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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / October 2005

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Biofuels = propaganda?

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Rich - 08 Oct 2005 00:52 GMT
I received this response from the Can. Gov't regarding ethanol.
Interesting thing is, I can see the over-production of corn in
set fields depleting the soil if asked to be a substitute for oil.

Mr. Richard Anderson

michaelanderson4@sympatico.ca

       

Dear Mr. Anderson:

Thank you for your email regarding the energy balance of producing and
using fuel ethanol.

There is a robust literature and science on this issue. It should be
noted that Pimentel is almost unique in his criticism of biofuels –
virtually all other commentators and scientists who have examined the
issue conclude that there is a positive energy balance relating to the
production and use of biofuels.

The elements contributing to the life cycle of producing and using
fuel ethanol have improved over time, as have the energy efficiency of
many technologies. With respect to the energy balances relating to
fuel ethanol, I refer you to the definitive study that was conducted
by the United States Department of Agriculture in 2002 entitled “The
Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol, An Update.” This document can be found
on the USDA website by typing the name of the report in the search
box.

Although the report notes that there is a range of values for all
elements of a life cycle analysis for any product, it concludes that
the value of 1.34 is reasonable and supportable for corn-based fuel
ethanol given the technologies available in the first half of this
decade. This means that a litre of corn-based fuel ethanol provides
1.34 times as much energy as was required to manufacture it. Other
feedstocks generate different energy balances. For example wheat-based
ethanol has a slightly lower energy balance, while sugar cane-based
fuel ethanol has a significantly higher energy balance.  

I trust this information is of assistance to you. Again, thank you for
writing and bringing this report to my attention.

Sincerely,

Andy Mitchell

Martine Gervais

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Ministerial Correspondence and
Records Office

930 Carling Ave. Sir John Carling Building, Agriculture et
Agroalimentaire Canada

Section de la correspondance et des dossiers ministériels

930 avenue Carling, Édiffice Sir John Carling,

Tel: 613-759-1021 Fax/Télécopieur : 613-759-1081

Ottawa, Ontario

K1A 0C7

gervaisma@agr.gc.ca
Bob Willard - 08 Oct 2005 18:20 GMT
> I received this response from the Can. Gov't regarding ethanol.
> Interesting thing is, I can see the over-production of corn in
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> gervaisma@agr.gc.ca

The U.S. Dept. of Agribusiness is not exactly unbiased, since it is
charged with promoting Agribusiness.  As the USDA.gov website says,
"USDA remains committed to helping America's farmers and ranchers."
Signature

Cheers, Bob

RT - 08 Oct 2005 20:06 GMT
If it would deplete the soil, don't you think we would run out of food
by now ? I think (but I'm no farmer) that there are many ways to keep
the soil producing by alternating types of crop, using fertilizers,
etc.

I've always wondered what that number was. It still seems too low as a
substitute for oil. I wonder how much farm land it would take to
replace ALL oil generated today by growing alternatives ?

>> I received this response from the Can. Gov't regarding ethanol.
>> Interesting thing is, I can see the over-production of corn in
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>charged with promoting Agribusiness.  As the USDA.gov website says,
>"USDA remains committed to helping America's farmers and ranchers."
Ritz - 08 Oct 2005 23:10 GMT
Ethanol is a pretty poor solution, but biodiesel would be rather easy to
implement, requires zero modifications to existing diesel engines, burns
cleaner than "real" diesel and is *almost* cost effective now.  One of
the benefits is that fuel spills become biodegradable.  One of the
drawbacks is that you can't use pure biodiesel in cold winters as it
becomes too thick.

Cheers,

> If it would deplete the soil, don't you think we would run out of food
> by now ? I think (but I'm no farmer) that there are many ways to keep
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>>Interesting thing is, I can see the over-production of corn in
>>>set fields depleting the soil if asked to be a substitute for oil.
RT - 11 Oct 2005 01:30 GMT
>Ethanol is a pretty poor solution, but biodiesel would be rather easy to
>implement, requires zero modifications to existing diesel engines, burns
>cleaner than "real" diesel and is *almost* cost effective now.  One of
>the benefits is that fuel spills become biodegradable.  One of the
>drawbacks is that you can't use pure biodiesel in cold winters as it
>becomes too thick.

But isn't the highest rating of biodiesel still 'only'  20% ???
(meaning 20% is biodiesel, 80% is regular diesel)
Ritz - 11 Oct 2005 03:02 GMT
>>Ethanol is a pretty poor solution, but biodiesel would be rather easy to
>>implement, requires zero modifications to existing diesel engines, burns
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> But isn't the highest rating of biodiesel still 'only'  20% ???
> (meaning 20% is biodiesel, 80% is regular diesel)

I don't know.  It's not available in my area.  But given a temperate
climate, you can burn 100% biodiesel in any diesel engine without
modifications to the engine.
Bob Willard - 08 Oct 2005 23:22 GMT
> If it would deplete the soil, don't you think we would run out of food
> by now ? I think (but I'm no farmer) that there are many ways to keep
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> substitute for oil. I wonder how much farm land it would take to
> replace ALL oil generated today by growing alternatives ?

Consider these two alternatives:

1. Turn PetroOil into gas.

2. Turn PetroOil into fertilizer, turn fertilizer into corn, turn corn
   into CornOil, turn CornOil into Ethanol, mix Ethanol with normal gas.

While (2) is emotionally appealing to some, (1) is cheaper unless massive
government handouts counterbalance the real costs.  Indeed, federal (and,
in some cases, state) subsidies are used to make Ethanol/gas mixtures
appear at the pumps.  Meanwhile, elected (and appointed) officials brag about
this great way of spending your tax $s.  Arrrgh.

Ethanol may make economic sense someday, but certainly not today.
Signature

Cheers, Bob

dwight - 08 Oct 2005 23:48 GMT
> If it would deplete the soil, don't you think we would run out of food
> by now ? I think (but I'm no farmer) that there are many ways to keep
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> substitute for oil. I wonder how much farm land it would take to
> replace ALL oil generated today by growing alternatives ?

And, while we could handle a lot of the production during the summer months,
we'd be making millionaires in the southern hemisphere during the winter.

Winter corn... I should invest in some property in Argentina...

dwight
Rich - 09 Oct 2005 18:38 GMT
>If it would deplete the soil, don't you think we would run out of food
>by now ? I think (but I'm no farmer) that there are many ways to keep
>the soil producing by alternating types of crop, using fertilizers,
>etc.

But they only need corn.  They'll have to let the fields go fallow
for some period of time.  But it could be interesting.  A bad harvest
could see price spikes just like oil!  Except this time we'll
(Americans) be looking at $5-$7/gal instead of $2.50-$3.50.
-Rich


 
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