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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / January 2006

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Diesel Engine swap into 1971 Mustang Fastback...

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RR News - 31 Dec 2005 12:03 GMT
Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
them having one of the largest engine bays, I assume that this swap is
possible.

Of course this would be for a biodiesel project, and perhaps eventual
conversion to WVO (Waste Vehicle Oil) but I don't want to start looking at
any fancy new type of diesel engine (common direct rail, etc).  I was just
wondering if anyone would know off-hand what Diesel of the Ford line-up
would be the least amount of hassle for this swap.

I think my last post to this group was in the year 2000...things have
changed.

Where is Bill S.?

Thank you for your time,
Bruce Lortz
Mililani, HI
blortz@hawaii.rr.net (replace .net with .com)
Former 66 Mustang owner
Former 72 Mustang owner
Current 93 Escort owner (sucks to be me)
Kruse - 31 Dec 2005 17:46 GMT
> Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
> Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
> them having one of the largest engine bays, I assume that this swap is
> possible.

Dear Lord, give me strength.........

Okay, with that being said, please don't butcher up this car. My
advice: The money you invest in putting a diesel in a '71 Mustang will
never be recovered by the fuel that you may (or may not) potentially
save. To me this smells like you want to do something because it's the
latest fad and everybody else is doing it. (Or claims they are doing
it)

Now, if you really want to do a diesel conversion that should be
economical (if you run it for 100K miles) buy yourself a gas Chevette.
The little junked out POS Chevettes are cheap.  Stay away from the
diesel Chevette, you can't get parts for them. Take out the gas motor
and put in an industrial 3 cylinder Isuzu motor. New motors can be had
for $2500. Mate a manual transmission to it and maybe then you can feel
good about your conversion. Of course, if you have state inspections it
won't pass, but the '71 diesel Mustang probably wouldn't either.
If you try the Mustang diesel swap, you will end up with a worthless
car or you will give up on it long before it is finished. My $.02
worth. It's probably worth less because I don't think you will listen
to me anyway.....
Paul - 31 Dec 2005 18:23 GMT
: > Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
: > Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
: worth. It's probably worth less because I don't think you will listen
: to me anyway.....

When was the last time you even SAW a Chevette, junked out or otherwise?
They're rarer than Mustangs these days.

A diesel Mustang? Have mercy... but if someone has to do it, a '71-'73 would
be the way to go.

Paul
Kruse - 31 Dec 2005 19:44 GMT
> When was the last time you even SAW a Chevette, junked out or otherwise?
> They're rarer than Mustangs these days.
> A diesel Mustang? Have mercy... but if someone has to do it, a '71-'73 would
> be the way to go.
> Paul

You obviously live in the wrong section of the country. A few months
ago I bought an '82 Chevette Diesel, 2 door, five speed for $200 bucks.
It is rust free with brand new tires. Engine is shot. The 3LD1 Isuzu
diesel 3 cyl motor has an SAE 3 bell housing and bell housing adapters
to mate SAE blocks to GM trannys are made about 15 minutes away from
me. I might be trying the project that I posted about this coming
spring. There are several more fairly complete Chevettes in the area
salvage yards. Have I bought the parts yet to complete this swap? No.
But it is very tempting, especially since my state does NOT have annual
car inspections or exhaust sniffs. Next time gas again goes over $3 a
gallon I will probably take the plunge. Is my idea far fetched? Maybe.
But so is the diesel Mustang.
RR News - 01 Jan 2006 07:56 GMT
I realize the undertaking would be immense, but if I ever wanted a diesel
engine in a muscle car, it would be in a 71 Mustang fastback (my favorite
body style).  Personally, my feeling is that a biodiesel engine would
produce more interest if it was running in a nice car.  This is really just
"wishful thinking" because old mustang parts are difficult to source where I
live (Hawaii) and in the 20+ years that I've lived here, I've seen perhaps 3
of these cars (71 to 73 Mustangs) running, and only 1 in a junkyard .
Living in Hawaii, does give me an advantage for the diesel use though,
because smog checks are non-existant and BioDiesel is readily available
where I work.

I do appreciate the practicality of your statements though, and you
definately seem more knowledgable in the subject then I am (I know little
enough about gas engines and almost nothing about diesels).  If I was
serious about just getting any biodiesel vehicle running, I would most
likely go the route of a used Mercedes Diesel from Ebay.

