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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2005Pity Chrysler (was, The Dukes of Hazzard)
They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do massive box office. But, they give the producers of "The Island" an typical, politically-correct Hollywood movie a huge number of their cars and it's horribly bombing. Is this some kind of divine message to toadying international corporations that maybe they should attempt to control everything that people can do or think? -Rich > They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" > movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > corporations that maybe they should attempt to control everything that > people can do or think? Why should they let someone take their products and slap a symbol on it that offends a rather large slice of the public? I'm white, live in Virginia, politically conservative (many liberals think that makes me racist) and even I can see why many people are offended by the Confederate flag - just like Jewish people are offended by the Swastika. It is a symbol that is strongly connected to the legitimization of slavery. I fail to see how it can be spun into anything else. Many say it is a symbol of southern pride but I just don't get it. Maybe someone here can explain it for me. IMO, DC is smart to not allow their products to be used in a way that is offense to many people. It's good business and, IMO, the right thing to do. >> They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" >> movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >IMO, DC is smart to not allow their products to be used in a way that is >offense to many people. It's good business and, IMO, the right thing to do. While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people also just need to get over themselves. There isn't a person alive today that had anything to do with or was impacted buy the institution of slavery or the civil war. This is quite unlike the remaining survivors of the holocaust who are still alive and do remember the horror that was the Nazis. Personally I think it was a bonehead move on Chryslers part as the segment of the population that they were worried about offending probably wouldn't even go see that movie to begin with. Although they have probably generated more press & conversation about their decision then if they hadn't made it. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >>>They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" >>>movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > survivors of the holocaust who are still alive and do remember the > horror that was the Nazis. I think many in the South need to get over a few things too. They lost the Civil War. I just don't understand the drive of some to display the Confederate flag. What exactly does it mean to them? I do think they should have the right to display it. > Personally I think it was a bonehead move on Chryslers part as the > segment of the population that they were worried about offending > probably wouldn't even go see that movie to begin with. Although they > have probably generated more press & conversation about their decision > then if they hadn't made it. From a purely business standpoint I think it makes good sense. Blacks make up 11%-12% of the population alone. Many whites and other minorities may also be included. The number of people that may be offended up way more than 25% of the entire population. That is a huge number. I don't think many care at all that they chose to stay away from the picture. Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well anyway. It is another poor remake of a marginal TV show. But this is just my opinion. :) >Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well > anyway. It is another poor remake of a marginal TV show. > > But this is just my opinion. :) Marginal? You're being VERY kind. 8-) If you put 2 thirteen year old boys together and asked them to write scripts each week, that approximates the quality of the original series. It's right up there (down there?) with Three's Company.... Cheers, > >Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well > > anyway. It is another poor remake of a marginal TV show. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > approximates the quality of the original series. It's right up there > (down there?) with Three's Company.... Mebbeso, but a lot of people watched and enjoyed it every week(myself included) regardless of the poor script quality. I didn't like 3's company. H >>>Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well >>>anyway. It is another poor remake of a marginal TV show. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Mebbeso, but a lot of people watched and enjoyed it every week(myself > included) regardless of the poor script quality. I didn't like 3's company. IMO, there were three basic viewers of that show. The first were girls wanting to watch two hot guys. The second were guys wanting to watch a long legged girl in hot pants. The third were kids wanting to see cars jumped and trashed on a weekly basis. Maybe there were a handful of sick SOBs with the hots for Uncle Jesse. The viewers surely didn't tune in for the riveting plot lines. >> Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well anyway. It is >> another poor remake of a marginal TV show. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > boys together and asked them to write scripts each week, that > approximates the quality of the original series. How dare you so callously insult the intellect of thirteen year old boys. ;) >>Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well anyway. It is another >>poor remake of a marginal TV show. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Cheers, Yet it lasted for 5 years.... >>>Plus, I don't see this picture doing all that well anyway. It is another >>>poor remake of a marginal TV show. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Yet it lasted for 5 years.... "Reality TV" is wildly popular too. It's still crap. If I didn't have kids, the TV would only go on for DVDs and the news. But they did use them, so where did this rumor come from??? --------------------------------- One of the original series car from the '80s was also used in this new movie as a close-up car. It's a converted '68 Charger to look like a '69. The original engine was replaced by a brand new Hemi-engine. The car was used for a few close-up scenes and was send back to Warner Bros. 26 Dodge Chargers were used for the making of this film. Several 1968 and 1970 Dodge Chargers were converted to look like 1969 Chargers. Only one hemi Charger was used, the rest were 440s, 383s, and a few small block 318. Two Dodge Charger's were purchased for a total of $2, given that after the making of the film they would be sold back to the original owner for $1.25 a piece. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377818/trivia >>>>They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" >>>>movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>>corporations that maybe they should attempt to control everything that >>>>people can do or think? They used Chrysler cars but not with the "blessing" of DC or their sponsorship. It appears the cars they used were privately owned. > But they did use them, so where did this rumor come from??? > --------------------------------- [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>>>>corporations that maybe they should attempt to control everything that >>>>>people can do or think? > They used Chrysler cars but not with the "blessing" of DC or their > sponsorship. It appears the cars they used were privately owned. Of course they were. Where else would they get 26 suitable cars for the project? >>They used Chrysler cars but not with the "blessing" of DC or their >>sponsorship. It appears the cars they used were privately owned. > > Of course they were. Where else would they get 26 suitable cars for the > project? I'm sure Chrysler has a few tucked away for those special occasions. >>>>They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" >>>>movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Confederate flag. What exactly does it mean to them? I do think they > should have the right to display it. Slavery has been over in this country since 1865, so I think that blacks need to get over it. Focus on slavery going on in the world today. Word! >>>>>They refuse to allow their cars to be used in the "Dukes of Hazzard" >>>>>movie because of the Confederate flag and that movie will probably do [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Focus on slavery going on in the world today. What about people flying a Confederate flag? Should they get over it too? IMO, BOTH sides need to move on. Blacks in Africa had other blacks as slaves and they are the ones that delivered the slaves to the whites. Both side's hands are dirty when it comes to Europeans, and by extension Americans, use of Africans as slaves. Hell, native Americans were slaughtered and enslaved in South America by the millions upon millions. The fact is that at some point nearly every race has been persecuted, enslaved, tortured or slaughtered. Likewise, every race has persecuted, enslaved, tortured or slaughtered another race or in some cases even their own. > While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people > also just need to get over themselves. And some other people need to take off the white sheets and cease the cross burning..... TNS >> While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people >> also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >TNS Does this still happen often? -Rich >>>While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people >>>also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Does this still happen often? More often than it should...  