Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / July 2005
Canada's new Toyota plant
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RichA - 10 Jul 2005 03:43 GMT One reason they gave for setting up (in Quebec, I think) was the illiteracy they found in the American South. Apparently, there is a real problem with things like reading and writing down there. So much so that they've had to do things with symbolism instead of writing. That is pretty bad for a first world country.
D.K.R. - 10 Jul 2005 04:08 GMT http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html
Toyota to build 100,000 vehicles per year in Woodstock, Ont., starting 2008
11:06 PM EDT Jul 09
New President of Toyota Motor Corp. Katsuaki Watanabe said that the automaker plans to build a new plant in Canada. (AP/Shizuo Kambayashi) STEVE ERWIN
WOODSTOCK, Ont. (CP) - Ontario workers are well-trained.
That simple explanation was cited as a main reason why Toyota turned its back on hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies offered from several American states in favour of building a second Ontario plant.
Industry experts say Ontarians are easier and cheaper to train - helping make it more cost-efficient to train workers when the new Woodstock plant opens in 2008, 40 kilometres away from its skilled workforce in Cambridge.
"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant.
Acknowledging it was the "worst-kept secret" throughout Ontario's automotive industry, Toyota confirmed months of speculation Thursday by announcing plans to build a 1,300-worker factory in the southwestern Ontario city.
"Welcome to Woodstock - that's something I've been waiting a long time to say," Ray Tanguay, president of Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada, told hundreds gathered at a high school gymnasium.
The plant will produce the RAV-4, dubbed by some as a "mini sport-utility vehicle" that Toyota currently makes only in Japan. It plans to build 100,000 vehicles annually.
The factory will cost $800 million to build, with the federal and provincial governments kicking in $125 million of that to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.
Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.
He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.
"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.
In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.
"Most people don't think of our health-care system as being a competitive advantage," he said.
Tanguay said Toyota's decision on where to build its seventh North American plant was "not only about money."
"It's about being in the right place," he said, noting the company can rely on the expertise of experienced Cambridge workers to help get Woodstock up and running.
Premier Dalton McGuinty said the money the province and Ottawa are pledging for the project is well-spent. His government has committed $400 million, including the latest Toyota package, to the province's auto sector, which helped finance $5-billion worth of industry projects.
"I think that's a great investment that will more than pay for itself in terms of new jobs and new economic returns," McGuinty said.
The provincial funds for the auto sector were drawn from a fund set up to attract investments specifically in that industry. McGuinty said no similar industry funds are being planned for other sectors, but added the province wants to attract biotechnology companies - those working on multibillion-dollar advanced medical research.
"What we have done for auto we would like to be able to do for biotech," he said. "That's where we're lending some real focus to at the present time."
Similarly, Emmerson said Ottawa is looking to help out industries that create "clusters" of jobs around them - such as in aerospace, shipbuilding, telecommunications and forestry - where supply bases build around a large manufacturer.
> One reason they gave for setting up > (in Quebec, I think) was the illiteracy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > had to do things with symbolism instead of writing. > That is pretty bad for a first world country. pawn - 10 Jul 2005 04:28 GMT > http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html (snip)
Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of Hunstville, right?
D.K.R. - 10 Jul 2005 04:55 GMT >> http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html > > (snip) > > Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of > Hunstville, right? So you're saying that rocket scientists would go work for Toyota?
pawn - 10 Jul 2005 15:14 GMT >> Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >> Hunstville, right? > > So you're saying that rocket scientists would go work for Toyota? No, I'm saying that the idea of not being able to find enough trained workers in any significantly populated area is silly. I've worked on an auto parts plant in Huntsville, the people seemed just like people everywhere.
EADGBE - 10 Jul 2005 16:50 GMT This might get me deported, but I am an American living in the south and I for one applaud Toyota's decision and totally understand their reasons for locating their plant in Ontario.
The south IS a backwards place. I taught high school here for three years and let me tell you, it was enough to make Mother Teresa lose her faith. You have never seen so many people who not only are expecting to, but actually WANTING to become nothing at all. They are sorry, pathetic losers and, incredibly, they are just fine with it!
By contrast, about a year ago I visited Canada for the first time and was immediately struck by how clean, friendly, and safe it was. Everyone I met was intelligent and very accomodating. Don't get me wrong, I am proud of my American roots, but in no way does that mean that I think America in general, and the south in particular, has nearly enough of its act together.
The south is a cesspool of ignorance, laziness, narrow-mindedness, futility, and complacence. My family and I are in the process of saving our funds for a BIG move, and I can honestly say that I can't wait to get out of here.
Max C. Webster III - 10 Jul 2005 17:21 GMT "EADGBE" <hwbosshoss@aol.com> done said:
> The south IS a backwards place. I taught high school here for three > years and let me tell you, it was enough to make Mother Teresa lose her > faith. You have never seen so many people who not only are expecting > to, but actually WANTING to become nothing at all. They are sorry, > pathetic losers and, incredibly, they are just fine with it! << snip >>
> The south is a cesspool of ignorance, laziness, narrow-mindedness, > futility, and complacence. In those three years that you've taught high school, you've done it enough places in "the south" to be able to determine that "the south" is a "cesspool of ignorance, laziness, narrow-mindedness, futility, and complacence."
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't teach logic.
> My family and I are in the process of saving our funds for a BIG move, and I > can honestly say that I can't wait to get out of here. We're not much for a.s prints on our door knobs, so please be careful on your way out.
- Max - ======= Would you believe this man has gone as far as tearing Dubya stickers off the bumpers of cars, and he voted for John F. Kerry for President? http://hometown.aol.com/maxx2112/
Just Say No to 6:5 Blackjack! http://www.cafepress.com/justsaynoto6to5/
Michael Johnson, PE - 10 Jul 2005 17:35 GMT > <snip> > > The south is a cesspool of ignorance, laziness, narrow-mindedness, > futility, and complacence. My family and I are in the process of > saving our funds for a BIG move, and I can honestly say that I can't > wait to get out of here. What makes you think any of these "better" places wants you moving in? After all you're just another ignorant member of the cesspool that apparently isn't smart enough to already have the funds for the BIG move. My guess is that your new neighbors will see that you can take the idiot out out of the cesspool but you can't take the cesspool out of the idiot.
SVTKate - 10 Jul 2005 17:39 GMT "EADGBE" <hwbosshoss@aol.com> wrote **snip**
: The south is a cesspool of ignorance, laziness, narrow-mindedness, : futility, and complacence. My family and I are in the process of : saving our funds for a BIG move, and I can honestly say that I can't : wait to get out of here. The south has it's drawbacks, sadly some of what you say is true. Many people do not have high ambition. Generations of people having to work just to keep their families fed and sheltered have made it so that hard work is the way of life, not higher education. BUT if Toyota was using it as an excuse not to build in the US, why not choose another geographic location for their plant?
Sorry assed, uppity, slant eyed, sonsabitches... let them go to Canada.
