike - 29 Jun 2005 06:14 GMT >You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter >does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust. Here's a hint: >perfect, clean combustion results in CO2 and H2O. Kyoto, as flawed as >it is, is about reducing CO2 emissions. That may be, but Kyoto exempts some of the worst polluting nations because they fall into the developing nation category, while industrialized nations, especially the US is expected to cut pollutants enough to cover for the developing nations like China, India, etc. Screw that. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
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"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
"Once there existed a bright shining star that was known as Camelot." A time in America when personal accomplishments were found in serving one's nation, not turning one's back on it; when honor was revered, and loyalty to a common goal was a virtue. Like the Phoenix, the Camelot that was America will again rise from the ashes of those who would rewrite it's history, reinterpret it's founding principles, and relish in dividing it's people rather than in uniting them.
ZombyWoof - 29 Jun 2005 14:34 GMT >>You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter >>does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust. Here's a hint: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >pollutants enough to cover for the developing nations like China, >India, etc. Screw that. Of course screw that, that is why our government said screw that.
>Spike >1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >founding principles, and relish in dividing it's people >rather than in uniting them.
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pawn - 29 Jun 2005 22:28 GMT >>You might want to do a little research about what a catalytic converter >>does and doesn't remove from combustion exhaust. Here's a hint: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > pollutants enough to cover for the developing nations like China, > India, etc. Screw that. Just to be clear, I believe Kyoto to be a laughable attempt at international wealth redistribution, which was fraudulently sold to the weak minded and weak kneed, using junk science recklessly endorsed by a "scientific consensus" (not one entity in the entire world verified Mann's "hockey stick" theory) by tree hugging, tie-dye beret wearing socialists, more concerned with black and white ideology than facts, sense or reality. But a catalytic converter, of any type, won't help achieve Kyoto greenhouse gas emission reduction goals.
There, now I'm clear. :)
rw - 30 Jun 2005 03:53 GMT > Just to be clear, I believe Kyoto to be a laughable attempt at > international wealth redistribution, which was fraudulently sold to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > There, now I'm clear. :) Here, here! I'm what some might call an enviro-lefty, but the Kyoto Protocol sucked the hind teat. Any treaty that lets the Chinese, for example, go about their business as usual because they're a "developing country" is absurd.
However, I didn't agree with the high-handed way the Bush Administration just walked away from the negotiating table. I think they're in denial about the scientific evidence of the seriousness of the problem, which is overwhelming.
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pawn - 30 Jun 2005 04:36 GMT > I think they're in denial > about the scientific evidence of the seriousness of the problem, which > is overwhelming. Please elaborate. Seriousness of what problem? Global warming (which could be man made, but has a much more established natural cyclical trend) is a given, so please be creative, or ar least relevant.
Spike - 30 Jun 2005 05:30 GMT It used to be global cooling and threats of a new ice age, and now it's global warming and rising seas. There are scare stories of what will happen when the tropical forests are gone, while oceanographers claim the sea produces more breathable atmosphere than the rain forests. Forestry officials claim there are more trees in the US today than there were 100 or even 200 years ago (National Geographic agrees). Both cause by pollution by humans, yet three volcanic eruptions eclipses what man produces. They say the Arctic Ocean ice is melting faster, and glaciers are receding, and at the same time ice layers are increasing faster in the Antarctic. So, even the scientists can't get it right. And measurements have not been recorded long enough to KNOW if this is cyclic or something new. As for Kyoto and the walking out, what else to do when the cards are already stacked against you? Sit there and cave in? Sit there and be bored with people whose minds are already decided? Or walk out? That's when they get the message that you're serious about not agreeing with what they propose.
>> I think they're in denial >> about the scientific evidence of the seriousness of the problem, which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >could be man made, but has a much more established natural cyclical >trend) is a given, so please be creative, or ar least relevant. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 30 Jun 2005 06:41 GMT >> I think they're in denial about the scientific evidence of the >> seriousness of the problem, which is overwhelming. > > Please elaborate. Seriousness of what problem? Global warming (which > could be man made, but has a much more established natural cyclical > trend) is a given, so please be creative, or ar least relevant. Sorry if I'm not relevant, pawn. I'm putting a Mustang reference in this post.
Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, for about 200 years more or less, we've been polluting our atmosphere with not only CO2 but with also with lots of other noxious crap. The CO2 level has risen dramatically and inexorably, and it's accelerating.
We don't understand what the consequences will be. We're not that smart. It could be global warming, or it could be radical global cooling. The system is nonlinear and unpredictable. Whichever, the consequences will likely be horrific. We're like a colony of monkeys poking and prodding at a complex machine, pulling out parts and jamming in sticks and watching with ignorant curiosity what happens. But the machine we're f.cking with is the only planet we live on. Imagine letting a chimpanzee work on your vintage Mustang.
Any rational look at the recent history of our climate (like over the past 100,000 years or so), even ignoring human-caused problems, makes one fear for the future of our children. We are very complacent. The universe is a cold, hard, unforgiving place. If we don't look out for ourselves, be assured that no one else will be looking out for us.
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Spike - 30 Jun 2005 20:42 GMT I'd say, everyone, except trolls like hurc, are relevant, and I imagine even they serve some purpose at some point.
While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound reason for panicked knee jerk reaction when science can't make up it's mind which way the wind is blowing, or whether it is man-made or a natural, perhaps cyclic, condition. Even their predictions can't establish solid time factors. Does mankind have a decade to fix things, or a million years?
Perhaps less worry should be placed upon pollution than on population growth in developing nations especially, as well as the rest. Less people, less resources to consume, less need for manufacturing, so less pollution. And less need for sheep and cows polluting the air with their noxious methane gas eruptions. In turn, more room on the roads for our Mustangs to run wild and free without all the pollution control crap that robs us of power, coupled with more available fuel for a much longer period of time. : )
>>> I think they're in denial about the scientific evidence of the >>> seriousness of the problem, which is overwhelming. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >universe is a cold, hard, unforgiving place. If we don't look out for >ourselves, be assured that no one else will be looking out for us. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 30 Jun 2005 22:42 GMT > While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we > should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound > reason for panicked knee jerk reaction when science can't make up it's > mind which way the wind is blowing, or whether it is man-made or a > natural, perhaps cyclic, condition. You're wrong that, Spike. Peer-reviewed scientific opinion is unanimous that man-made green-house-gas pollution is affecting the climate. It's completely consistent with common sense if you look at the trend for CO2 in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution:
http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/co2_change.html
We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil.
