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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2005

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A sad state of affairs

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ironrod - 12 Aug 2005 01:35 GMT
You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
on the rust underneath.  As expected, there were several areas where the
rust had eaten all the way through.  The damage was pretty bad but very
localize.  About a two to three inch strip at the bottoms of the sail panels
and a 1 inch strip around the bottom of the rear window.

Obviously, the only way to fix this kind of damage is to cut out the rusted
areas and weld in a new piece.  This kind of work requires a body shop and a
skilled sheet metal man.  So off I go to get an estimate on how much, first
stop Maaco;  Maaco's excuse 'since they don't make skins for cars that old
it can't be fixed'  It actually took the estimator about 15 minutes to get
this sentence out but that was the gist of it.  Well so much for the cheap
approach.  Next stop Harold's; one of only two body shops in Albuquerque
that still work with body solder.  Now at least Harold was honest, he flat
didn't want to touch it, and said as much, I pressed him though and ask why?
He said the car would take too much time to fix & he would have to charge me
time and a half for his labor.  Ok, says I, how many hours?  100 says
Harold.  So lets work this out, it is going to take him two and a half man
weeks to cut and weld two sail panels and rear deck piece.  What the hell is
he using to cut the steel with, a nail file?  Very disappointed but
undeterred I go to third body shop.  Rather than waste the estimators time I
go to the desk and state bluntly.  "I have a car that two other body shops
don't want to touch.  Would you be interested?"  "No." just as bluntly.

Now all of today's disappointment underscores a distressing trend I have
noticed.  For many years now there has been a tendency for auto repair to be
less about repairing and more about replacing.  I have lost count of how
many people in this news group have replaced their entire alternator rather
than spend the extra time to repair it with the simple replacement of a
$4.00 set of brushes, the same is true for power window motors, electronic
engine sensors or any other damm thing that needs fixing, replace rather
than repair.  What I hadn't realized until today that this lethargy had
worked its way into the body shop as well.  Gone are the days when skilled
body men would use hammer and rasp to pound out the dents and smooth the
paint.  Replaced by a new generation of kids whose idea of work doesn't
include the learning of any skill, the loss of any sweat nor the application
of much brain power.  I can't really see how any nation can long survive if
the new generation of workers idea of work is to always take the path of
least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty.  As
for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
Kathy and Erich Coiner - 12 Aug 2005 01:51 GMT
You need to find the right kind of body shop.  They all specialize in
different things.
The Collision repair guys won't touch your project.

Find out where the hot rod crowd is getting work done.  That will be a place
that knows how to work with rusty metal.  But it won't be cheap.

Erich

> You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
> Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty.  As
> for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
cprice@here.com - 12 Aug 2005 03:54 GMT
    For the kind of money you are talking about you could buy your own mig
and hire a freelancer to come and work in your shop. I agree with the
'find out where the local rodders are getting their work done'. Even
more, some of those guys will do projects on the side to make some extra
cash.

> You need to find the right kind of body shop.  They all specialize in
> different things.
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>
>>for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
SVTKate - 12 Aug 2005 11:42 GMT
: For the kind of money you are talking about you could buy your own mig
: and hire a freelancer to come and work in your shop. I agree with the
: 'find out where the local rodders are getting their work done'. Even
: more, some of those guys will do projects on the side to make some extra
: cash.

Yeabut -
The guy who does it "on the side" also had a full time job, a family, his
own honey-do list and a life.
Not only are you talking money, but TIME. The "on the side guy" will have
your car for a year.

And the guy that works out of his garage, just ask ol Spike how THAT one
goes.

I agree, there has GOT to be someone who does restorations near you.
Maaco would hav just filled the holes with filler anyway. The only reason
they don't touch is is that they cannot warranty it and they know you will
be back.
Cancer rust is damn frustrating to repair and it invilves allot of cutting
and replacing of sheet metal. These days, they use panels to replace because
it's a better repair for people that want their car "like new again"

Why not turn it into a demolition derby car and let it go out with a bang?

Kate
WindsorFox[SS] - 12 Aug 2005 06:06 GMT
> You need to find the right kind of body shop.  They all specialize in
> different things.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Erich

    Or even goto a welder/sheet metal fabricator rather than a body guy.

Signature

"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony...
clueless gets you committed..."  -  JG

Big Al - 12 Aug 2005 07:59 GMT
> You need to find the right kind of body shop.  They all specialize in
> different things.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Erich

For grins, call:

Touch Of Class Auto Repair
17 Kirkland Rd
Silver City,  NM
(505) 388-1105

Ask for Ronnie and see what he says.

I'm guessing you need to find someone like my neighbor who does this stuff
out of love.

Al in Tucson.
Ken Zwyers - 12 Aug 2005 05:48 GMT
Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.  When is
the last time anyone had their TV repaired?  It costs less to get a new one
than to get it fixed.

> You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
> Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty.  As
> for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
SVTKate - 12 Aug 2005 11:53 GMT
: Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.  When is
: the last time anyone had their TV repaired?  It costs less to get a new one
: than to get it fixed.

