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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2005turbonator
has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what were the results? http://www.turbonator.com/index.html?id=adWordsMustang I have a 02 GT and was wondering if this add on might be worth while. thanks.. Keith > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so > what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thanks.. Keith If your wallet is too full it will help make it more comfortable to sit. Other than that it's a waste of time. Al I couldn't have put it any better than that..... P.T. Barnum once said "theres a sucker born every minute...". If these things were so good, every manufacturer would be installing them on the assembly line. > > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so > > what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Al > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what > were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thanks.. Keith Sned them an email and ask how the "swirling effect" created at the throttlebody manages to continue swirling all the way through the tubes of the upper intake around curves, past the valves and into the combustion chamber. They won't reply.  Signature"Network management is like trying to herd cats." -- Unknown "I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges?" -- TazAmd - Humor Section Gettingtogather.com >> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >> what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of the upper intake around curves, past the valves and into the > combustion chamber. They won't reply. When I see the TV commercials for these devices I just have to laugh. They promote the "tornado" effect as a good thing. In reality the "tornado" effect (aka vortex) is actually a sign of inefficient flow. When I design dam outlet control structures I have to specify where to put anti-vortex devices into the structure to improve its efficiency when conveying water. The theories behind these devices are bogus and I'm surprised the government hasn't hit them with a lawsuit for false advertising. >>> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if >>> so what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I'm surprised the government hasn't hit them with a lawsuit for false > advertising. Actually I did see where the FTC sued one of them some time back. Made them change their claims. Signature"Network management is like trying to herd cats." -- Unknown "I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges?" -- TazAmd - Humor Section Gettingtogather.com >> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >> what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the upper intake around curves, past the valves and into the combustion > chamber. They won't reply. Golly, wouldn't friction and going around curves (induced secondary flows) tend to dissipate the initial swirl? f.cking morons! SignatureJohn ThunderSnake #59 >>>has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >>>what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Golly, wouldn't friction and going around curves (induced secondary flows) > tend to dissipate the initial swirl? f.cking morons! That's why they never reply. I guess they figure if you're smart enough to ask that question, you're smart enough to figure out whatever answer they send will be full of sheep dip... Signature"Network management is like trying to herd cats." -- Unknown "I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges?" -- TazAmd - Humor Section Gettingtogather.com >>> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >>> what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Golly, wouldn't friction and going around curves (induced secondary flows) >tend to dissipate the initial swirl? f.cking morons! Wouldn't that depend on whether you are above, on, or below the equator? Thing might work for the Aussies.... Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >>>> what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Wouldn't that depend on whether you are above, on, or below the > equator? Thing might work for the Aussies.... No, the forces that create secondary flows in pipe and tubing are stronger than the coriolis effect. SignatureJohn ThunderSnake #59 BUMMER! I got some friends in Aussie land who were hoping it might just work for them. >>>>> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >>>>> what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >No, the forces that create secondary flows in pipe and tubing are stronger >than the coriolis effect. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>>>> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if >>>>>> so [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > BUMMER! I got some friends in Aussie land who were hoping it might > just work for them. Ain't gonna happen. So go, and may the force be with you, the turbonator force that is! :-) SignatureJohn ThunderSnake #59 > Sned them an email and ask how the "swirling effect" created at the > throttlebody manages to continue swirling all the way through the tubes of > the upper intake around curves, past the valves and into the combustion > chamber. They won't reply. Couldn't you say the same thing about the 4-hole carb spacers with the "swirl" built in? SignatureScott W. '66 HCS Mustang 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/ > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what > were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thanks.. Keith Pure snake oil. From their web site: 35 HP boosts are not typical. Your results with the Turbonator will probably, but not necessarily, be less. SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 31 days 13:04 >> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so >> what [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 35 HP boosts are not typical. Your results with the Turbonator will > probably, but not necessarily, be less. thanks to all for answering my question keith > Pure snake oil. > From their web site: > 35 HP boosts are not typical. Your results with the Turbonator will > probably, but not necessarily, be less. I liked this part: "If you don't feel comfortable installing it, have your mechanic do it for you. If he doesn't install it for free, find a new mechanic." - http://www.commondreams.org/ http://www.truthout.org/ http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/ http://thirdworldtraveler.com/ http://counterpunch.org/ http://responsiblewealth.org/ http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/pol/80315675.html "They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq. http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr. "God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them. And then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." -- George W. Bush "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -- Adolf Hitler "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918) Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron... My mechanic refused to install it... not install it for free.... and not install a piece of junk.... but because he was laughing so hard, as were the rest of the mechanics in the bay, that he was afraid he'd put it in backwards..... LOL : 0 ) >> Pure snake oil. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close > friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron... Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > My mechanic refused to install it... not install it for free.... and > not install a piece of junk.... but because he was laughing so hard, > as were the rest of the mechanics in the bay, that he was afraid he'd > put it in backwards..... LOL : 0 ) Ooo.. If you put it in backwards. If the air were spinning counter rotational to the engine. OMG! It might actually IMPLODE!!! Signature"Network management is like trying to herd cats." -- Unknown "I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges?" -- TazAmd - Humor Section Gettingtogather.com Put them "Fire Injectors" on, Installed a Turbonator, Put a couple of cow magnets next to the fuel line. Poured in that there Slick 50. Only problem now is my car is getting such good gas mileage, I have to stop every 50 miles and drain some gas outta the tank! ;>) > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so > what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thanks.. Keith I was really surprised to see it advertised in either Jegs or Summit.... JC Whitney I would have expected.... >has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what >were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >thanks.. Keith Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so > what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thanks.. Keith Snake oil based on very specific requisites. True, swirl DOES promote better gas/air mixture - AND SOMETIMES cylinder fill Ford called it "HSC" for high swirl chamber in the 2.3 OHV's but that was at the opposite end. and you will note that they only show the demo at wide Open Throttle Because the long distance between the insert and the injectors/valves will negate any useful effect... esp at cruising where your throttle butterfly is almost closed anyway But if you believe in it enough and click your heels three times after you install it you will swear you get both better milage and more power. I think a better use for one of these would be to put it in the toilet and increase the swirl effect. Maybe increase the "Gas mileage"? ;>) > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so > what were the results? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thanks.. Keith > has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what > were the results? > http://www.turbonator.com/index.html?id=adWordsMustang > > I have a 02 GT and was wondering if this add on might be worth while. It would be about as worthwhile as Bush's illegal and immoral terror attack on Iraq, and the manufacture's claims of better performance and efficiency are about as honest as Bush's claims of freedom and democracy. HTH! - http://www.commondreams.org/ http://www.truthout.org/ http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/ http://thirdworldtraveler.com/ http://counterpunch.org/ http://responsiblewealth.org/ http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/pol/80315675.html In September and October 2003, McClellan said he had spoken directly with Rove about the matter and that "he was not involved" in leaking Plame's identity to the news media. McClellan said at the time: "The president knows that Karl Rove wasn't involved," "It was a ridiculous suggestion" and "It's not true." Yet another in the endless stirng of bu$h's lies. "They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq. http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm "God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them. And then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." -- George W. Bush "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -- Adolf Hitler "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918) Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron... Or Clinton's "I never had sex with that woman...." >> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what >> were the results? [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close > friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron... Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >Or Clinton's "I never had sex with that woman...." When Clinton Lied, 100,000 people didn't die. >>> has anyone tried installing the turbonator on there mustang and if so what >>> were the results? [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address >>Or Clinton's "I never had sex with that woman...." > > When Clinton Lied, 100,000 people didn't die. C'mon now, you don't think Monica got around *that* much, do you??? > <kook spew removed> Signature"Network management is like trying to herd cats." -- Unknown "I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges?" -- TazAmd - Humor Section Gettingtogather.com >>Or Clinton's "I never had sex with that woman...." > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>as honest as Bush's claims of freedom and democracy. >> HTH! The cop in me always screams whenever I hear unsubstantiated claims made; whether by attorneys, or witnesses; to a judge or jury. Claims such as this are submitted by you and others before the public who act as judge and or jury... desiring to influence the verdict; in this case history's verdict. Soooo..... Ah, but the proof is in the "EVIDENCE". Clinton admitted he lied, as you acknowledged. That's evidence of both immoral and illegal wrong-doing. As yet, where is the "PROOF" that Bush did anything immoral or illegal? It's so easy to say things which you can't prove, and which do not need to be proven in order to damage someone's reputation. . Bring me PROOF which can be used to prosecute or impeach and I'll gladly stand with you, but let's not turn into a lynch mob society where we convict without evidence. Let's stick to the "PROVABLE FACTS" and not spread personal views held up as fact. Before making unsubstantiated claims, ask of yourself, if YOU did something you believed was right, morally and legally, and there was no "evidence" of wrong doing on your part, would you want people going around making claims that 100,000 people died because you did something immoral and illegal? Would you enjoy having your family and friends hearing such allegations against you? Your children being taunted in school? IF you just happen to be correct, then every soldier, sailor, and airman involved is also responsible for committing immoral and illegal acts resulting in the deaths of 100,000. So, too, is every Senator and Congressman who supported the President's actions, no matter what they use to justify that support, nor what they tell the voters today. It follows that every citizen who voted those Senators, Congressmen, and the President into office is responsible because.... NO MAN IS AN ISLAND "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." John Donne Meditation XVII This famous meditation of Donne's puts forth two essential ideas which are representative of the Renaissance era in which it was written: The idea that people are not isolated from one another, but that mankind is interconnected; and The vivid awareness of mortality that seems a natural outgrowth of a time when death was the constant companion of life. Donne brings these two themes together to affirm that any one man's death diminishes all of mankind, since all mankind is connected; yet that death itself is not so much to be feared as it at first seems. http://isu.indstate.edu/ilnprof/ENG451/ISLAND/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On a lighter note.... "Ask not for whom the bell tolls; and you pay only the direct dial rate." The Power of Positive Pessimism Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>Or Clinton's "I never had sex with that woman...." >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >where we convict without evidence. Let's stick to the "PROVABLE FACTS" >and not spread personal views held up as fact. The proof has been all around you for several years. You obviously choose not to see it. >Before making unsubstantiated claims, ask of yourself, if YOU did >something you believed was right, morally and legally, and there was [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address >The proof has been all around you for several years. You obviously >choose not to see it. Sorry, I must have missed when Bush was tried and convicted for war crimes or impeached based upon the "PROOF" you say exists. ! There is a difference between proof and belief, between evidence and allegation. Again, when you provide proof; good solid factual evidence; I'll stand with you. But, so far there has been zero. Just a lost of allegations and accusations without the substance to back it up. If it was there, I have no doubt his opposition would have run screaming to appoint federal prosecutors. Bet you'd be talking differently if some prosecutor had you over a barrel based upon you kind of proof. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>The proof has been all around you for several years. You obviously >>choose not to see it. >> > Sorry, I must have missed when Bush was tried and convicted for war > crimes or impeached based upon the "PROOF" you say exists. ! What about OJ? Seriously. You believe everything your president says, until he is impeached? Wow. I've got some real estate to sell you! There is no need to try and figure out what specific lies are being told to this country. Just understand you are being lied to on a regular basis. Question authority. I have yet to say I believe or do not believe.... because I do not know what the truth is. So, I'm not going to hang someone until the court case comes to a close, with both the prosecution and defense having given it their best shot, and it's time to judge base upon the weight of the evidence. That IS how the law is supposed to work. Not, the way you indicate; find 'em guilty and hang 'em first and worry about whether or not they did it later. As for OJ.... "better that a guilty man go free than one innocent man be convicted" has been the basis for US law since the beginning of the nation because the colonists looked back at European countries they came from for guidance. They decided they did not want a system where the state could, and would, convict people and even execute them without just cause; simply because a neighbor made an accusation. By the way, OJ was not found "not guilty" as so many believe. The jury found that the prosecution had not proven it's case in chief according to the law of the State of California as contained in the California Penal Code. As an example, for burglary to be proven, the prosecution must prove that a) an individual b) entered a residence, which is defined as 1) a building 2) having a minimum of four walls 3) and a door, c) that people actually resided there full time (it is not vacant), d) and the individual entered the residence for the purpose of 1) taking the property of another, or 2) some other felony, (such as rape, murder, etc) e) without the permission of the resident. NOTE: This is not a direct quote from the CPC, so the actual wording may be different, but the concept is absolute under California law. If any one of the points or sub-points listed in a law is not proven, then the law can not be proven to have been broken. For example: A garage has four walls and a door, but people do not live there, so the crime of burglary could not be proven. This is a simple burglary. You can imagine all the points which must be proven in the case of a murder/homicide... even if there are witnesses. And it only takes one error with the chain of custody of the evidence to have a case thrown out. In OJ's case, there were no witnesses, and the prosecution blew parts of the case. Now, suppose you were in OJ's place, and you DID NOT kill anyone. Based upon what was presented in the case, you would want the jury to find you guilty? People who have never had to actually work with the law have a hard time understanding why it is not as simple as they believe it should be. They do not understand why the case can't be solved and the guilty convicted just like it happens on television. The simple answer is that the law is not that simple, and for good reason. We do not want to send innocent people to the gas chamber when they are not guilty. And we have seen enough cases to show even that doesn't always work. That is why I don't judge Bush without having the facts; provable facts; and not just on what people say about him. I take it would be perfectly fine with you if I and others started spreading unsubstantiated information about you... like you are a child molesting pedophile who is an active member of NAMBLA.... even worse, you don't drive a Mustang! you drive a ricer! (((my OT point))) .... and you would want everyone to believed it without question? Then, the first time something happens to a child in your neck of the woods, you'd want to be tried and convicted without any evidence being presented other than people repeating what they had heard or read. Getting back to OJ; in any case I personally investigated, while I might suspect someone is guilty, I could not charge them and lock them up. I had to pursue the case as if they were not...eliminating every other possibility, until I had enough physical evidence to charge them, or there was no other possibility that someone else did the crime. Then they could be charged and locked away UNTIL some really good defense lawyer found a chink in my case. Look how long Scott Peterson walked around before he was charged. If all criminals were to think the law should work as you do it would be so easy to lock people away on the flimsiest of rumor... no real evidence required. It sure would have made my job easier. >>>The proof has been all around you for several years. You obviously >>>choose not to see it. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >country. Just understand you are being lied to on a regular basis. Question >authority. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address C'mon, Spike. OJ should've been sent away for life. He walked because he was rich and famous. Just like Michael Jackson. > I have yet to say I believe or do not believe.... because I do not > know what the truth is. So, I'm not going to hang someone until the [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address Everyone from the prosecution to the defense, cops, etc, acknowledged that the prosecution made major blunders which cost them the case. The cops acknowledge errors in the chain of custody of evidence. Have I said he didn't do it? No. Personally, I think it's a darn good chance he did, but the official result is the verdict handed down by the jury. Is there a different set of laws for the rich and famous? No. The laws are the same no matter who faces them. The difference is in the people who conduct the process, begriming with the District Attorney, and working down to the jury. A lot of my fellow cops worked the LA scene. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that none that I knew would be swayed by someone's wealth or position; in fact, most would be happy to bust someone rich and famous. So, I don't think a case gets blown during the investigation. Of course, there always has been one major difference. The wealthy can afford the expensive lawyers to get them off, the poor can't. And juries often fall into the trap of "awe of fame or position". As for MJ, I don't know. Maybe he is just plain weird. But, the charges the prosecution elected to push were inane. They need a new DA. Perhaps, because I have been directly involved in the law and have seen that it, more often than not, actually works the way it should, I am far less cynical. Note that I did not say it works right every time. I had cases go bad when they looked air tight. It happens. Often it was out of my hands what took place in the offices upstairs, or what verdict a jury reaches. I, and my people, did our part of the legal system. We investigated and reported. We aren't the judge and jury. >C'mon, Spike. OJ should've been sent away for life. He walked >because he was rich and famous. Just like Michael Jackson. [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] >> I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." >> -JFK Inaugural Address Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > Everyone from the prosecution to the defense, cops, etc, acknowledged > that the prosecution made major blunders which cost them the case. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > to bust someone rich and famous. So, I don't think a case gets blown > during the investigation. I don't think it's the DA or cops that get swayed so much as the jury and the media. But the rich and famous by and large get "preferential" treatment over us peons. > Of course, there always has been one major difference. The wealthy > can afford the expensive lawyers to get them off, the poor can't. And > juries often fall into the trap of "awe of fame or position". There ya go. You've just pointed out the Big Inequity found within our system of justice. > As for MJ, I don't know. Maybe he is just plain weird. But, the > charges the prosecution elected to push were inane. They need a new > DA. Any man who has children in his bed needs help and/or to be put away. > Perhaps, because I have been directly involved in the law and have > seen that it, more often than not, actually works the way it should, I [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address >> swayed by someone's wealth or position; in fact, most would be happy >> to bust someone rich and famous. So, I don't think a case gets blown [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and the media. But the rich and famous by and large get >"preferential" treatment over us peons. Part of that, I believe, is because such people rarely get a jury of their peers. In other words... the rich and famous. If it were the rich and famous sitting on the jury, they would be less awed by someone like OJ. >> Of course, there always has been one major difference. The wealthy >> can afford the expensive lawyers to get them off, the poor can't. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >There ya go. You've just pointed out the Big Inequity found within >our system of justice. Ah, but, that has existed in about every civilization in history. The difference is that even the rich and famous in our system do get punished sometimes. OJ and MJ are standout exceptions because of the nature of the crimes. >> As for MJ, I don't know. Maybe he is just plain weird. But, the >> charges the prosecution elected to push were inane. They need a new >> DA. > >Any man who has children in his bed needs help and/or to be put away. I can think of tons of fathers, and mothers, you just convicted for being normal. Your statement was to broad and generalized not to catch normal parents in the web. >> Perhaps, because I have been directly involved in the law and have >> seen that it, more often than not, actually works the way it should, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:34:33 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospam.com> >wrote: Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>> swayed by someone's wealth or position; in fact, most would be happy >>> to bust someone rich and famous. So, I don't think a case gets blown [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rich and famous sitting on the jury, they would be less awed by > someone like OJ. Maybe less awed, but no less stupid. Consider guys like Tom Cruise... ;) >>> Of course, there always has been one major difference. The wealthy >>> can afford the expensive lawyers to get them off, the poor can't. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > punished sometimes. OJ and MJ are standout exceptions because of the > nature of the crimes. IMO, those crimes are heinous. All the more reason to prosecute them vigorously. >>> As for MJ, I don't know. Maybe he is just plain weird. But, the >>> charges the prosecution elected to push were inane. They need a new [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > being normal. Your statement was to broad and generalized not to catch > normal parents in the web. Now don't get all technical on me - you know what I meant. Let's rephrase: Any grown man who has pre-teens or older (up until the age of consent) sleeping with him in his bed needs help and/or to be put away. And that includes parents. I just saw one of those 'Nanny 911' episodes where the mother had to sleep with all her kids every night, and the oldest was about 6 or 7. That's just sick. >>> Perhaps, because I have been directly involved in the law and have >>> seen that it, more often than not, actually works the way it should, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address >Now don't get all technical on me - you know what I meant. Let's >rephrase: Any grown man who has pre-teens or older (up until the age >of consent) sleeping with him in his bed needs help and/or to be put >away. And that includes parents. Now that I can agree with : ) I knew what you meant. The point was not to get techie on you, but to point out how thin the line can be between a good and enforceable law, and a lame one. >I just saw one of those 'Nanny 911' episodes where the mother had to >sleep with all her kids every night, and the oldest was about 6 or 7. >That's just sick. I am not familiar with the show of which you speak. Some of the "homes" I have been in, with kids sleeping anywhere they can find a space, dog feces all over the floor, no food in the refer, were pretty bad. On the other hand, you can walk into an extremely clean and neat apartment (when the neighbors live in rat holes) and all the kids are sleeping in the bed, and the mom or dad is too and that's the only piece of furniture in the place except the color TV sitting on the floor. Even been to places where the slept in shifts in the same bed. Now, you can say that any many who has kids sleeping in the same bed is sick, but I can tell you such is not always the case. When you get down into the lowest economic levels it's a whole different world. It does not mean anything bad is going on. Waco Jacko is a whole different critter. He can afford furnishings for everyone. But, again, you have to be very careful how you word something. A blanket statement like yours about Jacko written into law, would result in a lot of kids being forced into foster care, family broken apart, parents and children victimized for being the best parents they can be. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>Now don't get all technical on me - you know what I meant. Let's >>rephrase: Any grown man who has pre-teens or older (up until the age [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>sleep with all her kids every night, and the oldest was about 6 or 7. >>That's just sick. I love that show. That aside, a 6 or 7 year old sleeping with parents isn't "sick". Children sleep with their parents for security, comfort, and confidence. There are many pros for the "family bed", and many cons as well. It depends on who you ask. There's nothing "sick" about giving your child comfort and security. It's not like mom and dad are having sex in the same bed (trust me, I know. If we wanted to do anything we had to wait until she was asleep and sneak into the spare bedroom). As long as mom's not sleeping in the nude or behaving inappropriately in front of the kids, how is it sick? How is it sick to show your children you love them and want them to feel safe and secure? She has her own reasons I'm sure. My baby wouldn't sleep in her own bed even as an infant. Nothing we tried could get her to sleep in her own bed so she slept with us from the day