Signature/ Garth - '83 GL V6stang Hatch <Former MW #7> \ | My V6stang: http://www.v6stang.com/v6stang | | RAMFM Merchandise: http://www.cafeshops.com/ramfm | \ Mail pgp@v6stang.com for secure reply information / >>>>While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people >>>>also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >More often than it should... Really? Any media sources for it? I'd have thought this kind of thing would show up on nationwide media if it actually happened today. > >>>>While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people > >>>>also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > kind of thing would show up on nationwide media if it actually > happened today. They had multiple cross burnings in Durham, NC earlier this year. http://rdu.news14.com/content/headlines/?ArID=69773&SecID=2 http://www.pamspaulding.com/weblog/2005/05/durham-vigils-and-speculation-about.html http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion/columnists/guests/68-618807.html Ed RichA <none@none.com> wrote in news:6mqfe111buv18l521kc58djqlqjt742fs7@ 4ax.com: > Really? Any media sources for it? I'd have thought this > kind of thing would show up on nationwide media if it actually > happened today. Ask Spike. There have been a number of racially motivated hate crimes in his area the past five years. Locally, over Memorial Day weekend, a group of three skinheads attacked a racially mixed family at a campground. The father of the attacked family fired three warning shots in the air, then opened fire on the skinheads when they did not stop. One was shot dead, the other 2 wounded. The man was released after questioning. A week later, the other 2 survivors were arrested after repeatedly cruising past the man's house screaming racial epithets and promising that "we ain't done yet, nigger." Of course, none of this hits the national news. It is vigorously quashed by the Bush administration, who wants to paint a picture of an America that doesn't exist. To find out about it, you have to view local sources. > RichA <none@none.com> wrote in > news:6mqfe111buv18l521kc58djqlqjt742fs7@ 4ax.com: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ask Spike. There have been a number of racially motivated hate crimes > in his area the past five years. <snip> > Of course, none of this hits the national news. It is vigorously > quashed by the Bush administration, who wants to paint a picture of an > America that doesn't exist. To find out about it, you have to view > local sources. Actually i would disagree. Its quashed by the media becuase it isn't sensational enough. This is our media come on. We thrive on sensationalism. If they would have actually KILLED the family and the black guy, then it would have made the news. >>>While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people >>>also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Does this still happen often? IMO, racially motivated crimes are equal opportunity. It is practiced by whites on blacks, blacks on whites, hispanic on black etc. It really isn't as lopsided as it was 30+ years ago. >>>>While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people >>>>also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >by whites on blacks, blacks on whites, hispanic on black etc. It really >isn't as lopsided as it was 30+ years ago. You Pc-Incorrect Heritic you! -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >>>>>While from a basic tenant point of view I agree with you, some people >>>>>also just need to get over themselves. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You Pc-Incorrect Heritic you! The only thing "PC" about me is what I'm using to post this response. :) Well, as I recall, it was REALLY lopsided 30+ years ago. > Well, as I recall, it was REALLY lopsided 30+ years ago. Thirty plus years ago I was a pimply faced teenager growing up in a very small Midwestern town so I don't recall much of anything. We had less than 10 black students in our entire school system and they were treated just like everyone else. A person's race was never given much thought among us. >> Well, as I recall, it was REALLY lopsided 30+ years ago. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > were treated just like everyone else. A person's race was never > given much thought among us. During my junior and senior years in high school ('69-'71) we went through race riots on campus and in town. Talk about getting an education in life real quick.. >>>Well, as I recall, it was REALLY lopsided 30+ years ago. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > through race riots on campus and in town. Talk about getting an > education in life real quick.. I guess this was one of the benefits of growing up in small town America. When I graduated there was fewer than 400 people in the entire high school (grades 9-12) and I went to the largest high school in the county! One school had just over 100 students and that was for grades 1 through 12. My school was the only one that could field a football team. I consider myself lucky that I grew up in a small community. The kids that live around me here in the Washington, DC area are much more jaded than my nieces and nephews growing up in my home town. Back home they get to be care free kids much longer. >>>>Well, as I recall, it was REALLY lopsided 30+ years ago. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >more jaded than my nieces and nephews growing up in my home town. Back >home they get to be care free kids much longer. My graduating class was 444 and I was # 222. Nice to be average :) If one was to look at my year book you would at first glance see all "white" smiling faces, but a second glance at last name would show a certain level of diversity. Italians, Jews & Germans some the result of inter-religion/racial marriages like Ana Maria Schwartz or Moshe Donitelli. One doesn't really need to have "blacks" to have diversity. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) I've been lurking for quite a while, and I think I have even posted before. I'd like to help you understand this part. I've been a civil war buff since the mid '80s, and the biggest problem with the flag is that the post 60s era has misconstrued the facts to suit them. In the movie "Gods and Generals" there is a scene that hit me when I saw it, and that is when a character reads in a northern news paper that the emancipation proclemation had been signed by the President. The character's rationalization of that action was that the southerner's spirit would be broken by having the institution broken down in such a way. The point that seems to be missed by EVERYONE since the generation after the war was over is that the war was fought to protect..........The State's rights to determine it's own laws and regulations. This fight still goes on today, in that most of us are now beholden to the EPA to allow our highway taxes to be returned to be used to benefit our own state roadways, but only if the state agrees to be held to the emission standards arbitrarily handed to them from the big central government. Here in SW Pennsylvania, the air quality as measured by the EPA test sites on the western border of the state is 'not in attainment' with the standards for our region, so we get to have more stringent emission tests. Since the air coming into the sites doesn't pass, exactly what can be done here to make it better? Shouldn't the EPA be forcing these tests on the areas that produce the air we can't meet attainment with? The new emission test junk science farce is that diesel engines are now terrible polluters, but for the past 20 years weren't? For example it is now a "crime" complete with fines, to idle a school bus for more than 5 minutes, but the transit busses the local government agencies support are exempt? They routinely sit for up to 45 minutes during driver switches while at idle to keep the A/C or heat working. But that doesn't cause any pollution. While we're at it, lets return to High School Chemistry class. What makes a molecule of ozone? 