It was really hard to resist the simple statement: "Don't let the door hit you in the a.s on your way out"
Kate in Tennessee
Michael Johnson, PE - 10 Jul 2005 18:06 GMT > "EADGBE" <hwbosshoss@aol.com> wrote > **snip** [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > It was really hard to resist the simple statement: > "Don't let the door hit you in the a.s on your way out" I'll crawl out on a limb and guess old bosshoss is a liberal of the "Bush hating" variety that is pissed the south has gone conservative. They like to denigrate the people living in the "red" states as being ignorant, un-enlightened, racist, gay-hating, religious prudes. He's likely a card carrying member of the NEA too. But then again, I could be wrong. Care to bet on it? ;)
Michael Johnson, PE - 10 Jul 2005 17:52 GMT > The south IS a backwards place. I taught high school here for three > years and let me tell you, it was enough to make Mother Teresa lose her > faith. You have never seen so many people who not only are expecting > to, but actually WANTING to become nothing at all. They are sorry, > pathetic losers and, incredibly, they are just fine with it! With such a crappy attitude I can see why your students aren't too motivated. You do realize that, in large part, it's teachers like you that cause many of our students to do so poorly? Do us all a favor and stop teaching.
D.K.R. - 10 Jul 2005 18:24 GMT Personally, I didn't believe it when RichA made his post. I looked for the article and posted it verbatim. Also note that it's a biased source. The quotes come from the president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association of Canada. The writer should have jumped on his bias and challenged it rather than accepting it without challenge.
>>> Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out >>> of Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > auto parts plant in Huntsville, the people seemed just like people > everywhere. RichA - 10 Jul 2005 21:05 GMT >Personally, I didn't believe it when RichA made his post. I looked for >the article and posted it verbatim. Also note that it's a biased source. >The quotes come from the president of the Automotive Parts >Manufacturers' Association of Canada. The writer should have jumped on >his bias and challenged it rather than accepting it without challenge. There should be figures on literacy rates all across the U.S. to reference. After talking to a friend who has done extensive business travel to areas in the U.S. (Alabama, North Dakota, Georgia, etc) my opinion is that the problem in some of these areas is the same as those in primarily African-American ghettos in the North; Poverty. Now, what has KEPT these areas in poverty all these years is debatable, but it's clear that if the intelligence exists in a group, they eventually work their way out of poverty, as many immigrant groups to the U.S. have done for the past 200 years. One thing is guaranteed, however; Sitting around, lamenting your lot in life and worshipping ignorance is no way to better yourself. -Rich
>>>> Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out >>>> of Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> auto parts plant in Huntsville, the people seemed just like people >> everywhere. RichA - 10 Jul 2005 20:58 GMT >>> Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>> Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >auto parts plant in Huntsville, the people seemed just like people >everywhere. Why would the Japanese say it, to intentially upset the U.S.?
pawn - 10 Jul 2005 23:28 GMT >>>>Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>>>Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Why would the Japanese say it, to intentially upset the U.S.? Personally, based on experience working with Japanese people, I doubt very much the quotes are accurate.
D.K.R. - 10 Jul 2005 23:48 GMT The quotes are NOT coming from the Japanese. The article may make it seem that way, but they are actually coming from Gerry Fedchun who is president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association. He obviously has some bias in the matter.
>>>>> Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out >>>>> of Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Personally, based on experience working with Japanese people, I doubt > very much the quotes are accurate. SVTKate - 11 Jul 2005 02:02 GMT "D.K.R." <stigremovethisnasty@gmail.com> wrote . He obviously has some bias in the matter.
Ya think?
David Schierholz - 11 Jul 2005 03:40 GMT >Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >Hunstville, right? Ok- Probably not the group that cares about such things, but-
You are citing as an example of intelligence and work ethic an organization that put a man on the moon in 1969 and hasn't put one farther than low earth orbit since?
David
Michael Johnson, PE - 11 Jul 2005 05:03 GMT >>Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > organization that put a man on the moon in 1969 and hasn't put one > farther than low earth orbit since? This isn't due to lack of intelligence or work ethic. Its due to lack of funding.
RichA - 11 Jul 2005 05:26 GMT >>>Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>>Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >This isn't due to lack of intelligence or work ethic. Its due to lack >of funding. It's due to politics. $160b has gone into that USELESS ISS and that is the reason for the lack of money. A make-work project for out of work Russian nuclear scientists. Thankfully, the admin and NASA are now making noises that the ISS is being back-burnered. I hope it's left to disintigrate, what a waste.
Michael Johnson, PE - 11 Jul 2005 06:36 GMT >>>>Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>>>Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thankfully, the admin and NASA are now making noises that the ISS is > being back-burnered. I hope it's left to disintigrate, what a waste. I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is learned developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a mission to Mars, which seems the next logical step in space exploration with the possible exception of a permanent moon base. Developing the technology to reach Mars, and return, will take time... a long time IMO. I think it will take another 25-30 years before it is remotely considered feasible.
SVTKate - 11 Jul 2005 13:04 GMT : I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is learned : developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a mission to Mars, : which seems the next logical step in space exploration with the possible : exception of a permanent moon base. Developing the technology to reach : Mars, and return, will take time... a long time IMO. I think it will : take another 25-30 years before it is remotely considered feasible. I am still having trouble understanding WHY we need to go to Mars.
Seems like a huge waste of money to me. HUGE waste of money.
Like this last little $300 million foofah... lets shoot a rocket at an asteroid. $300 freaking MILLION dollars, good thing this country isn't in debt, or that might be considered a waste of money.
I grew up knowing that if you can't pay your bills, you can't buy new toys either. Why our government cannot understand that is beyond me.
Kate
Michael Johnson, PE - 11 Jul 2005 14:37 GMT > : I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is learned > : developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a mission to Mars, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > either. > Why our government cannot understand that is beyond me. IMO, there is a real good reason for doing it and it really has nothing to do with reaching Mars or any other planet. Sooner or later, an asteroid is going to be heading toward our planet. If it is big enough it would destroy life as we know it and likely exterminate mankind. Even a smaller impact could kill billions of people. All this space exploration will enable us to better detect and, if necessary, maybe deflect any body that is on a collision course with earth. Granted the odds are slim for a collision but it has happened in the past and it will happen in the future. It is not a matter of if but when. Plus, there are usually some very good spin-off technologies coming from space programs that seem to be very useful in everyday life. Just look at the things we take for granted today that were derived from the 1960's space programs.
Plus if the government didn't spend it on space programs they would probably spend on something even more useless.
Joe - 11 Jul 2005 23:12 GMT >> : I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is >> : learned developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> new toys either. >> Why our government cannot understand that is beyond me. Dubya's the one who doesn't get it.
> IMO, there is a real good reason for doing it and it really has > nothing to do with reaching Mars or any other planet. Sooner or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > very useful in everyday life. Just look at the things we take for > granted today that were derived from the 1960's space programs. I think it's more like we can learn the origins of where we came from by studying other planets and the universe. This, in turn, can help us develop better things in our time, i.e., cures for diseases etc.
> Plus if the government didn't spend it on space programs they would > probably spend on something even more useless. They're already doing that. Look at the money (and lives) being spent in Iraq.
SVTKate - 11 Jul 2005 23:25 GMT : >> Why our government cannot understand that is beyond me. : : Dubya's the one who doesn't get it. Oh no, you did NOT just say that! This has been going on for AGES... no freaking way can you blame it on just one administration.
: I think it's more like we can learn the origins of where we came from : by studying other planets and the universe. This, in turn, can help [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : They're already doing that. Look at the money (and lives) being spent : in Iraq. Ahhh... I get it now...
*disgusted look*
Joe - 12 Jul 2005 03:33 GMT >: >> Why our government cannot understand that is beyond me. >: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This has been going on for AGES... no freaking way can you blame it > on just one administration. IIRC, Dubya inherited a surplus. Look what he did with it. Yes, one administration.
>: I think it's more like we can learn the origins of where we came >: from by studying other planets and the universe. This, in turn, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > *disgusted look* Yeah, I get it now too. These Bush brothers need to leave. One's screwing us at the federal level and the other's screwing us at the state level. I've got a disgusted look too.
