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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / December 2005Are enviro-nuts EVER satisfied??
Catalytic converters: source of pollution? Massachusetts scientists say toxic metals from automotive catalytic converters have been detected for the first time in U.S. urban air. The research was conducted by Swedish scientists working in collaboration with researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. The scientists found high concentrations of platinum, palladium, rhodium and osmium in air over the Boston metropolitan area. Although the particles are not yet considered a serious health risk, evidence suggests they potentially could pose a future danger as worldwide car sales increase from an estimated 50 million in 2000 to more than 140 million in 2050. Finding ways to "stabilize" those metal particles within the converters "should be a priority to limit their potential impact," says lead researcher Sebastien Rauch of Chalmers University of Technology in Goteborg, Sweden. Scientists have also detected elevated concentrations of the elements in Europe, Japan, Australia, Ghana, China and Greenland. Catalytic converters reduce emissions of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides and other pollutants. The study is to appear in the Dec. 15 issue of the American Chemical Society's journal, Environmental Science and Technology. Copyright 2005 by United Press International >Catalytic converters: source of pollution? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Copyright 2005 by United Press International Old news. Not much different than the special low emissions fuel developed for California, which turned out to damage engines and release unexpected pollutants. And no, the enviros are never satisfied. Just look at many of the issues they support... -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg At some point I expect one of these groups to do a study on human output of carbon dioxide and biological waste with a plan for population reduction. But the avian influenz HN51, ebola, will take care of THAT problem But wait? Another reason not to worry about this study. Aren't we going to run out of oil by 2050, and costal cities like Boston dissapear into the ocean due to global warming, washing away all of the platinum, palladium etc from the streets of Beantown? Oh no! We're doomed! > Catalytic converters: source of pollution? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Copyright 2005 by United Press International >At some point I expect one of these groups to do a study on human output >of carbon dioxide and biological waste with a plan for population [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >> Copyright 2005 by United Press International While there is some need to be watchdogs on the environment, sooner or later the enviros will figure out that the best way to fix things is do away with humans... then they'll start killing themselves off "to save the earth". After they are gone, it may be a much nicer place. Given half a chance, the earth repairs itself... whether by war, or disease, or natural catastrophe... -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg : While there is some need to be watchdogs on the environment, sooner or : later the enviros will figure out that the best way to fix things is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : Given half a chance, the earth repairs itself... whether by war, or : disease, or natural catastrophe... Yep, she does. and we may not like the way she does it. KJK Heavy metals are pollutants.... you sound surprised. I didn't make it past grade 8 and I knew that heavy metals were considered carcinogenic. I'm not sure what qualifies someone as an "enviro-nut", though. 10 years or more ago, I had made remarks that, even though we had found new methods and materials, we shouldn't get lax in our attitudes... history has shown that the excesses of consumers will ALWAYS overload ntures ability to deal with common compounds. We slopped R-12 around with abandon.... AC systems, hair spray and whipped cream propellant and God knows what else. Now, many are guilty of slopping R-134a around like it was water.... the same R-134a that was originally to be a "stop gap" safer replacement for R-12. How long before someone discovers the dangers that this particular excess will deliver upon us. FWIW, I spent most of my childhood on Canadian army bases.... asbestos was the insulation of the day. My job includes daily "ablutions" in carcinogenic liquids, chock full of heavy metals and Lord only knows what chemical changes..... Am I ill... well, I suffer from the ravages of aging and the toll my daily tasks take on me... However, our lifestyles have overtaken us. Fresh fruit and vegetables weren't good enough. We first had to force this stuff out of the ground with chemicals, bypassing that "je ne c'est quois" that nature gave it. Then we had to process it and "enrich" it and add chenicals to it and add a label that says "MAY CONTAIN..." I'm putting this sh.t in my belly... can we please come up with something better than "MAY CONTAIN....". It doesn't take a college degree to realize that everything we have grown dependant upon has downsides.... electricity - hydro-electric can change the way a river works, atomic power (what can I say).... wind and tidal generators will also surely have an affect on our planet. The things we do, the way we do them, the things we eat and the way we grow them..... Just as we can be sure that Rich will find another alarming report to post in it's entirety (palgiarism and originality notwithstanding), we can be just as sure that tomorrows advancement can easily turn into next years problem. I don't think that it's the bad things by themselves that will do us in.... it is our excesses that will do that. >Heavy metals are pollutants.... you sound surprised. I didn't make it past >grade 8 and I knew that heavy metals were considered carcinogenic. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the excesses of consumers will ALWAYS overload ntures ability to deal with >common compounds. An environut is someone who constantly runs around shouting 'the sky is falling" and posting all manner of gloom and doom reports to instill fear in others, as if the news has just been discovered, even though it might be years old...... Oh, wait! That's Rich..... A large number of us who live under constant attack from environmentalists consider there to be different degrees of environmentalists..... There are those who truly care about the environment, but realize that there is no way to absolutely fix all the problems as long as humans are involved, so they are willing to work together and compromise.... they drive classic cars which they keep tuned and in good repair. There are those who are environmentalists because it's the in thing to do... they work in Hollywood and drive exotic cars and replace it when the tank goes dry. There are those who are environmentalists because of the drugs they took while residing on the communes raising pigs during the 60s... they still drive their VWs. There are those who are environmentalists for money... they still have fine Corinthian leather seats in their cars. There are those who are environmentalists who would just as soon turn the earth into a nature preserve and kick all the people out. This is a small elite group headed by Al Gore and go by the organizational name EnviroNuts or EnviroNatzis and believe there can be no middle ground where plants and animals are concerned. >We slopped R-12 around with abandon.... AC systems, hair spray and whipped >cream propellant and God knows what else. Now, many are guilty of slopping [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >I don't think that it's the bad things by themselves that will do us in.... >it is our excesses that will do that. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >Heavy metals are pollutants.... you sound surprised. I didn't make it past >grade 8 and I knew that heavy metals were considered carcinogenic. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >I don't think that it's the bad things by themselves that will do us in.... >it is our excesses that will do that. And yet we continue to live longer and longer. We must be living right? -Rich Of course the average age is longer now than years gone by..... diseases that were once killers are now either treatable or otherwise beatable. Polio, measles, rubella, scarlet fever... the mortaliy rate was extremely high. We can attribute the greatest portion of our longevity to medical advancements with a healthy dose of improvements in food storage. Interestingly, one device that improved food storage - the every present refrigerator - was part of the problem as we treated cfcs with a cavalier attitude. Getting back to carcinogenic..... in place of those old ads I remember as a child.... the one's featuring a youngster striken with polio in an iron lung. We now see ads fr those striken with diseases that people didn't live long enough to get. Years ago, we had neither air quality warnings nor people getting skin cancer from lying in the sun. We didn't have a lot of things we take as common-place today. The notion of zero pollution is unattainable... but we should all do our part to minimize the impact our daily lives have on our surroundings. We don't have to be raging environmentalists to use our non-renewable resources with a sensible mind and we aren't enviro-nuts if we realize that there are correct ways to dispose of some of our modern refuse. Imagine that the world was limited to your backyard..... you can only sh.t in your backyard for so long before it becomes a really unpleasant place to be... The world is a wide place... we can't look at it with narrow vision. In a word, no.  Signature"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." -- Gene Spafford : "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, : difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of : mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." : : -- Gene Spafford Oh My God! ROFLMFAO!!!! KJK > In a word, no. The militant environmentalists are simply using environmentalism as a vehicle (no pun intended) for their anti-capitalist beliefs. A large number of the most active enviro nut groups are fronts for communist/socialist organizations. The plight of the environment is really secondary to their desire to move towards a cradle to grave entitlement society. In their minds everyone should be equal...equally miserable. Now to pull this closer to being on-topic: My Mustang has been tucked away in the garage for almost 2 months...god how I wish I could roll her out and generate some healthy clouds of pollution. :P (*> >> In a word, no. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >entitlement society. In their minds everyone should be equal...equally >miserable. I knew the ACLU were a bunch of Commie sympathizers, but had not realized they were enviro nuts, too. Dang. They'll be after my car next as soon as they get done destroying religion and Christmas, and the rest of the American way of life... I wonder if they'll throw their support behind some minority automaker, and fight to close down the majority ones.... >Now to pull this closer to being on-topic: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >(*> -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? Kate : Catalytic converters: source of pollution? : [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] : : Copyright 2005 by United Press International >Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? >If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? > >Kate The future generations will have far more advanced technology that will allow them to better deal with any problem we might choose to tackle. Leave it for them. -Rich Now there's an attitude that really works......Everyone must love you as you leave a trail of things for other people to take care of in your wake.... >>Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? >>If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > tackle. Leave it for them. > -Rich >Now there's an attitude that really works......Everyone must love you as you >leave a trail of things for other people to take care of in your wake.... Like what? Or are you just speculating? Probably the thing I can't stand the most about all this are the hypocrites who NEVER practice what they preach. Give up your car, give up heating your house or using electricity, because they ALL pollute. Ride the 30 miles you have to to go to a grocery store (and only buy organic produce at 3x the price) on a bicycle during a -40 deg. Alberta cold snap!!!!! -Rich >>>Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? >>>If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> tackle. Leave it for them. >> -Rich Interesting take, Rich.... I'm a hypocrite because of what???? Saying that we all need to do what we can? Because I avail myself of the latest technology? Because I recycle? What part makes me a hypocrite?? I think you should spend more money on drugs.... those cheap ones are f*cking you up too much... >>Now there's an attitude that really works......Everyone must love you as >>you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> tackle. Leave it for them. >>> -Rich >Interesting take, Rich.... I'm a hypocrite because of what???? Saying that >we all need to do what we can? Because I avail myself of the latest >technology? Because I recycle? What part makes me a hypocrite?? > >I think you should spend more money on drugs.... those cheap ones are >f*cking you up too much... ROFLMAO!!!!! Dang , and I swallowed my gum!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!! >>>Now there's an attitude that really works......Everyone must love you as >>>you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>>> tackle. Leave it for them. >>>> -Rich -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg : >Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? : >If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : tackle. Leave it for them. : -Rich Oh, you are out of your rabbid assed mind. KJK >: >Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? >: >If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >KJK And you are a typical, unthinking, knee-jerk LIBERAL. Sell your cars NOW! -Rich "Rich" <none@none.com> barked out his a.s: : >: >Has it occured to you that we should keep trying until we get it right? : >: >If not, then what legacy do we leave to future generations? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : Sell your cars NOW! : -Rich Sadly, the only intelligent posts you EVER make, are the plagiarized copy and paste articles that you toss out now and then. Otherwise, you have nothing of real value to offer, not even anything worthy of entertainment value. You are an idiot without an original thought in your empty head. Your idea of "f.ck it up and let the future generations fix it" is completely absurd. Go back to copy and paste Rich, it gives you some semblance of intelligence by demonstrating your ability to right and left click on your mouse buttons.. KJK > "Rich" <none@none.com> barked out his a.s: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > by demonstrating your ability to right and left click on your mouse > buttons.. He does the exact same thing in the digital photography groups I frequent. He links to and plagiarizes boring, outdated web articles/sites. Complains about DSLR camera brands and HE DOESN'T EVEN OWN A FRIGGIN' DSLR CAMERA! They smack him around regularly in those groups. Personally I think he's a troll or starved for attention, even if it is negative. : > "Rich" <none@none.com> barked out his a.s: : > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] : groups. Personally I think he's a troll or starved for attention, even : if it is negative. Until recently he's been relatively harmless, but here lately it's as if someone gave him too high a jolt of electricity at the funny farm or like Spike said cheap drugs. KJK >: He does the exact same thing in the digital photography groups I >: frequent. He links to and plagiarizes boring, outdated web [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >KJK Or, while out picking through the dump recently, he came across a stack of old Greenpeace magazines.... -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg : >Until recently he's been relatively harmless, but here lately it's as if : >someone gave him too high a jolt of electricity at the funny farm or like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : Or, while out picking through the dump recently, he came across a : stack of old Greenpeace magazines.... Well, for some, bad attention is better than no attention at all. KJK > : >Until recently he's been relatively harmless, but here lately it's as if > : >someone gave him too high a jolt of electricity at the funny farm or like [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > KJK If you ever wondered, do a Google-groups search for free speech store and/or sift through news.admin.net-abuse.email and look at the multiple posts under multiple names about the SPEWS list. One k00k, a million OT messages and the wrong meds. Mix in a whole lotta time and you have hurc ast to a 5th power. SignatureOh, you are out of your rabbid assed mind.- KJK : > : >Until recently he's been relatively harmless, but here lately it's as if : > : >someone gave him too high a jolt of electricity at the funny farm or like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] : million OT messages and the wrong meds. Mix in a whole lotta time and : you have hurc ast to a 5th power. Can I just take your word for it? The k00ks are bad enough when they come out on their own, you want me to go looking for them? *grin* I'm fairly certain that I can find something much more pleasant to do with my time. Sounds like it would be enlightening in an off world sort of way. AAAAAAKKKKK!!!!!!! He uttered the <expletive deleted>...... "Beetlejuice - beetlejuice - beetlejuice....". Fie on you, WF, and a pox on your existance for uttering the hu.....hu.....hu... him word..... >AAAAAAKKKKK!!!!!!! He uttered the <expletive deleted>...... > >"Beetlejuice - beetlejuice - beetlejuice....". > >Fie on you, WF, and a pox on your existance for uttering the >hu.....hu.....hu... him word..... JIM! DON'T SAY IT!!!!!!!!!! -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg : AAAAAAKKKKK!!!!!!! He uttered the <expletive deleted>...... : : "Beetlejuice - beetlejuice - beetlejuice....". : : Fie on you, WF, and a pox on your existance for uttering the : hu.....hu.....hu... him word..... It had the same effect on me Jim... I was hoping that if I ingored it, it would stay away. ptooie ptooie ptooie KJK > : AAAAAAKKKKK!!!!!!! He uttered the <expletive deleted>...... > : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > KJK Deal with some of the people I see daily and you'll beg to have beetle juice back.... SignatureOh, you are out of your rabbid assed mind.- KJK : Deal with some of the people I see daily and you'll beg to have : beetle juice back.... Umm... like who? Here in my little corner of the world, the only people that can bother me are the ones that are in town and I have to drive 15 miles to let them annoy me. KJK > : Deal with some of the people I see daily and you'll beg to have > : beetle juice back.... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > KJK Told you, GOogle Free speech store, freespeechstore and richard scoville. Parouse what comes up. Look in the news group I mentioned. SignatureOh, you are out of your rabbid assed mind.- KJK > : And you are a typical, unthinking, knee-jerk LIBERAL. > : Sell your cars NOW! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > KJK I'd say I have to agree if he thinks you are a Liberal. SignatureOh, you are out of your rabbid assed mind.- KJK : > : And you are a typical, unthinking, knee-jerk LIBERAL. : > : Sell your cars NOW! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] : : I'd say I have to agree if he thinks you are a Liberal. Thank you sir... I am so pleased that you noticed. KJK Yeah, on the other hand, my car with no cats just passed emissions. Locally (Alb, NM) they've adopted the OBD-II emissions testing without any sniffer in the tail pipe. My car is completely healthy from the perspective of the OBD-II systems so I passed the test. There is, currently, no visual inspection, so the straight pipes, while raising questions, did not cause my car to fail. And I can put a pair of empty cat cans on for the visual and still pass since my car is healthy according to the diagnostics. The point is, cats may become superfluous on vehicles later than 1996. >Yeah, on the other hand, my car with no cats just passed emissions. >Locally (Alb, NM) they've adopted the OBD-II emissions testing without [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >The point is, cats may become superfluous on vehicles later than 1996. Catalytic converters are like hydrogen fuel; All the environuts want them/it, but never stop to consider what is done to PROVIDE the materials to make them. In the case of platinum, an ingredient in converters, it's the clearing of the plant life, the blasting, the digging, transporting, crushing, processing, refining of one ounce of metal from at least 25 tons of rock. How much energy and pollution do you suppose that creates in whatever backward country it's done in? -Rich : >Yeah, on the other hand, my car with no cats just passed emissions. : >Locally (Alb, NM) they've adopted the OBD-II emissions testing without [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] : it's done in? : -Rich Is this the same asswipe that just called me a liberal? Which side of your mouth are you whistling out of now dimwit? Sheesh, choose a side and stick with it will you? KJK >> Yeah, on the other hand, my car with no cats just passed emissions. >> Locally (Alb, NM) they've adopted the OBD-II emissions testing without [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and pollution do you suppose that creates in whatever backward country > it's done in? All we need are batteries that can run a car for 300 miles, can be recharged in less than 5 minutes and can last 1,000 charge cycles. Put an efficient, 50-100hp electric motor in each wheel hub and just think of the savings that could result. No more antifreeze, oil, gasoline, transmission fluid, grease, power steering fluid etc. Then think of the addition interior space and packaging possibilities