3 atoms of oxygen. Remember that any other atoms added into this substance makes a different chemical, not ozone. can this compound have a variable molecular weight? by definition, NO. Why do we have too much ground level ozone and not enough atmospheric ozone? Because the ground level ozone is heavier than air, the same air that is lighter than the other ozone.........according to the strong central government. That is the same government that now advocates the taking of private property by government, and using it for different private enterprises. Not public use anymore, PRIVATE use....as in government agencies forcing you off your land so that I can build on it and bring more revenue to the local officials than they would have made from you. The founders of our country set up the Federal Government with specific duties. The main reason for the central government was to protect the borders of our nation from invasions. Since the 1860's, there has been a shift to the present day, where we can't protect our borders (those that do are called anything except patriots) and the Central powers tell the states what they will do next. In short, the Civil War was fought over the right of an individual State to decide it's own laws, and one of the laws in question pertained to slavery. To declare otherwise is simply a twist of the facts. Similar in effect to the way that Malcom X's change in beliefs near the end of his life never seems to be acurately reported, but there are a lot of "X" shirts worn near where I live. Also, the Stars 'n Bars was never the flag of the CSA. It was a battle flag, used as such. As a pair of shirts I saw state......... "If this flag offends you, you need a history lesson." and "You wear your X and I'll wear mine". SignatureERIC GIRONDA RichA wrote: Why should they let someone take their products and slap a symbol on it that offends a rather large slice of the public? I'm white, live in Virginia, politically conservative (many liberals think that makes me racist) and even I can see why many people are offended by the Confederate flag - just like Jewish people are offended by the Swastika. The Swastika was an official part of the NAZI uniform, country and race. Something else you won't hear in schools is that the NAZI party was Socialist.... not 'right wing', not 'conservative', etc. The Socialist party, like the Communist party have quite a bit in common with the American Democratic party, but not so much the other American Political group...... It is a symbol that is strongly connected to the legitimization of slavery. I fail to see how it can be spun into anything else. Many say it is a symbol of southern pride but I just don't get it. Maybe someone here can explain it for me > I've been lurking for quite a while, and I think I have even posted > before. I'd like to help you understand this part. I've been a civil [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the war was over is that the war was fought to protect..........The > State's rights to determine it's own laws and regulations. It really was a war regarding economics of owning slaves in the South. That being said it doesn't make the South right in its cause. Are you saying a State should have the right to determine that other races can be enslaved? I can't buy that as being justified as a state's right. Under this logic any state could pass a law to legalize slavery and the Federal Government and the rest of the States would let it stand. Something as grievous as slavery is not justified for any reason whether it is the mid 1800's or 2005. > <snipped a bunch of stuff I agree with> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > his life never seems to be acurately reported, but there are a lot of > "X" shirts worn near where I live. A State's rights does not supersede parts of the Constitution or what is just plain right. IMO, slavery is not justifiable for any reason. Would you support a State's right to exterminate all Jews residing in its borders? If you don't then you admit that a State has limits to its autonomy. Making someone a slave is just one step removed from killing them, IMHO. > Also, the Stars 'n Bars was never the flag of the CSA. It was a battle > flag, used as such. As a pair of shirts I saw state......... > "If this flag offends you, you need a history lesson." and > "You wear your X and I'll wear mine". Everyone should have the right to display anything they want that doesn't incite violence against others. The Confederate flag is a tie to a time when the South was fighting to maintain the right of whites to own black slaves. You can sugar coat it as being a fight about State's rights but that doesn't change the fact that is was a war over the economic benefits of owning slaves. There is absolutely no justification for one human to own another. Period. I still haven't been given a decent explanation as to why someone would want to display a flag that was, and still is, associated with the perpetuation of slavery. I would be listed as anti-slavery. At the same time, I think it is crap to try to cover up history in pursuit of being politically correct. Slavery, for all it's ills, was legal at the time. It was an accepted part of life in many parts of the world. The majority of slaves were supplied by Africans and by Middle Eastern slave traders. The so called Confederate flag was not the flag of the Confederacy. It was a battle flag. No different that the Rising Sun flag of Japan was a battle flag, not the flag of the nation of Japan. As for displaying the battle flag, I believe it is an issue of free speech. If neo-Nazi can display the swastika, and the KKK can march with their Christian cross and Klan flags, and their right, and the rights of similar groups to display them may not be infringed, what makes the battle flag of the Confederacy any different? All this "stuff" about changing the logos of states, their flags, and renaming geographical locations, school teams, etc, is idiocy. It is an attempt to bury history so that it will be forgotten. It steals the heritage, good or bad, of the people. It falls in line with the push to remove any and all, reference to a Christian God from public places. Where does it stop? Shall we send in the curators to remove such references from all historical documents? Physically cut the words out of them? Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. How then may the people remember if every sign of such ills is stripped away from view, and buried? When school text is re-written to reflect the thought of today and represent it as the thought of the past? Then, too, we have the push to make atonement to various groups (blacks, Japanese, Eskimos, etc) for past transgressions. Bull. To go back in history and make amends for what was then legal is insane. It may not have been right morally, but it was quite legal, and it took place. Hiding any visible signs, or making financial restitutions does not change the fact that they took place. It's time this nation stood up, and while condemning such practices, tell the ACLU that enough is enough. For both good and bad, this nation has a past; a history and heritage which belongs to the people who built it with sweat and blood. It may not be always pretty, but it is dishonest to bury it as has been the line of thought in recent decades. >> I've been lurking for quite a while, and I think I have even posted >> before. I'd like to help you understand this part. I've been a civil [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >been given a decent explanation as to why someone would want to display >a flag that was, and still is, associated with the perpetuation of slavery. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > I would be listed as anti-slavery. At the same time, I think it is > crap to try to cover up history in pursuit of being politically [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > rights of similar groups to display them may not be infringed, what > makes the battle flag of the Confederacy any different? It isn't but lumping it in with those you mentioned isn't putting it in good company. I believe anyone should have the right to fly it, wear it etc. I just don't understand what drives people to want to do it. It is a symbol of a past struggle to allow the continuation of slavery. I fully understand how some people are offended by it. Especially, when it is flying on or near a government building or it is part of a state flag. It seems like some people can still justify the South's struggle to retain slavery but then say they are against owning slaves. These two positions are mutually exclusive. > All this "stuff" about changing the logos of states, their flags, and > renaming geographical locations, school teams, etc, is idiocy. It is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > such references from all historical documents? Physically cut the > words out of them? I'm not quite sure how flying a flag that a large number of citizens associate with advocating/justifying slavery equates to references to God in public places. I doubt God sports a Confederate flag in the back glass of his pickup truck. ;) > Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. How then > may the people remember if every sign of such ills is