Michael Johnson, PE - 12 Jul 2005 01:25 GMT >>>: I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is >>>: learned developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > They're already doing that. Look at the money (and lives) being spent > in Iraq. IMO, it will take 20-30 years before we really know if the lives and money were wasted.
Joe - 12 Jul 2005 03:33 GMT >>>>: I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is >>>>: learned developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > IMO, it will take 20-30 years before we really know if the lives and > money were wasted. Can you say 'Viet Nam'? Sure you can.
Michael Johnson, PE - 12 Jul 2005 04:29 GMT >>>>>: I don't see it as being wasted, necessarily. Much of what is >>>>>: learned developing the ISS will be applicable to sending a [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Can you say 'Viet Nam'? Sure you can. I don't think you can equate the two after just 2-3 years in Iraq. Vietnam was 10-15 years in the making. Plus the casualties aren't anywhere near the level of Vietnam at its worst, or best, for that matter. Vietnam was a regional power struggle between the USSR and the US and this was the real reason the war lasted so long. We could have won it but we would probably have ended up fighting the Chinese, just like in Korea. Iraq is not even close to this type of war. The recent news report seem to suggest that troop levels will drop by 100,000 next year. I hope they are correct.
Bob Willard - 12 Jul 2005 13:34 GMT Michael Johnson, PE wrote <and I snipped>:
> I don't think you can equate the two after just 2-3 years in Iraq.
> Vietnam was 10-15 years in the making. Plus the casualties aren't > anywhere near the level of Vietnam at its worst, or best, for that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > news report seem to suggest that troop levels will drop by 100,000 next > year. I hope they are correct. US involvement in Vietnam lasted nearly 30 years -- from using US military ships and planes to help the French move troops and supplies to Vietnam starting in late 1945, until the fall of Saigon in the spring of 1975.
To put Vietnam (and Iraq) in perspective, I highly recommend Barbara Tuchman's splendid history, "The March of Folly". If only the Dubya gang had read and understood it ...
 Signature Cheers, Bob
Michael Johnson, PE - 12 Jul 2005 15:36 GMT > Michael Johnson, PE wrote <and I snipped>: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Tuchman's splendid history, "The March of Folly". If only the Dubya gang > had read and understood it ... I'm not familiar with the book you referenced but nobody knows the outcome of the Iraq war and no one knows if it will parallel Vietnam or any other war. Time will tell if it was worth fighting and even then I doubt everyone will agree. All we have now are opinions about it and nobody can prove their opinion is right.
As I told Joe, history will be the judge of President Bush. There are also many people who just hate him and there is absolutely nothing he can do in their eyes that is acceptable. Basically, they have no ability to be objective. Many of the complainers on the Iraq war are these people and they ignore the good things that have resulted from the conflict and just dwell on the negative. Many others are just out to make political hay from complaining about the war. For people that are motivated by these reasons it is a waste of time to discuss the topic with them. They are not really wanting good a debate. They just want to damage President Bush any and every way they can.
Joe - 13 Jul 2005 01:25 GMT >> Michael Johnson, PE wrote <and I snipped>: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > outcome of the Iraq war and no one knows if it will parallel Vietnam > or any other war. The lack of a good reason for being there and the lack of an exit strategy is certainly common to both.
> Time will tell if it was worth fighting and even > then I doubt everyone will agree. All we have now are opinions > about it and nobody can prove their opinion is right. Exactly. And that's just what we're doing here. Posting opinions.
> As I told Joe, history will be the judge of President Bush. As it is for everyone.
> There > are also many people who just hate him and there is absolutely [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > good a debate. They just want to damage President Bush any and > every way they can. Michael, I think the polarization you describe is largely due to (a) the way in which this administration carried out the whole post-9/11 thing (Saddam/Iraq/Bin Laden/WMD/etc.), (b) what they actually did, and (c) the perception (real or imagined) that the current administration is patronizing the American public.
I, along with many others, think that the American public was basically deceived and the present administration continues to this day to "spin" the whole thing for their own benefit. At this point, people are downright angry that the administration thinks they are that gullible. Some people believe that the administration has downright lied to them.
The question that people ask themselves is: "Are we better off now than we were before?" I certainly believe that the country is _not_ better off now. In no particular order, we're basically hated around the world, we've got the worst debt we've ever seen, we're in a war that was started for dubious reasons and has no end in sight, and we've got a president that's trying to dismantle Social Security.
I'd say there are at least a few damn good reasons why a lot of people are upset with this guy.
Michael Johnson, PE - 13 Jul 2005 04:06 GMT >>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote <and I snipped>: >>> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > that gullible. Some people believe that the administration has > downright lied to them. I'll admit that I'm a hawk when it comes to national defense. Basically, if people are trying to kill us, I want to error on the side of caution and take out the threat before they get a chance to organize and come after us on our own soil. If our government would have taken care of business during the 1990's, especially after the first World Trade Center bombing, 9-11 would likely have never happened. Now I don't want to turn this into a liberal verses conservative rant but the ones responsible for our security during the 1990's was the Democrats. Clinton was our Commander In Chief. His security policies let Bin Laden and his cronies languish in Afghanistan and hatch plans to kill us and many other people. Clinton knew he was a threat because he tried to kill him with a few cruise missiles while he was in office. One well placed CIA sniper during the 1990's would have saved the world a whole lot of grief. The fact 9-11 occurred makes me think their (Democrats) way of dealing with terrorists was not effective. Leaving them alone got us nothing but 3,000 dead people in a matter of hours. I think many people see it this way too. 9-11 was the price we paid for Clinton ignoring terrorist threats and castrating the CIA. To me, it is a clear black and white issue.
One thing I know as an indisputable fact is it is better to fight a war on your enemy's soil than your own. I'm a firm believer in taking it to them so they can't get to us here. I think that in the days after 9-11 most of us expected to be attacked numerous times over the last four years. Now we can all guess why we haven't been hit but you can't deny that part of the reason is that we have kept the terrorists busy in the Middle East. I think this is exactly why Bush went into Iraq. He wanted to make a situation that would attract terrorists and draw them into a conflict with our military. Since Saddam promoted terrorism he was also part of the overall problem. No one can deny that he needed to go away for a multitude of reasons. Bush put it all on the line when he went into Iraq and I think in his mind it was a vital step in protecting the country. He knew it could prevent him from being re-elected and took the gamble.
I know many people don't like what Bush has done in the war on terror but many of those people hated him before he took office and they were itching to politicize the war at the first opportunity. If Bush was Clinton, the Democrats would be swinging the war hatchet with wild abandon getting every political benefit they could, just like Bush has. They gave Clinton a free pass on Kosovo. If Bush had done it they would have tried to crucify him like they are now. As for what percentage of the US population supports Bush all you need to do is look at his poll numbers regarding the overall job he has done fighting terrorism. They have been consistently high since 9-11. If you isolate parts of it, like the Iraq war, the numbers drop but overall he gets good marks. Now I think the reason for this is that most people know that war is a hit and miss proposition. While he hasn't made 100% right decisions most people feel he is working in the country's best interest and he means business when it come to killing the people who are out to kill us and that is what the majority of us want him to do.
I think many of us have forgotten that the terrorists we are fighting want to wipe us off the face of the earth. If they could they would detonate nuclear warheads in every city in the US and not feel a bit of guilt. They want to do far more to us than Hitler ever planned. They are very serious about killing us. Serious enough to kill themselves to get the job done. I haven't forgotten this and neither has Bush. IMO, that is why he will never let up on them.
