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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / October 2005

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whats with the grips about gas prices?

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walt peifer - 27 Oct 2005 13:49 GMT
I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or so, but
already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of  florida. Paid
$2.599 for regular yesterday. This morning same station had rolled back to
$2.549. if you inflation adjust prices going back to the early 90's gas
should be around $3.75 now if it kept pace with other items (gallon of milk
is now $3.99 at local walmart).
Our real complaint should be with the auto makers. With close to 20 years of
computer evolution in autos as well as head design, newer lighter materials,
fuel economy should be much higher. When I was in sales and putting on over
150 miles per day, my 65 mustang 289 2-V automatic averaged 21mpg. A recent
article in "mustang monthy" showed that on a pony ride a father and son team
"raced" from home to a car show with a eye on fuel economy. late model GT
EFI with 5 speed  vs 65 4-V with 4 speed the 65 car trounced the late model
as far as mpg.
Look at the latest gen of SUV's, not getting any better mileage than a early
70's suburaban running a 350 carb engine with a puny little 3 speed
automatic. you'd think that with 4,5 or even 6 speed auto's and the computer
controls we should get substantialy better mileage with out having to
sacrifice reasonable performance and interior room.
Backyard Mechanic - 27 Oct 2005 13:57 GMT
Uh... sorry... in the REAL world of daily driving, economy is Far better
in the newer cars of same weight and HP.  you point out a few examples
but dont source them... and I VERY much doubt the "trounced" story.

IOW: Bullshit!

> I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or
> so, but already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the computer controls we should get substantialy better mileage with
> out having to sacrifice reasonable performance and interior room.
walt peifer - 27 Oct 2005 16:03 GMT
> Uh... sorry... in the REAL world of daily driving, economy is Far better
> in the newer cars of same weight and HP.  you point out a few examples
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>> the computer controls we should get substantialy better mileage with
>> out having to sacrifice reasonable performance and interior room.

THE FACTS: ALL OF WHCIH ARE AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET TODAY!!
year        engine         city        hwy     avg
1965    289 2v          15         22        18
1975    302 2-v                                  15 (combined figure only
available)
1985    302 4-v        16         24         19
1995    4.6 ltr            17        24         19
2005    4.5                18        23         20

so my point is still valid, fuel economy has not noticable improved in over
40 years!!
i'll concede the drivabilty issue's but if we compare bases v-8's not gt or
others and
modern tires on the early cars and automatic transmissions. The overall
perfromance
difference is not that impressive. The big improvement has been in reduced
emmisions of photo-chemcials reducing air polution (not a bad thing)
Backyard Mechanic - 27 Oct 2005 16:35 GMT
AGAIN...

Since I was around when those mileage figures were first published, I
have seen a sea-change.  Even BEFORE then... when we were amazed that a
57 Chev SW made a trip from Ohio to Fla and got 19 freeway MPG.

The point being that I was NEVER able to approach published figures in my
daily driving, esp on highway expectations.

NOW I have no trouble doing so...

I also look back to where I read that a standard beetle could get 28 mpg
or even higher... but in my ownership of two of them, I NEVER got more
than 21 mpg.  No matter HOW well I tuned them.

So let's say I have a lead foot... fair enough.  But NOW I dont have a
single car that gets less than 20 city.. all v-6 true enough.  but all
with the same relative boot in the butt as my earlier cars.

Moreover.. the ratings for pre-FI cars of 70 and 80 period mean NOTHING
as they were encumbered by same old fuel technology PLUS emissions.

And WHERE ARE YOUR INTERNET LINKS???!!!!!!

Let's see how much you really know, BTW... when driven for economy...
same engine and car... which gets better mileage, on the whole, a 2v or a
4v?

"walt peifer" <lensman@tampabay.rr.com> wrote

>> IOW: Bullshit!

> THE FACTS: ALL OF WHCIH ARE AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET TODAY!!
> year        engine         city        hwy     avg
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> reduced emmisions of photo-chemcials reducing air polution (not a bad
> thing)
Spike - 27 Oct 2005 18:48 GMT
>I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or so, but
>already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of  florida. Paid
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>controls we should get substantialy better mileage with out having to
>sacrifice reasonable performance and interior room.