from having no drive train. Also, the performance possibilities would be fantastic with computers controlling each drive wheel with a finesse not remotely possible on today's cars/trucks. The car I described could be built today if we, the consumers, demanded it. BTW, do you own a car? ;) >>> Yeah, on the other hand, my car with no cats just passed emissions. >>> Locally (Alb, NM) they've adopted the OBD-II emissions testing [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > could be built today if we, the consumers, demanded it. BTW, do you > own a car? ;) So Michael, if that Shelby you're considering had those 4 electric motors you're talking about instead of what it will really come with, would you still be considering it? ;) >>>> Yeah, on the other hand, my car with no cats just passed emissions. >>>> Locally (Alb, NM) they've adopted the OBD-II emissions testing [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > motors you're talking about instead of what it will really come with, > would you still be considering it? ;) Sure. Electric motors can be torque monsters. I don't care what it runs on just as long as it can do a burnout and go like a bat out of hell. I would miss the exhaust note but it would be one hell of a sleeper. :) >Jo >>> All we need are batteries that can run a car for 300 miles, can be [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >hell. I would miss the exhaust note but it would be one hell of a >sleeper. :) Problem... no drive train... ok.... no fluids.... ok.... but those batteries have to go someplace.... and when they go bad... I think we have some sort of pollution problem building.... On a happier note.... if they built it.... you could always get a CD of BB engines, slip some speakers into the wheel wells, and crank it up.... add some speakers on the dash pointed right at your face and the sound waves should mash you into your seat, blow back your hair, flatten out your face and press your eyeballs back in their sockets, thus giving the illusion of going like a bat out of hell.... : 0 ) A running partner of mine did the stereo thing with his VW bug (along with some phony pipes)... it really freaked some people out when the light changed. He had 'em cold for about the first 30 feet or so... -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >> Jo >>>> All we need are batteries that can run a car for 300 miles, can be [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > batteries have to go someplace.... and when they go bad... I think we > have some sort of pollution problem building.... True but it would be a relatively infrequent event and comparing the volume of fluids over a 300,000 mile life of a car disposing of a set of batteries would be minor. Also just think of all the manufacturing of metal that would be unnecessary like engine blocks, heads, gears, transmissions, etc. > On a happier note.... if they built it.... you could always get a CD > of BB engines, slip some speakers into the wheel wells, and crank it > up.... add some speakers on the dash pointed right at your face and > the sound waves should mash you into your seat, blow back your hair, > flatten out your face and press your eyeballs back in their sockets, > thus giving the illusion of going like a bat out of hell.... : 0 ) Who knows, maybe the whining of four strong electric motors might have it own unique sound that would grow on me. :) > A running partner of mine did the stereo thing with his VW bug (along > with some phony pipes)... it really freaked some people out when the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg > Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >>> Jo >>>>> All we need are batteries that can run a car for 300 miles, can be [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >metal that would be unnecessary like engine blocks, heads, gears, >transmissions, etc. And all those unemployed auto workers.... but is that something not entered into the equation... by the time such an auto is produced, what would the world population be, how many would have such vehicles, and thus how many more discarded batteries and fluids would there be? >> On a happier note.... if they built it.... you could always get a CD >> of BB engines, slip some speakers into the wheel wells, and crank it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Who knows, maybe the whining of four strong electric motors might have >it own unique sound that would grow on me. :) Hmmmmm.... whining.... a Jewish car.... probably not good on dates... LOL >> A running partner of mine did the stereo thing with his VW bug (along >> with some phony pipes)... it really freaked some people out when the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg >> Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg : >True but it would be a relatively infrequent event and comparing the : >volume of fluids over a 300,000 mile life of a car disposing of a set of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : what would the world population be, how many would have such vehicles, : and thus how many more discarded batteries and fluids would there be? But but but.... WE can just pile them up! Dump them anywhere, who cares! The future generations will figure out a way to get rid of the toxins. THEY will clean it up! Have you not been reading these posts? Have you not learned anything here?? Sheesh. KJK : On a happier note.... if they built it.... you could always get a CD : of BB engines, slip some speakers into the wheel wells, and crank it : up.... add some speakers on the dash pointed right at your face and : the sound waves should mash you into your seat, blow back your hair, : flatten out your face and press your eyeballs back in their sockets, : thus giving the illusion of going like a bat out of hell.... : 0 ) DAMNIT SPIKE! What have I told you about filling the hot tub with Boones Farm?? : A running partner of mine did the stereo thing with his VW bug (along : with some phony pipes)... it really freaked some people out when the : light changed. He had 'em cold for about the first 30 feet or so... Yea, a guy can only pedal so fast for so long, then his legs give out. Is this one of the guys that lives up north of me? KJK >: On a happier note.... if they built it.... you could always get a CD >: of BB engines, slip some speakers into the wheel wells, and crank it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >KJK Nope... he was one lonnnnngggggg before that bunch.... -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >>Jo >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > batteries have to go someplace.... and when they go bad... I think we > have some sort of pollution problem building.... I hate to think what it costs to get a set of batteries replaced in a hybrid. The "recycling" fee itself must be pretty hefty. Pure electric cars at this point are a complete pipe dream. Not only do you have the battery disposal problem, but consider the following... If everyone converted to electric cars, where would all of the required electrical power come from to charge all of those batteries? Are we going to increase the amount of coal we burn by several orders of magnitude? The enviro nuts will never allow more nuke power plants to be built either...so whats the alternative? The U.S power grid is near the breaking point now. There have not been any major improvements or additions to existing electrical infrastructure for decades. Remember the rolling blackouts in California? How on earth are they going to be