One last point, when I hear people say they feel deceived by Bush I look back at history and ask "What President didn't use some amount of deception at the start of a war?" Roosevelt was a master at it prior to WWII. Johnson did it with Vietnam. Truman did it with Korea. What makes this war any different? Bush saw a threat that, in his opinion, needed dealt with. No president goes to war without selling it to the public. The country had a chance to judge him during the last election. He was re-elected. Did he use the war for political benefit? Yes he did. Did the Democrats use the war for political benefit? Yes they did. I guess they are even then. ;)
> The question that people ask themselves is: "Are we better off now > than we were before?" I certainly believe that the country is _not_ > better off now. In no particular order, we're basically hated around > the world, we've got the worst debt we've ever seen, we're in a war > that was started for dubious reasons and has no end in sight, and > we've got a president that's trying to dismantle Social Security. How much has the value of your home increased since Bush has been in office? Around here most homes have nearly doubled in value. Is home ownership at an all time high? Yes it is. Is it at an all time high among minorities? Yes it is. Am I making more money than I was 5 years ago? Yes I am. Has inflation been in check for the last five years? Yes it has. Has interest rates been at historic lows the last five years? Yes they have. Have people greatly reduced their mortgage payments through refinancing during the last five years? Yes they have. Did Bush inherit a recession when he took office? Yes he did. Are we in a recession now? No we are not.
Not everything is perfect but we are far from circling the economic drain. The debt we have now, as a percentage of GDP, is not the worst we have seen and it is much lower than most other advanced countries. Check out this link: http://tinyurl.com/8vpfd It shows tax revenues are increasing far beyond expectations. Imagine that, taxes were cut and tax revenues are up. Maybe Bush wasn't just blowing hot air campaigning in the last election. ;)
As for dismantling Social Security that isn't the plan Bush is promoting. Every person has the choice to keep the status quo or put a portion of their withholding into a private account. If your son would have that option, over his life span he would get a far, far better return on his money verses what he would see from the government. Chile made private accounts available to their citizens years and years ago and in the beginning very few signed up for it. The ones that did had much more money to retire on than those that didn't. Now over 90% of the work force signs up for the private accounts. If it worked in Chile I can't see why it wouldn't work here. one of my biggest gripes with Democrats is they think they know how to spend our money better than we do. They want us dependent on the government and the best way to accomplish it is to tax the hell out of us and make the government the sole provider for vital services such as health care and retirement checks.
> I'd say there are at least a few damn good reasons why a lot of people > are upset with this guy. Reasons can be found to dislike anybody. Look what they came up with for Jesus Christ. ;)
Damn, Joe, I spent WWWAAYYY too much time posting this response. :)
Joe - 14 Jul 2005 02:14 GMT >>>>Michael Johnson, PE wrote <and I snipped>: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > terrorist threats and castrating the CIA. To me, it is a clear > black and white issue. Interesting comments, Michael. To a point, I agree, but I don't think that 9/11 was a direct result of the first WTC bombing. Believe me, the Democrats are no better than the Republicans (I'm a registered Independent, btw), and neither party has a clue in dealing with modern day terrorism. Another problem I have with Bush is that he honestly thinks he does.
> One thing I know as an indisputable fact is it is better to fight a > war on your enemy's soil than your own. I'm a firm believer in > taking it to them so they can't get to us here. This works both ways, however. When on foreign soil, you're not in your natural habitat. Other things being equal, the locals have the definite advantage.
> I think that in the > days after 9-11 most of us expected to be attacked numerous times [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bush went into Iraq. He wanted to make a situation that would > attract terrorists and draw them into a conflict with our military. Personally, I think you give him too much credit. It's logical reasoning, but if it's true, then why hasn't the administration put that kind of spin on it?
> Since Saddam promoted terrorism he was also part of the overall > problem. No one can deny that he needed to go away for a multitude > of reasons. Bush put it all on the line when he went into Iraq and > I think in his mind it was a vital step in protecting the country. > He knew it could prevent him from being re-elected and took the > gamble. That's the scary part - Bush really thinks he's following the right course. But his "stay the course" plan isn't a plan. It's simply status quo.
I think Bush went after Saddam to avenge his father. It's that simple. I honestly don't believe that Bush and his staff ever rationalized what you put forth above for a single second. Those guys are simply not like that.
> I know many people don't like what Bush has done in the war on > terror but many of those people hated him before he took office and > they were itching to politicize the war at the first opportunity. > If Bush was Clinton, the Democrats would be swinging the war hatchet > with wild abandon getting every political benefit they could, just > like Bush has. I think that's conjecture. At least to the point of going after Saddam. If we were going to go to war, we should've attacked the right target.
> They gave Clinton a free pass on Kosovo. If Bush had done it they > would have tried to crucify him like they are now. As for what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you isolate parts of it, like the Iraq war, the numbers drop but > overall he gets good marks. Michael, I don't know what you're reading, but everything I've seen indicates that Bush's general approval rating is the lowest of his presidency.
> Now I think the reason for this is that > most people know that war is a hit and miss proposition. While he > hasn't made 100% right decisions most people feel he is working in > the country's best interest and he means business when it come to > killing the people who are out to kill us and that is what the > majority of us want him to do. Sorry, but I disagree entirely. Bush still hasn't admitted to any mistakes; he believes he's the perfect president. This is what I was referring to earlier - Bush's insistence on trying to "convince" us that he's doing the right thing to the point of insulting us (and the rest of the world). "Mission accomplished" indeed...
> I think many of us have forgotten that the terrorists we are > fighting want to wipe us off the face of the earth. Perhaps many, but not most. Nobody yet has come up with a credible plan to deal with worldwide terrorism as we now know it in this day and age.
> If they could > they would detonate nuclear warheads in every city in the US and not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this and neither has Bush. IMO, that is why he will never let up on > them. If that's what he's doing, he's doing it all wrong IMO. There's no way that a single country with limited military resources can wipe out terrorism on its own turf halfway around the world. The first thing he should've done was cement his relationship with the rest of the civilized world and formed strong alliances aginst world terrorism. Instead, he's talking loudly and carrying his big stick all alone. The result is that these maniacs you so aptly described are just waiting in the wings to slaughter whatever troops we send over there.
> One last point, when I hear people say they feel deceived by Bush I > look back at history and ask "What President didn't use some amount [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > during the last election. > He was re-elected. Sure, because nobody was there to run against him. Like I said earlier, I'm certainly no Democrat. ;)
> Did he use the war for political benefit? Yes > he > did. Did the Democrats use the war for political benefit? Yes they > did. I guess they are even then. ;) I don't see it as a contest at all. Yes, presidents put spin on their actions to make them look favorable to the American public. But it's more than war that we're talking about here. Bush is spinning everything he's doing, from Saddam to WMD to Social Security to No Child Left Behind to the deficit. They're all miserable failures IMO.
>> The question that people ask themselves is: "Are we better off now >> than we were before?" I certainly believe that the country is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > home ownership at an all time high? Yes it is. Is it at an all > time high among minorities? Yes it is. All true, but meaningless. So what if our homes are worth double, or even triple? We're actually worse off because (a) it's virtually impossible to move "up" unless you move to a more depressed area, and (b) your taxes on the inflated value of your new home will kill you.
> Am I making more money than > I was 5 years ago? Yes I am. Am I spending more than I was 5 years ago? Yes I am. What's the net profit after everything's said and done? Mine's not any better than it was 5 years ago. Bush's "tax cuts" haven't done a thing for me. Remember a few years ago when we all got a nice check from the government? Well, how many of us realized at the time that we'd have to pay tax on that the next year?