I have a subscription. The only article I recall was written by the
boys from Mustangs Plus about a trip they made in two Mustangs to a
car show... as I recall, one was a 65 and one was a 66. One with EFI
and a T5, the other a 4V with (I think) a C4. As I recall, there was
even mention that the 4V ran out of gas and the EFI had to go get
some, so the drove the 4V car added miles to equal the EFI's round
trip to get gas. The point of the article was conversion to EFI for
classic Mustangs, and it just happens that Mustangs Plus carries the
parts necessary for this conversion. The end result was that the EFI
beat the 4V. IF this is the article you cite, you need to go back and
read it again. If it is a different article, please provide the issue
date, article title, and page number so I can read it for myself...
Signature

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg

trainfan1 - 27 Oct 2005 20:26 GMT
> I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or so, but
> already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of  florida. Paid
> $2.599 for regular yesterday. This morning same station had rolled back to
> $2.549.

Manchester & Shortsville, NY (went through there this week on business)
even in HIGHLY taxed NY state - $2.629 / $2.529 w/ car wash.  Both are
Mobil stations.

> if you inflation adjust prices going back to the early 90's gas
> should be around $3.75 now if it kept pace with other items (gallon of milk
> is now $3.99 at local walmart).

You are getting soaked.  $1.99 all over upstate NY for a gallon of milk.
 Using that analogy, gas should be $1.599.

> Our real complaint should be with the auto makers. With close to 20 years of
> computer evolution in autos as well as head design, newer lighter materials,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> EFI with 5 speed  vs 65 4-V with 4 speed the 65 car trounced the late model
> as far as mpg.

Source? Figures? Is 2% difference a "trouncing"?

> Look at the latest gen of SUV's, not getting any better mileage than a early
> 70's suburaban running a 350 carb engine with a puny little 3 speed
> automatic. you'd think that with 4,5 or even 6 speed auto's and the computer
> controls we should get substantialy better mileage with out having to
> sacrifice reasonable performance and interior room.

You forgot about the exponential reduction in emissions since then.  It
costs!

Rob
Spike - 27 Oct 2005 22:23 GMT
>> I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or so, but
>> already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of  florida. Paid
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>Rob
Maybe they'll bring back steam.....  Could go nuclear but every time
there was an accident, they'd have to build a detour around the area
for the next 1000 years... Of  course, in time, there'd be nowhere
left to go, and THAT would save gas...
Signature

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg

John - 27 Oct 2005 22:49 GMT
$2.389/gal. in Midland, MI at 5 p.m. today

Signature

John
'69 Mach 1 390 Toploader Acapulco Blue
ThunderSnake #59

Martin - 28 Oct 2005 14:09 GMT
$2.42 for 87 octane in Buzzards Bay, Massachusetts.
Martin
2002 GT 5spd
walt peifer - 28 Oct 2005 14:42 GMT
>I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or so,
>but already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of  florida.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> computer controls we should get substantialy better mileage with out
> having to sacrifice reasonable performance and interior room.
My original point still stands. (see below for documentation )we should have
had bigger increases in gas mileage over 40 plus years. I conceded the
points about emmissions and drivablity in my other posts.

However lets look at emmissions briefly. If there is a substantal gain in
MPG then emmission per mile driven would go down. (i.e. 100 mile trip at 10
miles per gallon is 10 gallons of fuel burned, 100 mile trip at 50 MPG is 2
gallons of fuel burned, as more americans are driving more mile per years an
increase in fuel economy would reduce emmissions)
oh by the way read the posting below or go direct to the web link

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&rssid=9851

Every year since 1999, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has
ranked Ford cars, truck and SUVs as having the worst overall fuel economy of
any American automaker. A recent report from the Union of Concerned
Scientists ranks Ford as having "the absolute worst heat-trapping gas
emissions performance of all the Big Six automakers." From subcompacts to
SUVs, Ford's current line up gets fewer miles per gallon on average than the
Model-T did over 80 years ago. According to the EPA's 2006 Fuel Economy
Guide, three Ford models are among the eight listed as having the "lowest
fuel economy among popular 2006 vehicles."

http://www.globalexchange.org/war_peace_democracy/oil/864.html

In the 2002 model year, the company's sport utility vehicles were 8.4
percent more efficient than the vehicles the company made in the 2000 model
year. But the S.U.V.'s produced this year are only 5.2 percent more
efficient than those made in the 2000 model year, according to the company's
corporate citizenship report.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/fetrends/420r05001.pdf

After a decline from 22.1 mpg in 1988 to 21.0 mpg in 1994, fuel economy has
beenrelatively constant for a decade. The average fuel economy for all model
year 2005 light-duty vehicles is estimated to be 21.0 mpg, the same value as
achieved in 1994 and thehighest since 1996, but five percent lower than the
peak value achieved in 1987-88.Average model year 2005 fuel economy is 24.7
mpg for cars and 18.2 mpg for light trucks.

