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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2005Insurance co's rake it in!
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city in the country, according to a new report comparing the cost of car ownership in various a U.S. cities. Released Friday by Runzheimer International, a management consulting firm specializing in transportation reimbursement, the survey revealed that insurance, at $5,162 annually for liability, collision, and comprehensive coverage, is the biggest single reason that maintaining a car in the Motor City is so expensive. Runzheimer calculates costs based on a fully loaded 2006 Ford Five Hundred SEL with a 3.0 liter, 6-cylinder engine. The calculation also assumes that the car is driven an average of 15,000 miles for four years within a 50 mile-radius of the city. Philadelphians would pay nearly as much, $10,672 with $4,142 going to pay for insurance, as would Los Angelenos, at $10,361, including insurance costs of $3,225. The same car would cost just $7,399 a year in Knoxville, Tennessee., a savings of $4,445 compared with Detroit. Maintenance costs also vary quite widely, from a high of 7.35 cents-per-mile in San Francisco to a low of 4.19 cents-per-mile in Charlottetown, Pennsylvania. Car ownership costs: Detroit -- $11,844 Philadelphia -- $10,672 Los Angeles -- $10,361 Boston -- $9,660 Miami -- $9,216 Baltimore -- $9,125 Denver -- $8,949 Houston -- $8,467 Topeka, KS -- $8,078 Grand Forks, ND -- $7,423 Sioux Falls, SD -- $7,401 Knoxville, TN -- $7,399 >NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >comprehensive coverage, is the biggest single reason that maintaining >a car in the Motor City is so expensive. I refuse to believe that an average driver in Detroit pays over $400 a month for full coverage insurance. Anybody here in Rock City? >Runzheimer calculates costs based on a fully loaded 2006 Ford Five >Hundred SEL with a 3.0 liter, 6-cylinder engine. The calculation also [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >cents-per-mile in San Francisco to a low of 4.19 cents-per-mile in >Charlottetown, Pennsylvania. Seems that they missed some other core components to car ownership. We here in the south pay an annual personal property tax on our vehicles. Other states such as California have pretty steep registration fees, and of course there is also the sales tax on the initial purchase. It also seems that the maintenance costs on a new vehicle are pretty damn steep in their calculations unless they are including fuel costs as part of maintenance. >Car ownership costs: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Knoxville, TN -- $7,399 -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) Maybe they mean pay that much for a brand new car, for a driver under age 20, with stacks of moving violations and accidents...... In 1971, one of my friends in tacoma, WA owned a Corvette. Buying insurance, he paid for the car again every 4-5 years. As I recall, the insurance on my then 5 year old 65 Mustang was $129 per month as a rider on my father's policy. The payments on the Mustang were $101 per month. >>NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >>amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >>Knoxville, TN -- $7,399 Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >Maybe they mean pay that much for a brand new car, for a driver under >age 20, with stacks of moving violations and accidents...... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >rider on my father's policy. The payments on the Mustang were $101 per >month. Ok, my current licensed & registered stable includes a 2005 F-150, 2001 Mustang ragtop, 2002 Chevy Astro, 2002 Chevy S-10 and a `99 HD FXSTC. The insured drivers on all vehicles are two 50 year olds with clean records, a 21 yo female with a pretty shabby record, and a 17yo with a clean record. For all of this I pay $1900 every six months for full coverage with $250 deductibles and $100/300K liability. The bike is $300 a year on top of that. The most expensive of the herd is the `01 Mustang which is assigned to the 17 yo at $750 every six months. The `05 F-150 with me as the assigned driver is $305 every six months. Now that is four insured drivers on five vehicles at less then the quoted $5k a year. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) I have attempted to get a point across regarding keeping an open mind with regard to things like what Bush did or did not do, right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral, the issue regarding the Battle Flag of the Confederacy, etc. It is not my intention to get others to think the same things I think, but rather to think for themselves and not be influenced by others who are biased and have an agenda of their own. Then, a few minutes ago, a friend, who has no idea of the discussions going on, sent me the following which pretty well exemplifies how I look at the world..... Open Mind The mind is like a parachute - it works best when it is open. How quickly do we make assumptions, jump to conclusions and close our mind? How easily do we form and hold fast to our opinions and then close our mind? How fast do we make a judgment, slap on a label and then close our mind? A closed mind never knows the delight of playing with possibilities, being enlightened by others point of view or enjoying the diversity of human life. An open and understanding mind never assumes, doesn't jump to conclusions and won't hold fast to any opinion. Perhaps it is no wonder a closed mind is not a very relaxed mind. Sooo... was it coincidence? Fate? Alien intervention? or X-Files? : ) Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address My vote's on alien intervention. K. > I have attempted to get a point across regarding keeping an open mind > with regard to things like what Bush did or did not do, right or [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address Really? I was actually leaning more toward karma : ) Like, you just wait until my next life!!! LOL >My vote's on alien intervention. > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." >> -JFK Inaugural Address Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >>amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I refuse to believe that an average driver in Detroit pays over $400 a >month for full coverage insurance. Anybody here in Rock City? In Toronto, it's about right. I have an unblemished record and was quoted $11,000/yr for my Mustang by one company. The lowest was was $5,200. I doubt I'd get even a domestic sedan (one of the least expensive cars to insure) for under $3000. -Rich >In Toronto, it's about right. I have an