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slimestickland34@hotmail.com - 01 Jul 2005 00:03 GMT >> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we >> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil. your wasting your time rw spike is a baby killer from nam and a pigboy he is incapable of free thought he only understands orders and what the govt tells him
h u r c a s t
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 01:50 GMT Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a number of people in the scientific communities disagree with their peers. Sometimes in toto; sometimes on point of a thesis. Even among those who support the contention, a large enough number are in disagreement as to the extent of man's impact. Those are the ones who are most open in an admission that science is not so able to make such determinations with absolute certainty. So, it's not a case of I am wrong, IMHO, but that I disagree with the ones you happen to agree with. I think that there is room for more than one viewpoint, as members of the scientific communities have shown by their open disagreements. The concensus may support you position, and yet there have been past conditions where the concensus was totally in error.
It just might be that to jump in with both feet and try to correct a problem, mankind has proven on many occasions that corrective action is worse than no action, or taking a slower, more subtle approach. Killing a cockroach with a nuclear weapon doesn't always come out the way it is expected.
Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be right.
>> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we >> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
William Claude Dukenfield - 01 Jul 2005 02:00 GMT What Journals?
Apparently not New Scientist, Science, Nature, or National Geographic.
>Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a >number of people in the scientific communities disagree with their [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be >right. {snip}
William Claude Dukenfield - 01 Jul 2005 03:06 GMT >Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a Here's a good article on the subject:
Get off the fence over global warming
From issue 2505 of New Scientist magazine, 25 June 2005, page 25 Mark Lynas
CLIMATE change is not a scientific issue. No, really, I'm serious. It is far more important than that. It forces us to make fundamental choices about our most basic belief systems. If policy-makers and the public could forget about the science, we'd have a much better chance of averting this looming catastrophe before it's too late.
Here's the problem. Treating climate change purely as a scientific issue obscures the real points of contention, which are political and economic. I once spent hours debating with a climate sceptic about why the glaciers on Kilimanjaro are retreating, only to discover that his real beef was that he believed all environmentalists were socialists in disguise, whose real agenda was to destroy capitalism. In other words, we weren't really arguing about Kilimanjaro at all. Wouldn't it be a lot more straightforward to get this kind of disagreement out in the open? Climate change is an emotional debate conducted in entirely the wrong intellectual language.
A second problem of dealing with climate change solely in scientific terms is that it gives sceptics and contrarians an enormous advantage. "The science is still uncertain," they cry - and they are right. The science is uncertain. If it wasn't uncertain, it wouldn't be science. As Karl Popper put it, a theory that is not falsifiable cannot by definition be scientific.
But this dictum does not apply in the policy arena. Mere mention of the word "uncertainty" is enough to send any rational politician scurrying for cover. The same goes for the general public, for whom uncertainty will always be a reason not to act, especially if the consequences of acting are likely to be painful. Global warming sceptics are adept at invoking uncertainty to delay action. No more than a handful of climatologists are sceptics on the question of climate change; most sceptics aren't experts in any scientific sense. But this is a subtlety lost on both the media, who want a spokesperson for each side, and the general public, who simply want someone they can believe in.
Worse still, when a journalist rings up a climate scientist for their opinion on the issue, few oblige. Most either come over all shy or ramble on about their latest graph. Many in the media and the public, and even among the world's political elite, are all desperate for the scientific establishment to show leadership on climate change. But when the ball is passed in their direction, the scientists kick it right back, saying, "That's a question for policy-makers. We couldn't possibly comment."
Hence the oft-quoted "demand" from the UN sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) for 60 per cent cuts in emissions. Journalists are so desperate to write a paragraph beginning, "The world's scientists have called for 60 per cent reductions..." that they have to put words along these lines into the IPCC's mouth. The IPCC, of course, doesn't "do" policy and has never said any such thing.
But what about scientific objectivity. Isn't it important for scientists to protect their professional integrity by staying neutral in policy debates? This is a much more serious concern. Objectivity is crucial in the scientific process. The public tends to trust scientists when they are not seen as beholden to political or economic interests.
But scientific objectivity should not condemn intelligent scientists to the political equivalent of a Trappist vow of silence. If our future is under threat, scientists have a duty to say so. Where, for example, is the volcanologist who refuses on the grounds of "neutrality" to warn of impending eruptions? Or the tropical meteorologist who sits tight-lipped with his models and satellite data while a Category 5 storm spins towards a vulnerable Caribbean coastline?
I think there is something sinister going on. The scientific community has been intimidated into neutrality by environmentalism's powerful opponents. In the US, the IPCC is already pilloried by conservatives for daring to discuss climate change at all, and its yelps of objectivity are seen by its opponents as signs of weakness.
A few scientists have made political statements: Robert May, president of the Royal Society, and former IPCC co-chair John Houghton, are examples. It is time others followed their lead. Climate scientists need to accept their role in the real world. As part of the small proportion of the population who actually understand the dire situation we are in, scientists have a moral responsibility to help us find a way out of this crisis. Environmental campaigners have tried and failed to do it. Now it's someone else's turn.
Environmentalists are like Cassandra before the fall of Troy: destined to tell the truth but never to be believed. Climate scientists are still burdened with the opposite problem. They are much more likely to be believed, but they cannot quite bring themselves to tell the truth.
Mark Lynas is a writer, campaigner and commentator on climate change issues (www.marklynas.org). He is the author of High Tide: How climate crisis is engulfing our planet (HarperPerennial, 2005)
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 04:39 GMT It's so nice to live in a world where some believe that their answer is the only answer and that any other opinion couldn't possibly be even part right. Among many others throughout history, I'll bet Columbus was glad to find that someone was willing to keep an open mind, and I believe he was in a minority.
A recent report by National Geographic in coverage of the Eskimo plight brought about by disappearing and thinning ice, also reported that ice was piling up faster and thicker in the Antarctic. Should I expect it to be removed from your list of approved journals since that would seem to be a minority view.
It was not that many decades ago when the fear was global winter and it was the minority in the scientific community who rejected that and opted for the greenhouse affect. Now they are a majority and the global winter supporters are the minority. Both have held forth reams of supporting documentation. What's next?
It is my personal view that the final evidence is not in, and until it is, I think I have a right to continue to examine and weigh the evidence presented by both sides without being derided for holding an opposing view. I consider that no more fence sitting than I would when weighing the evidence presented by both sides in a death penalty case.... for surely, whether it be a natural course or created by man, death of the planet could be the end result... or perhaps just the end of man and the rise of a new order of life.
And I did state that mankind should attempt to lessen it's impact upon the environment, not continue to do damage to it, whether that impact is great or small.
