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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2005SAE Horsepower Standards To Change
Here's an interesting article. --- In the hopes of eliminating possible disparities between a car's advertised horsepower figure and the power it actually delivers, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has updated its engine-testing standards. The specifications that define acceptable intake-air density and exhaust back pressure are now more rigorous, and accessory losses-such as the power-steering pump-are now included. To use an SAE-Certified label in their advertising, manufacturers must not only abide by the SAE's new test standards, but they also must have their procedures monitored by qualified third-party witnesses. General Motors is the first maker to use the new certification procedure to rate four of its 2006 engines, including the 505-hp LS7 V-8 that energizes the Corvette Z06. Most of the manufacturers will phase in the certification process with their new engines, while carryover powerplants will live indefinitely with their old ratings. --- Patrick '93 Cobra Sounds like semantics to me. What does "the power it actually delivers" mean, anyway? Who's complaining? Are those folks who bought '01 Cobras still whining? Anyway, "the power it actually delivers" lies somewhere between an unadorned engine hooked up to an engine dyno with no air cleaner, an electric water pump, and open headers, like you see tested in the hot rod mags, to an Expedition loaded with a family of four and towing a travel trailer at 9,000 ft through the Rockies. It's really just a question of where you draw the line. If rated hp is just a comparison tool, then it doesn't matter what procedure you use, just so long as everybody uses the same one, and corrects for variations in the equipment, ambient temp, barometric pressure, etc. Ironically, you could just go back to the '60's gross hp concept if all you want to know is how engine X compares to engine Y. Or if you want to know what the cars "actually deliver," then you could skip the dyno altogether and just put the cars on the track for an SS quarter mile or half mile and calculate from trap speed. But either of these would be too easy, I guess. 180 Out > Sounds like semantics to me. What does "the power it actually > delivers" mean, anyway? Who's complaining? Are those folks who bought > '01 Cobras still whining? Probably, as well as owners of the new Rams with the Hemi. 345HP my butt...  Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >> Sounds like semantics to me. What does "the power it actually >> delivers" mean, anyway? Who's complaining? Are those folks who bought >> '01 Cobras still whining? > > Probably, as well as owners of the new Rams with the Hemi. 345HP my > butt... I'm seeing the Chevy trucks feeding the Ram's lunch at the rags. Must be 345 ponies:) Al >>>Sounds like semantics to me. What does "the power it actually >>>delivers" mean, anyway? Who's complaining? Are those folks who bought [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Al And I can take lunch from both and smack them till I get the milk money, mines only rated at 305. The new Hemi doesn't have a half a stroke on the 340CI Nissan... Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG I think it would be neat so see a real world test of the big three's trucks. All the tests I see are so bogus. Ever read the tests in a dirt bike magazine? We need them to test trucks:) Some guys out here had a bulldozer on a trailer and they timed a Powerstroke Ford, a Dodge and a FTR Isuzu all pulling it up a long hill. The Isuzu ran away with it. I think they are about 200 horsepower. The Dodge beat the Ford, but not by much. This was a few years back. They couldn't find anyone willing to try with a Chevy. The only problem is this was no where near an accurate test of anything except these particular trucks. I'd like to see trucks with the same exact load in the bed, say 2,000 pounds, accelerate, stop and handle. Then add a heavy trailer and do some more testing. Al If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. The F-250, with the gas V-10 and towing a 10,800-pound trailer, was more than two truck lengths ahead of the Chevy Silverado 2500 at the end of the quarter-mile. The Dodge Ram 2500 Hem was more than five back. Similar results came when we ran the F-350 dually, powered by the upgraded Power Stroke, against the Ram with the high-output Cummins and the Duramax-powered GMC. The trucks were towing identical 13,400-pound trailers. The Ford, although slow out of the gate, reigned in the Dodge and Chevy within a few hundred yards. It continued to pull away through the end of the ¼-mile, besting the Dodge Cummins by two truck lengths and the Chevy by a good eight. The Ford Power Stroke and five-speed automatic really shine once the load gets rolling. http://www.truckworld.com/Truck-Tests/05-Fseries_super_duty/05_f-superduty.html >I think it would be neat so see a real world test of the big three's >trucks. All the tests I see are so bogus. Ever read the tests in a dirt [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Al Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas Ford for breakfast. And the guys dissing the Hemi apparently aren't doing their homework. Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC > If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> Al Reading comprehension not your strong point, Joe? The was no comparison of the Dodge Diesel against the Ford Gas engine. The two comparisons were between the big 3's 1. gas engines and then their 2. diesel engines The 2005 Cummins will NOT eat the 2005 Power Stroke Ford Diesel for breakfast! As a matter of fact, the only thing it does eat is the Fords exhaust... I've yet to find a Cummins that can out pull or out run my 2005 power stroke diesel. The Cummins is an outstanding industrial engine, but it has nothing performance wise over Ford (International) and GM's (Isuzu) current pickup diesel engine offerings. I'll gladly drag race you in your Cummins powered pickup empty or pulling a trailer up a hill, with my 2005 Power Stroke Diesel Ford, and set you straight on your nonsense versus reality confusion. As for the so called new Hemi, as much as you might be caught up in the name nostalgia, the fact remains the new small block "Hemi" is undersized and under powered for the 3/4-ton/1-ton truck application, as is the 5.4 liter Ford. It's not my fault the Germans currently running Daimler Chrysler can't understand that they need a gas engine with more torque for this application. > Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas Ford > for breakfast. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >>> >>> Al > Reading comprehension not your strong point, Joe? LOL! I'd talk if I were you, Bucky. > The was no comparison of the Dodge Diesel against the Ford Gas > engine. The two comparisons were between the big 3's > 1. gas engines > and then their > 2. diesel engines If you scroll down a bit, you'll see that my comment was about towing, which was in response to the claim about the "best trailer puller there is". After your brilliant comments, I know it's a stretch for you to comprehend that, so no offense taken. > The 2005 Cummins will NOT eat the 2005 Power Stroke Ford Diesel for > breakfast! As a matter of fact, the only thing it does eat is the > Fords exhaust... Well, considering that I never compared the Cummins to the Power Stroke, you might want to apply your first comment to yourself. > I've yet to find a Cummins that can out pull or out run my 2005 > power stroke diesel. Guess you didn't look beyond your back yard. > The Cummins is an outstanding industrial engine, but it has nothing > performance wise over Ford (International) and GM's (Isuzu) current > pickup diesel engine offerings. I'll gladly drag race you in your > Cummins powered pickup empty or pulling a trailer up a hill, with my > 2005 Power Stroke Diesel Ford, and set you straight on your nonsense > versus reality confusion. Sorry, I'm not interested in drag racing you in the least. And I don't have a Cummins-powered pickup. Where'd you get the idea I did? > As for the so called new Hemi, as much as you might be caught up in > the name nostalgia, the fact remains the new small block "Hemi" is > undersized and under powered for the 3/4-ton/1-ton truck > application, as is the 5.4 liter Ford. It's not my fault the > Germans currently running Daimler Chrysler can't understand that > they need a gas engine with more torque for this application. The Hemi is a wonderful engine, and it's got both more horsepower and torque than any gas Triton. Now go back to your daydream, and have a nice day. >> Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas >> Ford for breakfast. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >>>> >>>> Al Are you as damn stupid as your posts indicate? You better reread all the posts, if that doesn't work get someone else to explain it to you, and get back to me when you have figured out how to follow along!!! Geese, you are so pathetic it is beyond funny. :-( I'm sure I will regret confusing you further, but, out of curiosity, how would you propose comparing towing prowess? DUH! >> Reading comprehension not your strong point, Joe? > [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Al Learn to read, idiot. And have a nice day while you're at it. LOL! > Are you as damn stupid as your posts indicate? > You better reread all the posts, if that doesn't work get someone [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> Al > As for the so called new Hemi, as much as you might be caught up in the name > nostalgia, the fact remains the new small block "Hemi" is undersized and > under powered for the 3/4-ton/1-ton truck application, as is the 5.4 liter > Ford. It's not my fault the Germans currently running Daimler Chrysler > can't understand that they need a gas engine with more torque for this > application. Now, I don't know if I would go *that* far. Compare the current Hemi to what was available in the past. from say the mid ot early 70's up through the late 80's ot early 90's. All the major mfgs have a pretty abundant amount of power and torque comparatively. After the last Dodge truck with an available 383, 440 or 426 Wedge rolled off the line and before the diesels got going, what were the power averages at that point?? Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG > Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas Ford > for breakfast. > > And the guys dissing the Hemi apparently aren't doing their homework. Yeah, right. Here's some home work for you. Look and see if the new Hemi is a *real* hemi. I know for a fact that my "305" HP V8 is faster and stronger. Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >> Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas >> Ford for breakfast. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hemi is a *real* hemi. I know for a fact that my "305" HP V8 is > faster and stronger. WF, stop whining. It's annoying. >>>Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas >>>Ford for breakfast. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > WF, stop whining. It's annoying. I should have expected a wuss answer from a wuss.... Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG "WindsorFox[SS]" <windsorfoxNO@SPAMcox.net> wrote in news:r4AIe.625 $ah4.480@lakeread05: >>>>Nonsense. When it comes to towing, the Cummins will eat the gas >>>>Ford for breakfast. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I should have expected a wuss answer from a wuss.... At least I change my oil... LOL! > If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. > > The F-250, with the gas V-10 and towing a 10,800-pound trailer, was more > than two truck lengths ahead of the Chevy Silverado 2500 at the end of the > quarter-mile. The Dodge Ram 2500 Hem was more than five back. Thanks for proving my point. A 10 cylinder Ford vs. a Hemi. Some fair test! How about an older 10 cylinder Dodge and a 5.4L Ford? Will a new 10 cylinder Ford out pull a new 8.1L Chevy? Al >> If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Al In 2005 the under powered Hemi is Dodges only Gas choice, if you don't like the comparison, that is Dodges problem not mine. And yes the 2005 6.8 liter 3 valve per cylinder V-10 Ford makes more horsepower and torque than the 2005 8.1 liter V-8 Chevy. >>> If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the 2005 6.8 liter 3 valve per cylinder V-10 Ford makes more > horsepower and torque than the 2005 8.1 liter V-8 Chevy. If you want power and torque, pay attention: http://www.dodge.com/srt-10/ Class dismissed. As for towing, you've got to be joking if you're not talking diesels. Joe Calypso Green '93 Mustang LX hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC >>>> If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Joe Joe, Run down to the nearest Dodge dealer and look up the towing specs for the SRT-10. Let us know what you find. Al >>>>> If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Al Al, please _read_ before responding. Of course the SRT-10 isn't a tow vehicle, and I never claimed it was. I mentioned the SRT-10 simply because its horsepower and torque run rings around all the other trucks you guys have been touting. And I'll repeat: You've got to be joking if you consider any serious towing with a gas engine. > Run down to the nearest Dodge dealer and look up the towing specs for the > SRT-10. Let us know what you find. > > Al Heh, I don't think the point behind the SRT10 Ram is towing capability like Ford's V10 is. Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >>>>> If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Al Al, You will have to forgive Joe, he suffers from some ailment which impairs his ability to comprehend and reason, this greatly effects his ability stay on topic & his communication skills. But if you would like one source referencing his pathetic SRT-10's towing ratings, You may like to take a gander here: http://truckinweb.com/features/0501tr_truckyear/index6.html I'll post any relevant data about the 8.1 Vs 6.8 as I find it. > Al, > > You will have to forgive Joe, he suffers from some ailment which impairs his > ability to comprehend and reason, this greatly effects his ability stay on > topic & his communication skills. Yabut, he changes his oil! > But if you would like one source referencing his pathetic SRT-10's towing > ratings, You may like to take a gander here: > http://truckinweb.com/features/0501tr_truckyear/index6.html > > I'll post any relevant data about the 8.1 Vs 6.8 as I find it. Hey, the Nissan with big tow package pulls 9400 pounds :p Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >> Al, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yabut, he changes his oil! Damn straight there, bucky. You might want to try it some time. >> But if you would like one source referencing his pathetic SRT-10's >> towing ratings, You may like to take a gander here: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hey, the Nissan with big tow package pulls 9400 pounds :p Whoa. I'm shakin' in my boots. >> Hey, the Nissan with big tow package pulls 9400 pounds :p > > Whoa. I'm shakin' in my boots. You should since the 5.6 Nissan will kick that 5.9 Dakota like it was a little girl.... Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG "WindsorFox[SS]" <windsorfoxNO@SPAMcox.net> wrote in news:xtiJe.778 $ah4.529@lakeread05: >>> Hey, the Nissan with big tow package pulls 9400 pounds :p >> >> Whoa. I'm shakin' in my boots. > > You should since the 5.6 Nissan will kick that 5.9 Dakota like it > was a little girl.... Well, duh. Only an idiot would compare an '05 Nissan against an '03 Dakota. And what weeniemobile are you driving these days, WF? >> Al, >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Hey, the Nissan with big tow package pulls 9400 pounds :p Looks like a Ford Lightning will outrun an SRT-10?? What sense does that make? Al >>> Al, >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Al Looks like you've been reading fiction again, eh? Since there's no '05 Lightning (gee, I wonder why?), this is all moot, but last year's models went head to head and the SRT10 won: http://trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_0407_forddodge/ Here are the numbers if you're interested: http://trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_0407_forddodge/index5.html Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC >> Hey, the Nissan with big tow package pulls 9400 pounds :p > > Looks like a Ford Lightning will outrun an SRT-10?? What sense does that > make? > > Al How you figure? Might be close because of weight differences. Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >> Looks like a Ford Lightning will outrun an SRT-10?? What sense does that >> make? >> >> Al > > How you figure? Might be close because of weight differences. See a lot of Lightning's at the drags. Haven't seen a SRT-10 yet, but the Fords run. Just from the magazine test results on the SRT-10, seems like the Lightning is quicker. Al >>>Looks like a Ford Lightning will outrun an SRT-10?? What sense does that >>>make? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Al Check out this guys home page. I don't know where he copied the test from but it looks like a magazine thing. It shows 5MPH and 3/10 of a second difference between the Lightning and the SRT10. *IF* those numbers are accurate, I would speculate that there is less than the advertised 120HP difference between those two trucks. http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=245060&ck= Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >>>>Looks like a Ford Lightning will outrun an SRT-10?? What sense >>>>does that make? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=245060&ck= You guys are freakin' amazing. As usual, you didn't bother to read. As I already posted, that test came from here: http://trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_0407_forddodge/index5.html It's an '04 comparo that clearly shows the SRT10 whupping the Lightning's a.s. >>>>>> If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > I'll post any relevant data about the 8.1 Vs 6.8 as I find it. Another moron that doesn't have a friggin' clue. Like I said before, learn to read, putz. > If you want power and torque, pay attention: > http://www.dodge.com/srt-10/ > Class dismissed. Yeah, right. I want to see track times and Dyno numbers from a 100% stock SRT 10. I bet they're carrying 50 or more of those horse in the bed or behind the seat.... Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG ROFL!! There's no wonder you'll never see one of these at the track, or even on the road most likely.... 2005 SRT10 QUAD CAB S Pkg. Net MSRP $53,720 Maybe if I won the Powerball. Maybe... Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG "WindsorFox[SS]" <windsorfoxNO@SPAMcox.net> wrote in news:5tAIe.634 $ah4.280@lakeread05: > ROFL!! There's no wonder you'll never see one of these at the > track, or even on the road most likely.... Don't get out much, eh? Or are there only Chebbie-drivin' rednecks in your part of the woods? > 2005 SRT10 QUAD CAB S Pkg. Net MSRP $53,720 > > Maybe if I won the Powerball. Maybe... Ya get what ya pay for. >>If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Al Careflu with that Chevy, you know, their frame is a little on the fragile side compared to the real trucks... :oP Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG >>>If you want the best trailer puller there is only one choice. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Careflu with that Chevy, you know, their frame is a little on the > fragile side compared to the real trucks... :oP Please point me to an honest test of some full size trucks. I don't care what engines are in them if the test is fair. All I was trying to get across is all the test I see are slanted. If you know where there is a test of a new Ford 10 cylinder vs. a GM 8.1L, and any other truck they want to throw in, I'd love to see it. Looked for a long time for a 10 cyl. Ford or an 8.1 Chevy/GMC with a six speed manual and finally just gave up. But I decided then the Ford was not going to be my first choice and no way was I going to buy a Hemi with a five speed. Loved the Ford truck but was hearing so many bad things about the 5.4L and 10 cyl. engines. Already have a 360, five speed 4X4 Dodge and was after something better for towing. Ended up with a six speed, 4X4 CTD. Al > Looked for a long time for a 10 cyl. Ford or an 8.1 Chevy/GMC with a six > speed manual and finally just gave up. Check the glove box, that's where they usually put them. Also, the shifter knob sometimes has the pattern on it. I am really cracking myself up today!!! 180 Out > Please point me to an honest test of some full size trucks. I don't care > what engines are in them if the test is fair. All I was trying to get across > is all the test I see are slanted. If you know where there is a test of a > new Ford 10 cylinder vs. a GM 8.1L, and any other truck they want to throw > in, I'd love to see it. I don't get any truck magazines so I have seen few actual tests. The only one I've seen recently is on the Internet, but it's spnsored by Ford so it is a bit slanted too. Even though there is some good info and it shows that the Chevy has the daintiest frame of all the full size trucks with Toyota's semi-fullsize in number 2. Dodge Ford and Nissan all have fully enclosed steel box frames. Signature"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony... clueless gets you committed..." - JG Interesting. But a car like the 'Vette will *still* be underrated in order to sell them better so we still won't really know what the cars do until they hit some dyno's. This standard just tightens up the minimum that the maker can stamp on the car. SAE needs to revise J1349 JUN90 to include procedures for appropriately correcting absolute manifold pressure systems (wastegates) and chemical supercharging (N2O). That will go a long way to fixing most of the lying that goes on about specific output :). Dan 2003 Cobra convertible With some stuff and things |
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