> Has inflation been in check for the > last five years? Yes it has. True, but energy costs are now killing us. The cost of everything is going up with no end in sight because of the price of fuel.
> Has interest rates been at historic > lows the last five years? Yes they have. Another double-edged sword. Our investments aren't doing sh.t. My 401k is sitting right on top of the toilet bowl.
> Have people greatly > reduced their mortgage payments through refinancing during the last > five years? Yes they have. And Americans are now more in debt then they've ever been in the history of the country.
> Did Bush inherit a recession when he took office? Yes he did. > Are we > in a recession now? No we are not. Did Bush inherit a defecit when he took office? No he did not. Do we have the worst defecit this country's ever seen? Yes we do. Who's going to pay for all this wreckless spending? Our kids and their kids.
> Not everything is perfect but we are far from circling the economic > drain. The debt we have now, as a percentage of GDP, is not the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > taxes were cut and tax revenues are up. Maybe Bush wasn't just > blowing hot air campaigning in the last election. ;) And I'll bet you a beer that Bush didn't have a clue as to the additional tax revenue. Here's a different take on the same story: http://tinyurl.com/bmy7j
> As for dismantling Social Security that isn't the plan Bush is > promoting. By removing contributions to it, that's what it amounts to.
> Every person has the choice to keep the status quo or > put a portion of their withholding into a private account. Exactly. Those portions that are removed will obviously diminish the fund.
> If your > son would have that option, over his life span he would get a far, > far better return on his money verses what he would see from the > government. Michael, take a look at your portfolio and tell me that with a straight face. :)
Simply put, there's no guarantee with private plans.
> Chile made private accounts available to their citizens > years and years ago and in the beginning very few signed up for it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > tax the hell out of us and make the government the sole provider for > vital services such as health care and retirement checks. The Democrats are idiots too. The obvious solution for SS is to tax the money over the cap. But Bush will never do that because his rich friends would have to pay more.
Anyway, here's a basic idea that makes a lot more sense than Bush's plan: http://tinyurl.com/574zk
>> I'd say there are at least a few damn good reasons why a lot of >> people are upset with this guy. > > Reasons can be found to dislike anybody. Look what they came up > with for Jesus Christ. ;) Yes, and look where we are today. :p
> Damn, Joe, I spent WWWAAYYY too much time posting this response. :) As did I in responding! But this is certainly better than watching idiotic reruns on TV or reading some of the other drivel in here... ;)
Michael, thanks for an intelligent, well though out post.
Michael Johnson, PE - 14 Jul 2005 06:45 GMT >> <major snippage applied> >>I'll admit that I'm a hawk when it comes to national defense. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > day terrorism. Another problem I have with Bush is that he honestly > thinks he does. IMO, there is one thing we can do that would greatly reduce our problems with the Middle East.... QUIT BUYING THEIR F#$$ING OIL!!! Sorry for yelling but for Christ's sake why our fearless leaders (Repubs and Dems) can't get this accomplished is a shame. Actually, I do know. It's because we, the voters, won't remove their a.ses from office and vote in people who will get the job done. We're funding their damn jihad!
>>One thing I know as an indisputable fact is it is better to fight a >>war on your enemy's soil than your own. I'm a firm believer in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > natural habitat. Other things being equal, the locals have the definite > advantage. True but when I see children, buildings and civilians being blown up in Iraq I'm sure glad it is there and not here. My pet peeve here is why we can't provide better border security.
>>I think that in the >>days after 9-11 most of us expected to be attacked numerous times [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > reasoning, but if it's true, then why hasn't the administration put that > kind of spin on it? I've heard him say something similar. He has mentioned the bit about fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here. One other thing that I think will affect the Middle East is if we can inject a lethal dose of "Americanization" into Iraq and let it spread like a virus through the region. I think that once they get a taste of economic and political freedom, blue jeans, fast food, porn on demand etc. they are done for. :)
>>Since Saddam promoted terrorism he was also part of the overall >>problem. No one can deny that he needed to go away for a multitude [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > course. But his "stay the course" plan isn't a plan. It's simply > status quo. I think we are expecting instant gratification from Iraq. It just isn't something that can be completed on a planned time table. Too many variables are in the equation. The way out is to train the Iraqis to defend themselves and give them time to establish a fairly stable government. The people there have not had freedom for 35 years. There is a whole generation that probably can't even put their mind around the concept of living in freedom. I was doubting that they had the desire to make it happen until 8 million (around 60% turnout) of them turned out to vote even though they were being told by the terrorists their blood would flood the streets. The Iraqis are really getting along fine with each other. It's the outsiders coming through Syria that are causing 90% of the trouble. I think once we leave much of the violence will cease.
> I think Bush went after Saddam to avenge his father. It's that simple. > I honestly don't believe that Bush and his staff ever rationalized what > you put forth above for a single second. Those guys are simply not like > that. I'm sure there was some satisfaction in that respect. I think it was about 0.5% of why he went into Iraq though.
>>I know many people don't like what Bush has done in the war on >>terror but many of those people hated him before he took office and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think that's conjecture. At least to the point of going after Saddam. > If we were going to go to war, we should've attacked the right target. I think Iraq was also a convenient target to show the region that the US wasn't a paper tiger. We waltzed into Iraq and kicked Saddam's a.s is record time and part of the reason was to show the rest of the area how easy it is to remove someone from power. Many of these rulers know we can't police the entire middle east but we can put the cross hairs on any given regime and it would not exist anymore. It sure made Khadfi play nice!
>> They gave Clinton a free pass on Kosovo. If Bush had done it they >>would have tried to crucify him like they are now. As for what [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > indicates that Bush's general approval rating is the lowest of his > presidency. I'm not referring to overall ratings. Just the "war on terror" numbers. The overall ratings are deceiving IMO. If they were accurate he shouldn't have been re-elected. Many of those dissatisfied people are upset because he isn't conservative or hawkish enough.
>>Now I think the reason for this is that >>most people know that war is a hit and miss proposition. While he [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > he's doing the right thing to the point of insulting us (and the rest of > the world). "Mission accomplished" indeed... No politician admits to mistakes unless they are caught on video or there's DNA evidence. Clinton tried to convince us that a BJ wasn't sex rather than say he lied! I think Bush, or the military's, biggest mistake in Iraq was not sealing off the border with Syria and Iran. They need to put a mass of troops on Syria's border and tell them to stop letting the terrorists use their border area as a staging base. Bush should take a lesson from Regan and give old Bashar al-Asad a love tap with a cruise missile.
>>I think many of us have forgotten that the terrorists we are >>fighting want to wipe us off the face of the earth. > > Perhaps many, but not most. Nobody yet has come up with a credible plan > to deal with worldwide terrorism as we now know it in this day and age. IMO, the only way to solve the problem is to bring democracy and economic advancement to the region. It is a lofty goal but I think it is the only way to win the war on terror. The people in the middle east have very little freedom and most are dirt poor. It is the true cause of the discontent that the religious leaders are able to exploit.
>>If they could >>they would detonate nuclear warheads in every city in the US and not [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > result is that these maniacs you so aptly described are just waiting in > the wings to slaughter whatever troops we send over there. The French, Germans, Russians and the UN would never have cooperated with us. They were making too much money from Saddam. The "Oil for Food" program was rife with corruption. Last I heard there was 21 BILLION dollars slid into the palms of these guys. Why on earth would they support us and cut off their Saddam subsidies? IMO, they figured Bush would never follow through on his threat to invade Iraq. Hell, Saddam never thought he would do it. I bet he now wishes he had let the UN inspectors verify he had no WMD's!