I had a stereo repaired several years ago, cost half as much to have it
fixed as to replace it.
Later I learned that all the guy had to do was to remove the outer cover and
clean the dang eye on the CD player. Really torqued me, at $125.

The other major thing I see, since I AM the type to fix things, is the
unavailability of parts.

In the case of this car, the pieces that have rotted sound like they also
hold windows. Fabricating sheet metal to fit that space and still  be strong
is damn near impossible for the common guy, There are complex curves and
angles that have got to be right. The investment in equipment (presses and
welders) alone would be phenominal, just so you could get the right curves
and angles for the windows to mount on without popping them.

As for other things, like alternators.
Where I lve, you can't find simple food items, like a Tri Tip. Imagine if I
tried to find brushes for an alternator.
We drove 60 miles the other day (just abouve Mississippi) to a wrecking yard
for a damn tail light for our pickup. (hubs bumped a pole) As it turned out,
several things decided to take a dump on the truck last week, so we got a
lock actuator, the lens and a vacuum pump. $100 for the lot.

There is NOTHING here that you can get without it being a hassle. When you
call wrecking yards, they all send you to the dealership and have what
appears to be no central locator.

HOW ABOUT - find one at a wrecking yard that is NOT rusted, and have them
cut the sections you need. Common practise and then you could get a shop to
fix it for you.
It would be a search, but you might find soemthing. Prolly one that did not
have vinyl.

Kate
Backyard Mechanic - 12 Aug 2005 12:59 GMT
It's sad but true... but what you DONT mention is that new 27" TV costs
much less in numbers, let alone % of income  than the one you want to
fix.  And probably has a better picture.

Kate:  I guarantee NAPA has the parts... maybe not in your area, but in
their distribution chain...and what some people dont think of is the guys
who supply the auto repair 'garages'... sure's he!! aint autozone!

Ken: When I embarked on my car supplier role for my four boys, I
determined that I couldnt afford to keep buying $1500 Fox 2.3's at the
rate they were going through them {EVEN SAVING THEIR LIVES OR FROM
SERIOUS INJURY IN THE BARGAIN.}

And later, giving them a hand up on driving something exotic like
Xr4ti's.

So that was when I invested in a couple simple tools.

a 4 inch angle grinder
and
a gas wire welder

Those were the core but, of course, I had to put out a lot in specialty
tools from Eastwood.  Oh, if I'd only been smarter!  I never used ANY of
them past the first disappointment!

But I learned a lot and was able to graft rear quarters for the Merkurs,
and an SVO hood scoop onto an 88 hood before handing them off to the
"Pro's" for finishing. {but that's a different story}`

Like Kate says, what you want to do is search for the unrusted piece...
even paying shipping.  Learn how to weld on the scraps.  Make SURE to
engineer , measure and measure again before you make that first cut.

>: Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.
>: When is the last time anyone had their TV repaired?  It costs less to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The other major thing I see, since I AM the type to fix things, is the
> unavailability of parts.

> As for other things, like alternators.
> Where I lve, you can't find simple food items, like a Tri Tip. Imagine
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Kate
Me - 12 Aug 2005 18:59 GMT
It's called "Greed" and it permeates every facet of life. I had a similar
experience with an RCA TV. (Buy RCA, American made quality) Had to have the
pins in the power supply re-soldered. (A common problem) The guy I bought it
from is also a tech and I  usually have him work on my stuff, but he was
unavailable. I took it to a shop and they charged me $350.00. When I finally
made contact with my friend, he told me it was a common problem and a 1/2
hour job. The shop ripped me off big time. The TV lasted less than another
year. When it went out, I s**t canned it and bought a Sony.
Anymore, it's not what is fair and reasonable, it's what is the maximum I
can get away with charging. Body and fender work in no different. The last
place you want to take it is to a collision repair specialist. Most of these
shops are too busy ripping off insurance companies, which in turn, pass the
rip-off to the clients (Us) in the form of higher rates.

> : Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.  When
> is
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Kate
tom - 12 Aug 2005 20:20 GMT
Clarification...RCA isn't a U.S. corporation (French...Thomson Electronics)
and the TV certainly wasn't made in the U.S...probably S. Korea, Taiwan or
mainland China.

p.s. I am familiar with the PS issue with these sets...the same thing
happened with my ProScan 27" set, although I only paid $90 for repairs.

> It's called "Greed" and it permeates every facet of life. I had a similar
> experience with an RCA TV. (Buy RCA, American made quality) Had to have
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>>
>> Kate
SVTKate - 13 Aug 2005 03:23 GMT
: It's called "Greed" and it permeates every facet of life. I had a similar
: experience with an RCA TV. (Buy RCA, American made quality) Had to have the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
: shops are too busy ripping off insurance companies, which in turn, pass the
: rip-off to the clients (Us) in the form of higher rates.

You are WAY off base on that last note.

Shops don't rip off the insurance comapanies.
The insurance companies have the shops by the balls.
A car comes in, the shop estimator writes it up, and then the insurance
adjuster comes in and looks at it, he does his own estimate and the job is
done according to THAT.
If there is additional work, it is supplimented to the insurance company,
only done on approval and often only after a reinspect.