Since 1975, the fuel economy of the combined car and light truck fleet has
moved through several phases: (1) a rapid increase from 1975 to the
mid-1980s, (2) a slow increase extending into the late 1980s, (3) a decline
from the peak in the late 1980s until the mid-1990s, and (4) since then a
period of relatively constant overall fleet fuel economy. Viewing new cars
and trucks separately, since 1996, the three-year moving average fuel
economy for cars has ranged from 24.2 to 24.7 mpg, while that for trucks has
ranged from 17.6 to 18.0 mpg, and that for all light-duty vehicles from 20.7
to 21.1 mpg.
Backyard Mechanic - 28 Oct 2005 16:01 GMT
> From subcompacts to
> SUVs, Ford's current line up gets fewer miles per gallon on average
> than the Model-T did over 80 years ago.

Änyone who thinks the above is germane loses all credibility.

And the same goes for most of your links
walt peifer - 28 Oct 2005 17:15 GMT
>> From subcompacts to
>> SUVs, Ford's current line up gets fewer miles per gallon on average
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And the same goes for most of your links

Read the original post....it is exactly germane to the conceptin the body of
said post. (perhaps your gripe is with the title of the post?) Vehicle
manufactures and the government need to do more to increase fuel economy.

Do current and projected safety and emmissions standards, prevent or slow
the increase in fuel economy?Does the marketing concept of the major vehicle
makers urge or influence the public to buy less fuel efficent vehicles? My
original concept stated differently is that the fuel efficiency in terms of
miles per gallon (not tons per mile, or comfort per mile) has been stagnant
for 40 years. a mid sized sedan of the 60's has comparable MPG to a mid
sized sedan of today. I've already conceded all other points about
drivabilty, safety, emmissions and comfort.
Backyard Mechanic - 28 Oct 2005 18:20 GMT
>>> From subcompacts to
>>> SUVs, Ford's current line up gets fewer miles per gallon on average
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Read the original post....it is exactly germane to the conceptin the
> body of said post.

uh..NO... unless you advocate changing the speed limit to 35 mph or so...
and then we can gear all cars the same as a model t
Or maybe that T used the long-lost 85 mpg carburetor

plus it would be interesting to refine a few barrels to the same method
used 80 years ago and compare the heat/energy output of a gallon then to
a gallon of current pump gas.

I saw one of your type advocates on local news, demonstrate how just
increasing speed 5 mph loses 10% mpg... problem was, he did it on a short
closed course with lots of twisties, with a Taurus SW.

Dumbass news people didnt think to ask him about the effect of the tire
squeal on mileage....

"Use new pellet technology and bring back the NUKE!!!"
Backyard Mechanic - 28 Oct 2005 18:30 GMT
Actually.. it just occurs to me that you dont really get my drift, at
all....

It has always been possible to tune a car to get max efficiency... and
you can do that with a carburetor, too. It's very difficult to keep a car
that well tuned.

The difference between the OLD cars and the NEW cars is that the average
driver almost NEVER saw the stickered mileage ratings in real life.
I always thought it was a joke.  But in the LAST ten years, with
different "real criteria' changed, almost everyone gets that posted
highway mileage under the tested criteria.

If you think there's some kind of 'cabal' at work... how about the Tire
industry/auto mfr cabal?

check the costs of passenger car tires today per 100k miles against that
of 40 years ago.

No...the car industry has no incentive to keep mileage low.  And
mandatory legislation past single digit improvements aint gonna help.
KJ.Kate - 29 Oct 2005 14:27 GMT
: >> From subcompacts to
: >> SUVs, Ford's current line up gets fewer miles per gallon on average
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
: sized sedan of today. I've already conceded all other points about
: drivabilty, safety, emmissions and comfort.

It's real easy to point fingers walt, but what have YOU done to make a
difference?

