 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2006Question about the 05+ V6 and Exhaust Systems.
I'm looking at a V6 2006 Pony Package coupe or vert, Auto trans (my wife...I love her but..........!) So anyhow............. I've been doing my homework and have found a number of sites that talk about horsepower gains by adding a "free flow" exhaust system and while I understand what they are talking about and the theory, one thing baffles me. If these systems (Flowmaster etc) can add 15-20HP at the rear wheels, why doesn't Ford just either copy/license the design and do it themselves? I mean pipe is pipe in terms of amount of metal used right? It's the internal stuff that counts, but if you are putting *metal* into the car anyway, how much difference in cost could there be? Comments? Joey Exactly, flow dynamics are no secret. Who do you think has more resources to spend on such things? Ford Motor Company or some comparably much smaller after market parts outfit? How many after market exhaust system customers (percentage wise) do you think are going to pay to dyno their car before and after the change to even know if they have actually gotten any horsepower gain anyway? If Ford could market their 4.6 liter GT at 320 real horsepower for want of a couple minor exhaust system changes, don't you think they would? > I'm looking at a V6 2006 Pony Package coupe or vert, Auto trans (my > wife...I love her but..........!) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Joey no they won't do it. because they are louder and some people don't like that. i have a 2000 GT and after 3 years i put on magnaflow cat backs and you could feel the difference the first time you drove it. a little later i wanted it a little louder. the magnaflow guys said headers would make it louder. i put on BBK equal tuned headers and you could feel that difference the 1st trip out of the driveway. it is puzzling that they didn't take the cheap horsepower for a little more cabin noise. i wish i had put on cat-backs the first week i had it. >Exactly, flow dynamics are no secret. Who do you think has more resources >to spend on such things? Ford Motor Company or some comparably much smaller [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> Joey > I'm looking at a V6 2006 Pony Package coupe or vert, Auto trans (my > wife...I love her but..........!) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Joey Ford has done a lot of research and spent a lot of money to produce a powerful but quiet exhaust. Exhaust changes that produce power, also increase efficiency. SO Ford does all that while not spending a mint and meeting EPA noise standards. Not a bad deal. A simple cat back system does nothing for power production. But they market them because people will buy them. The cat back systems do sound better (IMO), so that may be a good reason to buy it.  Signature.boB Arrived: 2006 FXDI, Red. 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged Stolen 11/26/05 in Denver 1HD1GEL10VY3200010 CO License J5822Z 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast. > I'm looking at a V6 2006 Pony Package coupe or vert, Auto trans (my > wife...I love her but..........!) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If these systems (Flowmaster etc) can add 15-20HP at the rear wheels, why > doesn't Ford just either copy/license the design and do it themselves? you caught them, spinning it up to sell it. doesn't add any HP at all, and if the header pipe is too big, it will screw up the HP. Ford has already squeezed all the HP out of it that is possible. Flowmasters will make it too loud, wake up the neighbors at night. The only way to add meaningful power is adding a supercharger. but then you can get other problems. Best is to read the mags for a year, some articles have build ups while measuring HP per add on. > you caught them, spinning it up to sell it. > doesn't add any HP at all, and if the header pipe is too big, it will screw [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Best is to read the mags for a year, some articles have build ups while > measuring HP per add on. That's kind of the way I figure it. Engines today are not like yesteryear. Today engines are complete, closed loop designs and while improvements certainly can be made, some techniques for achieving said improvements are dubious at best. Take a look at all the idiots running KN filters in their rice burners. Can more cold air make a choked system run better? Sure, but that assumes the system is somehow defective to start with. Some are, and some are not. I have yet to see an unbiased test that shows KN filters better and producing more HP than the stock filter in a well designed system. I have also yet to see an unbiased report that shows KN filters actually filtering better, ignoring HP gains. Seems they tend to show up at the bottom of the pack. Again you are taking about a closed loop servo system and yes while additional chip programming is certainly possible, my question is at what cost? Driveability? Gas Mileage? Reliability? Bottom line is, hasn't Ford already done this research? Wouldn't they love to advertise 20 more hp out of a given car with an exhaust system that has the bends in different places? It would be a marketing bonanza! Conclusion, with the exception of true HP increasing tweaks like turbo, supercharger, nitrous I think most of the other stuff is fluff designed to drain one's wallet. >> you caught them, spinning it up to sell it. >> doesn't add any HP at all, and if the header pipe is too big, it will [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > supercharger, nitrous I think most of the other stuff is fluff designed to > drain one's wallet. Cold air intake may be one to do, if not too pricey, cooler the better, keeps the engine further away from detonation, pings, (I'm in the hot south), If it gets cold air, intake can't be near the hot road surface, and out of the engine compt. Definably if you add a power adder. > I'm looking at a V6 2006 Pony Package coupe or vert, Auto trans (my > wife...I love her but..........!) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Joey Ok... reading everyone's replay so far... I am going to disagree... The stock muffler on the 05+ V6 is terrible! It is very restrictive. One poster mentioned that no one would probably do a back to back dyno.... well. Justin at VMP Tuning did! He dyno'ed the car, removed the muffler and dyno'ed and then finally stuck a GT mufferl on and dyno'ed. His findings confirmed what we found. Here is a clip from his post: "Then I pulled the muffler off, 11rwhp and 7rwtq on top of the CAI, no loss in mid range. Pulled the catback tube off (after the Y pipe), lost TQ. Put the GT muffler on, lost about 1rwhp and 1rwtq over no muffler. The GT muffler is much lighter and larger if you look inside." The entire post is located at: http://www.v6power.net/vb/showthread.php?t=25551 Bottom line: Replace the stock muffler with a inexpensive GT take-off muffler and pick up 10RWHP and 6RWTQ! I put a Magnaflow single on my car and based on the dyno results we picked up about 10RWHP just like Justin. Now here is the part the I'm sure people will jump all over me for.... Now I know the claim and the science sounds like a bunch of HOG WASH... but check out http://www.aeroexhaust.com I know... i didn't believe it either... sounded too good to be true... BUT.. dang if that thing didn't perform! The Aero Turbine picked up 7RWHP and 5RWTQ over the Magnaflow! So you are talking around 15RWHP over stock! Just by ditching the stock muffler! Here is the dyno sheet showing the gain: http://www.tammyandjohn.com/Mustang/Screaming/Images/mrtdyno2.jpg Notice the gains in the 5500+ range! Like I said... I was VERY SKEPTICAL! As matter of fact When Scott Hoag from MRT suggested we put it on my car, I literally laughed at him! The dang thing looks like it belongs on a Civic but dang it sounds great and the performance is unmatched! Luckily its tucked up under the car and you can't really see it! LOL! For the full write up on the MRT Aero-Turbine you can go here: http://www.tammyandjohn.com/Mustang/Screaming/Mustang.htm#muffler Bottom line... The S197 V6 muffler is very restrictive. Putting a descent aftermarket muffler or even a GT take-off muffler (check e-bay) will get you around 10RWHP! You want something that loud and even better performing go with the MRT Aero-Turbine setup... > Ok... reading everyone's replay so far... I am going to disagree... The > stock muffler on the 05+ V6 is terrible! It is very restrictive. One > poster mentioned that no one would probably do a back to back dyno.... > well. Justin at VMP Tuning did! He dyno'ed the car, removed the > muffler and dyno'ed and then finally stuck a GT mufferl on and dyno'ed. > His findings confirmed what we found. Here is a clip from his post: What do you think of this air intake upgrade? Any good? Waste of money? Pretty to look at :) http://www.machperformanceparts.com/mp/54-10291.html?id=P8wM6BLz > > Ok... reading everyone's replay so far... I am going to disagree... The > > stock muffler on the 05+ V6 is terrible! It is very restrictive. One [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.machperformanceparts.com/mp/54-10291.html?id=P8wM6BLz Personally I would stay away from any intake that claim "No Reflash Require"... They'll never live up to their claims and are just not worth it. I would look at a setup that DOES require a reflash... And since you mention you are getting an automatic, I would seriously look at picking up an SCT X-Cal2 handheld tuner... The automatic on the S197 is a great tranny... but Ford really kind of handicapped it in the V6 with the programming. The torque management system (NOT traction control) will prevent the motor from making to much torque in 1st gear giving you a very doggy feel off the line! Once you hit 2nd the car will pull nice and strong leaving you to wonder why it didn't feel that way in 1st!! The other issue is the shifts are VERY SOFT (read SLOW!). The car doesn't feel like it's shifting from gear to gear... it feels like it's sliding from gear to gear! Oh, and it is a bit on the upshift happy side! A good tune will fix those items right up! For an automatic a tune will make a night and day difference! Now back to the intake... actually the stock air box works pretty well... up to about 4,000 RPM... I had a MMR CAI for a while and then switch to the C&L. The C&L does require a reflash (tune). I would recommend going with a SCT X-Cal2/C&L combo package that the most popular tuners offer. Example: Alternative Auto has the combo for $650. Lido from Alternative Auto is also regarded as one of the best automatic guy around! (www.alternativeauto.com). >> I'm looking at a V6 2006 Pony Package coupe or vert, Auto trans (my >> wife...I love her but..........!) [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Bottom line: Replace the stock muffler with a inexpensive GT take-off > muffler and pick up 10RWHP and 6RWTQ! Your post reinforces exactly what I said, even without an exhaust system (best case scenario?) there is no where near 20 horse power to be had by changing exhaust systems, period. And that gain comes with the cost of how much increase in noise, 4 times??? 