she came home from the hospital. I know why we let our daughter sleep with us, but I also know that she's young enough that it's not going to do any lasting damage to her. It might be a little harder to get her out of it since she's been there for 3 years but that's about it. She's about to be weened from the parent bed to her own because I do firmly believe that if you let a child sleep with you for too long, they'll never develop independance and learn to comfort themselves which can have nasty consequences on her as a teen and adult. If it's taking this lady's kids longer to develope, well, she'll just have to deal with that as it comes but nothing about it is "sick". K. >>>Now don't get all technical on me - you know what I meant. Let's >>>rephrase: Any grown man who has pre-teens or older (up until the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I love that show. Obviously, they pick the most dysfunctional families for ratings. After all, it's Fox... > That aside, a 6 or 7 year old sleeping with parents isn't "sick". Sorry, but I beg to differ. The family I saw on the program all slept together in the same bed every night, including the dog. The oldest kid was about 7 or so; there were two other younger ones. That's sick IMO. > Children sleep with their parents for security, comfort, and > confidence. Up to a certain age, true. Beyond that, it's sick IMO. > There are many pros for the "family bed", and many cons > as well. It depends on who you ask. There's nothing "sick" about > giving your child comfort and security. Absolutely. But when the child gets to be older, it's not comfort and security anymore. It's a crutch. A 7-year old child should be sleeping in his or her own bed. > It's not like mom and dad > are having sex in the same bed (trust me, I know. If we wanted to do > anything we had to wait until she was asleep and sneak into the > spare bedroom). As long as mom's not sleeping in the nude or > behaving inappropriately in front of the kids, how is it sick? You're kidding, right? > How > is it sick to show your children you love them and want them to feel > safe and secure? That's just fine. But that doesn't equal parents sleeping with their 7-year old. > She has her own reasons I'm sure. On the show, the mother basically admitted that she had serious "letting go" problems. She couldn't bear to be without her kids 24/7. The kids were fine with sleeping alone; the mother couldn't deal with it. > My baby wouldn't > sleep in her own bed even as an infant. Nothing we tried could get [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > themselves which can have nasty consequences on her as a teen and > adult. Exactly. You've answered your own question from above. > If it's taking this lady's kids longer to develope, well, > she'll just have to deal with that as it comes but nothing about it > is "sick". > > K. So what's your opinion of Michael Jackson? >>My baby wouldn't >>sleep in her own bed even as an infant. Nothing we tried could get [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Exactly. You've answered your own question from above. I still don't think it's SICK. Maybe our definitions of the word are different. It's perhaps a danger to the child's ability to cope as he/she gets older. However, with your enlightenment of WHY she has all the kids sleep with her... I think she needs a bit of education and maybe a trip or two down to Dr. Phil. She's damaging her kids by not letting them go. It's going to screw them up and kill her relationship with them. Now, if it was the KIDS wanting to sleep in bed with mom and dad (such as in my case), then I don't see anything wrong with it up until that certain age. By 7, the parents should be able to foster the confidence and self-comfort in a kid of that age. If not, they need to hit some parenting classes. I'm not perfect but young kids aren't rocket science. > So what's your opinion of Michael Jackson? He's sleeping with kids that ARE NOT his. I don't care if Johnny Depp calls and invites my kid over for a sleepover to sleep in his bed, he's obviously got some strange issues. I love kids, mine or not, but I'm not bringing them into my bed. IF MJ wasn't proven to be such a f.cking flake, I wouldn't think anything of him having his own kids in his bed. That's if he was a normal human being, but he's not. He's some sort of alien plant here to judge what kind of weird behavior he can get away with apparently. If you told me you had a 5 year old that wouldn't sleep in his own bed and slept with you, I would think nothing of it. If anyone here told me their children slept in bed with them up to the age of maybe 4 or 5, I wouldn't think anything of it. MJ is not a "regular" parent. He's shown for years with his public behavior, what he's done to his face, and how he treats his kids what a flippin nutcase he is. When someone is as off-the-wall as that, he shouldn't be allowed to breed or be around kids period. I'd say the same of anyone else who acted like that. AND, on my last little thought here... His whole spew about it being such a "loving" act... Umm... sleeping next to a 3 year old so she feels secure and safe and loved is a "loving" act. Not sleeping next to a 13 year old that has his own damn parents to love him. K. >>>My baby wouldn't And yet, in other cultures, kids sleep with their parents or others right up until they pass the test for manhood/womanhood with no apparent ill affects. Indeed, those kids become more an integral part of the whole, with far less interpersonal conflict (within their own groups), and, at an earlier age have become more independent that children in western cultures. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>>My baby wouldn't > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > children in western cultures. > Spike In other cultures. Where every single day is completely seperate from our culture. Where wearing a 3 ft cone on your prick is daily life. Stretching your neck until your muscles can no longer hold your head up on your own is part of growing up. (And I'm not necessarily saying those are bad, just different than our neck of the woods) My point is, different cultures have different effects on children and how they grow up. The stories they tell, the values they instill and the way they rear their kids is not the same as me or John or Mary down the street raise our kids. Hell, I don't even raise my daughter the way Mary or John raise their kids but our kids are exposed to different things than other cultures are. Each is different, and each have their own ways of dealing with things. What a child needs here, a child on the other side of the world may not need and vice versa. One thing is universal though and that's love. My kid gets more than her share of it. K. > One thing is universal though and that's love. My kid gets more than her > share of it. > > K. So... how bout that Turbonator, huh?? Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >> One thing is universal though and that's love. My kid gets more than >> her share of it. >> >> K. > > So... how bout that Turbonator, huh?? Crap. Gen-u-ine 100% pure snake oil. :) Signature/ Garth - '83 GL V6stang Hatch <Former MW #7> \ | My V6stang: http://www.v6stang.com/v6stang | | RAMFM Merchandise: http://www.cafeshops.com/ramfm | \ Mail pgp@v6stang.com for secure reply information / >>> One thing is universal though and that's love. My kid gets more than >>> her share of it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >:) It's not snake oil. I know. Snake oil is on aisle 3 in the lubricant selection. : ) I think you'll find the Turbonator on the back wall next to the trash bin...on the same rack with the fans that increase your speed by acting like aircraft propellors. By the way... DON'T put one of THOSE on backwards!!!! : 0 ) Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>> One thing is universal though and that's love. My kid gets more than >>> her share of it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > :) Just how does one relieve a snake of his oil?? Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG One kind ya just let 'em bite cha the way Cleopatra did. Another is to travel the back roads and blot it up off the pavement. The other ya really don't wanna know, do ya? : ) >>>> One thing is universal though and that's love. My kid gets more than >>>> her share of it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Just how does one relieve a snake of his oil?? Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > The other ya > really don't wanna know, do ya? : ) Only if you have video. Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG Nope... I just heard about it from a guy who was in stir... >> The other ya >> really don't wanna know, do ya? : ) > > Only if you have video. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>My baby wouldn't >>>sleep in her own bed even as an infant. Nothing we tried could get [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > different. It's perhaps a danger to the child's ability to cope as > he/she gets older. OK, in my book that's called 'sick' because it's basically screwing up your child's head (and possibly other things). Parents are supposed to do everything possible to contribute to the child's well being, not the opposite. > However, with your enlightenment of WHY she has all the kids sleep > with her... I think she needs a bit of education and maybe a trip or > two down to Dr. Phil. She's damaging her kids by not letting them > go. It's going to screw them up and kill her relationship with them. Absolutely. And that's a great example of a sick-o mother that's hurting her kids and not helping them. The father was just as much at fault for not doing anything about it. > Now, if it was the KIDS wanting to sleep in bed with mom and dad > (such as in my case), then I don't see anything wrong with it up > until that certain age. Why start it to begin with? Sure, I'm the first one in line to shower my kid with love and affection, but he can get that (and he certainly did get that and continues to get it) without sleeping in our bed. > By 7, the parents should be able to foster > the confidence and self-comfort in a kid of that age. If not, they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > IF MJ wasn't proven to be such a f.cking flake, I wouldn't think > anything of him having his own kids in his bed. I guess on that point we'll agree to disagree. Don't get me wrong - it's fine to all pile in once in a while, but I don't believe in allowing kids to sleep with their parent(s) every night. > That's if he was a > normal human being, but he's not. He's some sort of alien plant here [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that, he shouldn't be allowed to breed or be around kids period. > I'd say the same of anyone else who acted like that. Now that's a nice topic for another thread. I basically agree with you, but you know that within a nanosecond someone will pop up and ask who gets to determine the "line" where someone shouldn't breed. > AND, on my last little thought here... His whole spew about it being > such a "loving" act... Umm... sleeping next to a 3 year old so she > feels secure and safe and loved is a "loving" act. Not sleeping next > to a 13 year old that has his own damn parents to love him. > > K. There ya go. > Absolutely. And that's a great example of a sick-o mother that's > hurting her kids and not helping them. The father was just as much at > fault for not doing anything about it. That's true too. Of course he could have been pussy-whipped as hell and she just didn't listen to him. I missed that episode so I dunno. > Why start it to begin with? Sure, I'm the first one in line to shower > my kid with love and affection, but he can get that (and he certainly > did get that and continues to get it) without sleeping in our bed. We started it because no matter how hard we tried, Kai wouldn't sleep in her bed. We tried everything you can imagine and as soon as you put her down she would wake up screaming. My mother told me to let her cry herself back to sleep. I tried, and it ended up just making me cry too. Kai just had to be attached to me. If we put her in our bed for naps even if we weren't in it, she could still smell me and that was good for about half an hour. Then she was crying again. If I held her, she would sleep for hours. After the first few weeks of NO sleep for me trying to get her into her own bed, we just let her sleep with us. We kept trying throughout this time but it never worked. Eventually (at about 11 months) I got her to take naps in her bed, but when it was time to go down for the night, forget it. And as an update, since I last posted about this I have been putting her to bed in her own bed. I have to stay with her until she falls asleep but it's a start. Some time in the middle of the night she wakes up and crawls in bed with me, but you have to start somewhere. > I guess on that point we'll agree to disagree. Don't get me wrong - > it's fine to all pile in once in a while, but I don't believe in > allowing kids to sleep with their parent(s) every night. Lots of people have differing opinions on the family bed, just as everything else. Like breastfeeding a child until they're 5. Ugh. > Now that's a nice topic for another thread. I basically agree with > you, but you know that within a nanosecond someone will pop up and ask > who gets to determine the "line" where someone shouldn't breed. I was waiting for that to come up, actually. :) K. >> Absolutely. And that's a great example of a sick-o mother that's >> hurting her kids and not helping them. The father was just as much >> at fault for not doing anything about it. > > That's true too. Of course he could have been pussy-whipped as hell > and she just didn't listen to him. I missed that episode so I dunno. I thought he was pretty much brain-dead, which explains his apathy to the situation. Interestingly, the nanny sort of woke him up to the realization that he and his wife were screwing up their kids, so they agreed that it might be time to "do something". Freaking' idiots, they were. >> Why start it to begin with? Sure, I'm the first one in line to >> shower my kid with love and affection, but he can get that (and he [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Eventually (at about 11 months) I got her to take naps in her bed, > but when it was time to go down for the night, forget it. I kind of agree with your mom. Luckily, ours didn't go through the tantrums that yours apparently did, so we never had to get to that point. Now that he's 16, we can't get him out of bed on the weekends until noon. > And as an update, since I last posted about this I have been putting > her to bed in her own bed. I have to stay with her until she falls > asleep but it's a start. Some time in the middle of the night she > wakes up and crawls in bed with me, but you have to start somewhere. Indeed. Good that she's learning.. >> I guess on that point we'll agree to disagree. Don't get me wrong >> - it's fine to all pile in once in a while, but I don't believe in >> allowing kids to sleep with their parent(s) every night. >> > Lots of people have differing opinions on the family bed, just as > everything else. Like breastfeeding a child until they're 5. Ugh. Now _that's_ really sick. >> Now that's a nice topic for another thread. I basically agree with >> you, but you know that within a nanosecond someone will pop up and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > K. Personally, I think the world would be a