KJK
2O|||||||O5 Liberty
Backyard Mechanic - 29 Oct 2005 14:37 GMT
> "walt peifer" <lensman@tampabay.rr.com> wrote  My original concept
stated differently is that the fuel
>: efficiency in terms
> of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's real easy to point fingers walt, but what have YOU done to make a
> difference?

Why.. Kate!  He's launched this crusade!

Never mind his talking points, like the above, are pure BS!

I dunno how freakin' old Walt is... but I had one of those mid-sized
cars, new, in the sixties and the supposition that the mileage hasnt
improved is pure horse hockey!

I got 12 mpg general and 16 on a trip... and it wasnt a muscle car
either.
Ritz - 29 Oct 2005 15:24 GMT
> Never mind his talking points, like the above, are pure BS!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I got 12 mpg general and 16 on a trip... and it wasnt a muscle car
> either.

When I was a lot younger, for a short while I had an early 70's Chevy
Caprice w/400 4-barrel.  Around town, it would get 10-15mpg
(fortunately, gas was pretty cheap).  It had that classic "woof" when
you punched the gas and opened the secondaries while the tires lit up.
8-)  Occasionally, my buddies and I would take it on a long highway run
and at a steady 75mph, it would actually get 20-25mpg.  And that was
with a couple passengers and a trunk full of luggage, skis, and a barrel
of beer.  8-)

Cheers,
Hairy - 29 Oct 2005 16:48 GMT
> > Never mind his talking points, like the above, are pure BS!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Cheers,

In '74 I bought a new Caprice Classic convertible. Loved that car, but
mileage really sucked. Best I could get was 11mpg until put duals on it and
then it got 13mpg, tops. It was also a 400 4bbl.
It was white w/white top, white seats, black dash and red carpeting. Also
had wire wheel covers. They still made interesting cars, back then :).

Dave
Spike - 28 Oct 2005 19:09 GMT
>>I know that gas has gotten more expensive over that past 6 months or so,
>>but already prices are rolling back here on the west coast of  florida.
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>ranged from 17.6 to 18.0 mpg, and that for all light-duty vehicles from 20.7
>to 21.1 mpg.

Isn't this all a bit like comparing apples and corn?

Model T's for their day were quite good, but no way could the
tolerances of today be attained, nor could the performance of today be
seen then... It was an era where there were essentially no roads for
the few autos there were to use them.

All in all, a totally different world.

Leap ahead to the 40s when gas was rationed along with all other
commodities for the war effort, when priority was in another world.

Then the late 40s and 50s. Very heavy machines but with big power and
resistively cheap gas, in an era of celebration of the end of all the
rationing, and other things that go with a post war period.

The late 60s and early 70s when thoughts were about Vietnam, not mpg.

The 70s when the great gas crunch hit home is when there was any real
thought about mpg. But, as is human nature, as soon as it eased off,
and people accepted the increased prices, the importance of fuel
economy faded (not away but to a lessor priority).

The 80s and 90s carried the economic boom which normally follows a
post war period; with all the money made in things like dot coms; when
who cared what gas cost because everyone was rich (or so it was
thought in some circles). The era of the Hummers and SUVs, bought by a
younger generation which had never personally experienced hard times.
A generation which seemed to view their world as a life of never
ending lavish luxury, with money flowing like water to be squandered.
Why should auto makers worry about mpg when they have an audience who
will pay the price, no matter how high it goes.

Then the dot com bust and so many people suddenly unemployed, and life
savings gone, and much reason to worry about the cost of gas. Now
we're in another crunch, compounded by natural disasters. Thoughts
again turn to fuel costs and economizing fuel use.

What will happen next? We will once again adapt to the increased cost,
and our collective minds will focus elsewhere. Then when things get
tight again, we'll think about why we have to pay so much for fuel,
and why our vehicles get such poor mileage.

There are far too many differences in the technologies, the mind sets,
and other factors, to make blanket assumptions about then and now.

Meanwhile, one oil company alone made more in profits than the 5 most
popular product companies (including Microsoft software, the iPod,
etc) put together according to a report I heard yesterday. Is that
money going to build new refineries? Find new reserves? Develop new
energy sources? Improve on old ones?

People are going to gripe about something. When they stop, that's the
time to really worry about what is coming....  
Signature

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg


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