unblemished record and was >quoted $11,000/yr for my Mustang by one company. The lowest was was >$5,200. I doubt I'd get even a domestic sedan (one of the least >expensive cars to insure) for under $3000. >-Rich In the Chicago 'burbs, I pay $550 a year for a 2005 Mustang GT conv. through AARP/The Hartford. As if the price of fuel wasn't bad enough.... Makes ya wonder how heavily invested in the ricer car market the insurance companies are.... >>>NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >>>amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >expensive cars to insure) for under $3000. >-Rich Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >As if the price of fuel wasn't bad enough.... Makes ya wonder how >heavily invested in the ricer car market the insurance companies >are.... Actually I never wondered about that. Investments by insurance companies has everything to do with return on investment and little to do with anything else. >>>>NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >>>>amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) Sorry. Apparently the sentiment didn't come through. I actually do understand how insurance companies work. They rake it in and hope to hell they don't have to pay anything out. Of course they do, but the goal is always to pay out much less than they take in. >>As if the price of fuel wasn't bad enough.... Makes ya wonder how >>heavily invested in the ricer car market the insurance companies [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." >> -JFK Inaugural Address Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >Sorry. Apparently the sentiment didn't come through. I actually do >understand how insurance companies work. They rake it in and hope to >hell they don't have to pay anything out. Of course they do, but the >goal is always to pay out much less than they take in. The goal of any business I would suspect. >>>As if the price of fuel wasn't bad enough.... Makes ya wonder how >>>heavily invested in the ricer car market the insurance companies [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >>Sorry. Apparently the sentiment didn't come through. I actually do >>understand how insurance companies work. They rake it in and hope to >>hell they don't have to pay anything out. Of course they do, but the >>goal is always to pay out much less than they take in. >> >The goal of any business I would suspect. Well, at least for anyone who wants to stay in business and not lose everything they have... : ) Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >>>amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >expensive cars to insure) for under $3000. >-Rich Well two things; First that isn't the US, and second, that is insane. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) > NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an > amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city > in the country, according to a new report comparing the cost of car > ownership in various a U.S. cities. Blah, blah, blah. What the f.ck do you expect? Someone has to pay for the insurance payouts related to 9/11. The 9/11 payouts are a drop in the bucket. The repeated losses to natural disasters has far surpassed the level of 9/11 on many occasions. >> NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It costs more to own a car in Detroit, an >> amazing $11,844 a year for a mid-sized sedan, than in any other city [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Blah, blah, blah. What the f.ck do you expect? Someone has to pay for >the insurance payouts related to 9/11. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address Don't bet on it. My brother, who's in the insurance industry, is still working claims from 9/11, and he tells me that the amount of money that continues to get paid out is mind-boggling. > The 9/11 payouts are a drop in the bucket. The repeated losses to > natural disasters has far surpassed the level of 9/11 on many [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address It may be mind boggling, but I note that quoting your brother does not include a comparison of the payouts for multiple hurricane destructions, earthquakes, forest fires, etc vs 9/11. Many cases are not settled until years after something happens. There are quite a number of cases where the litigants actually die before the case is settled. Why? Because that's what the insurance companies want. Drag it out as long as possible. Why? In some cases because once the litigants die, the case is over and nothing has been paid. In other cases, if they drag it out long enough, the litigants will run out of funds to fight them, and will be glad to settle for whatever amount they can get. In other cases it's because attorneys are making money hand over fist. I would venture that the majority of suits from 9/11 are handled by contingency. So, whatever the case settles for, the attorney gets generally 1/3. For example, when my son was killed, the attorneys for his estate collected three times what his mother, sister, and I collected as individuals... and his mother was right there when the school bus ran him down on the sidewalk of his school. Now. That case should have been open and shut. But the attorneys drug it out and fought for every penny they could get. They actually were paid 8 times what I got, and they didn't lose a son. >Don't bet on it. My brother, who's in the insurance industry, is >still working claims from 9/11, and he tells me that the amount of [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." >> -JFK Inaugural Address Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >It may be mind boggling, but I note that quoting your brother does not >include a comparison of the payouts for multiple hurricane [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >penny they could get. They actually were paid 8 times what I got, and >they didn't lose a son. I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Son. If it doesn't drag up some bad-a.s memories I would like to query you on some issues of the case. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >>It may be mind boggling, but I note that quoting your brother does not >>include a comparison of the payouts for multiple hurricane >>destructions, earthquakes, forest fires, etc vs 9/11. True, as he doesn't work those cases. But the 9/11 cases are dragging out a lot longer than most hurricane cases down here in SoFla. >>Many cases are not settled until years after something happens. There >>are quite a number of cases where the litigants actually die before [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>amount they can get. In other cases it's because attorneys are making >>money hand over fist. Another sad truth. >>I would venture that the majority of suits from 9/11 are handled by >>contingency. So, whatever the case settles for, the attorney gets >>generally 1/3. Not necessarily, but in some cases yes. >>For example, when my son was killed, the attorneys for his estate >>collected three times what his mother, sister, and I collected as [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ZombyWoof > (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) I'm also sorry to hear about your son. That's something I can't even imagine. You have my heartfelt sympathy. Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC I appreciate the sentiments, but, it's in the past... in a way. Everything which happens in our lives changes us in some way. And as they say, 'what does not kill you, makes you stronger.' Today, when I mention that situation, it is to illustrate a point, not to evoke sympathy. Points of view I may express are derived from what I have experienced over 57 years of life. Years in which I rejected the things my parents tried to teach me (dang stuff sank in anyway), and today, I see that they were a lot more right than I gave them credit for then. One of the many reasons I wish people would not judge people, like Bush or their neighbor, until the facts are in. Simple example. Sexual offenders are a hot topic, whether they prey on children or adults. Nobody wants them living next door. The law requires them to register. Now, teens being teens, boy goes with girl, boy and girl have mutually consensual sex, girl is one month away from being legal and the boy is legal already. Her mom and dad find out and they push for prosecution and boy is either found guilty or pleads out to "statutory rape". The boy is now, by law, a sex offender for the rest of his life. He must register everywhere he goes, just as if he were a pedophile or rapist. Neighbors find out he has a sex offender tag. They don't ask why or what he did. They just want him run out of town. Employers won't hire him. He gets beaten up by some good ol' boys at the local watering hole. He has been judged without people knowing the true facts. They just go by what they hear and read. Is that the way things should be? I think not. People need the whole truth, not just bits and pieces that make things look one way or the other. >>>It may be mind boggling, but I note that quoting your brother does >not [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies >Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address I know you weren't looking for sympathy; I just had to comment because that's one of my private terrors that I hope I never experience. At any rate, some great points below, Spike. > I appreciate the sentiments, but, it's in the past... in a way. > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address No offense taken at all. It's every parent's terror. It's a natural belief that we should never outlive our children. And it's something that always happens to the other guy/gal... not us. From personal experience, I would not wish it on my worst enemy... the child does not deserve it. My son, was 12, and wanted to be an oceanographer and was already working toward that goal. He had a right to live a long life. Too often in all the hustle and bustle of today, parents don't pay enough attention to their children. If they lose them, it's too late to make up for it. Things don't always go the way we plan or the way we think they should. And as my stepson said, 'bad things do happen to good people.' So parents should live each day of their children's lives as if there won't be a tomorrow. >I know you weren't looking for sympathy; I just had to comment because >that's one of my private terrors that I hope I never experience. [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] >> I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." >> -JFK Inaugural Address Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address > No offense taken at all. It's every parent's terror. It's a natural > belief that we should never outlive our children. And it's something [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > good people.' So parents should live each day of their children's > lives as if there won't be a tomorrow. Amen to that. >>I know you weren't looking for sympathy; I just had to comment because >>that's one of my private terrors that I hope I never experience. [quoted text clipped - 136 lines] > I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address Just....Bravo on the sex offender bit. Very true, unfortunately. Happened to a friend. It seems like in America (rant) Murderers and DUIers are punished less than sex offenders, becuase there is no registration for them, yet they commit FAR more repeat offences. This country is obsessed with an oxymoron of "sex is naughty" combine with" sex sex sex". Its quite....stupid really. (/rant) Our Judeo-Christian and Puritan heritage does have some negatives. (It might seem strange, but Italy, which is predominantly Catholic, has one of the highest abortion rates in the world.) Unfortunately, in the case of sex offenders, it is that they prey on the most defenseless of society, where common murderers and DUIers are generally non-discriminatory. >Just....Bravo on the sex offender bit. Very true, unfortunately. Happened >to a friend. It seems like in America (rant) Murderers and DUIers are >punished less than sex offenders, becuase there is no registration for >them, yet they commit FAR more repeat offences. This country is obsessed >with an oxymoron of "sex is naughty" combine with" sex sex sex". Its >quite....stupid really. (/rant) Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >Just....Bravo on the sex offender bit. Very true, unfortunately. Happened >to a friend. It seems like in America (rant) Murderers and DUIers are >punished less than sex offenders, becuase there is no registration for >them, yet they commit FAR more repeat offences. This country is obsessed >with an oxymoron of "sex is naughty" combine with" sex sex sex". Its >quite....stupid really. (/rant) Of course the case cited was ludicrous, but there are an awful lot of real no joke no sh.t sex offenders out there and I have no problem with the death penalty (by my own hand of course) for anyone who harms either of my children. Rape my wife, pay wife your life as well. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) Actually, the case cited was a real case out of Kern County, California with one exception, the mother, who provided the girl with birth control pills, actually testified for the boy. I forget who turned in the initial complaint, but, once the DA had it in hand, nobody could get it dropped. He was found guilty anyway and sent to an adult correctional facility. As for those who would prey on children, women, the elderly, etc, as long as it is done in keeping with the law, "string 'em up... it'll teach 'em a lesson." >>Just....Bravo on the sex offender bit. Very true, unfortunately. Happened >>to a friend. It seems like in America (rant) Murderers and DUIers are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >with the death penalty (by my own hand of course) for anyone who harms >either of my children. Rape my wife, pay wife your life as well. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >Actually, the case cited was a real case out of Kern County, >California with one exception, the mother, who provided the girl with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > "string 'em up... it'll teach 'em a lesson." Oh I believed it was a real case alright. It was absolutely to insane not to be. What was ludicrous is the fact that it actually happened. Just because there is a faulty application of the law does not mean the law itself is faulty. If some pedophile junkie pond scum molested/raped/tortured one of your children you wouldn't want them hung by the neck? If they weren't and got back out you wouldn't want to know they just moved in down the street? >>>Just....Bravo on the sex offender bit. Very true, unfortunately. Happened >>>to a friend. It seems like in America (rant) Murderers and DUIers are [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >>As for those who would prey on children, women, the elderly, etc, as >>long as it is done in keeping with the law, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >hung by the neck? If they weren't and got back out you wouldn't want >to know they just moved in down the street? As the last line in my post pointed out... there's no major argument there regarding the sickos. But, it's not all good law with faulty application. The way many new laws read, the judge is given no leeway in sentencing. I deem that to be faulty law when the "innocent" (as in the cited case) become victims. My point is that when people write/support knee jerk reactions into law, there has to be some mercy for those who are not criminals in the same sense. And it is knee jerk response when there is no thought but to rid society of a condition when no consideration is given for exceptions. I'm sure many here know of laws which were implemented because something happened in a rare instance, and someone thought a law was necessary to prevent it from ever happening again. Situations, which might never have happened again anyway. The law is "supposed" to be handed down with equality, fairness, and mercy. The latter was the break from the then European idea that if you stole a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, you went to prison for, in many cases, life. As in the cited case, there are the true sickos, and then there are those who, because of the way a law is written, are labeled so when they don't deserve it. Most of us here were at some point in time in our teens. There but for the grace of God, any one of us might have gone. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>>As for those who would prey on children, women, the elderly, etc, as >>>long as it is done in keeping with the law, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >in sentencing. I deem that to be faulty law when the "innocent" (as in >the cited case) become victims. That was a reaction (good, bad or indifferent) to many liberal judges not doing what they really needed to do. There are plenty of people wasting away in prisons who don't need to be there as they are no major harm to society, and others who are released to prey on us once again who should have been strung-up the first time around. I can't remember the exact details were there was a semi-recent case of a pedophile getting out and raping some little girl after killing her family. It wasn't his first go around and he should have never ever got a second chance. >My point is that when people write/support knee jerk reactions into >law, there has to be some mercy for those who are not criminals in the >same sense. And it is knee jerk response when there is no thought but >to rid society of a condition when no consideration is given for >exceptions. Again in your case it should have never ever gone to trial and should've been handled at the DA level with a plea bargain. More then likely ineffective counsel or over anxious DA. >I'm sure many here know of laws which were implemented because >something happened in a rare instance, and someone thought a law was >necessary to prevent it from ever happening again. Situations, which >might never have happened again anyway. I am trying to think of one, but for the life of me I really can't. That doesn't mean I agree with all laws or even follow all laws. It only means that I either have to accept it or work to change it. >The law is "supposed" to be handed down with equality, fairness, and >mercy. The latter was the break from the then European idea that if >you stole a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, you went to >prison for, in many cases, life. Personally I think the concept of debtors prisons or indentured servitude should be brought back. Stealing is stealing regardless of the circumstances. However, the party harmed should have the majority say in the sentence and should be allowed to made whole again. >As in the cited case, there are the true sickos, and then there are >those who, because of the way a law is written, are labeled so when >they don't deserve it. Most of us here were at some point in time in >our teens. There but for the grace of God, any one of us might have >gone. It every instance there are the extremes at either end of the spectrum. In order to make an omelet (or society safe) a couple of eggs gotta be broke. My cousin is a rather high ranking LE Officer. He has a saying that goes something like "Sometimes the person sent away isn't guilty of the crime, but very rarely are they truly innocent." Every time a crime goes down there are the "Usual Suspects" who get checked out. They are usually just waiting to get a chance to catch a guy who they know is dirty, but haven't been able to prove it. Hang em, Hang em high. -- Some Western I saw once. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >That was a reaction (good, bad or indifferent) to many liberal judges >not doing what they really needed to do. There are plenty of people [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >family. It wasn't his first go around and he should have never ever >got a second chance. True, but the reaction was, essentially, and overreaction. An over compensation which restricted the hands of all judges, liberal or hard line. That is a difference between sexual predators like pedophiles, and murderers, robbers, etc. With the exception of real wackos (the Hannibal the Cannibal types), murderers, robbers, etc, can choose not to commit. The sexual predator is driven to commit and can not be rehabilitated or cured. The repeat offense is nearly 100%. Even with castration, the drive is still there, and the perp will use other means to try to assuage the drive. We have one out here who was released after serving his full term. Technically, he had done his payment to society. The guy was driven out of several towns. The last i heard, the state had set him up in a trailer within the grounds, but out side San Quentin prison, and there he lives. >>My point is that when people write/support knee jerk reactions into >>law, there has to be some mercy for those who are not criminals in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >should've been handled at the DA level with a plea bargain. More then >likely ineffective counsel or over anxious DA. Election year, court appointed defense lawyer, and a public up in arms over rising reports of sexual assaults (which for the most part were between spouses, and many were later either proven false or recanted). >>I'm sure many here know of laws which were implemented because >>something happened in a rare instance, and someone thought a law was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >That doesn't mean I agree with all laws or even follow all laws. It >only means that I either have to accept it or work to change it. While it is not from this country; it actually comes from Malaysia; a government official walking down the street stepped in some gum which someone had cast aside. He became so irate he went back and pushed through a new law. It is now illegal to chew gum there, and violation is subject to caning. >>The law is "supposed" to be handed down with equality, fairness, and >>mercy. The latter was the break from the then European idea that if >>you stole a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, you went to >>prison for, in many cases, life. >Personally I think the concept of debtors prisons or indentured >servitude should be brought back. Stealing is stealing regardless of >the circumstances. However, the party harmed should have the majority >say in the sentence and should be allowed to made whole again. Indentured servitude is essentially legalized slavery... a condition I thought we had put behind us. True. Stealing is stealing. Suppose someone who is mentally impaired commits a theft. Or a five year old child? And does society want to bear the financial burden approaching $100,000 per year for a $2 loaf of bread? Consider your own situation if, for example, (and I know this sounds like a good idea for a movie) your child needed medical treatment you could not afford. What lengths would you go to save your child? Or wife? or whoever? >>As in the cited case, there are the true sickos, and then there are >>those who, because of the way a law is written, are labeled so when [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >chance to catch a guy who they know is dirty, but haven't been able to >prove it. That's just fine, UNLESS you happen to be one of those extremes. Remember that when you get caught up in a situation and they're sending you away. Just accept it because a 'couple of eggs gotta get broke"... (not that I expect it to happen to you, but put yourself in the position of the "extreme at one end or the other." I don't like to disagree with another cop, but that attitude, while it may be right on the mark, sucks if we are to be a nation of laws. Yeah, I used to get PO'd to see my perp take a walk. But, even though I think it has gone too far in protecting the bad guys, I'm not going to throw out the Construction I've sworn to uphold with that kind of outlook. >Hang em, Hang em high. -- Some Western I saw once. Yeah. One place i worked, our theme song was "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>That was a reaction (good, bad or indifferent) to many liberal judges >>not doing what they really needed to do. There are plenty of people [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >compensation which restricted the hands of all judges, liberal or hard >line. Of course if was an over reaction, but the public was fed up with the coddling of some major perpetrators. In places were judges aren't elected and aren't doing the job that the public wants them to do what is the alternative? >That is a difference between sexual predators like pedophiles, and >murderers, robbers, etc. With the exception of real wackos (the [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) Whoops sent to fast. >That is a difference between sexual predators like pedophiles, and >murderers, robbers, etc. With the exception of real wackos (the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >trailer within the grounds, but out side San Quentin prison, and there >he lives. People are scared. They know that LE in this country is able to do very little to prevent crime. Sure they do a pretty good job of catching the guy after the fact, but their hands are tied in actual prevention efforts. At best they are able to protect us from those horrible speed demons. Perhaps we need to create one of those prisoner islands were they can all go to live and murder, rape & rob each other to their hearts content. >>>My point is that when people write/support knee jerk reactions into >>>law, there has to be some mercy for those who are not criminals in the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >over rising reports of sexual assaults (which for the most part were >between spouses, and many were later either proven false or recanted). Well there ya go. Through in politics and throw logic out the window. >>>I'm sure many here know of laws which were implemented because >>>something happened in a rare instance, and someone thought a law was [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >through a new law. It is now illegal to chew gum there, and violation >is subject to caning. Like I said, add politics to the mix and throw logic away. >>>The law is "supposed" to be handed down with equality, fairness, and >>>mercy. The latter was the break from the then European idea that if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Indentured servitude is essentially legalized slavery... a condition I >thought we had put behind us. Not really, they are two distinct