My concept about how this entire undertaking would unfold would be as
follows:

1. Find out what sort of diesel engine is a good canidate for the swap (my
current stage)
2. Source locations in California to do the work. (My brother lives about 4
blocks from Danny Bahn's shop in Rosemead, he seems to be a quality Mustang
Modder, not sure about his diesel knowledge though).
3.  Find a chassis for around $2,000.00 (Has to be a 1971 Fastback, ideally
with the Nasa hoodscoops, cause they are neato)
4.  Depending on information gathered about question 1, find a diesel engine
to have installed (solid rebuilt diesel engine prices anyone?)
5.  Have a knowledgable person perform the engine+transmission installation
for me (I don't have a clue on how many man hours of labor this would take,
or the price of said mechanic).
6.  Install other components myself (most likely done piecemeal over the
course of few years.  Estimated cost at $6000.00+)

I feel confident about restoring/installing brakes, suspension, electrical,
vacuum, and the interior of this vehicle.  I feel your recommendation runs
along the lines of "don't jump in head first", and that's damn good advice.
I'm really only in the intelligence gathering phase, and will most likely
experiment with the used Mercedes-Biodiesel car first.  However, I was
hoping that someone would post something along the lines of "hell, the 7.3L
powerstroke uses the same motor mounts as the 428, and they go all the way
back to the 82 models that use indirect injection"

I doubt that I'll ever get out of the "wishing" stage of this project, but I
do recognize this newsgroup as being one of the better places for
information.

Thank you for your input,
Bruce Lortz

P.S. I used to have a 82 Isuzu P'up, that I got for free (with a blown head
gasket) After fixing that head gasket that engine worked great.  I ended up
giving it back to the original owner (when I got the 93 Escort), and he gave
it to his son-in-law, who turned around and sold it for an undisclosed
amount of money.  That being said, I do like the Isuzu engines (not that
I've worked with the diesels).

>> When was the last time you even SAW a Chevette, junked out or otherwise?
>> They're rarer than Mustangs these days.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> gallon I will probably take the plunge. Is my idea far fetched? Maybe.
> But so is the diesel Mustang.
Kruse - 01 Jan 2006 14:08 GMT
> 1. Find out what sort of diesel engine is a good canidate for the swap (my
> current stage)

Here is your biggest problem. The engine needed to power the weight of
this car (to where it is driveable) would need to weigh about twice of
what is in there now. Lessee, a '71 used a 351, a six banger or if you
were lucky, the 429. If you would put a 6.9/7.3 in there, the brakes,
suspension and steering would fail rather quickly. Diesel engines weigh
a lot more than their gas counterparts and horsepower is usually down
considerably. Do ALL of your homework on this, ask several experienced
diesel mechanics, check the prices of all the parts needed and then,
IMO, back up 5 yards and punt.
KJ.Kate - 01 Jan 2006 13:20 GMT
: > When was the last time you even SAW a Chevette, junked out or otherwise?
: > They're rarer than Mustangs these days.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
: gallon I will probably take the plunge. Is my idea far fetched? Maybe.
: But so is the diesel Mustang.

Did you not notice that diesel went way up too,
and has dropped more slowly than gasoline AND remains at a higher price?

Kate
Kruse - 01 Jan 2006 14:00 GMT
> Did you not notice that diesel went way up too,
> and has dropped more slowly than gasoline AND remains at a higher price?
> Kate

Yea. There are probably a half a dozen reasons for this, including the
time of year when everybody uses heating oil for heating their homes.
(A cousin of diesel fuel) But I think the main one is that the refiners
are being mandated by the EPA to take the sulfer out by late 2006-early
2007 and that will increase the price of it.
On a side note, with you being a Jeep lover, right? A recent 20/20
show, or maybe Dateline, I don't know, did a little bio on the diesel
Jeep. EPA rated at 22 miles per gallon, in reality it got 11. Diesel is
not always the way to go. Especially, IMO in a '71 Mustang.  ;-)
Big Al - 31 Dec 2005 23:12 GMT
> > Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
> > Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> worth. It's probably worth less because I don't think you will listen
> to me anyway.....

There was a guy around here years ago that put a Perkins Diesel out of a
ThermoKing unit in a early Bronco. I guess anything can be done if you're
willing to try hard enough.