At least I believe I have extended the courtesy to acknowledge that my view might be wrong, and to keep an open mind and not condemn those who don't happen to agree with my views. How often through history has a minority view been found to be the correct one over the majority view?
I don't look down on you for not agreeing with me. Would that you might grant me, or anyone else, the same consideration, even if I should be wrong. Some of man's greatest advances have been born of differing views.
Essentially, your response appears to be, and correct me if I am wrong, that all opposition to your position is due to personal bias rather than attempting to take a balanced view; or for self aggrandizing political motivations; and similar justifications for disagreement with what you consider the main stream view.
You cite an author who has a stake in what he writes for to state something opposite to his book would likely hurt sales. Yet, you must hold a view that he could not possible be biased. Is it only those journals and authors whose view agrees with yours which are acceptable? Is that the world we have come to? Should we begin banning and burning books which might suggest an alternative view to global warming?
>>Perhaps, but I read an awful lot of scientific journals where quite a > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >choices about our most basic belief systems. If policy-makers and the >public could forget about the science, we'd have a much better chance Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
William Claude Dukenfield - 01 Jul 2005 17:53 GMT It appears you didn't read them, the increase of snow/ice at the Antarctic (center) is due to warming increasing the humidity in the air there. The ice fields on the edges of the Antarctic are shrinking.
National Geographic has many, many, articles that show the fact of global warming. Read it, don't quote Rush L.
As for impartiality, the name of the thread covers that.
{snip}
>A recent report by National Geographic in coverage of the Eskimo >plight brought about by disappearing and thinning ice, also reported >that ice was piling up faster and thicker in the Antarctic. Should I >expect it to be removed from your list of approved journals since that >would seem to be a minority view. {/snip}
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 19:48 GMT I don't listen to Rush! He's too one sided and rabid. And I DO read, not skim. A LOT of different sources. Thanks.
>It appears you didn't read them, the increase of snow/ice at the >Antarctic (center) is due to warming increasing the humidity in the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>would seem to be a minority view. >{/snip} Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 01 Jul 2005 04:14 GMT > Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold > opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be > right. Whatever, Spike. Keep drinking that Kool Aid, and don't bother thinking for yourself.
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pawn - 01 Jul 2005 06:21 GMT >> Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold >> opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be >> right. > > Whatever, Spike. Keep drinking that Kool Aid, and don't bother thinking > for yourself. Beautiful misdirection. But when you have a consensus, why have a point? Right?
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 20:04 GMT Don't bother thinking for myself? What? And accept whatever I'm told, without question, as if it were the gospel according to St rw? That seems a strange position for one so sure of their views to take. To add insult rather than accept that others have views which differ, does nothing to induce someone to accept those views held.
I've listened to your views, as I have others, and respect them. That doesn't mean I must agree with them. Nor does it mean that you should insult me because my views are different from yours. I suppose there are those people who just can't stand it when someone does not agree with their views.
And it's ice tea....
>> Notice, I don't accuse you of being wrong simple because we hold >> opposing views. I make allowance for the possibility that you might be >> right. > >Whatever, Spike. Keep drinking that Kool Aid, and don't bother thinking >for yourself. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 01 Jul 2005 21:16 GMT > Don't bother thinking for myself? What? And accept whatever I'm told, > without question, as if it were the gospel according to St rw? That [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are those people who just can't stand it when someone does not agree > with their views. You're right, Spike. I spoke out of turn and I apologize.
What is frustrating to me, however, about your arguments, on this and some other topics, is that you seem to assume there are always two opposed but equally valid positions, and then you feel free to take the position that suits you personal best interest as you perceive it. And then if someone criticises your position you cry "foul." It comes across to me as a way of avoiding facing up to harsh realities. Gas prices increasing? It must be OPEC's fault. Global warming? Not enough evidence. Kerry releases complete military records with no blemishes? Stop criticizing Bush.
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Spike - 02 Jul 2005 04:12 GMT >> Don't bother thinking for myself? What? And accept whatever I'm told, >> without question, as if it were the gospel according to St rw? That [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >You're right, Spike. I spoke out of turn and I apologize. I accept your apology. although I did not ask for one, nor was one expected. I give you more respect for having done so.
Perhaps you will consider that we likely come from different times and experiences, and therefore have different views. I acknowledge that others' lives have not been identical to mine and that their views may be different. I do not judge them as being absolutely wrong. I make allowance for the possibility that they may be right. It's a matter of respecting others as individuals with minds of their own.
>What is frustrating to me, however, about your arguments, on this and >some other topics, is that you seem to assume there are always two [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >evidence. Kerry releases complete military records with no blemishes? >Stop criticizing Bush. Your frustration may be that I do not cave in and simply accept whatever I am told in some blind, mindless fashion. I like to dig and find out for myself to the extent I can, and then make up my own mind.
I do not choose the position that serves my personal best interest. I choose the position which I happen to believe, as I think you do. In what manner would my personal interest be served? I am not an author foisting a book upon the public. Nor do I gain from the rising price of fuel. And Kerry's record, true or false, do not alter my life in any way. Global warming? Do I gain if I am wrong and the world ends in a runaway greenhouse effect? Do I gain if it ends by nuclear winter?
The circumstances you cited wherein we disagree, are no different than this situation. If you will recall, I have never put you down for having opposing views. I have simply indicated that I do not particularly agree with them. In our exchanges, you will note that I have always indicated the possibility that I might be wrong, something you do not seem to be able to do.
For example, at no time did I say that OPEC was solely responsible for rising fuel prices. Nor did I say Kerry's records were false. I did provide you with personal experience gleaned from within the military establishment during and while serving in Vietnam, which might (notice I said "might") explain why other members of his unit disagreed with him. You absolutely rejected any such possibility, and flatly stated that it was a bunch of men angry over Kerry's post Vietnam activities, conducted in collusion with the GOP. As if the men from that unit were not entitled to think on their own, nor think without bias. Yet, you find no problem in attacking the President with nothing more for proof than accusations, innuendo, and rumor.
As I have said to you over each exchange, I accept that you have different views to which you are entitled. Did I not? And did I not provide you with the benefit of my experience, which you rejected without consideration? Much as you have accused me in the matter of global warming?
I respect you for your beliefs, even though I disagree, whether in whole or in part. Just as I respect others for their religious beliefs, or their political beliefs. (My own brother was a draft evader during Vietnam, and I still respect that he had the guts to stand up for his convictions and to accept the punishment meted out for his refusal, rather than to run and hide in a foreign country, even as I was ducking bullets. He in turn, has never put me down for my convictions which took me there.)