It's people who drive around uninsured, who are reckless and/or commit
insurance fraud that are the reason we are paying higher rates.

Kate
98 Cobra Drop Top
driftin_drifter@hotmail.com - 13 Aug 2005 14:19 GMT
May I jump in?  Thanks...

I must disagree with some of what you are saying. A couple of years
ago, my Dad (Senior Citizen) wrecked his car. We went through the
estimate process and sent it to the repair shop. The car was not
repaired as described in the estimate. It was chopped and bondo. Then
they held the car for a week and called my Dad at 4:30 on a Friday
afternoon. Told him he needed to pick up his car by 5:00. He hurried
down and picked up the car not inspecting it very well because they
kept telling him they had to close. When I complained to the insurance
about it, they said they didn't care how it was repaired as long as
they had a signature on the release form.

The shops work right along with the insurance companies to get their
"direct repair" status.

Mel
1969 Mach 1

>You are WAY off base on that last note.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Kate
>98 Cobra Drop Top
SVTKate - 13 Aug 2005 14:50 GMT
: May I jump in?  Thanks...
:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
: Mel
: 1969 Mach 1

Uh huh...
so you think that ALL shops should be judged poorly because of one bad one?
You choose to judge them ALL by this standard? If you get a bad haircut are
all barbers  lousy?
Who researched the shop before the car was taken in?

Did YOU  let them do this to your dad or did you take matters up with the
BBB and the insurance company and have the problem resolved? His insurance
company should have gone to bat for him, so should have YOU if he couldn't
do it himself. . If he was a claimant rather than an insured, it's tougher
because once that check is signed, it's pretty much a done deal. BUT you can
still raise the roof and get it taken care of.

I firmly believe that the greater percentage of shops are legit, and do not
want the liability of a poor repair. They don't make a dime on re-dos.
If you get a bad shop, it's as much shame on YOU as the shop because you
should have enough sense to stay on top of things, do your homework and be
responsible enough to keep an eye on things as they progress.

As far as taking advantage of a senior citizen... bull.
Older folks have lived long enough to have the experience that we can only
dream of. The big mistake they make is in trusting people like they could in
the old days, but c'mon, older folks have seen enough in life that they
SHOULD be able to tell if something is wrong right from the beginning..

I worked in the industry a long time. I believe that I can speak from
experience having been on both sides of the desk (multiple accidents by kids
and family members) and on the shop side for many years.
Now would be a good place to rant - but I won't.

Kate

: >You are WAY off base on that last note.
: >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
: >Kate
: >98 Cobra Drop Top
David M - 13 Aug 2005 16:20 GMT
> : It's called "Greed" and it permeates every facet of life. I had a similar
> : experience with an RCA TV. (Buy RCA, American made quality) Had to have

RCA TV's have not been made in the US for a very very long time.
The brand is owned by Thomson, a French company.

Signature

David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 15 days 12:34

elaich - 13 Aug 2005 20:53 GMT
> Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.
> When is the last time anyone had their TV repaired?  It costs less to
> get a new one than to get it fixed.

Repairing a TV used to mean replacing a tube. Now it means replacing an
entire circuit board. Cheaper to throw the TV away.
SVTKate - 13 Aug 2005 23:40 GMT
: > Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.
: > When is the last time anyone had their TV repaired?  It costs less to
: > get a new one than to get it fixed.
:
: Repairing a TV used to mean replacing a tube. Now it means replacing an
: entire circuit board. Cheaper to throw the TV away.

Hell, ya can't even do THAT these days, they won't let you put them in the
dump.
Mike - 14 Aug 2005 00:28 GMT
Contact Rickabaughs Auto Shop, they restore classic cars and are the local
Porsche club's shop pf preference.  Ask for Loren 719-633-0850
I've used him and recommend him highly.  He's located in Colorado Springs

Mike

> You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
> Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> As
> for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
Jim Warman - 14 Aug 2005 17:58 GMT
Ummmm, what you are asking takes talent..... talent don't come cheap. Anyone
can be a hack but the good guys know who they are, and they will charge
accordingly.

While you view this resto as a labour of love, whomever you hire will view
this project as a way to feed his family. The good guys will want to do it
their way... this is how they got to be "good guys".

Will I fix your car? Yep.... Will it be good? Yep.... Will I risk my
reputation by trying to save you a few bucks? Nope.... It's my way.... if
you don't like the price....
ironrod - 15 Aug 2005 21:19 GMT
The point is the shops don't want to touch it at any price.  I understand
that quality costs, I also understand that high cost doesn't guarantee
quality, and the people I spoke to would not guarantee their work.  The only
reason I got any numbers at all was when I pressed the issue.  These people
flat do not want to touch this vehicle. Period.

> Ummmm, what you are asking takes talent..... talent don't come cheap. Anyone
> can be a hack but the good guys know who they are, and they will charge
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> reputation by trying to save you a few bucks? Nope.... It's my way.... if
> you don't like the price....
 
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