Al
Spike - 31 Dec 2005 20:44 GMT
>Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
>Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Former 72 Mustang owner
>Current 93 Escort owner (sucks to be me)

It's absolutely NOT feasible if you want to be respected by anyone who
owns a Mustang!

But, it sounds as if you are bound to try, so I have a nice wooden
stake I am putting a pointy end on... got a water pistol filled with
Holy Water... and just melted down a crucifix to cast a couple of
silver bullets for good measure. And my brother, who lives down south,
is sending me a shipment of garlic. That gives me all the tools needed
to give you a helping hand with the project.

May the Great Kahuna give you the strength to resist!
--

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/Engine_rebuild_006.jpg
rlhaag@cableone.net - 31 Dec 2005 22:06 GMT
Dear Sir: I would suggest dropping a new ford crate motor with a modern
fuel injection system than the diesel engine. If you talk to anyone who
has a ford F250 or F350 the diesel does not get all the great of gas
mileage. I know I am comparing a truck to your mustang but we are
talking a weight issue here. I feel with the advanced technology of the
crate motors thease days you can expect better mileage and performace.
Also, the crate motor may bolt on to your existing tranny without
extensive modification.
RR News - 01 Jan 2006 07:23 GMT
Mostly my interest in biodiesel is about using waste vehicle oil as a fuel
(as opposed to gaining milage with a diesel).  In fact, I don't care that
biodiesel is supposedly better for the environment (Although I believe
diesel produces more particulates than regular unleaded gasoline. (a subject
for another newgroup and/or thread)).

Here in Hawaii, during the short gas crunch, we had fuel prices spike to
almost $4.00 a gallon.  Pacific Biodiesel kept their prices at $2.69 a
gallon.  Granted, since that time, regular unleaded has come down a great
deal, but there is nothing to say they can't jump back up again.  But again,
this really isn't about spending a lot of money to save a little.  The
concept of this project is for my personal satisfaction of running the
vehicle of my dreams (71 Fastback) on a renewable energy source.

These musings of mine will most likely never see the first bolt turned, but
I do want to look into it.  I also agree with you that the crate motor would
be the easiest and economical way to go for a new engine in a old vehicle.
But this current pipe dream is not about easy, economical, or even "smart".

Thank you for your input,
Bruce Lortz

> Dear Sir: I would suggest dropping a new ford crate motor with a modern
> fuel injection system than the diesel engine. If you talk to anyone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Also, the crate motor may bolt on to your existing tranny without
> extensive modification.
Merc - 01 Jan 2006 04:26 GMT
Bill S. is in alt hi po big block ford mercury these days - too many nutjobs
in the the RAMFM.

> Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
> Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Former 72 Mustang owner
> Current 93 Escort owner (sucks to be me)
RR News - 01 Jan 2006 07:13 GMT
Unforutnately, this post would most likely lump me in with the "nutjob"
selection...
(but thanks for the info).

Bruce

> Bill S. is in alt hi po big block ford mercury these days - too many
> nutjobs
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>> Former 72 Mustang owner
>> Current 93 Escort owner (sucks to be me)
Backyard Mechanic - 01 Jan 2006 17:48 GMT
All due respect to Bill S and his expertise and seniority, the REAL issue
was with a certain 'droit de seigneur' that he wielded... which, in turn,
brings OUT the 'nutjobs'.

> Bill S. is in alt hi po big block ford mercury these days - too many
> nutjobs in the the RAMFM.

>> I think my last post to this group was in the year 2000...things have
>> changed.
>>
>> Where is Bill S.?

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

Merc - 01 Jan 2006 19:12 GMT
French for 'The Lord's right'

"> was with a certain 'droit de seigneur' that he wielded... which, in turn,
> brings OUT the 'nutjobs'.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
> you pay..DEAL with it!
351CJ - 02 Jan 2006 04:18 GMT
Well, that too...

The supposed right of a feudal lord to have sexual relations with a vassal's
bride on her wedding night.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=droit%20du%20seigneur

droit du seigneur
SYLLABICATION: droit du seign·eur
PRONUNCIATION:   drwä dü sn-yor
NOUN: The supposed right of a feudal lord to have sexual relations with a
vassal's bride on her wedding night.
ETYMOLOGY: French : droit, right + du, of the + seigneur, lord of a manor.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/49/D0394950.html

> French for 'The Lord's right'
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
>> you pay..DEAL with it!
RR News - 02 Jan 2006 10:19 GMT
Wait a sec....so to get him to answer a post, I have to let him doink my
wife?