From out of all this, perhaps you, and some others will look inward at the way you react to those who disagree with you; to those who see things differently, or are different in some way. Maybe you will see that everyone is entitled to their own views, whether in your view they are right or wrong, and that insults, rejection, argument, browbeating, etc, does not reflect well on the one who denies them the right to dissent. If everyone were to be so understanding, there might be a lot less conflict in the world, and people might be able to better work together to solve the ills of the world.
I have yet to find reason to feel frustrated by your responses simply because you disagree with me. Nor over the fact that you and some others are so willing to attack my views, yet unwilling to accept anyone who does not agree with yours. That's something you have to live with. Who knows? There might yet be some subject wherein we are in total agreement.
Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
ZombyWoof - 01 Jul 2005 02:49 GMT >> While there is reason to be "concerned" for our environment, and we >> should do things to lessen man's impact upon it, there's no sound [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil. Either everyone does the same oil change, or no one does.
 Signature "Either kill me or take me as I am, because I'll be damned if I ever change..."
The Marquis de Sade
pawn - 01 Jul 2005 06:19 GMT > You're wrong that, Spike. Peer-reviewed scientific opinion is unanimous > that man-made green-house-gas pollution is affecting the climate. It's > completely consistent with common sense if you look at the trend for CO2 > in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution: Junk plain and simple. You're simply spewing the same crap the sprout eaters have been blabbing to the media for years. There was never any pier review involved in the so-called consensus, which was never unanimous, ever, even in the wildest dreams of the most sprout eating sprout eater.
If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html
The synopsis, the most basic research upon which the so called "consensus" was based, was misguided, in some part fabricated and in large part fraudulent, and was never once pier reviewed, ever, by a single scientific or government body in the entire world, before being included as the main evidence in the IPCC's report to the UN, which was the beginning of the magic show upon which Kyoto was sold to (some) industrialized nations. We're talking about the very premise of supposed man made global warming. It's one of the most heinous snake oil sales jobs in the history of the world, supported in large part by people like yourself who simply repeat the unfounded rhetoric that there was ever a real consensus.
> http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/co2_change.html More snake oil meant to fool the masses. Read similar to this a dozen times, it's always the same bunk. I guarantee there's an extreme concentration of CO2 two inches from the lips of every one of these pseudo scientists every time they open their mouths on the subject. But since they baited you so well, and since I want to help you, I'll let you in on a little secret: they use the term "concentration" because it conveniently avoids the unfortunate fact that the overall level of CO2 in the atmosphere is exactly what it has been for centuries, about .035%. That's what it said in text books when I was a kid, and that's what it says in text books today. The bait and switch of measuring concentrations over industrial areas, which has nothing to offer when discussing the planet as a whole, is more of the same.
> We're basically driving this car called the earth and not changing the oil. Beautiful rhetoric of no substance. Repeat it a million times, and I have no doubt the sheep will accept it as a true analogy, just like the consensus junk.
rw - 01 Jul 2005 15:48 GMT > If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here: > > http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html That's nearly unreadable. When I look at the scientific opinion on controversial topics like global warming I consider sources like the National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council to be credible. You probably think they're sprout-eating leftists.
I used to be a skeptic about global warming and the dire predictions of its consequences. One reason is that I worked in supercomputing at NASA and I knew how crude and unreliable climate models really were. I still think the models are inadequate at best, but I believe the evidence for climate change and man's role in climate change is now undeniable.
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pawn - 01 Jul 2005 17:03 GMT >> If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council to be > credible. You probably think they're sprout-eating leftists. No I don't. I believe they are as affected as any other entity by the overwhelming voice of the sprout eaters.
But as far McIntyre and McKitrick's analysis, you have only to look to the papers they've had published in Geophysical Research Letters, Nature and NWT, respective scientific journals all. Not to mention the numerous newspapers and online dialogs, blogs, etc., that have discussed their work. If you're unaware of their efforts, you only reinforce my point that your conclusions are predetermined.
> I used to be a skeptic about global warming and the dire predictions of > its consequences. One reason is that I worked in supercomputing at NASA > and I knew how crude and unreliable climate models really were. I still > think the models are inadequate at best, but I believe the evidence for > climate change and man's role in climate change is now undeniable. Global warming is happening, but it's anything but proven that humans are causing it. There are multi-million years trends, 11 year solar cycle trends, multi-century trends, 30,000 years ice age trends, yet you're 100.000% confident none of those apply to today, it simply must be humans. BTW, you still haven't answered if humans caused the average global temperature to be higher in the 15th century than it is today.
Spike said it best: I am open to the idea that humans are causing global warming. Unfortunately, there's no definitive evidence.
Spike - 01 Jul 2005 21:04 GMT >>> If you're looking for facts by real scientists, you can look here: >>> >>> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html
>Spike said it best: I am open to the idea that humans are causing >global warming. Unfortunately, there's no definitive evidence. It matters little whether my view is right or wrong. A view I might add that I would be willing to change when "I" have found enough evidence to cause me to change it; not simply because someone said so.
It's the fact that someone is willing to question the view accepted by the majority, and not simply cave in. That there are those members of the scientific community, amateur and professional, who still seek the answers which support or negate the majority view, and might be the ones who solve the mystery because they continue to investigate rather than accept without question. If it were not for dissent, many majority views would likely have led to the end of the human race long ago.
Which takes more courage? To fall in line and agree with everyone else in order not to be insulted, ridiculed, silenced? Or to hold to a belief even in the face of the many who would silence that voice?
Much like the vast majority believed that the plague was caused by the "vapors", even as rats spread the disease further. Typhoid was viewed similarly. In both cases, the "fix" began with a single voice questioning the majority view, and investigating a different possibility, and subsequently, a different cure. In both cases, as in many others down through history, the lone voice was responsible for changing the course of mankind's dilemma.
What has disease to do with the subject of climate? There are those who believe that the earth, with it's atmosphere and plants and animals, is a living entity. Much the way humans are infested with micro-organisms, internally and externally, without which man could not survive. Global warming and rising temperatures may be the "fever".... but to accept a single disease (pollution) as the only cause and work at a cure for that, may ignore the true sickness and thus... the disease (pollution) was cured but the patient died.
Even rw acknowledges that the climate models are really sucky. If so, how can a determination be based on such imperfection and be so accepted as the one and only true view?
In my neck of the woods there are thousands of lumber workers out of work because the majority believed the Spotted Owl was on the verge of extinction. After the milles closed, it was found to be thriving in another region. Unfortunately, too many ignored the fact that the lumber industry has planted replacements, so that there are more trees today than existed in the 1800s in the US, assumed that the owl could only live in one place, and financially ruined a lot of people's lives.