stripped away > from view, and buried? When school text is re-written to reflect the > thought of today and represent it as the thought of the past? I'm not advocating removing it from our history books at all. It is a part of our history and should be studied. I just don't understand the need of some people to brandish this flag. > Then, too, we have the push to make atonement to various groups > (blacks, Japanese, Eskimos, etc) for past transgressions. Bull. To go > back in history and make amends for what was then legal is insane. > It may not have been right morally, but it was quite legal, and it > took place. Hiding any visible signs, or making financial restitutions > does not change the fact that they took place. Reparations are not realistic and will never happen. > It's time this nation stood up, and while condemning such practices, > tell the ACLU that enough is enough. For both good and bad, this > nation has a past; a history and heritage which belongs to the people > who built it with sweat and blood. It may not be always pretty, but it > is dishonest to bury it as has been the line of thought in recent > decades. Anyone that bashes the ACLU will never see any opposition from me. ;) > It isn't but lumping it in with those you mentioned isn't putting it in > good company. I believe anyone should have the right to fly it, wear it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to retain slavery but then say they are against owning slaves. These > two positions are mutually exclusive. You don't understand it because you have bought the winner's argument that the war was all about slavery. After the fact, the Northern politicians adopted this view because otherwise they would look like a pack of greedy blood thirty pirates who's chief reason for the war was economic control of the South. The vast majority of Southern soldiers did not own slaves. The most prominent Southern Generals did not own slaves. Do you think R.E. Lee fought to protect slavery? I am sure that many of the fire brands that promoted secession wanted to protect slavery. This does not mean that the majority of Southerners agreed with them. Many Southerners believed that the Southern States had the right to secede from the Union and fought for that ideal. And in the beginning even Lincoln preached against the idea that the war was being fought to end slavery. Only when it appeared that the war might be lost did he grasp at emancipation as a way to forestall European intervention and increase support for the war in certain portions of the Northern population. Closer to our own time, the Domino Theory, or Anti-Terrorism have been presented as alternate reasons to go to war when the real reasons might not be so noble. Although slavery was not widespread in the North, it was not actually outlawed in many Northern States until after 1812. And even when it was outlawed, it was usual that it only applied to the children born to slaves and not the original slaves. If the South had actually won the Civil War, do you suppose slavery would have survived into the 1900's? I doubt it would have survived another 25 years after 1860. Ed >>It isn't but lumping it in with those you mentioned isn't putting it in >>good company. I believe anyone should have the right to fly it, wear it [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > actually won the Civil War, do you suppose slavery would have survived into > the 1900's? I doubt it would have survived another 25 years after 1860. I'm not oblivious to why the Civil War was fought. It was basically a war over the economics of slavery. State's rights was just part of the justification used by the South. At the time the war was fought I don't deny that freeing the slaves was a by-product of the conflict. The nice thing about history is that we can see the entire episode and look at everything in context. When the dust settled, IMO, the best thing that came out of the Civil War was the end of slavery and in today's world there isn't much else that matters. As I said in an earlier thread, whether the war was fought over State's rights, economic repression, the South wanted independence etc. did not justify the continuation of slavery. I really don't buy that the Confederate flag is flown today because someone is still pissed off because the rights of the Southern States were violated in the mid 1800s or the Southern economy was going to be left in shambles by ending slavery. If I had lived in Atlanta at the time I probably would have felt the same way. Fortunately, those of us alive today can have a better view of the events of that era. Anyone who says the Civil War was not fought over the economics of slavery knows better. It was the major reason. BTW, if you were black, living in the South in 1865, I doubt you would rather wait another 30-40 years for slavery to end peacefully. ;) Maybe at that time many in the South didn't know why they were fighting or had a myopic view but the people that promoted the war knew it was for economic reasons. Why do you think Europe tilted toward the South? They liked the cheap cotton and other goods that the use of slaves afforded them. Just because Lincoln promoted the emancipation of blacks later in the war doesn't make it wrong. Looking back, IMO, it justified the horrible cost of that war. BTW, I still don't know why someone wants to fly that flag today. Do you? I need a more specific answer than something generic like southern pride. >SNIP >t over the economics of slavery >knows better. It was the major reason. BTW, if you were black, living >in the South in 1865, I doubt you would rather wait another 30-40 years >for slavery to end peacefully. ;) Actually, following receiving their mandated freedom, the vast majority of prior slaves remained right where they were, and continued to work on the same plantations which had owned them. They had no idea where to go, no education, and the government gave them no real help in starting over. A point which the Northern Federal Government knew at wars end. They knew the majority would remain where they were, and continue to work in the same way, and did nothing to correct the problem. When the former slaves received the land and mule they had been promised, they found it came with strings attached (for those who actually received the land and mule). They became sharecroppers, indebted to the only store in town which would sell them seed, tools, etc. They were restricted with regard to selling their crops, to the same store, at deflated prices. Thus, for the majority, slavery ended officially, but continued in fact. >Maybe at that time many in the South didn't know why they were fighting >or had a myopic view but the people that promoted the war knew it was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >later in the war doesn't make it wrong. Looking back, IMO, it justified >the horrible cost of that war. Many southerners supported the war (just as many colonists had supported the revolution) for economic reasons, it's true. They also knew that the federal mandates would change their way of lives. The days of mint julips on the veranda while blacks sang in the cotton fields was going to be legislated out of existence. As for Europe, remember that many European countries were heavily involved in Africa, China, and so on where slavery was a common practice among the non-Europeans. That same slavery fueled European economies. >BTW, I still don't know why someone wants to fly that flag today. Do >you? I need a more specific answer than something generic like southern >pride. Not being a southerner, though I have lived there, I'd say there are a number of reasons. Southern pride is just one. As a sign of rebellion against big government. As free speech rights. As a sign of one's heritage. Just to identify a few. The majority of southern people I have known; the good ol' boys and belles; don't identify the stars and bars with slavery of blacks, but slavery of all by the power of the federal government which mandates how they must live their lives. That part of it goes back to the Civil War. And most of my southern classmates would say that 'if the Federal Government had done to your great grand daddy like they done to theirs, you'd be flying a banner of some sort your own self.... and one day (they) expect you will.' Heck, most of them; the everyday folk; have no use for the Klan type views. As usual, it only takes a small percentage to make a large group look bad. Part of the problem has always been that the winners write the history. Imagine how the history books would read if the Axis powers had won WWII. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>SNIP >>t over the economics of slavery [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > same store, at deflated prices. Thus, for the majority, slavery ended > officially, but continued in fact. IMO, this reinforces just how much the war was fought over the right to own slaves. If it wasn't then the Southern whites would not have felt the need to oppress the blacks after they were freed. They basically tried to "legalize" the old ways of slavery by controlling the blacks though other means. It didn't help that the North didn't do much to help the plight of the former slaves after the war was over. >>Maybe at that time many in the South didn't know why they were fighting >>or had a myopic view but the people that promoted the war knew it was [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > against big government. As free speech rights. As a sign of one's > heritage. Just to identify a few. There are plenty of ways to show support for Southern pride, disdain for government control over people, free speech and heritage that don't involve flying a flag that is offense to others. I personally don't like big government, love free speech, am proud of my heritage and the Confederate flag, IMO, stands for nothing in this regard. I show support for my beliefs in how I vote and what I say to others. I don't wave a flag that is deeply insulting to many people and reminds them of a time when their ancestors were treated no better than, and in many ways worse than, farm animals. I firmly believe that we all need to move forward regarding race relations. Just as many feel the blacks need to get over it and move on so do many whites, many of which fly the Confederate flag. > The majority of southern people I have known; the good ol' boys and > belles; don't identify the stars and bars with slavery of blacks, but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > views. As usual, it only takes a small percentage to make a large > group look bad. Then these people need to understand what that flag means to blacks and many others. I think that anyone that has concern over others feeling would opt to not display it. This is just my opinion. There are things that my Father believed that I know were wrong. I don't love him any less or feel ashamed of my heritage. I'm sure he felt the same way about his Father as do many of us whether we are white, black or green. I befriended a black coworker when I got out of college and we had many, many discussions about racism. We both agreed that our father's were way more racist that either of us but some of that stayed with us and we had both worked hard to eliminate it from ourselves. Neither of our fathers were bad men and they really didn't do anything to ever hurt another person just because they were a different color. They had ingrained the stereo types of whites and blacks from their fathers and family members. The funny thing is that me and my black coworker had many more similarities than differences. This ranged from political and social to moral views. It was a great friendship for me since I had just come to the Washington, DC area after living a sheltered life in small town Midwest. In addition to him I had Arabic, Persian, African, European, Oriental and many other nationalities as friends. They all proved to be great people and it reinforced to me that being a good person has absolutely nothing to do with your religion, nationality or skin color. The experience made me a much better person and I am truly greatfull for it. > Part of the problem has always been that the winners write the > history. Imagine how the history books would read if the Axis powers > had won WWII. I don't think the history books regarding the Civil War are warped much at all. It was a war about economics of the South with particular regard to owning slaves and preservation of the Union. That is what you will read in most all books that are studied in schools today. There is not much in the way of propaganda, IMO. >>>SNIP >>>t over the economics of slavery >IMO, this reinforces just how much the war was fought over the right to >own slaves. If it wasn't then the Southern whites would not have felt >the need to oppress the blacks after they were freed. They basically >tried to "legalize" the old ways of slavery by controlling the blacks >though other means. It didn't help that the North didn't do much to >help the plight of the former slaves after the war was over. All wars are, in some way, based upon economy, and a way of life. Human nature is to resist change. The sharecropping conditions could have been greatly lessened if the North had taken action. They didn't. Instead, they sought to make a profit, and sent the carpetbaggers south in droves. No, they weren't ordered south, but the North did nothing to halt the profiteering. In context, we must, of necessity, consider that the "norm" at the time of the Civil War, even though the eventual end of slavery may have been within view. was to view blacks as property; no different than a tractor today. Was it wrong? By our standards today, it sure was wrong. Yet, For us to judge today the actions and beliefs of people back then is really not proper, although we may freely disagree with those actions and beliefs. Think of people 1000 years from now looking back and condemning people today for eating meat, or for driving cars, or any other concept which is considered the "norm" by today's standards. We can say that slavery was bad, and we can judge slavery as bad, but how can we judge people for doing what was commonly accepted when and where they existed? >>>Maybe at that time many in the South didn't know why they were fighting >>>or had a myopic view but the people that promoted the war knew it was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>later in the war doesn't make it wrong. Looking back, IMO, it justified >>>the horrible cost of that war. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>>SNIP >>>>t over the economics of slavery [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > how can we judge people for doing what was commonly accepted when and > where they existed? I understand that the people alive DURING the Civil War were a product of the social environment of their times. The thing is that TODAY we know what most believed regarding slavery in the 1860's was wrong. This is why I don't understand the need for many to fly a flag that stood for something we know today is not right. The South wanted their freedom from the Union which included the freedom to own slaves. It is part of our history but, IMO, it is not a part that any of us should be proud of under today's standards of right and wrong. As for history judging us, that is the way of the world. I just hope we can, as a species, keep advancing our ideals and I hope people look back on us 1,000 years from now and think we were barbaric. To me, that will be a good thing. You failed to mention the one thing that we do today that, IMO, will be viewed as a horrific crime against humanity on the order of any mass extermination of humans ever committed and that is abortion. I'm not a religious fanatic about it. I see it purely as a human rights issue... that is the right of a conceived human being to be born. The shame is that most all abortions done today are for retroactive birth control. For me that is not nearly a good enough reason to terminate a life. I truly hope that a person looking back at us 1,000 years from now will feel the same way. >>>>>SNIP >>>>>t over the economics of slavery [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >our history but, IMO, it is not a part that any of us should be proud of >under today's standards of right and wrong. Guess it's simply a case of differing views. Those who do it see nothing wrong with what they do, and those who are against it do. >As for history judging us, that is the way of the world. I just hope we >can, as a species, keep advancing our ideals and I hope people look back >on us 1,000 years from now and think we were barbaric. To me, that will >be a good thing. Still, hopefully, when they look back, we'll get some credit for advances we did make. >You failed to mention the one thing that we do today >that, IMO, will be viewed as a horrific crime against humanity on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >reason to terminate a life. I truly hope that a person looking back at >us 1,000 years from now will feel the same way. Let's not go there. The slavery issue is like a spark in a gunpowder factory. The abortion issue is like Chernobyl. And I really hope that by then, such things won't be necessary no matter what the reason. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>>>>SNIP >>>>>>t over the economics of slavery [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Still, hopefully, when they look back, we'll get some credit for > advances we did make. I'm sure there will be a few good things for them to point at and say, "They weren't all bad". >>You failed to mention the one thing that we do today >>that, IMO, will be viewed as a horrific crime against humanity on the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Let's not go there. The slavery issue is like a spark in a gunpowder > factory. The abortion issue is like Chernobyl. Or more like a supernova. :) > And I really hope that by then, such things won't be necessary no > matter what the reason. IMO, the main reason it is done does not make it necessary. It is the ultimate indicator of just how selfish our society has become. >> Still, hopefully, when they look back, we'll get some credit for >> advances we did make. > >I'm sure there will be a few good things for them to point at and say, >"They weren't all bad". Yeah, I'm sure they'll look back and say... "Hmmmm. Spike and the Johnson giy were Ok for their time..." LOL : ) >>>You failed to mention the one thing that we do today >>>that, IMO, will be viewed as a horrific crime against humanity on the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Or more like a supernova. :) And people wonder why I wear my sunglasses at night.... : 0 ) >> And I really hope that by then, such things won't be necessary no >> matter what the reason. > >IMO, the main reason it is done does not make it necessary. It is the >ultimate indicator of just how selfish our society has become. That's one I have no answer for. I'm not a woman. I don't have to deal with those issues, so I don't feel right in mandating a prohibition on something which only affects me in a peripheral way. I think that must be a woman's decision. I do think there are times when it is, and should be justified (or at leased excused). Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > There are plenty of ways to show support for Southern pride, disdain for > government control over people, free speech and heritage that don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > need to get over it and move on so do many whites, many of which fly the > Confederate flag. RIGHT ON MICHAEL! Woot! Well said! K. If you can find it, track down the file Recession.wmv >>>SNIP >>>t over the economics of slavery [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] >will read in most all books that are studied in schools today. There is >not much in the way of propaganda, IMO. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >There are plenty of ways to show support for Southern pride, disdain for >government control over people, free speech and heritage that don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >need to get over it and move on so do many whites, many of which fly the >Confederate flag. I don't dispute what you say about the flag. And yet, Can you imagine how some Japanese Americans might feel about the American flag after they had their homes taken, businesses closed, and were shipped of to God forsaken places in the desert during WWII for doing nothing more wrong than being of Japanese descent? And they did not get anything back when the war ended. Or that many had relatives back in Japan who were cremated in an instant, or poisoned by radiation? Family and ancestors are very important to the Japanese. I don't say that they do feel bitter when they see the flag waving, but what if they did? Should we stop flying the flag? Or change it's design to appease their feelings? For the way we treated fellow Americans, in a way we did not do to German Americans, Italian Americans, etc. I ask again. Where does it end? One of my heroes is Colin Powell when it comes to race issues. The idea that it is time to quit using such excuses to hold oneself back, or to not even try. My personal feeling is that we need to rid ourselves of the assigned racial tags. It seems strange that there should be Black Americans when I don't see people walking around saying 'I'm a Dutch American, or whatever. yes, such groups still recognize and celebrate their heritage, but they seem to be Americans first, and Dutch or whatever second. I don't go around proclaiming myself to be a White-Anglo-Celtic-German-Scottish-Cherokee-Oneida-Italian American. I was born an American, and I hope to die an American. Racial tags do irritate many who fall into the lump of "white", especially when used to give preferential treatment to any group over another. It's understood why it came about, but we are actually discriminating against people whose ancestors immigrated here after slavery ended, and people whose ancestors never owned slaves, nor would have approved of slavery. I have mentioned how some of us see the erosion of society. This is one of those areas. Once people immigrated to become Americans. Now they immigrate and Americans are expected to adapt to them. i still believe we should all be Americans first, and heritage second, along with political views and the rest. (Of course this doesn't apply, nor is it intended as an affront to members of this august group who may be from other nations.) I realize that's not pc, but it is discrimination used to eliminate discrimination. That, to me, has never made sense. How can you teach people not to discriminate, when you teaching tool is discrimination against them? Kinda like a TV evangelist who wants money ... not to feed the starving people and thereby induce them to become Christian, but to provide them with a TV and a VCR and a tape about Christian love. What does a starving person care about that when they have no idea when the next meal will come. In the words of Rodney King, "C-c-c-c-an't we all just get along?" Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address ><snip> Pardon my Language but: f.cking BRAVO I hate race, period. I hate the fact America still coddles to it. That me, as a 25 yo white, technically single white mail cannot get the same financial assistance starting a company that anyone of ANY other race can, becuase the government assumes i am born with a silver spoon or some such balderdash. I consider myself Racially unbiased. I find all races attractive for differnt reasions, but i dont see it as race. They are HUMAN. Making up for slavery? Bull. NOONE currently alive AFAIK was a slave. NOONE. There should be no reparations. Its OVER FOLKS. AS far as the people migrating and expecting us to adapt? That is give and take. YES we are a melting pot, so we should integrate some. HOWEVER, that being said, i get sick (from living in New MExico) of people coming from another country (mexico in this casE) and expecting me to learn thier language so they can interact with me. MY country, speak bloody ENGLISH. Learn it for crying out loud, quit being lazy. I know people who have come from Zimbabwe, Holland, Russia, and Mexico who have learned to speak enough engish to interact, even if they ahve a heavy accent. Doesnt matter on that, they are attempting to Become part of America, not have america become thier old country. Thats why they got away to begin with, nez pa? None of this is PC, but as a punk goth (and trust me, i get my share of predjudice becuase i wear a black trench in Denver, and wear leather, and heck, just wear black in general) i dont give a damned :) Ivan Otter Rudakov Punk/Goth/metalhead/unnicheable People are more likely to violently protest fur than leather, for it is easier to harrass rich people than a biker gang... I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. --Susan B Anthony "We're not like God. Not only are our powers limited... but we sometimes have to play the Devil..." -Nicholas D Wolfwood When you mentioned Goth, I was about to inquire if you were related. It sounded like one of my cousins, but he's in California. : ) It does irk me when I dial a number and get voicemail that says, "To continue in English, PRESS or SAY "One" " It should only be, "To receive assistance with a language other than English, PRESS or SAY "One" ". >><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >can, becuase the government assumes i am born with a silver spoon or some >such balderdash. I can't say I hate race... I really enjoy drag racing, Indy, GP, swamp buggies, aircraft, America Cup, etc : ) My folks got my silver spoon with a full service fill up in 1947. Of course, the silver had worn off by the time I showed up. >I consider myself Racially unbiased. I find all races attractive for >differnt reasions, but i dont see it as race. They are HUMAN. I'm a Heinz 57 : ) Except for the Grays who live out at Area 51. I don't think they are human 'cause none of them have drivers licenses. They seem to like saucers rather than Mustangs, which is OK, I guess, but they really should hang some hot wheels on there just for looks. >Making up for slavery? Bull. NOONE currently alive AFAIK was a slave. >NOONE. There should be no reparations. Its OVER FOLKS. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >America, not have america become thier old country. Thats why they got >away to begin with, nez pa? This is one of the things that is fracturing the nation.Instead of pulling together, groups are becoming islands and walling themselves off. >None of this is PC, but as a punk goth (and trust me, i get my share of >predjudice becuase i wear a black trench in Denver, and wear leather, and >heck, just wear black in general) i dont give a damned :) Have to disagree here. Basic black is no problem UNTIL you add the Klingon boots, Matrix overcoat, and the makeup. That was my cousin at one of our cousin's funeral. And his girlfriend, who is really nice, was just a little further out. >Ivan Otter Rudakov > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >have to play the Devil..." >-Nicholas D Wolfwood Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > When you mentioned Goth, I was about to inquire if you were related. > It sounded like one of my cousins, but he's in California. : ) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > receive assistance with a language other than English, PRESS or SAY > "One" ". The trouble with that logic is the person that doesn't understand English won't know what was said and therefore which button to push. :) As long as, in an English speaking nation as this is supposed to be, I don't have to make the choice to continue in English. I don't even expect everyone to come here and drive a Mustang. There are other Ford products they can drive. >> When you mentioned Goth, I was about to inquire if you were related. >> It sounded like one of my cousins, but he's in California. : ) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The trouble with that logic is the person that doesn't understand >English won't know what was said and therefore which button to push. :) Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > As long as, in an English speaking nation as this is supposed to be, I > don't have to make the choice to continue in English. It's all about the free market. Companies know there is money to be made from the Hispanic community, hence they make sure their marketing and customer service attracts and keeps them as patrons. As a business owner, I would do the same if it meant I would have a more profitable business. After all, it is the American way. ;) > I don't even expect everyone to come here and drive a Mustang. There > are other Ford products they can drive. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address >> As long as, in an English speaking nation as this is supposed to be, I >> don't have to make the choice to continue in English. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >owner, I would do the same if it meant I would have a more profitable >business. After all, it is the American way. ;) No argument... money talks. Did you see on the news today that in two states they are offering cheap home loans specifically targeted at illegal aliens? One state is putting up $15M. Something like 10 banks are already on the bandwagon. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>As long as, in an English speaking nation as this is supposed to be, I >>>don't have to make the choice to continue in English. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cheap home loans specifically targeted at illegal aliens? One state is > putting up $15M. Something like 10 banks are already on the bandwagon. Yeah, I read about that too. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I can see the good and bad in it. The whole immigration thing is a tough issue for me. If you look at the history of this country, especially in the 1800s and early 1900s, we had a wide open immigration policy. The huge influx of people is what made us a great nation. Even then there was strain from such a large population increase. The Irish and many other nationalities were treated horribly for decades but they assimilated over time. In many ways I see the Hispanics in the same light. We think they aren't assimilating but that takes at least a generation to happen. They do come here and work extremely hard doing jobs the rest of us will not take. I know that in my area of Washington, DC if it weren't for Hispanic labor we couldn't get a shopping center or house built, served at a fast food restaurant, car washed etc. Personally, I think they are providing vital services that is making our economy robust. Plus, if it wasn't for immigration our population would be stagnant. We would be in the same situation as many European countries - that being stagnant economic grow. Too many of us think that the Hispanics that come here should immediately become just like us and speak English but that, in reality, isn't possible. When I think of the Hispanics I know personally, they are very religious, have strong family values, have an amazing work ethic, appreciate and have a love for the good old USA and are not looking for handouts but just an opportunity to work and live a good life. Now if that isn't assimilating to our way of life then what is it? My solution to the immigration problem is to first tighten up our border, then document and let into the country as many immigrants from Central and South America as we need or can reasonable absorb. The ones that are already here need to step forward and register. If they don't and are caught, then they are deported and can't return for 10 years. The ones that register and work here for 7-10 years can then apply for citizenship. This way i feel we can all come out winners. >>>>As long as, in an English speaking nation as this is supposed to be, I >>>>don't have to make the choice to continue in English. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >washed etc. Personally, I think they are providing vital services that >is making our economy robust. There's no doubt we need them as a labor force. It would take another Great Depression to get most "Americans" to do the type of labor they do. So, i have no problem with work visas. One of my friends is here from Ireland on a work visa. He sorta gets screwed in some ways. Like they withhold for unemployment, but he isn't entitled to unemployment if he loses his job. He has x number of days to find new work or leave. And I'm not against immigration per se, though I think it needs to be tightened down a bit. My grandparents new neighbors came from Italy. They opened a pizza joint. Within 6 months they added a dress shop, then a shoe store, and another pizza place, and a steak place, then headed for other towns. The parents worked like slaves. The next generation worked hard. They ones my age were too busy with their new cars and such. Today, they drive Ferraris and Vipers, and Lambroghini on the money they inherited. My problem is that those two states are a) violating federal law, b) rewarding people for breaking the law, and thus, c) encouraging others to break the law as well. While at the same time, low income citizens can't qualify for similar assistance. >Plus, if it wasn't for immigration our population would be stagnant. We >would be in the same situation as many European countries - that being [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >The ones that register and work here for 7-10 years can then apply for >citizenship. This way i feel we can all come out winners. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address As I see it, you want to remove this bit of bad history because it reminds people of slavery. Yet, it had a history before it became a slavery issue, and that history has been overshadowed to the point of disappearing. >It isn't but lumping it in with those you mentioned isn't putting it in >good company. I believe anyone should have the right to fly it, wear it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to retain slavery but then say they are against owning slaves. These >two positions are mutually exclusive. Slavery comes in many forms. Most think of the black men and women picking cotton. They forget that many of the early white settlers of the colonies were sent here as indentured servants (Australia experienced a very similar condition). That they had to work for an individual for a specified period in order to earn their freedom. To run away was subject to severe punishment. That while an indentured servant, they were subject to the control of the person they were indentured to. Also forgotten, are those white people who went to work for mine owners, and right off the bat, they were in debt from which they could never hope to escape, to the "company store". Once indebted, heaven help the fool who ran away and was caught. What action should be taken in such cases as these? Should any reference on a state flag or other government entity to mining ventures be removed? Many years ago, a new man was assigned to my unit. A really great guy except with reference to slavery. He was black, and his thoughts I understood. However, he held the position that not one black person in the US ever immigrated voluntarily. That every black person in this country was descended from slaves who were brought here by force. He further believed that every black person should be paid for what their ancestors endured, and that a portion of the US should be set aside as a "Black State". Where he acquired his beliefs, I have no idea. But that long ago (1983) history was already being distorted in some way. >> All this "stuff" about changing the logos of states, their flags, and >> renaming geographical locations, school teams, etc, is idiocy. It is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >God in public places. I doubt God sports a Confederate flag in the back >glass of his pickup truck. ;) The California flag has a graphic of a bear... a bear which no longer exists, because it was hunted to extinction. Many would consider that a very bad thing. Suppose those PETA type people decided, as