better place if those people that are beyond that line (wherever it is) weren't around. But then my wife says that's the German in me showing up... > I kind of agree with your mom. Luckily, ours didn't go through the > tantrums that yours apparently did, so we never had to get to that > point. Now that he's 16, we can't get him out of bed on the weekends > until noon. I once let her cry for 20 minutes. I had to go outside while her dad stayed with her because I couldn't handle it. Infants have no sense of time. A minute is like eternity to them. They also have no sense of what's real and what's not. When someone is out of their sight, they don't understand that person will come back. Once you're gone, you cease to exist. I couldn't handle letting her cry like that. It just made both of us miserable. Aside from that, she was the perfect baby. She didn't fuss, and somewhere around 2-3 weeks old she slept straight through the night (as long as she was with us) so I missed out on the not-getting-any-sleep-until-they're-2 thing. She decided on her first birthday that she didn't like bottles or formula anymore so I packed them up and she went right on to sippy cups. I didn't have to battle her or ween her from the bottle. She did it on her own. Same thing with pacifiers and her blankie. She just decided she didn't need them anymore. She always ate her vegetables and was walking by the end of 9 months. Now, she's a backseat driver. "The light's green! Watch out, cars are coming! They hit you and you crash! Be careful! Slow down! Mommy, wear you seatbelt!" Christ, it's like having my mother in the car. >>Lots of people have differing opinions on the family bed, just as >>everything else. Like breastfeeding a child until they're 5. Ugh. > > Now _that's_ really sick. I completely agree with you there. That's a different story all by itself. I saw a show about women who breastfed their kids until 5, 7, and 9. 9! Talk about not wanting to let go! > Personally, I think the world would be a better place if those people > that are beyond that line (wherever it is) weren't around. But then > my wife says that's the German in me showing up... Umm.. all of my family is German (everyone got blonde hair and blue eyes except me, with dark brown/green, go figure) and my Finnish fiance' (who happens to be blonde/gray) tells me the same thing. "Boy, that German's really starting to come out in you!" I firmly believe that sometimes the natural selection process needs a little help. Lord help this county's population when I get through with the police academy! LOL! K. >> I kind of agree with your mom. Luckily, ours didn't go through the >> tantrums that yours apparently did, so we never had to get to that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Mommy, wear you seatbelt!" > Christ, it's like having my mother in the car. LOL! So where's she getting all that - from TV? >>>Lots of people have differing opinions on the family bed, just as >>>everything else. Like breastfeeding a child until they're 5. Ugh. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > itself. I saw a show about women who breastfed their kids until 5, > 7, and 9. 9! Talk about not wanting to let go! Those mothers are the ones that shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Can you imagine the mental state of those kids? Sad. >> Personally, I think the world would be a better place if those >> people that are beyond that line (wherever it is) weren't around. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > K. I'm half German and half Italian. Got some wonderful cooking growing up. Best of luck with the police academy - we need more people with your attitude IMO. As for "drawing the line" to decide who should breed, I think you and I should draw it. ;) > LOL! So where's she getting all that - from TV? I have no idea. I keep telling her dad to be careful of what he lets her watch because she absorbs more than we think. He kept watching Bruce Lee movies constantly when she was about a year and a half. I kept telling him it wasn't smart, but would he listen? Noooo. That's okay. He got his. Enter The Dragon... she walked right up to her dad, said "Heeeeeeeeya!" and punched him right in the eye. Wish I could have done that. lol > Those mothers are the ones that shouldn't be allowed to have kids. > Can you imagine the mental state of those kids? Sad. She'll pay for it when they end up in her basement as 40 year old virgins, arguing with people in cyberspace about who was better, Klingons or Storm Troopers. (My money's on Klingons, but don't tell anyone I said that) > I'm half German and half Italian. Got some wonderful cooking growing > up. Best of luck with the police academy - we need more people with > your attitude IMO. Thanks. My dad (a Lieutenant going on his 24th year in blue) keeps telling me "Just remember not to call anyone stupid. Oh Lord girl, that mouth is going to get you in so much trouble! Good thing you've got excellent aim." > As for "drawing the line" to decide who should breed, I think you and > I should draw it. ;) I second that. And I think we should open the Natural Selection Department, where we get to make the Existance Denial List. First to go... MJ! K. >> LOL! So where's she getting all that - from TV? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dad, said "Heeeeeeeeya!" and punched him right in the eye. Wish I > could have done that. lol LOL! Yup, kids are like sponges. They take it all in. >> Those mothers are the ones that shouldn't be allowed to have kids. >> Can you imagine the mental state of those kids? Sad. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Klingons or Storm Troopers. (My money's on Klingons, but don't tell > anyone I said that) I'll bet that at least one becomes a serial killer.. >> I'm half German and half Italian. Got some wonderful cooking >> growing up. Best of luck with the police academy - we need more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that mouth is going to get you in so much trouble! Good thing you've > got excellent aim." Very good point. I guess sometimes you only get a single chance, so it has to be good. >> As for "drawing the line" to decide who should breed, I think you >> and I should draw it. ;) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > K. Agreed. I'd want to throw OJ in there sooner than later, too. >>On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:28:30 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospam.com> > [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > of consent) sleeping with him in his bed needs help and/or to be put > away. And that includes parents. Okay. I didn't get this far in the thread when I just posted a little bit ago. All is forgiven. :D My baby turned 3 today and she still sleeps with me at home and she sleeps with her dad at his house. She has her own bed in both places and refuses to sleep in them. I have absolutely no worries whatsoever about her sleeping in bed with him HOWEVER I agree that there is an age limit where parents should be looked at a little closer if they exhibit "odd" behavior. A 14 year old still sleeping in her dad's bed is one of those things that makes you go "Hmm..." It could be completely innocent, and maybe it's not. I'd like to think they're all innocent when it comes to their own children but by now we're all smart enough to admit that some people are simply atrocious. My daughter is at the age now where she's starting to have a pretty darn good memory. She's no longer allowed in the room when dad's changing or going pee or taking a shower. As an infant we thought nothing of it but now is a different story. Seeing her dad in the buff isn't a memory I want her cringing from when she's 16. (I once saw my dad's butt and it was a traumatizing experience