This "debate" is much the same on a much grander scale. Stamp out anyone who dissents. Ridicule them. Insult them. Make them go away. It's against God to say the earth in not the center of the universe. Recant or be tortured, imprisoned, executed. Without anyone to question, those who hold the majority view get to push their agenda through even if it is totally wrong. They get to make over the world in their own image.
Shades of George Orwell.... I spoke out against the majority view. Here comes the Thought Police.
Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 01 Jul 2005 21:29 GMT > Even rw acknowledges that the climate models are really sucky. If so, > how can a determination be based on such imperfection and be so > accepted as the one and only true view? The climate models do suck, but they're only one part of the story. They're used to predict the outcome of global warming, and because they suck those predictions are very uncertain, to say the least.
A more important part of the story is the evidence that warming is actually occurring, and that evidence is, as far as I'm concerned, overwhelming.
The next question is: Are man-made causes an important factor? That's slightly less certain, but an answer of "yes" agrees with common sense. Fossil fuel burning and other man-made activities pump about 25 billion metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere per year, and CO2 is a known greenhouse gas, and its increased concentration in the atmosphere is very well documented. Scientists have been predicting a greenhouse effect for many years. Now we're seeing it.
I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. About one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the ocean, and that produces carbolic acid. No fancy theories or computer models or difficult measurements are required. It's high school chemistry.
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pawn - 01 Jul 2005 23:53 GMT > A more important part of the story is the evidence that warming is > actually occurring, and that evidence is, as far as I'm concerned, > overwhelming. I don't know of a single person or entity that disagrees with this.
> The next question is: Are man-made causes an important factor? That's > slightly less certain, but an answer of "yes" agrees with common sense. In your opinion.
> Fossil fuel burning and other man-made activities pump about 25 billion > metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere per year, Which is a tiny fraction of what the biomass pumps into the atmosphere.
> and CO2 is a known > greenhouse gas, and its increased concentration in the atmosphere is > very well documented. No, it's not. There is a very big difference between saying there are increased concentrations, which is what you posted earlier, and what you say above, which insinuates the overall amount of CO2 in the entire atmosphere has detectably increased, which is not true, or at least, there is no evidence of it, lest the sprout eaters would drop the use of the term "concentrations"..
> Scientists have been predicting a greenhouse > effect for many years. Now we're seeing it. Yeah, heh, but 30 years ago the same alarmists were 100% positive it would lead to global cooling and an inevitable ice age, now they're 100% positive it will lead to global melt down. I'm 100% positive nobody understands this well enough to be 100% positive about anything.
> I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. About > one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the > ocean, and that produces carbolic acid. No fancy theories or computer > models or difficult measurements are required. It's high school chemistry. Hmmm, please provide this report. I'd like to see the level of increase.
rw - 02 Jul 2005 01:11 GMT >> I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. >> About one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hmmm, please provide this report. I'd like to see the level of increase. Sorry. I assumed that you read the newspaper or knew how to google: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3571152.stm http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=81584 and many other recent news reports.
Of course, you'll dismiss this because it's a study by the Royal Society, Britain's leading scientific organization, and they've obviously been co-opted by the radical left enviro loonies.
Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this report, oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm sure you know, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that increase of 0.1 corresponds to about 30 percent more concentration of hydrogen ions in ocean water.
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Spike - 02 Jul 2005 03:05 GMT >>> I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. >>> About one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=81584 >and many other recent news reports. You know what they say about assuming something.... like assuming that every scientific report is an unbiased evaluation with no errors or deviation. I read the papers, and watch the news. I did not see this. As for Google... I don't sit and run Google searches all day to see what's there in the event I happen into a discussion of something. My Google searches are primarily directed toward things related to my car, reading and music.
>Of course, you'll dismiss this because it's a study by the Royal >Society, Britain's leading scientific organization, and they've >obviously been co-opted by the radical left enviro loonies. I would not dismiss the Royal Society out of hand. But, neither do I accept every word publish as being absolute. Even the Brit scientists can make mistakes.
>Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this report, >oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm sure you >know, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that increase of 0.1 corresponds >to about 30 percent more concentration of hydrogen ions in ocean water. I was not aware that anyone tracked the acidity of the ocean since the start of the industrial revolution. Could that be because those who started it knew then that it would lead to problems of today and wanted to keep track of how well they were doing? And were the samples taken everywhere? Or just around population centers where industrial and human waste was dumped into the seas? Lots of ocean out there to test.
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"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 02 Jul 2005 03:43 GMT > I was not aware that anyone tracked the acidity of the ocean since the > start of the industrial revolution. Could that be because those who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and human waste was dumped into the seas? Lots of ocean out there to > test. Samples of ocean water and even of the atmosphere dating from the industrial revolution and well before are readily available. More anti-scientific mumbo jumbo, spike. You disappoint me.
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Spike - 02 Jul 2005 17:09 GMT Yeah, my parents said that too, and then I surpassed every wish they ever had for me and my siblings, while they, straight A honor students both, failed to live up to expectations.
And did I say they didn't take samples? No. I said I was not aware they did. That is not "anti" scientific. I do however wonder what their purpose was, and whether the quality of testing was as good then as now. And it is a valid point regarding where they were doing the testing. The same would apply today. If, as many people have across the US, you had a well for water, would the purity testing of that water be accurate if I tested water from a well four states over? I think not.
>> I was not aware that anyone tracked the acidity of the ocean since the >> start of the industrial revolution. Could that be because those who [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >industrial revolution and well before are readily available. More >anti-scientific mumbo jumbo, spike. You disappoint me. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
pawn - 02 Jul 2005 15:48 GMT >> Hmmm, please provide this report. I'd like to see the level of increase. > > Sorry. I assumed that you read the newspaper or knew how to google: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3571152.stm > http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=81584 > and many other recent news reports. You obviously have little tolerance for real discussion, which, if you go back and read my response, is all I was soliciting. Anyway, your first link references a study that will happen (or will have happened, based on the date), with no analysis or conclusions. The second one references a report, with a selective synopsis. I said I would like to see the report, not a sensationalized summary of alarming conclusions, without any backup. In another post, you chastise Spike for asking the obvious questions: are the measurements taken near urban centres? Is it a localized effect? Is it the surface only? Have they attempted to measure the pH at depth? Any rational person would want to know these things, and more, before blindly accepting such alarmism. I mean, you said you saw the report. Have you? Where? What was the answer to any of my questions above?
