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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / May 2006

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Won't start...but turns

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JohnO - 12 May 2006 17:04 GMT
My kid's '79 gave us a new problem yesterday. It wouldn't start in the
morning, classic slow-turnover-looks-like-the-battery-is-dead symptoms.
We charged it all day, and even jumped it from my car, and no go. I
wasn't able to measure the battery voltage during crank...I'll get that
tonight.

I was talking about batteries at dinner, and my wife went out and
bought a new one. Bless herr for trying, but it won't start the car
either, same slow turn symptom. (I charged it for 30 minutes, then
jumped from my car.)

It's been a while since I did this, but I'm looking for a bad ground
connection from the battery, a bad connection at the starter, and if I
recall from many years ago, the solenoid can go bad too, and that's
easy to test. Am I missing anything?

-John O
Backyard Mechanic - 12 May 2006 18:52 GMT
> My kid's '79 gave us a new problem yesterday. It wouldn't start in the
> morning, classic slow-turnover-looks-like-the-battery-is-dead symptoms.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> recall from many years ago, the solenoid can go bad too, and that's
> easy to test. Am I missing anything?

Everything else ruled out, slow crank is either bad cable (relative high
resistance) or dragging starter... most likely the latter.

Bad Connections usually manifest with the 'clack, clack, click..' syndrome

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

JohnO - 12 May 2006 19:21 GMT
> Everything else ruled out, slow crank is either bad cable (relative high
> resistance) or dragging starter... most likely the latter.
>
> Bad Connections usually manifest with the 'clack, clack, click..' syndrome

I'm an experienced electronics guy, so we can measure and test to
eliminate the electrical stuff easily enough.

Starters...I see Autozone has repair kits and such. I'm looking at rain
for the next several days here in SW Michigan, so maybe a home-rebuild
is a good rainy-day project? I mean, there's nothing complicated inside
a starter, right? Or should I just spring the $40 for the whole thing?
Backyard Mechanic - 12 May 2006 21:49 GMT
> I'm an experienced electronics guy, so we can measure and test to
> eliminate the electrical stuff easily enough.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> complicated inside a starter, right? Or should I just spring the $40
> for the whole thing?

Well... rebuilding a starter is one of the nastier jobs you can take on....
but it cant hurt, esp if it's a teaching tool.

But if yours is dragging, it MIGHT have gotten to the point that the shaft
surface is worn enough that it wont last long.

Refurbing your alternator is a good idea.. ie replace brushes, lube rear
bearing

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

JohnO - 13 May 2006 01:22 GMT
> > I'm an experienced electronics guy, so we can measure and test to
> > eliminate the electrical stuff easily enough.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Well... rebuilding a starter is one of the nastier jobs you can take on....
> but it cant hurt, esp if it's a teaching tool.

I'm not looking for punishment, so if you say it's nasty then I'm not
into that just for fun. :-)

> But if yours is dragging, it MIGHT have gotten to the point that the shaft
> surface is worn enough that it wont last long.

I hear ya.

> Refurbing your alternator is a good idea.. ie replace brushes, lube rear
> bearing

That part is definitely not original, someone put a big old honking
alternator in there. No telling its age.

Thanks as usual.

-John O
elaich - 13 May 2006 05:08 GMT
"JohnO" <t696asm@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1147479770.167206.243520
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> That part is definitely not original, someone put a big old honking
> alternator in there. No telling its age.

No, it probably is. My '75 Bobcat with the 2.8 also has a "big honking
alternator." I found out that Ford outsourced a lot of parts during that
era because of their financial woes. A Mopar guy was looking under my hood
and remarked that it's a Mopar alternator, which I already suspected. I
checked, and it's stock for that year and engine. Ford was looking for
cheap parts, and Mopar was quite willing to sell them.
Brent P - 13 May 2006 06:46 GMT
> "JohnO" <t696asm@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1147479770.167206.243520
> @i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> checked, and it's stock for that year and engine. Ford was looking for
> cheap parts, and Mopar was quite willing to sell them.

Or, the supplier that made the alternators for mopar also sold them to
Ford.

In products there are off the shelf parts, somewhat custom parts, and
fully custom parts.

The off the shelf parts are parts the supplier has designed and then
tries to sell to companies that make products they could be used in. For
instance, at my previous employer, I had a need for electrical connectors
that were fluid resistant and could take quite a bit of heat. A connector
company had a line of automotive connectors off the shelf that they sold
to the auto manufacturers that exceeded my requirements but would be
better than designing our own because they were done and automotive
volumes made the price more attractive.

The somewhat custom parts are sometimes unique to a particular
manufacturer, sometimes they become off the shelf parts. I've had
suppliers alter parts slightly to significantly for the needs of the
product I was developing. I believe one such part actually became an off
the shelf part for the supplier.

Custom parts are designed by the buying company's engineers for the most
part and the supplier creates the tooling and produces the part. All of
this is charged to the supplying company. Hence the first two are much
more attractive options when possible because there is no tooling cost
for the first, the second there might be, but often there isn't because
the supplier sees it as something they can add to their catalog.

So, I would bet this giant alternator is something that was just sold to
both ford and mopar by the same company.

Another funny story... My grandmother's tempo needed a new idle air
control valve. I don't feel like trying to get to the dealer's parts
counter when open so I pick one up at NAPA. I go to swap it out and find
that the replacement NAPA brand part is the real ford part with the ford
oval and part number stamps machined off.

Now obviously, ford isn't selling them to NAPA, NAPA is getting them the
same place Ford gets them.
JohnO - 17 May 2006 13:52 GMT
> > I'm an experienced electronics guy, so we can measure and test to
> > eliminate the electrical stuff easily enough.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> But if yours is dragging, it MIGHT have gotten to the point that the shaft
> surface is worn enough that it wont last long.

Finally got the kid motivated to start the job. Starter came out as
easily as I recall from my teen gear-head years.

I tested it by jumping 12 V from an old battery to the housing and the
supply lug, and it sparked nicely but didn't turn. That tells me the
coil (stator? rotor?) is intact but the bearings may be wasted, right?

We had to order one from Autozone, seems there's a run on starters this
week.

-John O
elaich - 12 May 2006 18:57 GMT
"JohnO" <t696asm@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1147449855.988407.185800
@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> It's been a while since I did this, but I'm looking for a bad ground
> connection from the battery, a bad connection at the starter, and if I
> recall from many years ago, the solenoid can go bad too, and that's
> easy to test. Am I missing anything?

More likely a bad starter.
 
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