to a 7 year old) I still let her in the shower and bathroom and for changing with me, but that too is about to end... Today she told me I had a big butt. I felt justified in telling her I didn't have that big butt until she came along. :) K. > <snip> > Okay. I didn't get this far in the thread when I just posted a little [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sleeps with her dad at his house. She has her own bed in both places and > refuses to sleep in them. This is off the topic here but may be worth mentioning. I recently watched an HBO documentary entitled "Ask Dr. Baden". He is a pathologist that shows up on many cable news channels and has done other HBO specials about criminal pathology. The episode I saw involved a mother that had three young children die mysteriously in bed while sleeping with her. It turned out that she had rolled over on them during the night and never realized it. When she woke in the morning they were suffocated. It really made me think. He said it happens a lot every year. The risk of SIDS for children sleeping with their parents is 20 times greater than the average. You might want to look into this further since your child is so young. She may be old enough that it isn't a concern. Just thought I would mention it. Please don't take offense. > This is off the topic here but may be worth mentioning. I recently > watched an HBO documentary entitled "Ask Dr. Baden". He is a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that it isn't a concern. Just thought I would mention it. Please don't > take offense. No offense taken. It does indeed happen which is the biggest con of the family bed. When Kai was a newborn, I was absolutely terrified that would happen. I mean BEYOND terrified, actually. As it turned out, because of my fear, I slept very *very* lightly, and anytime I had the urge to roll over or move, I would wake up. Then I could roll over safely. I also always kept her curled up against my stomach or chest because I can't sleep on my stomach, so I never rolled that way. Kai's at an age and size now where that's not a concern. She's almost as tall as a 5 year old. Rolling over onto a little person would certainly wake anyone up right away but it doesn't happen. She doesn't like to be cuddle when she's sleeping anymore so she sleeps on one side of the king sized bed against the wall, and I sleep on the edge of the free side. If I even get close to her she moves away. That too is sad. At least for me, because she's getting older and she's so independant it drives me nuts. She's not a baby anymore. :( They grow up too fast. K. >>>On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:28:30 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospam.com> >> [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > Okay. I didn't get this far in the thread when I just posted a > little bit ago. All is forgiven. :D Why thanks. But I don't know what I'm being forgiven for... ;) > My baby turned 3 today and she still sleeps with me at home and she > sleeps with her dad at his house. She has her own bed in both places > and refuses to sleep in them. I forsee a trend, perhaps? Our son slept in his own crib from the beginning. Of course, the crib started out in our room, but we never had to ween him out of our bed. And he was/is never starved for love. > I have absolutely no worries > whatsoever about her sleeping in bed with him HOWEVER I agree that > there is an age limit where parents should be looked at a little > closer if they exhibit "odd" behavior. A 14 year old still sleeping > in her dad's bed is one of those things that makes you go "Hmm..." > It could be completely innocent, and maybe it's not. Sorry, Kidd, but IMO that's _definitely_ not innocent. See my rephrased statement above. > I'd like to > think they're all innocent when it comes to their own children but [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 7 year old) I still let her in the shower and bathroom and for > changing with me, but that too is about to end... From your comments, I think you see the same things that I do. I'll never forget (to my dismay) the time I walked in on my mother getting dressed and she was pretty much naked. I was around 9 or so. Scary thought even to this day. > Today she told me I had a big butt. I felt justified in telling > her I > didn't have that big butt until she came along. :) > > K. LOL! Touche. >>As for MJ, I don't know. Maybe he is just plain weird. But, the >>charges the prosecution elected to push were inane. They need a new >>DA. He's a total fruit. Come on. Just look at what he did to his face! How can you do that to yourself and not be whacked out of your mind? Or act the way he does period? He's a freakin flake. > Any man who has children in his bed needs help and/or to be put away. Not any man. In MJ's case, I think he intended the children harm whether "harm" is how he views it or not. But not "any man". I don't think fathers count when it's their child and they have only the intention of protecting the child and creating a safe environment for them to sleep comfortably in. I'm sure you didn't mean them, but I had to say it anyway. :) K. >>>As for MJ, I don't know. Maybe he is just plain weird. But, the >>>charges the prosecution elected to push were inane. They need a new [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >can you do that to yourself and not be whacked out of your mind? Or act >the way he does period? He's a freakin flake. Wait a minute here!!!! He didn't do anything to his face. Just ask him! That nose, and chin, etc, naturally evolved from how he looked as a child..... >> Any man who has children in his bed needs help and/or to be put away. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >comfortably in. >I'm sure you didn't mean them, but I had to say it anyway. :) Unfortunately, through the last couple of decades, we have been taught to fear even the semblance of wrongness. Cases like the McMartins, and the one in Oregon, where it was the trusted people who were accused of wrong-doing. All a child, or neighbor has to do is point a finger and the victim is guilty already because children don't lie about such things. That's how crazy things have gotten. As for traumatizing, that is an American thing because this country has always been puritanical. Go to Europe, Asia, among the tribes of Africa, and other places, and things are viewed quite differently. When someone is raised openly, there is less to be shocked by. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but it seems to be a good thing for the most part. >K. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > Unfortunately, through the last couple of decades, we have been taught > to fear even the semblance of wrongness. Cases like the McMartins, and > the one in Oregon, where it was the trusted people who were accused of > wrong-doing. All a child, or neighbor has to do is point a finger and > the victim is guilty already because children don't lie about such > things. That's how crazy things have gotten. One of our Sargeants was arrested for allegedly raping his 14 year old adopted daughter. He was convicted with no evidence. Just her testimony. I say allegedly, even though he was convicted, for a few reasons. First, I've known the man since I was 16 years old. He's a good friend of my parents and I have a hard time believing he could do something so heinous. Yeah yeah, I know people say that all the time. Second, this girl is known to be a liar, a troublemaker, and she has mental issues. It seemed funny to me how she didn't decide to "come out" with her story until he caught her sneeking her 24 year old boyfriend into the house at night and forbid her to see him anymore. The d |
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