able to provide enough power for everyones electric cars when they can hardly keep up with electrical demand now. (*> >>> Jo >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I hate to think what it costs to get a set of batteries replaced in a > hybrid. The "recycling" fee itself must be pretty hefty. Probably not much more than an engine rebuild. > Pure electric cars at this point are a complete pipe dream. Not only do > you have the battery disposal problem, but consider the following... Pure electrical cars are far from a pipe dream. They are possible right now. The only thing keeping them from replacing petrol driven cars is having batteries that give an equivalent driving range (i.e. 300+ miles on a charge) and a quick recharge time of, say, less than 5 minutes. We have the technology (sans the batteries) in computers, electric motors, build materials etc. to make one hell of an electric vehicle, IMO, and to make it quite affordable. > If everyone converted to electric cars, where would all of the required > electrical power come from to charge all of those batteries? Are we > going to increase the amount of coal we burn by several orders of > magnitude? The enviro nuts will never allow more nuke power plants to > be built either...so whats the alternative? Making electrical power can be done in a variety of ways. The good thing is that nearly all power plants have emissions controls and by centralizing the burning of the fuel (i.e. coal, oil etc.) it is easier to do it in an efficient, clean manor. It is an economy of scale thing. Once the electricity is generated the end user generates zero emissions. Just think of all the waste that is avoided by an electric car with a set of 1,000 recharge cycle batteries verses a typical car of today. Plus a combustion engine is notoriously inefficient for converting the energy of petroleum to mechanical energy to drive a car. Way less efficient than an electric car. Also, having the electric grid and vehicles in place makes shifting to newer, more efficient technologies for generating electricity seamless and painless. > The U.S power grid is near the breaking point now. There have not been > any major improvements or additions to existing electrical > infrastructure for decades. The money saved from not having to manufacture, transport, store and distribute liquid fuel could more than cover the costs of improving the power grid. The fact is there isn't a more efficient way to distribute power to the masses than the electrical grid. Plus a person could slow charge their vehicle overnight in their home and reduce the peak demands on the grid since the electrical load is low when people are sleeping. > Remember the rolling blackouts in California? How on earth are they > going to be able to provide enough power for everyones electric cars > when they can hardly keep up with electrical demand now. The way they always do, improve the capacity of the system. It isn't that difficult and really not that expensive. The money saved from the reduction in manufacturing, storing, transporting and distributing petroleum for use in current vehicles would more than pay for it. Heck, in California just the money saved from the elimination of their Nazi smog inspection process would pay for it. ;) >>>> Jo >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Probably not much more than an engine rebuild. A standard gasoline engine is going to outlast a set of batteries 5 times over minimum. In extreme climates the difference will become even more apparent. Batteries are like people...they don't tend to hold up well in extreme cold or heat, they do best at median temps. >> Pure electric cars at this point are a complete pipe dream. Not only >> do you have the battery disposal problem, but consider the following... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > grid and vehicles in place makes shifting to newer, more efficient > technologies for generating electricity seamless and painless. We are not talking about the need for one or two new powerplants...you'd need dozens. Who's gonna pay to build them? Who is going to allow them in their back yards? etc. etc. >> The U.S power grid is near the breaking point now. There have not >> been any major improvements or additions to existing electrical [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > charge their vehicle overnight in their home and reduce the peak demands > on the grid since the electrical load is low when people are sleeping. Even though fuel prices are high, the refining industry is one of the most well tuned industries on earth. The cost of manufacture and transport is a tiny fraction of the cost of a gallon of gas as it's done on such a massive scale and the processes involved have been perfected over decades. >> Remember the rolling blackouts in California? How on earth are they >> going to be able to provide enough power for everyones electric cars [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in California just the money saved from the elimination of their Nazi > smog inspection process would pay for it. ;) I only have two questions...who's going to pay for the upgrades, and who is going to be able to get it rammed through the political process and make it possible (even if someone will cough up the cash to do it)? I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing an major increase in the capacity of the electrical grid in the next 20 years. (*> ><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > more apparent. Batteries are like people...they don't tend to hold up > well in extreme cold or heat, they do best at median temps. If a set of batteries has a 300 mile range and can be recharged 1,000 times then that equates to 300,000 miles. How many gas engines last 300,000 miles? OTOH, IMO, electric motors are quite durable and could be engineered to last that long. Especially, if one is used at each wheel to reduce the load and power requirement of each one. >>> Pure electric cars at this point are a complete pipe dream. Not only >>> do you have the battery disposal problem, but consider the following... [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > need dozens. Who's gonna pay to build them? Who is going to allow them > in their back yards? etc. etc. And we are also talking about far fewer refineries, gas stations, tanker ships, transport trucks, offshore oil platforms etc. too. There are plenty of places to build power plants. Fly over the continental US and see all the unused space we have. ;) >>> The U.S power grid is near the breaking point now. There have not >>> been any major improvements or additions to existing electrical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > on such a massive scale and the processes involved have been perfected > over decades. And why can't this same thing happen with electricity? >>> Remember the rolling blackouts in California? How on earth are they >>> going to be able to provide enough power for everyones electric cars [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is going to be able to get it rammed through the political process and > make it possible (even if someone will cough up the cash to do it)? If the consumer wants it then it will happen. That is the great thing about capitalism. How do you think the oil industry came into existence? Who paid for it? > I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing an > major increase in the capacity of the electrical grid in the next 20 years. Someone said the same thing 30-40 years ago about the majority of homes having a personal computer. Now many homes have one for each person in the house. They are more common than toasters. ;) Also, over the next 20 years there will have to be a major increase in the capacity of the electric grid whether we have electric cars or not. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > be engineered to last that long. Especially, if one is used at each > wheel to reduce the load and power requirement of each one. There are a couple of serious flaws in your analysis. The first problem is that even if you assume the vehicle can make it 300 miles on a charge when new (which is not possible as of today), it will not be able to deliver that range over its entire service life. As the number of cycles pile up, its effective capacity is going to erode and you will not get anywhere near 300 miles when the battery is going end of life. Second, the number of cycles that you will get out of the battery is tied to the average depth of discharge that it is subjected to. In your example you quote 1000 cycles. You may only get 1000 cycles if you are averaging a 50% depth of discharge per cycle. Third, the extreme temperatures that most vehicles are subjected to will significantly impact battery performance and you will rarely attain that 300 mile per charge mark even when new. Extreme temperatures will also seriously shorten its effective life. Look at the lead acid battery in your car today. In most cases you are lucky to get 5 years out of it, and it's usage duty cycle is extremely small. These factors significantly alter your 300,000 mile theory. Of course the specific battery chemistry used is going to alter the equation, but I believe that 50k miles is a more realistic number with a pure electric vehicle using todays battery technology. On the subject of gasoline engines, it really depends on how they are driven. 300,000 in town short trip miles would be pretty tough. I know plenty of people that put on 25-50k a year on the freeway, and they have no trouble putting on 200k+ without any major issues. In my original quote, I was assuming a 50k life from vehicle batteries, and a 250k service life from the gasoline engine to get the 5x number. Of course we don't have any good data to go from as there are no mass produced purely electric vehicles in use by the public at this time, but in my earlier life I spent years designing numerous types of charging systems for lead acid, ni-cd, ni-mh, and lithium ion battery types so I became intimately familiar with all of their differing characteristics. (*> >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > There are a couple of serious flaws in your analysis. Only a couple? I'm getting better. ;) > The first problem is that even if you assume the vehicle can make it 300 > miles on a charge when new (which is not possible as of today), it will [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > example you quote 1000 cycles. You may only get 1000 cycles if you are > averaging a 50% depth of discharge per cycle. You're assuming these batteries use current technology. I imagine they will be lithium or maybe something better. As I stated, the batteries that I believe will be in a viable electric car does not exist today. > Third, the extreme temperatures that most vehicles are subjected to will > significantly impact battery performance and you will rarely attain that > 300 mile per charge mark even when new. Extreme temperatures will also > seriously shorten its effective life. Look at the lead acid battery in > your car today. In most cases you are lucky to get 5 years out of it, > and it's usage duty cycle is extremely small. I expect mileage to vary based on driving conditions just like it does today for internal combustion engines. It may take more time before battery technology allows electric snowcats but for the overwhelming majority of us it won't be a problem 99.9% of the time. Actually lithium batteries we can buy today are fairly cold resistant. > These factors significantly alter your 300,000 mile theory. Of course > the specific battery chemistry used is going to alter the equation, but > I believe that 50k miles is a more realistic number with a pure electric > vehicle using todays battery technology. Depending on replacement costs 50k miles on a set may be quite feasible. > On the subject of gasoline engines, it really depends on how they are > driven. 300,000 in town short trip miles would be pretty tough. I know > plenty of people that put on 25-50k a year on the freeway, and they have > no trouble putting on 200k+ without any major issues. In my original > quote, I was assuming a 50k life from vehicle batteries, and a 250k > service life from the gasoline engine to get the 5x number. It is rare for most cars to see 300,000 miles. I don't see why an electric car can't be just as durable as a gasoline powered car. In some ways they may be more durable since there will likely be far fewer moving parts. Also, electric motors can last a very long time if designed and built properly using today's technology. > Of course we don't have any good data to go from as there are no mass > produced purely electric vehicles in use by the public at this time, but > in my earlier life I spent years designing numerous types of charging > systems for lead acid, ni-cd, ni-mh, and lithium ion battery types so I > became intimately familiar with all of their differing characteristics. I'm far from an expert on any of this. It just seems to me that electric cars solve too many problems to not be the ultimate successor to the gasoline powered car. It also makes sense to me because society is gravitating toward most things consuming electrical power and alternative energy sources like geothermal, wind, tides, photoelectric cells, nuclear etc. result in the production of electricity. Electronics, most household items etc. require it to function. It would unify the power distribution system and greatly reduce the need for our current huge oil infrastructure. It centralizes power generation so these facilities can be run cleaner and take advantage of new technologies to everyones benefit. It will require huge improvements in the power generation and delivery systems but then in 1900 would anyone have thought there would be a quadrillion gas stations spread around the globe? I expect if this happens it will be a decades long process unless some unforeseen factor kicks in to accelerate it. >I'm far from an expert on any of this. It just seems to me that >electric cars solve too many problems to not be the ultimate successor [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >globe? I expect if this happens it will be a decades long process >unless some unforeseen factor kicks in to accelerate it. Ahhh, now the ultimate might be some way of harnessing gravity (attract/repel something like maglev), or tapping into the aurora borealis... Actually, cars which operate on the same general principle as the electric trolley using some kind of ground installed cable or track, with computer controls coupled to GPS... plug in the co-ordinates for the local grocery and the car takes you there by the quickest/safest means. Get onto an interstate and the car picks up on a power grid and goes to where you program it, with any stops along the way. Make them toll routes to pay for the power used and system upkeep. Personally, I don't think we'll be around to need such systems. Some catastrophe will come along to greatly reduce the need. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >> I'm far from an expert on any of this. It just seems to me that >> electric cars solve too many problems to not be the ultimate successor [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and goes to where you program it, with any stops along the way. > Make them toll routes to pay for the power used and system upkeep. I would rather breath smog as thick as gravy before living with this. ;) > Personally, I don't think we'll be around to need such systems. Some > catastrophe will come along to greatly reduce the need. Everyone is too concerned with global warming to worry about any massive asteroids streaking towards us. ;) >> Actually, cars which operate on the same general principle as the >> electric trolley using some kind of ground installed cable or track, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Everyone is too concerned with global warming to worry about any massive >asteroids streaking towards us. ;) I wasn't considering asteroids, comets, etc. I'm thinking disease, war (which I consider to be a natural phenomenon of sorts), natural catastrophes (major tsunamis on the NW US Coast and the Eastern Seaboard caused by tectonic uplifts),more major volcanic activity, reversal of the magnetic poles (which is approximately 10% already in the southern Atlantic regions if the present models are correct). Earth protects itself from time to time. It's not a gloom and doom prediction, it's just the way it is in the natural order of things. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >>> Actually, cars which operate on the same general principle as the >>> electric trolley using some kind of ground installed cable or track, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Earth protects itself from time to time. It's not a gloom and doom > prediction, it's just the way it is in the natural order of things. I was just telling someone the other day that we all may look back and say "Remember when all we had to worry about was thermonuclear war?" when some wacked-out terrorist or environmentalist genetically engineers a super bug or virus that wipes out 99% of mankind. I don't see Mother Nature as protecting herself as much as her saying to all life on earth just before every mass extinction "Who's tough enough to make it to the next level?" I don't think humans will fair as well as cockroaches during the next one. >I was just telling someone the other day that we all may look back and >say "Remember when all we had to worry about was thermonuclear war?" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to make it to the next level?" I don't think humans will fair as well >as cockroaches during the next one. Sea critters had their day. reptiles had their day, mammals are having their day. Virii and microbes have always had their day. What's left? Bugs. Consider how close sci fi writers have always been. Now consider all those hokey scifi movies about ants and roaches and bees, and.... : 0 ) -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >>>> Jo >>>> [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] >in California just the money saved from the elimination of their Nazi >smog inspection process would pay for it. ;) My father, who has been working with electrical and electronic systems since the early days of radar during WW2, and headed a division of a major corporation's government projects division when 5 of his bosses got the axe, was over and we were discussing such issues. When he began quoting equations, and explaining their impact regarding what it takes in juice to power a 1 horse motor, and how long it would take to charge up a system with a 1 horse motor at each wheel, I was amazed. It's going to take a heck of a lot more than added power plants to go to a so called non emission electric car system unless there is some huge techno breakthrough. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg "Spike" <jma@snowcrest.net> wrote I was amazed. > It's going to take a heck of a lot more than added power plants to go > to a so called non emission electric car system unless there is some > huge techno breakthrough. The other fact that seems to have been forgotten is that it takes MORE fuel to create the electricity to run the electric car, than it does just to run the car on fuel and skip the whole electric thing. SignatureScott W. '66 HCS Mustang 289 '68 Ranchero 500 302 '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W ThunderSnake #57 http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/ > "Spike" <jma@snowcrest.net> wrote > I was amazed. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to create the electricity to run the electric car, than it does just to run > the car on fuel and skip the whole electric thing. And, coal-fired powerplants are not exactly environmentally friendly. In theory, fine, but in practice, not at all. It's counterproductive. It's all fed by half-truths and BS. Hybrids are a similar disaster. Isn't breakeven on a hybrid like 12-15 years, compared to its gas counterpart? This guy at work is so proud he coaxed 50.7 mpg out of his Civic hybrid, but what did it cost? And how much are those powertrain parts? I would bet more marginal pollution is created in the manufacture of a hybrid vs. an equivalent gas model than it will EVER save in emissions. The only sensible thing that's being done is increasing methanol use. I wonder about timing, gaskets, hoses, and other stuff... but it should have been phased in years ago SignatureWound Up ThunderSnake #65 AHPBBFM posting rules: http://tinyurl.com/ak694 AHPBBFM links page: http://tinyurl.com/a9qsx Big Block is an Attitude > "Spike" <jma@snowcrest.net> wrote > I was amazed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to create the electricity to run the electric car, than it does just to run > the car on fuel and skip the whole electric thing. It depends on how the electricity is generated. The internal combustion engine is typically only 25% efficient and the average efficiency of power plants in the US is 33%. The more modern power plants can reach efficiency levels of 50%-60%. I would say in today's world there isn't a huge difference in overall efficiency between gas and electric cars. In fact, without advances in battery technology electric cars just aren't viable. However, as electric power plants become more efficient and alternative energy sources are developed such as wind, geothermal, tidal etc. the potential for electric cars are great. Add to this the reduction in pollution, discarded fluids etc. and to me it seems they are the logical choice to succeed the internal combustion engine sometime in the future. >>>>> Jo >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > to a so called non emission electric car system unless there is some > huge techno breakthrough. I respect what you are saying but building capacity into the system for supplying vehicles won't happen over night and delivering electricity on a large scale happens today at thousands upon thousands of factories all over the country. If we can deliver a gallon of gas from half way around the world to damn near every neighborhood in the USA for $2/gallon then delivering electricity to supply electric cars is more than feasible and affordable. I don't see where a huge techno breakthrough is required to deliver electricity. There will hopefully be breakthroughs in generating electricity as technology advances. Sooner or later electric cars will come to the market in a meaningful way. If I could buy one at a competitive price that recharges quickly, has good range, etc. I would do it. I think the public is ready to accept them today if they were available. Even with their potential problems with maintenance, hybrids are selling quite well. >> My father, who has been working with electrical and electronic systems >> since the early days of radar during WW2, and headed a division of a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >accept them today if they were available. Even with their potential >problems with maintenance, hybrids are selling quite well. I think there is a segment of the populace which is ready to accept, but I think you'd find the vast majority are not, and for a wide range of reasons. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >>> My father, who has been working with electrical and electronic systems >>> since the early days of radar during WW2, and headed a division of a [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > but I think you'd find the vast majority are not, and for a wide range > of reasons. I think so too. Electric cars will have to prove themselves before being accepted by the masses. > Making electrical power can be done in a variety of ways. The good > thing is that nearly all power plants have emissions controls and by > centralizing the burning of the fuel (i.e. coal, oil etc.) it is easier > to do it in an efficient, clean manor. From: http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2004/10/09_402.html RFK: One of the worst examples is the rewriting of New Source Review. I have three sons with asthma; one out of every four black kids in New York City now has asthma. Asthma attacks are triggered primarily by ozone and particulates, and the major sources of those materials in our atmosphere are 1,100 coal-burning power plants that are burning coal illegally. The Clinton administration had initiated investigations and prosecutions against 70 of the worst of those. But this is an industry that donated $48 million to President Bush and the Republican Party in the 2000 cycle and has given $58 million since. One of the first things that Bush did when he came into office was to order the Justice Department to drop those lawsuits. The Justice Department lawyer said that this had never happened before in American history, where a president accepts money from industries targeted for investigation and prosecution, and then orders the Justice Department to drop those investigations once he gets into office. There were 70 utilities involved here and, according to EPA, just the criminal exceedences from those 70 plants killed 5,500 Americans every year. Then the administration went and rewrote the Clean Air Act, gutting the New Source rule, which means those plants will be able to discharge ozone and particulates forever. http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200504/042205a.html Independent Library Of Congress Study Confirms That Bush Mercury Rules Let Industry Off The Hook (FRIDAY, April 22) -- A new Congressional Research Service (Library of Congress) report requested by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) confirms that most power plants will have to do nothing to reduce toxic mercury pollution from power plants for at least ten years under the Bush Administration's new mercury rules. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a set of two rules on March 15. The first rule reversed a 2000 EPA decision that it is "necessary" and "appropriate" to regulate mercury from coal-fired power plants. The second rule established a "cap and trade" system under which utilities can either control mercury pollution or buy allowances from other plants. The new independent report released by Leahy validates many of the concerns about the Bush Administrations mercury rule that were raised by states, public health officials and sportsmen at a Democratic Policy Committee hearing chaired by Senator Leahy on April 19 on Capitol Hill. This adds to the mountain of evidence that confirms the Bush Administrations mercury rule is fatally flawed and steeped with favoritism to the big polluters, said Leahy. - Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end. http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition. http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm "You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence. "The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq? http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21 "They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq. http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm http://www.commondreams.org/ http://www.truthout.org/ >> Making electrical power can be done in a variety of ways. The good >> thing is that nearly all power plants have emissions controls and by [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > http://www.commondreams.org/ > http://www.truthout.org/ I suppose you have solid evidence of all this, and it's not just what you heard via anti-Bush/Republican media. And if you don't personally have such evidence, then you should not be the one airing it. Leave it to those who claim they do. Even if true, it's not as if people like the Clintons have not had their fair share of getting away with doing bad things. All this back stabbing revenge stuff is so over used that a major share of the public doesn't trust either side for the truth. It's all rhetoric, and those who spread it are like children on a playground calling each other names. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg >>>Making electrical power can be done in a variety of ways. The good >>>thing is that nearly all power plants have emissions controls and by >>>centralizing the burning of the fuel (i.e. coal, oil etc.) it is easier >>>to do it in an efficient, clean manor. >> From: >> http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2004/10/09_402.html [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>Administrations mercury rule is fatally flawed and steeped with >>favoritism to the big polluters, said Leahy. > Even if true, If you would learn to read and think for yourself, you wouldn't be totally dependent on government propaganda for your "information", and you wouldn't have to guess what's true and what isn't - you'd know. - Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end. http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition. http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm "You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence. "The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq? http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21 "They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq. http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm >>>>Making electrical power can be done in a variety of ways. The good >>>>thing is that nearly all power plants have emissions controls and by [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq. > http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm And if YOU would learn to think for yourself instead of aping all the propaganda you see, hear, and/or read you would not be wasting everyone's' time with repeated postings of wasted rhetoric which few care to hear in this forum. -- Spike 1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok; Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound audio-video... See my ride at.... Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg Did somebody fart or is Hanky back? |
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