Furthermore, you posted earlier that "man-made activities pump about 25 billion metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere per year" (let's forget that it's metric tonnes, not metric tons). Your first link above states that "some 20-25 million tonnes of carbon dioxide are being added to the oceans each day". Then you go on to say "one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the ocean", your second link says "About half of the CO2 produced remains in the atmosphere while the rest dissolves in the oceans".
So, you're really all over the map here. I mean, if your number of roughly a third is correct, then the amount of CO2 we pump into the atmosphere is closer to 75B tonnes, not 25. Which is it? Personally, I think you go around reading dumbed down newspaper bits, and if they fit into your alarmist, arm flapping view of the world, you accept it as fact. When a true scientific analysis, that follows conventional methods, and the entire report is handed to you to review, such as the McKitrick & McIntyre report and link I gave you, you dismiss it offhand. (if it doesn't fit into your pre-concluded view of the issue). Then laughably accuse other people of the same behaviour.
> Of course, you'll dismiss this because it's a study by the Royal > Society, Britain's leading scientific organization, and they've > obviously been co-opted by the radical left enviro loonies. Actually, based on your selective snipping, and complete lack of response to every single corner I've boxed you into, I don't really think I need to accept or dismiss anything you've said or provided. It's like I'm talking to a wall.
> Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this report, > oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm sure you > know, the pH scale is logarithmic, so that increase of 0.1 corresponds > to about 30 percent more concentration of hydrogen ions in ocean water. Well, it's been a while since I studied acids and bases, but I'm confident you don't know sh.t about them based on your statement above (BTW, it's 26%, and it's not a "concentration" of H+, a term you seem to be very hung up on, it's the amount of H+).
rw - 03 Jul 2005 04:16 GMT >>> Hmmm, please provide this report. I'd like to see the level of >>> increase. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > see the report, not a sensationalized summary of alarming conclusions, > without any backup. My God, do I have to do everything for you? You can download a PDF version of the report from the Royal Society's web site. I would have thought that was the obvious place to look. Go to
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/document.asp?id=3249
and look for the link at the bottom. Is that specific enough?
Here are a few quotes from the summary:
"Calculations based on measurements of the surface oceans and our knowledge of ocean chemistry indicate that this uptake of CO2 has led to a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a 30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions."
"If global emissions of CO2 from human activities continue to rise on current trends then the average pH of the oceans could fall by 0.5 units (equivalent to a three fold increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions) by the year 2100. This pH is probably lower than has been experienced for hundreds of millennia and, critically, this rate of change is probably one hundred times greater than at any time over this period. The scale of the changes may vary regionally, which will affect the magnitude of the biological effects."
"All the evidence collected and modelled to date indicates that acidification of the oceans, and the changes in ocean chemistry that accompany it, are being caused by emissions of CO2 into the atmosphere from human activities. The magnitude of ocean acidification can be predicted with a high level of confidence."
> In another post, you chastise Spike for asking the > obvious questions: are the measurements taken near urban centres? Is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > said you saw the report. Have you? Where? What was the answer to any > of my questions above? It's all answered in the report.
>> Since the start of the industrial revolution, according to this >> report, oceanic acidity has risen about 0.1 on the pH scale. As I'm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Well, it's been a while since I studied acids and bases, Evidently.
> but I'm > confident you don't know sh.t about them based on your statement above > (BTW, it's 26%, and it's not a "concentration" of H+, a term you seem to > be very hung up on, it's the amount of H+). Once again, I'll quote from the report:
"Calculations based on measurements of the surface oceans and our knowledge of ocean chemistry indicate that this uptake of CO2 has led to a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a 30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions."
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pawn - 03 Jul 2005 06:34 GMT >> You obviously have little tolerance for real discussion, which, if you >> go back and read my response, is all I was soliciting. Anyway, your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > and look for the link at the bottom. Is that specific enough? So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped media excerpt?
> Here are a few quotes from the summary: > > "Calculations based on measurements of the surface oceans and our > knowledge of ocean chemistry indicate that this uptake of CO2 has led to > a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a > 30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions." (more of your laughable selective snipping duly noted)
The key word being "surface", which, of course, is a localized effect. I know, I know, you don't get it, which has been evident from the beginning of this thread.
> "If global emissions of CO2 from human activities continue to rise on > current trends then the average pH of the oceans could fall by 0.5 units [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > from human activities. The magnitude of ocean acidification can be > predicted with a high level of confidence." You get more and more hilarious as we go along. You provide more quotes from the dumbed down media synopsis, but nothing from the actual PDF, which you claim you've read, at the end.
>> In another post, you chastise Spike for asking the obvious questions: >> are the measurements taken near urban centres? Is it a localized [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It's all answered in the report. Maybe, and I guarantee I'll be back to belittle you some more once I've read it. It will be easy, since we both know you don't have the fortitude to do the same.
>> Well, it's been a while since I studied acids and bases, > > Evidently. (yawn...oh, actually, yawn and see below)
>> but I'm >> confident you don't know sh.t about them based on your statement above [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a reduction of the pH of surface seawater of 0.1 units, equivalent to a > 30% increase in the concentration of hydrogen ions." I don't need a report to tell me (for instance) antilog(-5.8)/antilog(-5.9) = about 1.26. The fact you do, shows you're well out of your element (and well into mine); you'd do well to drop this particular issue. Not to mention your report...err...sorry, your dumbed down media excerpt of the report you haven't read, has exactly the amount of credibility it should have for recklessly rounding up in the name of sensationalism: that is, none.
rw - 03 Jul 2005 15:54 GMT >>> You obviously have little tolerance for real discussion, which, if you >>> go back and read my response, is all I was soliciting. Anyway, your [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped media > excerpt? The idea was to draw you into saying some very foolish things. It worked beautifully. You see, I've actually read the report and you haven't.
>> Here are a few quotes from the summary: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > know, I know, you don't get it, which has been evident from the > beginning of this thread. Stop the presses! Pawn finds a vital error is the report! Oh, wait a minute. CO2 is absorbed at the surface of the ocean. Never mind.
Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it takes the oceans to mix?
>> "If global emissions of CO2 from human activities continue to rise on >> current trends then the average pH of the oceans could fall by 0.5 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > from the dumbed down media synopsis, but nothing from the actual PDF, > which you claim you've read, at the end. You don't seem to understand. Those quotes are taken directly from the summary of the report. They come from the "actual PDF," as you put it. They represent the key conclusions that the authors want to emphasize.
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pawn - 03 Jul 2005 16:08 GMT >> So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped media >> excerpt? > > The idea was to draw you into saying some very foolish things. It worked > beautifully. You see, I've actually read the report and you haven't. Sure you have.