10 times??? LOL "Put the GT muffler on, lost about 1rwhp and 1rwtq over no muffler." If you want to drive around in what amounts to an unmuffled (read illegal in most jurisdictions) car for 10RWHP and 6RWTQ have at it, that is simply foolish, to say nothing of the accompanying permanent hearing loss. > I put a Magnaflow single on my car and based on the dyno results we > picked up about 10RWHP just like Justin. Now here is the part the I'm [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > will get you around 10RWHP! You want something that loud and even > better performing go with the MRT Aero-Turbine setup... > Your post reinforces exactly what I said, even without an exhaust system > (best case scenario?) there is no where near 20 horse power to be had by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > most jurisdictions) car for 10RWHP and 6RWTQ have at it, that is simply > foolish, to say nothing of the accompanying permanent hearing loss. Acutally I'm pointing out that the stock muffler on a S197 is very restrictive and that you can pick up 10RWHP for very little money... Most people assume that replacing the stock muffler will show no performance gains... this may have been true in previous generations but on the S197 V6 it is not the case.... That is my point... The stock muffler is not optimal for performance. As far as noise... have you driven a S197 V6? At idle you can barely tell if it's running! LOL! And I thought we were talking performance..... increase performance comes at the expense of a high noise level... Acutally the cats and the Y-pipe quiet the 4.0L down enough you could run with no muffler and I doubt you would get pulled over! LOL! I really doubt anyone is going to suffer hearing loss! We are not talking open headers here! LOL! And actually putting an Aero-Turbine muffler outperforms having NO MUFFLER! The science behind it actually works! Has to do with being based on the Ventur effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi). I've had my MRT Aero-Turbine setup on since last fall. Is it loud? You bet! Does it out perform the stock muffler! Absolutely!!! Does it live up to it's hype? Sure, does! I even PAID for dyno time out of my own pocket to verify what my butt dyno was telling me! The dyno pulls were done at Alternative Auto as opposed to MRT in order to keep it as fair and unbiased as possible! Compared to stock the gain is easily 15RWHP! And for $225 that's a bargin! >> Your post reinforces exactly what I said, even without an exhaust system >> (best case scenario?) there is no where near 20 horse power to be had by [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > fair and unbiased as possible! Compared to stock the gain is easily > 15RWHP! And for $225 that's a bargin! So am I correct to deduce that your engine spends most of its time above 5500 rpm? How else would this whopping 15RWHP! make any difference. Gaining 15hp @ almost 6000 rpm is basically worthless...your motor doesn't spend enough time there to make a significant impact. If it does, get ready for a new set of rod bearings every 30k. Dyno runs are fine and dandy but you have to use a bit of common sense in reading the results. Just because you see a +15hp gain on the slip doesn't mean that it will actually display any observable difference in actual performance (especially when the peaks are at the extreme ends of the rpm range). (*> > So am I correct to deduce that your engine spends most of its time above 5500 rpm? > How else would this whopping 15RWHP! make any difference. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > (*> The muffler gives a measurable gain across the entire RPM range, not just at 6000 RPM. Peak HP is at about 5300 RPM. Above 5500 the Aeroturbine shows even more of a gain but by then the HP is starting to come down. In the 1/4 my car spends it's time between 4800 and 5900... so the extra 15RWHP definitely has an impact... >> So am I correct to deduce that your engine spends most of its time above 5500 >> rpm? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > In the 1/4 my car spends it's time between 4800 and 5900... so the > extra 15RWHP definitely has an impact... A measurable yet insignificant amount over 90% of the rpm range. Sounds like a waste of money to me. What real world difference do you see in ET and trap speed? The weather will have more of an impact on your times than a different muffler. (*> > >> So am I correct to deduce that your engine spends most of its time above 5500 > >> rpm? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > (*> Insignificant? By itself perhaps.. but a couple of HP here and a couple of HP here add up... |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.