>>One last point, when I hear people say they feel deceived by Bush I >>look back at history and ask "What President didn't use some amount [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Sure, because nobody was there to run against him. Like I said earlier, > I'm certainly no Democrat. ;) The Democrats really did run weak candidates the last two elections, IMO. The far left wing has taken over the party and controls the primary elections. As long as they do this the Dems will keep putting up liberal candidates that can't win. It's the equivalent of Pat Buchanan running the Republican Party. The next election should be a doozy if Hillary runs. It will make the last two look like Mr. Rogers episodes.
>>Did he use the war for political benefit? Yes >> he [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > everything he's doing, from Saddam to WMD to Social Security to No Child > Left Behind to the deficit. They're all miserable failures IMO. I don't agree but the Dems aren't suggesting anything that is better. In fact they aren't suggesting much of anything at all. At least the Republicans are thowing ideas into the arena.
>>>The question that people ask themselves is: "Are we better off now >>>than we were before?" I certainly believe that the country is [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > impossible to move "up" unless you move to a more depressed area, and > (b) your taxes on the inflated value of your new home will kill you. There are many people in this area sitting on $200k-$300k worth of equity in their houses. No matter how you slice it they are ahead. Most people can take that equity and move to bigger house or they can stay where they are and let it grow further. Many people here are selling their homes, taking the equity and moving into their dream house. They certainly aren't complaining. :)
>>Am I making more money than >>I was 5 years ago? Yes I am. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > government? Well, how many of us realized at the time that we'd have to > pay tax on that the next year? As we have talked before, the technical fields have seen a tremendous increase in salaries in this area. Civil engineers are making nearly twice what they were in the mid 1990's. People who don't want to educate themselves (I don't mean college just increasing their value to an employer through training etc.) are not likely to get ahead. Also, Bush's tax cut was better than no tax cut at all. If they had kept your money you would have seen absolutely no benefit. This way at least you're ahead by a few dollars. ;)
>>Has inflation been in check for the >>last five years? Yes it has. > > True, but energy costs are now killing us. The cost of everything is > going up with no end in sight because of the price of fuel. Inflation is still very low even with the high oil prices. Fact is we have been spoiled by low energy prices. The price of gas has bucked the inflation rate for decades. China is now the world's 800lb oil gorilla and we had better get used to it. I guess you and I will have to give up V-8's. ;)
>>Has interest rates been at historic >>lows the last five years? Yes they have. > > Another double-edged sword. Our investments aren't doing sh.t. My 401k > is sitting right on top of the toilet bowl. Since interest rates have been low the stock market has improved. The market, long term, has done well since Bush has been in office.
>>Have people greatly >>reduced their mortgage payments through refinancing during the last >>five years? Yes they have. > > And Americans are now more in debt then they've ever been in the history > of the country. Much of this is due to home values increasing. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.
>> Did Bush inherit a recession when he took office? Yes he did. >> Are we [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have the worst defecit this country's ever seen? Yes we do. Who's > going to pay for all this wreckless spending? Our kids and their kids. He did inherit a war and a recession. I don't like the spending he has done either. It is my biggest gripe about him. The overall deficit is the largest but the annual shortfall as a percentage of GDP is not.
>>Not everything is perfect but we are far from circling the economic >>drain. The debt we have now, as a percentage of GDP, is not the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > additional tax revenue. Here's a different take on the same story: > http://tinyurl.com/bmy7j He campaigned on it. It's just happening sooner than predicted. I read the article and they were trying to say much of the revenues are from stock market profits and when the stock market bubble bursts revenue will fall. We aren't anywhere near the bubble that developed in the 90's. In fact there really isn't a stock market bubble. Maybe there is a real estate bubble.
>>As for dismantling Social Security that isn't the plan Bush is >>promoting. > > By removing contributions to it, that's what it amounts to. But those contributions are in a personal account for the benefit of the tax payer. The plan is that person will receive fewer benefits when he retires. No one will ever miss a SS check. It just won't happen.
>>Every person has the choice to keep the status quo or >>put a portion of their withholding into a private account. > > Exactly. Those portions that are removed will obviously diminish the > fund. The personal accounts will grow. If we don't give the young people today a choice for private accounts it will be a shame. They deserve to have more than a meager SS check to retire on.
>>If your >>son would have that option, over his life span he would get a far, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Simply put, there's no guarantee with private plans. Look at the market over any given 50 year span. The gains are alway there. You can't think short term. Ask someone who bought stocks in the 1950's that still have them if they have made money. Just look at the wealth of people who bought Microsoft stock in the 1980's. ;)
>>Chile made private accounts available to their citizens >>years and years ago and in the beginning very few signed up for it. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > plan: > http://tinyurl.com/574zk I'm fundamentally against any tax increases on any level of government. We are taxed by Federal, State and local government to an extent most don't realize. The Feds have squandered all the money they should have been putting away for social security. The government can't be trusted with the money they currently collect so why give them more? I also have a problem with the rich being portrayed as evil, greedy, money grubbing trolls. Nearly all the rich people (assets of $1 million or more) I know earned every penny they have. All the ones I know made their money honestly. Some didn't but I bet they are few and far between. They hire many people and pay them well or generate work for other businesses. I ask people who complain about the rich if they every got a paycheck from someone on welfare. I'm working my a.s off to get rich. I really don't want to be taxed up the a.s if I manage to make it. :)
>>>I'd say there are at least a few damn good reasons why a lot of >>>people are upset with this guy. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > As did I in responding! But this is certainly better than watching > idiotic reruns on TV or reading some of the other drivel in here... ;) Hell, I could have used the time I spent on the last two posts working and been half way to being rich!
> Michael, thanks for an intelligent, well though out post. Same to you. I enjoy discussing things with someone that doesn't get bent out of shape because we have different points of view. I need to get some sleep now. :)
Joe - 15 Jul 2005 02:36 GMT <snip>
>> Michael, thanks for an intelligent, well though out post. > > Same to you. I enjoy discussing things with someone that doesn't > get bent out of shape because we have different points of view. I > need to get some sleep now. :) Yes, what the hell were you doing up in the middle of the night posting here?!? I thought you actually worked for a living!
Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep doing it. We both have some good points, and it's a decent debate. Let's hijack another thread another time and continue at that point if you don't mind. It's been a long day and I'm just here for pure entertainment tonight... :)
Michael Johnson, PE - 15 Jul 2005 02:56 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yes, what the hell were you doing up in the middle of the night > posting here?!? I thought you actually worked for a living! I work out of the basement of the house. When I get into a project I find my sleep schedule gets all screwed up. I work late then have to unwind before I can sleep and then sleep late in the morning. After a week or two of this I'm all screwed up. The good thing is it doesn't matter when I work just that I work 8-12 hours a day. :)
> Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep doing it. > We both have some good points, and it's a decent debate. Let's hijack > another thread another time and continue at that point if you don't > mind. It's been a long day and I'm just here for pure entertainment > tonight... :) I'm with you. I doubt anyone has read our last few posts anyway. Could it have been THAT boring?!?!
Joe - 15 Jul 2005 03:09 GMT >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > After a week or two of this I'm all screwed up. The good thing is > it doesn't matter when I work just that I work 8-12 hours a day. :) Yes, I knew you had a 10-second commute and a bizarre work schedule. So do you actually get dressed for work, or do you end up taking a shower at like 4pm for lunch?