you have about the stars and bars, that this graphic is offensive to those who defend the rights of animals (and trees, owls, etc... and as we all know, California is filled with such people). Should the bear then be removed from the flag in order not to offend people? Where would it end? There are people, citizens, who reside within our borders, who find the US Flag objectionable because of the acts the US has committed in the past; think Nagasaki, and religious groups who deem respect for the flag to be "idol worship". And what if it was something you liked/respected/etc? Perhaps you don't think such things could happen. Well, who expected that Christian symbols would be expelled from public places? Who in the south expected that the battle flag would be banned from public places? Gay marriage approved? Mandates for prisoners to have cable television, and other privileges the average person can't afford? >> Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. How then >> may the people remember if every sign of such ills is stripped away [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >part of our history and should be studied. I just don't understand the >need of some people to brandish this flag. While you may not advocate removal, there are many others who do; as well as the removal of many other things, and/or the "re-interpretation" of historical events. Already, steps have been taken to rewrite the history of WWII, among many other things, to say that the US committed a vile and unnecessary act when the bombs were dropped on Japan, and that that action was not needed to end the war; that it was done solely out of spite for an "inferior race". When I lived in Scotland I had the occasion to read one of the UK history books about the American revolution. Essentially, there was one paragraph relating how these traitors rebelled against the legal and rightful rule of the King.... and an entire page about George Washington and what a fantastic military leader he was. No mention was made of the things GB had committed against the colonists. >> Then, too, we have the push to make atonement to various groups >> (blacks, Japanese, Eskimos, etc) for past transgressions. Bull. To go [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Reparations are not realistic and will never happen. And yet they have been awarded... just not funded. I think too many are too quick to do what is considered politically correct in order not to offend others. In the process, they fail to realize that in doing so, they actually offend another portion of society, and that they erode the rights of one group over another. Their intentions are good and grand, but they give little thought to the big picture. >> It's time this nation stood up, and while condemning such practices, >> tell the ACLU that enough is enough. For both good and bad, this [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Anyone that bashes the ACLU will never see any opposition from me. ;) We may not agree on the battle flag issue... well, actually, we do in some ways... but here we seem to have reached a point of agreement. Cheers! Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > As I see it, you want to remove this bit of bad history because it > reminds people of slavery. Yet, it had a history before it became a > slavery issue, and that history has been overshadowed to the point of > disappearing. I never said I want to remove anything from the history books. All history is relevant whether is is good or bad. As I said in a previous post, the Civil War is now looked at as the war that ended slavery in this country. IMO, it was the most important by-product of that war, and if it wasn't, then I would like to know what was the most important. >>It isn't but lumping it in with those you mentioned isn't putting it in >>good company. I believe anyone should have the right to fly it, wear it [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > reference on a state flag or other government entity to mining > ventures be removed? You are making my point for me. There is no symbol of these forms of slavery. And if there was do you think it is proper to flaunt it in today's society? Whites tell blacks to get over slavery and move on, well I think there are some whites flying the Confederate flag that need to do the same. > Many years ago, a new man was assigned to my unit. A really great guy > except with reference to slavery. He was black, and his thoughts I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > idea. But that long ago (1983) history was already being distorted in > some way. I hope he is not holding his breath waiting for it to happen. It never will. I don't see where anything I have posted indicates that I support his beliefs. For the record I don't. >>>All this "stuff" about changing the logos of states, their flags, and >>>renaming geographical locations, school teams, etc, is idiocy. It is [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Mandates for prisoners to have cable television, and other privileges > the average person can't afford? I'm not sure where you got the idea I was for banning anything. If a State wants to sport the Confederate flag on damn near everything then have at it. I personally think it is callous and insulting to blacks to force them to live with a symbol on or near government buildings that are supposed to represent them too. I really don't see where the offense from having an extinct bear on the California state flag even comes close to the offense felt by blacks when viewing the Confederate flag. The other things you mention are just controversies of our time that each of us can have an opinion on. Whether blacks have justification to be offended by the confederate flag is a settled matter for me. They do have a right and should be offended. Personally, I don't see what a white southerner gets from flying a Confederate flag that justifies that offense toward others. I would be more sensitive to the feelings of my neighbors... and I'm not a sensitive kind of guy. ;) >>>Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. How then >>>may the people remember if every sign of such ills is stripped away [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > And yet they have been awarded... just not funded. If the money isn't in their bank accounts then it never happened. > I think too many are too quick to do what is considered politically > correct in order not to offend others. In the process, they fail to > realize that in doing so, they actually offend another portion of > society, and that they erode the rights of one group over another. > Their intentions are good and grand, but they give little thought to > the big picture. Imagine that, a politician doing what is in HIS best interests and not what is good for the group. Tell me that never happens. ;) >>>It's time this nation stood up, and while condemning such practices, >>>tell the ACLU that enough is enough. For both good and bad, this [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > some ways... but here we seem to have reached a point of agreement. > Cheers! Now I would support enslaving all card carrying members of the ACLU. Then we could make them do something productive. ;) Please re-read what I said. I did NOT say you wanted to remove anything from any history books. What I said was "you want to remove this bit of bad history". The battle flag is the bit of history to which I referred. >> As I see it, you want to remove this bit of bad history because it >> reminds people of slavery. Yet, it had a history before it became a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >this country. IMO, it was the most important by-product of that war, >and if it wasn't, then I would like to know what was the most important. IMHO THE most important by product of the Civil War was not the end of slavery. The most important by product was the preservation of the union. The North won the war... if you call that winning, which upheld the power of the federal government. That was the point of the war. Essentially to say that states (there are exceptions such as Texas and California) were not free to withdraw membership. States would retain certain rights, but the federal government would retain power over the whole. The forced preservation of the union paved the way for what was to come in expanding the nation westward. In the period following the war, there was a great migration westward by people of all colors who had been displaced. Has the war never happened, that migration would likely have lacked the impetus for the growth, which in turn led to greater prosperity. Economically, it was also preserving. The north was the primary industrial base, while the south was the primary agricultural base (which is why the South traded cotton and other commodities to England in exchange for arms and equipment). Individually, each lacked the strength to persevere as a power base. Together, the union was a power to be reckoned with internationall |
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