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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2005351w old to new swap
Ive got a 69 coupe with a 351W, big bell C4 auto. Eventually I want to either get a DSS 408w shortblock or build my own Windsor stroker to swap out. I will be using all new parts on the new block so Im just worried about things like tranny bolt pattern, flywheel, and whatever else anyone who replies can think of that I should know about. Deck height is not really important as it would not be a bad thing to get a different fiberglass hood to save weight. Thanks, Didn't all 302/351 windsor engines come with the same tranny bolt pattern? I thought the only bellhousing change on windsor style smallblocks was with the early 289 blocks. Flywheel wise, I *think* (open to correction) your current engine (if its original) uses the 'old' 28oz imbalance for flywheel/flexplate. My guess is that any crate engine these days will use the 'new' 50oz imbalance and need a corresponding 50oz flywheel/flexplate. And heck, if you have a 351 already, why not go 427Windsor smallblock. :) It *should* fit under you stock hood unless you go high-profile air-gap intake or similar setup. I am dreaming about a 427 stroker/afr head monster in my 86 coupe (2850 lbs). > Ive got a 69 coupe with a 351W, big bell C4 auto. Eventually I want to > either get a DSS 408w shortblock or build my own Windsor stroker to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thanks, > > Didn't all 302/351 windsor engines come with the same tranny bolt [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > high-profile air-gap intake or similar setup. I am dreaming about a 427 > stroker/afr head monster in my 86 coupe (2850 lbs). Hell, why not go all out and do a 427 side-oiler or a 428cj? 8-) >> Didn't all 302/351 windsor engines come with the same tranny >> bolt pattern? I thought the only bellhousing change on windsor style [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Hell, why not go all out and do a 427 side-oiler or a 428cj? 8-) $$$'s. The 427 stroker makes huge horsepower in a standard Windsor package. Other than hood clearance, everything else just bolts up in a fox mustang. I am sure there are FE equipped Foxes out there, but 428cj and 427 side oiler blocks do not come cheap. 351w truck engines are junkyard plentiful. >>> Didn't all 302/351 windsor engines come with the same tranny >>> bolt pattern? I thought the only bellhousing change on windsor style [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I am sure there are FE equipped Foxes out there, but 428cj and 427 side > oiler blocks do not come cheap. 351w truck engines are junkyard plentiful. For cheap, there is no way to beat a 460. Al > For cheap, there is no way to beat a 460. Except that you have to swap more than just the engine if you switch to a 460. Engine mounts, headers, exhaust, tranny, bellhousing, etc... Suddenly not so cheap.  SignatureScott W. '66 HCS Mustang 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/ >> For cheap, there is no way to beat a 460. > > Except that you have to swap more than just the engine if you switch to a > 460. Engine mounts, headers, exhaust, tranny, bellhousing, etc... > > Suddenly not so cheap. Scott, I bought a complete 460 car with a C6 and a 9" for $300. Put all the stuff in a 71 Maverick. Now that was a tight squeeze:) 11.69 was its best. I have a 67 fastback here with a 460 in it. It's not so hard to do. The 67 has a cam, solid lifters, Stealth intake and Holley carb. Runs 11.30's with a 4.30 gear. It's on the shift light well before the line so I think it would run better with 4.10's. This engine has stock pistons, rods, block and so on. The engine had 125K miles on it when we bought it. It's not bored out, no mods to the oiling system, stock oil pump with a washer under the spring. The heads have cleaned up exhaust ports, (Removed the AIR bumps.) some mild porting and PI intake valves. A few weeks ago I put a 650 on it and retarded the timing to 34 total to slow it down because the belts are out of date. Ran 11.535 and 11.545 back to back. Let me know what a small block that will run low 11's in a 67 fastback would cost? BTW: I did not suggest he put a 460 in his Mustang. ONLY said, "For cheap, there is no way to beat a 460." Just for your info. We just built a 557, complete Scat kit, crank, rods and pistons, with Blue Thunder Ford exhaust port heads. It's in a 3600 pound Torino. Runs 10.20's and it's not really tuned yet. The engine was not that expensive to build. Just price the stuff. The block we used is a large web 2 bolt main stocker out .080". This car will be in the high 9's with some tuning. Our strip is at 3075 feet here in Tucson and it's hot as hell to boot. Al >>>> Didn't all 302/351 windsor engines come with the same tranny >>>>bolt pattern? I thought the only bellhousing change on windsor style [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Al Agreed, but the fit isnt as easy as a smallblock. And add 300 or so pounds to the front end of a fox. An aluminum head 427 stroker is probably close to a factory 5.0 in weight, >> Didn't all 302/351 windsor engines come with the same tranny bolt >> pattern? yes; C4, FMX, Toploader in both 3 and 4spd will bolt right up. C6 needs the small block bellhousing. >> Flywheel wise, I *think* (open to correction) your current engine (if >> its original) uses the 'old' 28oz imbalance for flywheel/flexplate. My >> guess is that any crate engine these days will use the 'new' 50oz >> imbalance and need a corresponding 50oz flywheel/flexplate. Nope. You can get them either way. If you buy just the stroker kit you use the original 28oz and balance EVERYTHING! >> And heck, if you have a 351 already, why not go 427Windsor >> smallblock. :) It *should* fit under you stock hood unless you go >> high-profile air-gap intake or similar setup. I am dreaming about a 427 >> stroker/afr head monster in my 86 coupe (2850 lbs). It's not very practical for a daily driver or even a weekender and WAYYYYYYY more expensive than a 393 or 408 stroker. I'm pulling over 480lb/ft and over 430hp out of my 393 stroker. And I can still use the original rods and cheap(er) 302 pistons instead of the high dollar special rods and pistons that HAVE to be used for the big strokers. The only non-stock item was the crank. > Hell, why not go all out and do a 427 side-oiler or a 428cj? 8-) Weight! Expense! I can change the plugs on my Windsor without rocking the block off an engine mount. :) SignatureScott W. '66 HCS Mustang 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/ >> And heck, if you have a 351 already, why not go 427Windsor >> smallblock. :) It *should* fit under you stock hood unless you go >> high-profile air-gap intake or similar setup. Even the Air Gap will fit the stock hood with a drop base air cleaner assembly running a 3" filter. stock 2" filter will run without the drop base. SignatureScott W. '66 HCS Mustang 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/ > Ive got a 69 coupe with a 351W, big bell C4 auto. Eventually I want to > either get a DSS 408w shortblock or build my own Windsor stroker to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thanks, Basically speaking everything bolts up and matches just fine. Treat it like swapping in a new 351W short block. If it's newer, the deck height will be different, and that may affect your intake manifold choice. But the difference in overall height isn't going to matter much, I think it calculates out to less than 1/8". Bellhousing, trans, motor mounts, etc, are all the same. Flywheels differ from one stroker kit to another. It may be 28oz, 50oz, or 0oz. The kit or short block you buy should included a flywheel and a balancer to match the crank balance. They should all be dynamically balanced together, as one assembly. I assembled a 427W for my Cobra from a PAW short block and other parts I bought here and there. The only trouble was the oil pan. It had to be altered in a couple of areas to clear the main cap girdle and the crank throws. No big deal. Signature.boB 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged! 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - Finally on the Road! The crank and balancer info will be usefull. The reason I asked is that my car came with a 351W and a big bell FMX auto. I had a C4 from another 69 with a 302 and when it was swapped the shop had to find a big bell and a different flywheel. The reason I had a shop do the swap was cause they built the C4 for me years ago and were supposed to give a break in price on the swap. But they turned out be a bunch of retards and dont know if they were hosing my or what. As to the easy to suggest big block replies. Well, they are easy to suggest. Everyone of us , or at least me, have had about a hundred people tell me what I should do with (my) car. My girl is a small block pony. I have plenty of fun working on a small block and want to push the envelope on that and keep it a weekend cruiser. The shock towers are enuf in the way when working on a 351w. Not really interested in a big block for this car, tho I would love to do a big block some day in a bigger car like a galaxy or torino. Thanks, www.fargosucks-nobots.com without the -nobots > The crank and balancer info will be usefull. The reason I asked is that > my car came with a 351W and a big bell FMX auto. I had a C4 from [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks, > www.fargosucks-nobots.com without the -nobots Sounds like 393, 408 or 427 windsor power in in your future. :) > The crank and balancer info will be usefull. The reason I asked is that > my car came with a 351W and a big bell FMX auto. I had a C4 from [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks, > www.fargosucks-nobots.com without the -nobots I agree! And when you look at it, the power ends up being pretty close to the same using off the shelf standard parts. The FE will will make a little more power, but it will also weigh a lot more. Since the power:weight ratio is the key, it's almost a wash. The extra weight will adversely affect handling and ride quality. And then there's the extra cost for the average guy to build a high winding powerful FE motor; just compare head prices! Certainly more than a Windsor Stroker. In today's world, I can't think of a practical reason to use the FE big block. Sure, it's cool. But it isn't practical. What are you using for induction? Have you considered the new Mass-Flo EFI? Very slick. www.mass-floefi.com Signature.boB 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged! 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - Finally on the Road! 427W, TKO 5 speed, IRS |
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