things. Indentured Servitude is a state where you work for me until your debt to me is paid off. Steal from me then work for me for free until what you stole is paid off. Or at least go wash police cruisers or something. It is just applying the concept of public service to the person harmed. >True. Stealing is stealing. Suppose someone who is mentally impaired >commits a theft. Or a five year old child? And does society want to >bear the financial burden approaching $100,000 per year for a $2 loaf >of bread? Well this brings in the concept of knowledge of your actions and being responsible for them. They mentally defective and children have always had (and should) punch out clauses. But again if I steal your loaf of bread and your family goes hungry who is going to make you whole? Does my going to jail serve you? Is it justice for you? What if you just wanted me to come over and clean your yard in repayment? Should not the victim of any crime have some say in the punishment? >Consider your own situation if, for example, (and I know this sounds >like a good idea for a movie) your child needed medical treatment you >could not afford. What lengths would you go to save your child? Or >wife? or whoever? Saw that movie. Really didn't like it and it set up the scenario where a certain thing was made OK in a movie so it should be OK in society. Some people wait to the last minute to go to extreme efforts, others through proper due diligence & effort take care of things up front. I have medical care for me & mine for life. Just took a little twenty year stint in indentured servitude. :) >>>As in the cited case, there are the true sickos, and then there are >>>those who, because of the way a law is written, are labeled so when [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >broke"... (not that I expect it to happen to you, but put yourself in >the position of the "extreme at one end or the other." Again, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. As I said before I don't agree with nor follow (all of the time) all of the laws of the land. However, when (and if) I do get popped I take it like a man. I know I did wrong and pay the price. After all I made a choice. >I don't like to disagree with another cop, but that attitude, while it >may be right on the mark, sucks if we are to be a nation of laws. >Yeah, I used to get PO'd to see my perp take a walk. But, even though >I think it has gone too far in protecting the bad guys, I'm not going >to throw out the Construction I've sworn to uphold with that kind of >outlook. As you say it is perhaps right on the mark so it is easy to see why it can be developed. LE simply arrests and presents for prosecution. After that a different group of people take over. Now I am not talking about setting people up or falsifying evidence. What he means by that is a skell is a skell. For every crime they catch them for there are numerous ones they never did catch them or were unable to present enough evidence for to prove in a court of law. So while they may end up successfully putting him away for X, he may have been guilty for the other twenty five letters of the alphabet for which they could not make a case. An example is they really, really liked a guy for a series of smash & grabs at local businesses. They couldn't make a case on that but while under surveillance they caught him stealing car stereos. Once he went away the smash & grabs at businesses stopped. Could be happenstance, but they didn't think so. >>Hang em, Hang em high. -- Some Western I saw once. > >Yeah. One place i worked, our theme song was "The Good, The Bad, and >The Ugly" Now that was a good movie. I used to love those spaghetti westerns. I think I OD on them though. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >People are scared. They know that LE in this country is able to do >very little to prevent crime. Sure they do a pretty good job of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >prisoner islands were they can all go to live and murder, rape & rob >each other to their hearts content. In part, that is because people don't understand law enforcement is not really there to prevent crime except in the psychological sense. As much as it would like to be proactive, it seldom can be. Historically, it's always been reactive... something happens and the cops react. (If we ever get mind reading we could turn that around.) That and the job of law enforcement is really to investigate and report at which point it's handed over to the DA and the courts. It was one of the hardest things to instill in rookies. While, as a citizen, we should care what happens in a case, as cops we should not be concerned. Once we have done our part in the justice system, as long as we did our part right, it becomes someone else's responsibility (ie DA, judge, jury, etc). Put the revolving door out of your mind as much as humanly possible. The best we could hope for is to keep a minimal lid on chaos, and, hopefully, be able to help people who get in a bad situation. There's just way too many of them and not nearly enough of us. Actually, the island idea isn't too bad (I saw that movie). And the military could use it as a nuke test site. Goes along with my idea for defeating Red China without firing a shot. Send them every one of our airline planes, cargo craft, etc. Give 'em free tickets to Disneyworld. Give 'em half enough fuel to get to the states, and leave out the section of the flight manual covering landing instructions. >>Election year, court appointed defense lawyer, and a public up in arms >>over rising reports of sexual assaults (which for the most part were >>between spouses, and many were later either proven false or recanted). >>> >Well there ya go. Through in politics and throw logic out the window. >Like I said, add politics to the mix and throw logic away. Which often results in knee jerk reactions to problems which don't really exist, or exist only minimally. >>Indentured servitude is essentially legalized slavery... a condition I >>thought we had put behind us. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Or at least go wash police cruisers or something. It is just applying >the concept of public service to the person harmed. Except that historically, indentured servitude was still slavery by another name. People worked off their crimes (no matter how petty) it's true. But during that period it was not unusual for the servant to be mistreated, women forced into prostitution, men and children doing hard labor without compensation. Indentured servants were supposed to work off their debt but still be paid for their efforts, which was rarely the case. Often, when their period of servitude was worked off, they were sent forth with nothing to get them started over. That forced many to resort to theft to survive which got them right back where the had been... or worse. In many other cases, their "master" kept them in debt by overcharging them for room and board, etc, just as was done to share croppers and coal miners. >Well this brings in the concept of knowledge of your actions and being >responsible for them. They mentally defective and children have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >if you just wanted me to come over and clean your yard in repayment? >Should not the victim of any crime have some say in the punishment? I don't have a problem with restitution. Nor do I have a problem with laws which prohibit criminals from making a profit from their crimes (ie movie rights, book deals, etc). >>Consider your own situation if, for example, (and I know this sounds >>like a good idea for a movie) your child needed medical treatment you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >things up front. I have medical care for me & mine for life. Just >took a little twenty year stint in indentured servitude. :) I worked and earned similar coverage, though I wonder sometimes if I didn't pay more in the long run. You are right, and still there are too many exceptions; people falling through the cracks no matter how hard they try; to make the laws so rigid. >>That's just fine, UNLESS you happen to be one of those extremes. >>Remember that when you get caught up in a situation and they're [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >land. However, when (and if) I do get popped I take it like a man. I >know I did wrong and pay the price. After all I made a choice. But that wasn't the condition. The condition was there are extremes at each end. In the case where you did NOT do the crime, would you be satisfied to take it like a man because you know you just happen to be one of the extreme cases? I doubt it. >>I don't like to disagree with another cop, but that attitude, while it >>may be right on the mark, sucks if we are to be a nation of laws. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >stealing car stereos. Once he went away the smash & grabs at >businesses stopped. Could be happenstance, but they didn't think so. To a point I would agree. HOWEVER, when you think well we couldn't get the perp for this stuff we are sure he's done before, we'll make up for it with this time borders on ignoring due process just to put someone away. Granted, it provides a high degree of satisfaction for making him pay at least a little, but it tosses aside the basic foundation of the principles upon which the nation was founded. And THAT is something I have a major problem with. I think those principles have been eroded way to far as it is, and various groups are still trying to take more (think ACLU). To look at criminal prosecution in this light is, IMHO, just helping the erosion. >>>Hang em, Hang em high. -- Some Western I saw once. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Now that was a good movie. I used to love those spaghetti westerns. >I think I OD on them though. Yeah? Ever watch those things (or even TV shows) in a foreign language? Talk about ROFLMAO!!!! Hoss Cartwright in Japanese? Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address <snip> >>Not really, they are two distinct things. Indentured Servitude is a >>state where you work for me until your debt to me is paid off. Steal [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >"master" kept them in debt by overcharging them for room and board, >etc, just as was done to share croppers and coal miners. Just because it was implemented in a faulty manner previously doesn't mean to me it isn't worth looking into again with better controls. I just think there are to many personal property crimes where the victim ends up with the shitty end of the stick and the Perp gets three hots & a cot at a facility with color TV's exercise rooms, arts & crafts and so on and so forth. For many of them life in the slams is better then what they had on the outside. >>Well this brings in the concept of knowledge of your actions and being >>responsible for them. They mentally defective and children have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >laws which prohibit criminals from making a profit from their crimes >(ie movie rights, book deals, etc). The problem is a lot of them never ever make restitution. Either the amount is to great or they don't have the resources. I think not only the felons shouldn't profit from their crimes, but no one should. That means the DA, the Defense Attorney, or even the LE officials involved can't generate a dime off of it. If they do it all goes to the victim or their families. The Scott Peterson case is an excellent example. All sorts of ancillary people are raking it in on the death of that poor woman and her unborn child. It is sickening. <snip> >I worked and earned similar coverage, though I wonder sometimes if I >didn't pay more in the long run. You are right, and still there are >too many exceptions; people falling through the cracks no matter how >hard they try; to make the laws so rigid. Myself as well. I was career Military and have quite a few health problems and some service connected issues. <snip> >>Again, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. As I said before >>I don't agree with nor follow (all of the time) all of the laws of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >satisfied to take it like a man because you know you just happen to be >one of the extreme cases? I doubt it. Well call me unrealistic, but I just can't imagine myself being convicted of something I didn't do. I am just never in those situations. However, if for some reason I was tried & convicted for something I was 100% innocent for I would suspect it would have to be a set-up job which I do know happens. I would fight & fight & fight and then would have to eventually have to resign myself to my lot in life. I wouldn't be happy about it, but what else can you do but make the best out of a bad situation? I know that if my wife died under mysterious circumstances I would become suspect number one with a bullet until it could be proved I didn't do prior to LE investigating anyone else. <snip> >To a point I would agree. HOWEVER, when you think well we couldn't get >the perp for this stuff we are sure he's done before, we'll make up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >are still trying to take more (think ACLU). To look at criminal >prosecution in this light is, IMHO, just helping the erosion. No if and's or buts the constitution must be obeyed, but I am a pretty strict constitutionalist and think that the courts have gone a little overboard in some of their decisions. I think in quite a few situations they err on the side of the defendant disregarding good solid police work made in good faith, but with perhaps some really minor technical issue. It is often said that nowadays in the Criminal Justice System the only Justice is for the Criminal. >>>>Hang em, Hang em high. -- Some Western I saw once. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Yeah? Ever watch those things (or even TV shows) in a foreign >language? Talk about ROFLMAO!!!! Hoss Cartwright in Japanese? Oh yeah I was career Military and lived in several overseas locations and got to watch American TV shows & Movies in other languages. Pretty damn funny. There was a spin-off from Happy Days called Joanne loves Chagi (or something like that) just so happens Chagi is Korean slang for penis. So it was Joanne loves dick. There was another one where the character was named Chi-Chi. That is Korean for Titties. Many other examples. Dutch TV is the absolute best with some of the late-night Japanese coming in a close second. One more thing, I do believe that LE could be a little more involved in preventing crime. I don't know how it works/worked where you were, but in many places the revenue from traffic violations goes to the Police Department. Because of this a lot effort is put into catching those lawless speeders. Not the tailgaters, or the red-light runners who cause accidents, but the speeders because it is easy to set-up in one area and monitor Radar. Now in my area is just half of the force that is used for Traffic Enforcement was moved into patrolling neighborhoods, perhaps on bicycles, where their presence is seen & felt and they do a little of the good old beat cop style of police work I think a lot of property crimes could be prevented. I know you'll disagree, but it is just how I feel. The only crimes I've ever been a victim of is property crimes that were more a crime of opportunity because my neighborhood is never ever patrolled even though I am about 2 miles from a police substation. But boy howdy do they set-up speed traps. -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) >I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Son. If it doesn't drag up >some bad-a.s memories I would like to query you on some issues of the >case. It's in the past. That happened back in Mar 1990, and after a bad period, I got past it. As for discussing it, I think that would be better discussed direct depending upon your interest in the case. Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >>I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Son. If it doesn't drag up >>some bad-a.s memories I would like to query you on some issues of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >period, I got past it. As for discussing it, I think that would be >better discussed direct depending upon your interest in the case. A hurt like that sticks around with you for ever & ever. It can be tucked away in the corner of the mind, only to screaming out of the night like a banshee. While I have not lost a child, I came quite close and it was a horrifying experience. I doubt I could live through a complete loss like that without some major scaring. The question had/has to do with lawyers and the fact that they are the only ones who ever win. Did you attempt to negotiate a settlement without legal beagle avarice & greed? -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) Unfortunately, I had no say in the matter. He was raised with my ex, and she got the lawyer. There is an old saying that if one party gets a lawyer, the other better have one as well. The school bus company (private contract to a parochial school - he didn't even ride the bus to school) had an insurance company, and they had a battery of attorneys. That didn't leave much choice. Personally, I would have looked at what the insurance company offered first, and try to barter with them. If it wasn't headed the way I thought it should go, I'd get an attorney. But, to do that, you also have to be realistic. The insurance company has a maximum per incident. Beyond that, you'd have to sue them with a jury. Mega bucks without using a contingency attorney. Also, since this was an ex-spouse issue, it was wise to use an attorney of my own.... essentially, I had to sue the estate. It cost me extra, but it got me about double what the estate attorney offered. And my attorney even reduced his fee afterward. Not by a lot, but some. Instead of 1/3 he took 1/4. As the estate grew in size, my portion got smaller. Bitter ex... and she's the one who ran off and ended up being ex-communicated. In fact, the estate attorney offered me the chance to totally opt out based upon what she told him. He got his when the judge rebuked her in open court. The way it works, it's nearly impossible for the average person not versed in law and insurance, to get by without an attorney, and even then it's a risk. That's about the best I can tell you. >>>I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Son. If it doesn't drag up >>>some bad-a.s memories I would like to query you on some issues of the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >only ones who ever win. Did you attempt to negotiate a settlement >without legal beagle avarice & greed? Spike 1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40 16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial 225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video. "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK Inaugural Address >Unfortunately, I had no say in the matter. He was raised with my ex, >and she got the lawyer. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >versed in law and insurance, to get by without an attorney, and even >then it's a risk. That's about the best I can tell you. The infamous mess. Nothing is ever easy. Every time I have gotten nailed for jury duty it has been a civil case of person(s) X suing person(s), usually for wrongful death. As far as I could tell it always seemed like the only people who were really making out financially were the people in the legal system. Of course no amount of money can replace a loved one or a missing limb. >>>>I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Son. If it doesn't drag up >>>>some bad-a.s memories I would like to query you on some issues of the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it." > -JFK Inaugural Address -- Please Don't Steal - The Government Hates Competition ZombyWoof (take the dogs when replying via e-mail) |
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