I work home Mondays and Fridays. Gave my boss the sob story of my 3- hour commute per day down to Miami and back, not to mention 14mpg in the torquemonster. She asked me if I could deal with two days from home and I instantly said no problem.
>> Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep doing >> it. We both have some good points, and it's a decent debate. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm with you. I doubt anyone has read our last few posts anyway. > Could it have been THAT boring?!?! Well, I know Kate read a few of my comments from the other day... ;)
Hell, of course we're boring - we're both over 40.
Michael Johnson, PE - 15 Jul 2005 04:47 GMT >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > So do you actually get dressed for work, or do you end up taking a > shower at like 4pm for lunch? I usually try to get up by 8:30am (if I work late then I sleep later) and head downstairs and grab a jumbo cup of coffee. My wife leaves by 6:30am so the coffee is already in the pot. I grab a muffin and head to the couch where the laptop sets on the coffee table. I check email, the Washington Post, Drudge Report, maybe a few newsgroups and then head to the basement with a refill of the jumbo coffee. Then I return any phone calls, make sure I have no meetings scheduled and then start working. I take a few breaks during the day. Time flies down stairs though. I think it's the lack of windows. I watch a combination of Fox News, History Channel, Science Channel, National Geographic Channel and A&E while I work. I usually try and get a shower in before I have to take the dog out at 4:00pm to crap. :)
> I work home Mondays and Fridays. Gave my boss the sob story of my 3- > hour commute per day down to Miami and back, not to mention 14mpg in > the torquemonster. She asked me if I could deal with two days from > home and I instantly said no problem. Telecommuting is nice. My wife did it 1-2 days a week before she was promoted and lost the perk. It was strange having both of us working from the house on her "home" days. It saves money to work from home but getting an extra 3 hours a day would be the real benefit for me.
>>>Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep doing >>>it. We both have some good points, and it's a decent debate. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well, I know Kate read a few of my comments from the other day... ;)
> Hell, of course we're boring - we're both over 40. I believe you but I have to say that I don't FEEL that I'm boring.
Joe - 15 Jul 2005 23:35 GMT <snip>
> I usually try to get up by 8:30am (if I work late then I sleep > later) and head downstairs and grab a jumbo cup of coffee. My wife > leaves by 6:30am so the coffee is already in the pot. I grab a > muffin and head to the couch where the laptop sets on the coffee > table. I take it you don't have kids or pets roaming around. If I left a laptop on the coffee table, it'd have food, spilled gatorade, paw prints all over it, and it'd be upside down on the floor in about a dozen pieces.
> I check email, the Washington Post, Drudge Report, maybe a > few newsgroups and then head to the basement with a refill of the > jumbo coffee. I do iced coffee out of my thermos I keep in the fridge. Two's usually enough; any more and I'm too wired.
> Then I return any phone calls, make sure I have no > meetings scheduled and then start working. Unless I'm in the office, I don't do phone. E-mail has to suffice. We're also hooked into one of those chat things for the company.
> I take a few breaks > during the day. Time flies down stairs though. I think it's the > lack of windows. I watch a combination of Fox News, History > Channel, Science Channel, National Geographic Channel and A&E while > I work. I could never work with the TV or radio on. However, my desk is right next to the sliding glass doors in the living room. I have a panoramic view of our porch with the fish/turtle pond, and the back yard with the "canal" behind it. The canal rarely has water, but it's been pretty full for almost a month now because of the rain and storms.
> I usually try and get a shower in before I have to take the > dog out at 4:00pm to crap. :) Hell, I'm not afraid to wander outside even right out of bed. Even dogs scatter when they see me.
>> I work home Mondays and Fridays. Gave my boss the sob story of my >> 3- hour commute per day down to Miami and back, not to mention [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from home but getting an extra 3 hours a day would be the real > benefit for me. When I'm home, I usually start anywhere between 6:30 and 8:30 depending on when I get up. During the summer, my wife's home (teacher) so we get up later. But during school, we're usually up at 5:45am so I'm working by 6:30. Having my VPN into work, I can always hook up and do whatever I have to at any time. So I usually end up putting a few hours in here and there over the weekend regardless.
>>>>Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep doing >>>>it. We both have some good points, and it's a decent debate. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I believe you but I have to say that I don't FEEL that I'm boring. Right! We're the most interesting people on the planet... ;)
Michael Johnson, PE - 18 Jul 2005 23:29 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > prints all over it, and it'd be upside down on the floor in about a > dozen pieces. We have a few cats and a dog but they never bother anything. The dog can't even jump on the coffee table so most things are safe around here.
>>I check email, the Washington Post, Drudge Report, maybe a >>few newsgroups and then head to the basement with a refill of the >>jumbo coffee. > > I do iced coffee out of my thermos I keep in the fridge. Two's > usually enough; any more and I'm too wired. Isn't that the whole point? ;)
>>Then I return any phone calls, make sure I have no >>meetings scheduled and then start working. > > Unless I'm in the office, I don't do phone. E-mail has to suffice. > We're also hooked into one of those chat things for the company. I can't function without a phone. Sometimes I don;t answer it in order to get things done.
>>I take a few breaks >>during the day. Time flies down stairs though. I think it's the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > been pretty full for almost a month now because of the rain and > storms. I guess it goes back to my college days when I studied under all kinds of circumstances. If I could study while drinking beer and doing some light partying then a little TV is nothing.
>>I usually try and get a shower in before I have to take the >>dog out at 4:00pm to crap. :) > > Hell, I'm not afraid to wander outside even right out of bed. Even > dogs scatter when they see me. If I didn't impose that little bit of discipline then I may never shower. :)
>>>I work home Mondays and Fridays. Gave my boss the sob story of my >>>3- hour commute per day down to Miami and back, not to mention [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > hook up and do whatever I have to at any time. So I usually end up > putting a few hours in here and there over the weekend regardless. Try doing that for years on end. It really messes with your sense of time when you're dislocated from the day to day routines of punching a time clock. Whether I work all day or all night, it doesn't matter much. The time shifting just creeps up on you after awhile.
>>>>>Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep doing >>>>>it. We both have some good points, and it's a decent debate. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Right! We're the most interesting people on the planet... ;) Well that takes the pressure off of us. Neither one of us is too demanding when it comes to being entertained. For proof just look at this thread. ;)
Joe - 19 Jul 2005 02:09 GMT > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > dog can't even jump on the coffee table so most things are safe > around here. I wish! This place is a zoo gone wild.
> >>I check email, the Washington Post, Drudge Report, maybe a > >>few newsgroups and then head to the basement with a refill of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Isn't that the whole point? ;) Yeah, but when it looks like I have Parkinson's, then it's time to cut back a bit... ;)
> >>Then I return any phone calls, make sure I have no > >>meetings scheduled and then start working. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I can't function without a phone. Sometimes I don;t answer it in > order to get things done. I hate phones. If I never used one again it wouldn't be too soon. Hell, I even hate computers even though they're my bread and butter...
> >>I take a few breaks > >>during the day. Time flies down stairs though. I think it's the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > kinds of circumstances. If I could study while drinking beer and > doing some light partying then a little TV is nothing. When I first got into programming, the boss would take us out for lunch and we'd blow doobs on the way back to the office. We wrote the _best_ software on the planet in the afternoons... ;)
> >>I usually try and get a shower in before I have to take the > >>dog out at 4:00pm to crap. :) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If I didn't impose that little bit of discipline then I may never > shower. :) Yeah, I have to go in when I get too itchy and greasy even for me to stand. That usually happens by around 3pm or so.