>> (more of your laughable selective snipping duly noted) (and more, and more)
>> The key word being "surface", which, of course, is a localized effect. >> I know, I know, you don't get it, which has been evident from the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it takes the oceans > to mix? No. Do you?
>> You get more and more hilarious as we go along. You provide more >> quotes from the dumbed down media synopsis, but nothing from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > summary of the report. They come from the "actual PDF," as you put it. > They represent the key conclusions that the authors want to emphasize. Would that be the report that rounded 26% to 30% to make their point that much more poignant? Oh wait, you snipped that part too.
rw - 03 Jul 2005 16:52 GMT >>> So why didn't you post it, instead of some dumbed down BBC hyped >>> media excerpt? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sure you have. Yes, I have. How else could I quote directly from it?
>> Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a >> "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it >> takes the oceans to mix? > > No. Do you? Yes, I do, and you had read the report you would know too.
Here's a quote from the report:
"1.3 Acidification and the surface oceans In this report we use the term ‘surface oceans’ to describe the near-surface waters where exchange of CO2 occurs. Only the near-surface waters, or surface layers, of the oceans (down to about 100 m on average) are well mixed and so in close contact with the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere dissolves in the surface waters of the oceans and establishes a concentration in equilibrium with that of the atmosphere. Molecules of CO2 exchange readily with the atmosphere and on average only remain in the surface waters for about 6 years. However mixing and advection (vertical motions, sinking and upwelling) with the intermediate and deep waters of the oceans (down to about 1000 m and 4000 m respectively) is much slower, and takes place on timescales of several hundred years or more. Over time this mixing will spread the increased atmospheric uptake of CO2 to the deeper oceans. Owing to this slow mixing process most of the carbon stored in the upper waters of the oceans will be retained there for a long time. This makes the impacts in the surface waters greater than if the CO2 absorbed from the atmosphere was spread uniformly to all depths of the oceans."
I suppose you think we should wait "several hundreds of years or more" before making any conclusions about the acidification of the oceans.
> Would that be the report that rounded 26% to 30% to make their point > that much more poignant? Oh wait, you snipped that part too. The change in pH isn't EXACTLY 0.1, and the change is the concentration of hydrogen ions (or are you still defending your uninformed and incorrect interpretation of pH?) isn't EXACTLY 30%. Both figures are within the error bars of the measurements. That you would quibble over an imaginary discrepancy of 4% shows how weak and desperate your argument is. There's a nice review of the pH scale in the report. You should use it to brush up on your chemistry.
You should quit now before you embarrass yourself further. At a minimum, read the goddamn report before you continue to bloviate about it.
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pawn - 03 Jul 2005 18:11 GMT >> Sure you have. > > Yes, I have. How else could I quote directly from it? What a bizarre statement. You quoted a couple of paragraphs from the very beginning of the report's _summary_, and claim that as proof that you read it before being cornered into tracking it down and actually backing up your rhetoric? Sorry pal, we ain't buying that here, try selling it on another corner.
>>> Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a >>> "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Here's a quote from the report: (snip something you just went and found to continue the charade that you ever read the report before mindlessly accepting the media excerpt).
> I suppose you think we should wait "several hundreds of years or more" > before making any conclusions about the acidification of the oceans. No, I think something should be done to slow CO2 emissions, and always have. That has no bearing on my opposition to the laughable Kyoto protocol. In fact, I find this report very interesting since it seems to me easier to measure this alkalinity effect, and proving it's man-made, than global warming. You see, I try to learn both sides of a debate before mindlessly accepting it because it fits in with my preconceived view of the world.
>> Would that be the report that rounded 26% to 30% to make their point >> that much more poignant? Oh wait, you snipped that part too. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > argument is. There's a nice review of the pH scale in the report. You > should use it to brush up on your chemistry. The point was YOU don't or didn't know sh.t about it. The report can make that rounding error (although a scientific report shouldn't), but you spewed out the number 30% like you knew it all along, as if you hadn't read it from a tabloid summary.
> You should quit now before you embarrass yourself further. At a minimum, > read the goddamn report before you continue to bloviate about it. LOL! Is that what you think happened here? How about answering one single question I asked that you conveniently snipped. Here's the very first:
- why was the Earth's average temperature as high or higher in the 15th century than it is today and does that established fact give us any insight into whether humans are causing global warming today?
Look, we both know you finally downloaded the report to act like you're not the typical lib newspaper reading sheep, so type whatever smarmy response you need to feel like you've convinced anyone otherwise, but when you heft that big sigh after you take your fingers off the keyboard, throw in an extra sigh for me, would ya? I'm finished in this non-debate.
rw - 03 Jul 2005 20:03 GMT >>> Sure you have. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > backing up your rhetoric? Sorry pal, we ain't buying that here, try > selling it on another corner. I have the PDF on my computer. Why you would think I haven't read it when I'm f.cking QUOTING from it is beyond me.
>>>> Calling something that spans over 2/3 of the Earth'surface a >>>> "localized effect" is hilarious. Do you have any idea how long it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (snip something you just went and found to continue the charade that you > ever read the report before mindlessly accepting the media excerpt). WTF are you raving about? I quoted something directly from the report that answers your hilarious and desperate attempt to label acidity change in the ocean surface as a "localized effect" -- a claim, by the way, that you made BEFORE you read the report, even though you knew EXACTLY where to find it (because I told you). For all I know, you still haven't read it. And you have the preposterous gall to criticize me for allegedly not reading it. Unbelievable.
BTW, nice snip of the quote that shoots down your argument. I'll put it back in, just in case anyone missed it.
"1.3 Acidification and the surface oceans In this report we use the term ‘surface oceans’ to describe the near-surface waters where exchange of CO2 occurs. Only the near-surface waters, or surface layers, of the oceans (down to about 100 m on average) are well mixed and so in close contact with the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere dissolves in the surface waters of the oceans and establishes a concentration in equilibrium with that of the atmosphere. Molecules of CO2 exchange readily with the atmosphere and on average only remain in the surface waters for about 6 years. However mixing and advection (vertical motions, sinking and upwelling) with the intermediate and deep waters of the oceans (down to about 1000 m and 4000 m respectively) is much slower, and takes place on timescales of several hundred years or more. Over time this mixing will spread the increased atmospheric uptake of CO2 to the deeper oceans. Owing to this slow mixing process most of the carbon stored in the upper waters of the oceans will be retained there for a long time. This makes the impacts in the surface waters greater than if the CO2 absorbed from the atmosphere was spread uniformly to all depths of the oceans."