This forum has changed....

Bruce "Honey, can you do me a favor?" Lortz

> Well, that too...
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>> Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
>>> you pay..DEAL with it!
cprice@here.com - 02 Jan 2006 04:38 GMT
    Idiot.

> Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
> Mustang.  I've always liked the 71 Fastbacks, and with the added bonus of
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Former 72 Mustang owner
> Current 93 Escort owner (sucks to be me)
Brent P - 02 Jan 2006 06:42 GMT
> Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71 Ford
> Mustang.

It would be far easier to go with an ethanol or E85 converison.

For the last many months diesel has been more expensive than gasoline.
E85 cheaper.

Combine these two factors and a few other things and E85 is the winner IMO.

Another benefit of going ethanol is that it's also a reversible
modification and most of it, (stainless steel fuel lines, higher grade
hoses, seals, etc) doesn't have to be reversed. The heart of the change
is the jets in the carb to deliver a higher volume of fuel.

If I wanted to run a 30+ year old mustang on alternative fuel it would
be E85.
RR News - 02 Jan 2006 10:21 GMT
Availability of BioDiesel makes B100 more appealing to me.  I'm not sure if
Hawaii has ethonol available anywhere.

As stated in a subthread, when prices for regular gas in Hawaii spiked close
to $4.00 a gallon (petrol diesel also jumped up to a similar price range).
Biodiesel was still available for $2.69 a gallon.
Although, I again reiterate that this project is currently nothing more than
idle musings.  Although methanol is used for the production of BioDiesel (or
so I've read), I really don't have an interest in brewing my own.
Apparently Hawaii State law classifies "used cooking oil" as a hazardous
material, and you need a special liscense to haul it away/dispose of it.
Plus, I have a hard time mixing kool-aid properly, no way I'm going to brew
BioDiesel.

I do appreciate the input though, and the talk of stainless steel fuel lines
is something that I've seen mentioned in some BioDiesel forums.  Apparently,
BioDiesel, being a solovent, has a nasty habit of destroying rubber fuel
lines.

Thank you for your input,
Bruce Lortz

>> Just wondering about the feasability of placing a Diesel engine in a 71
>> Ford
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> If I wanted to run a 30+ year old mustang on alternative fuel it would
> be E85.
Ritz - 02 Jan 2006 14:07 GMT
> Availability of BioDiesel makes B100 more appealing to me.  I'm not sure if
> Hawaii has ethonol available anywhere.

Seems like it would be so much easier to pick up an old VW Jetta/Golf
w/existing diesel engine.  I guess if you have sufficient budget and
time, and you don't assign any value to your time, you can make almost
any engine work in almost any car.
Brent P - 02 Jan 2006 22:02 GMT
> Availability of BioDiesel makes B100 more appealing to me.  I'm not sure if
> Hawaii has ethonol available anywhere.

The big sugar planation on maui.

Hawaii can make tons of ethanol which is why they were trying to pass a
state ethanol content law.

RR News - 03 Jan 2006 04:17 GMT
Unfortunately, I live on Oahu, and  I've not heard of any ethanol available
here (although they are trying to produce and ethanol plant down at the
Cambell Industrial Park area).  But BioDiesel is available right now.

Regarding Ritz's post above:  Yes, I've kicked around the idea of buying a
used Mercedes Diesel (1995 range) from E-bay, and experimenting with
BioDiesel.  My funds aren't a HUGE worry to me, but they are finite.  More
important to me is space, I have a two car garage, and enough space for two
extra vehicles in the driveway.  This would prevent me from maintaining two
project vehicles in the garage.

Right now, I've been toying with the idea of using my Escort as a "trial
run" for a biodiesel swap.  If I can source one of the UK 2.0liter Diesels,
this may allow me to whet my teeth on this sort of project.  I already have
the chassis.  I just need an engine now (and knowledge, intelligence, etc
etc).  That being said, perhaps it would be better to look into having a
german made Escort/Focus sent to me with a diesel engine (Although I'm
positive there wouuld be tedious import laws and regulations to work with).

But as always, thank you for your input,
Bruce Lortz

>> Availability of BioDiesel makes B100 more appealing to me.  I'm not sure
>> if
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Hawaii can make tons of ethanol which is why they were trying to pass a
> state ethanol content law.
 
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