> >>>I work home Mondays and Fridays. Gave my boss the sob story of > >>>my 3- hour commute per day down to Miami and back, not to mention [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > doesn't matter much. The time shifting just creeps up on you after > awhile. Ah, that's something I'm looking forward to. :)
> >>>>>Anyway, we can beat this to a pulp and lose a lot of sleep > >>>>>doing it. We both have some good points, and it's a decent [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > demanding when it comes to being entertained. For proof just look > at this thread. ;) I see what you mean. Talk about going off the deep end... But it's always a pleasure.
So what do you think about this CIA leak stuff? This morning I read that it now involves Cheney's aide or something.
Michael Johnson, PE - 19 Jul 2005 03:18 GMT ><snipped a whole bunch of boring BS - except to Joe and I> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So what do you think about this CIA leak stuff? This morning I read > that it now involves Cheney's aide or something. I haven't followed it too closely. It looks to me like a big game of gotcha by both sides. Also, I think the press is stretching it out because there's nothing better to report. I don't think Rove broke the law and I've read where her cover was blown way before he talked to anyone in the press. It apparently was common knowledge that shew worked for the CIA. Plus her husband campaigned for Kerry and thought he might get a Cabinet or high level government position if he won so, IMO, his motives are suspect.
Rove has driven a stake into the Democrat's heart in the 2000, 2002 and 2004 elections and they want nothing more than to see head head on a platter or at least drag him through the mud a little. I think the whole affair will not amount to much and as soon as Bush nominates a replacement for Sandra it will probably be forgotten.
Repubs and Dems are always looking for a way to sling mud at each other and I think this is just the latest installment. It seems that most all the talking heads think this won't amount to much and don't think Rove broke any laws. Then again I'm sure many thought the same after the Watergate break-in. :)
Joe - 20 Jul 2005 00:47 GMT >><snipped a whole bunch of boring BS - except to Joe and I> LOL!
>> I see what you mean. Talk about going off the deep end... But >> it's always a pleasure. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the whole affair will not amount to much and as soon as Bush > nominates a replacement for Sandra it will probably be forgotten. I heard he's supposed to be on TV tonight to make some kind of announcement.
From what I've heard and read about Rove, he's nothing short of brilliant. Apparently, he's been setting up Bush's presidency since he was governor back in Texas.
> Repubs and Dems are always looking for a way to sling mud at each > other and I think this is just the latest installment. It seems > that most all the talking heads think this won't amount to much and > don't think Rove broke any laws. Then again I'm sure many thought > the same after the Watergate break-in. :) That's pretty much what I'm thinking as well. More of the SOS...
Michael Johnson, PE - 20 Jul 2005 01:26 GMT >>><snipped a whole bunch of boring BS - except to Joe and I> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > brilliant. Apparently, he's been setting up Bush's presidency since > he was governor back in Texas. He actually met W. in the early 1970's. He was instrumental in Bush winning the Texas governorship. He has also done huge work in organizing the Repubs in ways that no one has done before. Much of the grass roots efforts has been orchestrated by him. The last election was a show of local political strength by both sides. I really think the Dems thought they had it won based on their local organization. The trouble is they totally underestimated the success of the Repubs at the same level. Organizations like Moveon.org were hiring people to get the vote out an were paying for voter registration. The Republicans used volunteers to do the same and they were motivated for the right reasons and not by money. Consequently they did a better job of turning out the vote. I think most people in the country thought that if the Dems got more than 55 million votes they would win. Who would have thought Bush would get way over 60 million, I certainly didn't think it was possible.
IMO, the Repubs real test will be the 2006 elections. If they make more gains in the House and Senate it will be a remarkable achievement. No administration has increased seats for their party in Congress for four straight elections. Actually, I don't think it has been done for three consecutive elections. If they do I think it is a clear sign to the Dems that they had better do some real deep soul searching and start jettisoning people like Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Barbara Boxer etc. Hillary Clinton is trying so hard to look conservative it makes me laugh. It is the only chance she has to win. If any liberal can pull off looking like Zell Miller it would be her. :)
>>Repubs and Dems are always looking for a way to sling mud at each >>other and I think this is just the latest installment. It seems [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's pretty much what I'm thinking as well. More of the SOS... I think the Dems are looking for any way possible to slow Bush down on his agenda. Same goes for stopping any conservative Supreme Court nominees. They are trying the same tactics that Newt used only they aren't nearly as good at it. Then again, I never underestimate the Repubs ability to shoot themselves in the foot. :)
RichA - 11 Jul 2005 17:57 GMT >>>>>Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>>>>Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Mars, and return, will take time... a long time IMO. I think it will >take another 25-30 years before it is remotely considered feasible. Can anyone point me to a document that shows ANY science of value being done on the ISS? It's a white elephant in space. For what it cost, they could have put up the successor to the Hubble, built 5 new shuttles, and launched countless PRODUCTIVE interplanetary probes and funded larger ground-based telescopes. -Rich
Michael Johnson, PE - 11 Jul 2005 18:31 GMT >>>>>>Most stupid thing I've ever read. You understand NASA operates out of >>>>>>Hunstville, right? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > shuttles, and launched countless PRODUCTIVE interplanetary probes and > funded larger ground-based telescopes. I don't necessarily see the science being done on the station as the benefit. It is being able to hone the technology that allows humans to live long-term in space and a weightless environment. Also, I bet much of the "science" done there is classified and may be only be useful to, or used by, the military.
As a follow up to my reply to Kate, I think we should target a large asteroid and see how we can affect its long term trajectory through various means. Developing that capability might prove useful one day!
SVTKate - 11 Jul 2005 19:05 GMT : As a follow up to my reply to Kate, I think we should target a large : asteroid and see how we can affect its long term trajectory through : various means. Developing that capability might prove useful one day! Well, I suppose it might prove useful someday, kind of like the set of taillights I took off of my car MAY be useful someday, not likely, but possible. In the meantime... I still think...
Ok, here's the rub. Only as an example, but a real problem.
Recently in this state they have cut the Tenncare rolls significantly. Loads of people who are really sick (yes and I am sure some that are taking advantage) have had their medical benefits eliminated.
I see it this way, $300million would do allot to help people. People who really need it right ehre and now. People who cannot help themselves.
Kind of the same way I see big fancy churches with the wide screens and Dolby sound. The money spent could be used to do some real good....
I know it's a soap box, I just have this terribly practical side.
Kate
Michael Johnson, PE - 11 Jul 2005 19:18 GMT > : As a follow up to my reply to Kate, I think we should target a large > : asteroid and see how we can affect its long term trajectory through [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I know it's a soap box, I just have this terribly practical side. The waste bother me too. I also think that while the possibility is remote we should have a plan for dealing with a rogue comet/asteroid. It would take that much money. Besides if we are ever hit it would make the suffer you just described look like mankind had a common cold, relatively speaking. The real shame is that we, and other nations, have to spend so much on defense and military related areas. If we would all just play nice with each other think of the greater good we could accomplish.
Joe - 11 Jul 2005 23:14 GMT >> : As a follow up to my reply to Kate, I think we should target a >> : large asteroid and see how we can affect its long term trajectory [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > military related areas. If we would all just play nice with each > other think of the greater good we could accomplish. You want waste? One word: Iraq. Both lives and money are being thrown away.
SVTKate - 11 Jul 2005 23:25 GMT : You want waste? One word: Iraq. Both lives and money are being : thrown away. We heard you the first time.
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