> LOL! Is that what you think happened here? How about answering one > single question I asked that you conveniently snipped. Here's the very [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > century than it is today and does that established fact give us any > insight into whether humans are causing global warming today? I didn't answer your question because I don't know whether the premise is true, and if even it is true (which it might be) I have no idea what the answer is.
I know your type, Pawn. It's common on Usenet. Arguments turn into huge, off-topic pissing matches deeply embedded in lines and lines of quoted text. It's fun for awhile, especially when you have the facts on your side, but eventually only about two people are reading the thread. I think we're reaching that point and it's time to move on to where only one person reads it, so you're on your own. EOT for me. You get the last word.
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Spike - 02 Jul 2005 02:52 GMT >> Even rw acknowledges that the climate models are really sucky. If so, >> how can a determination be based on such imperfection and be so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >very well documented. Scientists have been predicting a greenhouse >effect for many years. Now we're seeing it. Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural factors. And before scientists were predicting a greenhouse effect, they were predicting a nuclear winter, and had all manner of documentation to support what they claimed would happen. Now they have all manner of documentation to support the opposite. How long before they once again change directions? And can anyone who has witnessed this change within the scientific community believe whatever they happen to espouse? I can see where someone who has grown up with only the global warming/greenhouse effect would accept the present position, but it gets a bit questionable when they swear up and down were going to blot out the sun with pollution and bring on a nuclear winter, and then say were going to blot out the sun with pollution and bring on a greenhouse effect. It must be easy for some people to simple accept what they are told and never question. Guess that's just not me.
>I saw a report today that the acidity of the oceans in increasing. About >one third of the CO2 we produce from fossil fuels is absorbed by the >ocean, and that produces carbolic acid. No fancy theories or computer >models or difficult measurements are required. It's high school chemistry. Last I read, the melting of the polar ice would result in lower salinity.
Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 02 Jul 2005 03:46 GMT > Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains > to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural > factors. And before scientists were predicting a greenhouse effect, > they were predicting a nuclear winter, and had all manner of > documentation to support what they claimed would happen. That's either disingenuous or ignorant. The "nuclear winter" scenarios were a prediction of what would happen after a full-scale nuclear war. They had nothing to do with global warming, CO2, or climate change.
 Signature Cut "to the chase" for my email address.
Spike - 02 Jul 2005 18:12 GMT >> Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains >> to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >were a prediction of what would happen after a full-scale nuclear war. >They had nothing to do with global warming, CO2, or climate change. This time it was my turn to "misspeak", for it was the global cooling/ ice age hypothesis. I admit the "nuclear" winter was related to war.
However, to again resort to insult is unbecoming. Simply pointing out the error would have sufficed. You might consider that, while you might not alter someone's viewpoint with discussion or debate, you most certainly will never change it with insult, or inferring a sense of superiority over the person you are attempting to persuade. Nor is it good to lose your cool simply because another will not accede to your being heavy handed in style.
Recall the saying that people listen harder to the quiet voice, and shun the one who shouts. As a patrolman dealing with drunks who are shouting at me, I learned that by whispering, the drunk very often would quite down in an attempt to hear what I was saying. Once he (or occasionally a "she") was quieted, the rest of the contact became one of cooperation. Naturally, there were those who were not affected by any degree of civility. Still, it never helped for me to get upset or frustrated with either type over anything they said or did.
Would you yell at a child to get cooperation? It might work. But would they mind out of respect or out of fear? As a parent, I've found it easier to lead a child to agreement with what I would wish them to do, rather then to force my will upon them. Even better that they should think it their idea. Like the definition of tact and diplomacy. To tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they think it their idea and they enjoy the ride.
Granted there may be far more who see things as you do on a number of subjects, than see things as I do. Yet, if you desire to convert anyone, you might want to consider trying to understand their position, why they hold it, and map a route to help them see your position happens to be a more accurate one. Like teaching a child how to change a tire on a car. Help the child understand why they should do one task before doing another. For example; for safety. But do not be surprised if the child continues to want to do it their own way.
These are simplistic examples to be sure. But I have found they have a more positive response than throwing a lot of facts and figures at someone and expecting them to "get it". It did little good to quote passages from the vehicle code when a parent was driving around with a child on his or her lap. But a calm transfer of information regarding what might happen in the even of a sudden stop or accident generally got the response of, 'I never thought of that...'.
Of course, there were those who got upset for even being stopped. You can't win them all over to see things as you do, and there is no point in getting frustrated or losing sleep over it. There is a point where you must simply accept that the person you are attempting to convince will not change their view. And when that has been realized, you quit beating the dead horse, and hope to convince the next.
As an example; I tried to convince you of several points regarding the Kerry situation. You negated those points. I did not continue to attempt to alter your position. I had provided the benefit of my experience and I could see there was no point in further discussion as your mind was clearly set an not open to any other possibility. I would have been pleased if you had at least considered the possibilities I presented, just as I have considered what has been said regarding global warming, wherein you have made some interesting points for me to investigate. I have not rejected your points. I have simply raised questions that a reasonable person might ask (i.e. the testing of the waters for acidity, or why a majority of scientists supported global cooling and now support global warming based upon the same causation).
That said... it's now time for me to drive my beatermobile, smoking all the way, to the store to purchase some steaks and charcoal for this afternoon. : ) I hope your day turns out as well as mine.
Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
rw - 03 Jul 2005 04:19 GMT >>>Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains >>>to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > However, to again resort to insult is unbecoming. Simply pointing out > the error would have sufficed. That you could even make such an absurd mistake indicates (to me, at least) that you're both unfamiliar with the science and that you have a political agenda.
 Signature Cut "to the chase" for my email address.
Spike - 03 Jul 2005 20:08 GMT As if you have never in your life made a mistake? Hmmmm. And what possible political agenda could I have? That reply makes absolutely no sense. So, please tell. Perhaps if I knew what my political agenda is supposed to be I might make some investments so your could add personal gain to your accusations?
Why is it that when someone disagrees with you, and you can't convince them to change, you resort to accusations and insult?
>>>>Of course they are important. I've never denied that. It still remains >>>>to be seen whether or not the human impact is a great as natural [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >least) that you're both unfamiliar with the science and that you have a >political agenda. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Speech
pawn - 01 Jul 2005 23:46 GMT (snip all...well said, couldn't agree more)
RichA - 01 Jul 2005 20:47 GMT >> You're wrong that, Spike. Peer-reviewed scientific opinion is unanimous >> that man-made green-house-gas pollution is affecting the climate. It's [quoted text c |
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