Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2006
88 5.0 failed emmisions.
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Cameron - 02 Aug 2006 16:46 GMT Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the use 88 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the emmisions tested and failed (Tennessee). HC: 1446 (max allowable 220) CO: 2.35 (max allowable 1.20)
I emailed the guy I bought it from and asked him if he had done any mods or disconnected anything that might cause me to be dumping so much gas. I'm getting about 30-40miles for half a tank. He said he "put a 160 degree t-stat in it for more power. That keeps it in openloop at idle which is a very rich condition. Try putting in a 180 or 190."
Would just the thermostat cause it to dump hat much fuel and get readings that bad? What is the stock thermostat rated for and I'll pick one of those up at autozone? I have been driving it out in the hot sun with the AC on and I haven't notice it running any hotter than my other mustang.
If the t-stat woldnt cause this much of a bad reading then I can take it to the local BP shop and for $70 they said they can debug the vehicle and tell me exactly whats wrong that is causing me to fail.
Thanks! --Cameron
Michael Johnson, PE - 02 Aug 2006 18:01 GMT > Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the use 88 > 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the emmisions [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the local BP shop and for $70 they said they can debug the vehicle and tell > me exactly whats wrong that is causing me to fail. The computer will cause the engine to run rich until the normal engine operating temperature is reached which is approximately 190 degrees. Running rich will definitely affect the emissions readings. Also, running the engine cooler causes more wear on metal parts and bearing surfaces. You should change back to the OEM thermostat for this reason alone. It could very well solve your emissions problems too. Until the thermostat is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still fails the test then run the codes.
Cameron - 02 Aug 2006 18:17 GMT Thanks for that info. I will 100% be slapping a new $5 thermostat from autozone in there today. I was just wondering if that alone could cause such a drastic bad reading?
Is there any way a regular guy like me could tell if it's helping alot, once I put the stat in, before I take it back to the emissions place?
I figure I will dump some fuel injector cleaner in there while I'm at it and maybe change all the spark plugs. Then I'll fill the tank back up and cruise around for a bit. If I drive 20 miles and dont use much gas then I can assume it's better and I'll try the emissions test again tomorrow.
> The computer will cause the engine to run rich until the normal engine > operating temperature is reached which is approximately 190 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still > fails the test then run the codes. Michael Johnson, PE - 02 Aug 2006 18:35 GMT > Thanks for that info. I will 100% be slapping a new $5 thermostat from > autozone in there today. I was just wondering if that alone could cause > such a drastic bad reading? > > Is there any way a regular guy like me could tell if it's helping alot, once > I put the stat in, before I take it back to the emissions place? If a car is running rich you will see black smoke coming out of the tail pipes and/or have a faint oder of gasoline. Other than this you will need the emissions test to be sure.
> I figure I will dump some fuel injector cleaner in there while I'm at it and > maybe change all the spark plugs. Then I'll fill the tank back up and > cruise around for a bit. If I drive 20 miles and dont use much gas then I > can assume it's better and I'll try the emissions test again tomorrow. An improvement in gas mileage could be another indicator. As for fuel injector cleaner, I suggest getting a can of BG fuel injector cleaner. It is a little pricey at $20/can but it works much better than the cheap brands sold at auto parts stores.
>> The computer will cause the engine to run rich until the normal engine >> operating temperature is reached which is approximately 190 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still >> fails the test then run the codes. Cameron - 02 Aug 2006 19:23 GMT So if I run the car at idle in tmy driveway with the bunk thermostat in I should see a little smoke and maybe smell some gas?
I havnt notice any driving around town, but then again I wasnt behind the car looking at the exhaust.
>> Thanks for that info. I will 100% be slapping a new $5 thermostat from >> autozone in there today. I was just wondering if that alone could cause [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>> thermostat is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If >>> it still fails the test then run the codes. Michael Johnson, PE - 02 Aug 2006 19:38 GMT > So if I run the car at idle in tmy driveway with the bunk thermostat in I > should see a little smoke and maybe smell some gas? If it is running very rich you should.
> I havnt notice any driving around town, but then again I wasnt behind the > car looking at the exhaust. One other thing to do is disconnect the battery for 30 minutes while changing the thermostat. This will clear the computer buffer and allow it to relearn your driving habits based on the new operating temperatures. Drive it around a few days before doing the emissions test.
>>> Thanks for that info. I will 100% be slapping a new $5 thermostat from >>> autozone in there today. I was just wondering if that alone could cause [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>>> thermostat is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If >>>> it still fails the test then run the codes. Zmegile - 02 Aug 2006 23:30 GMT >> Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the use >> 88 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > operating temperature is reached which is approximately 190 degrees. > Running rich will definitely affect the emissions readings. 160 is too low, you can do a 180, water will still get up to 210. The thermostat just opens at 180, dosent keep the engine @180 it is just when it opens the engine will still climb on up in temperature.
>Also, running the engine cooler causes more wear on metal parts and bearing >surfaces. Not that much, oil has almost the same properties over a 50 degree range.
>You should change back to the OEM thermostat for this reason alone. It >could very well solve your emissions problems too. Until the thermostat is >replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still fails >the test then run the codes. Michael Johnson, PE - 03 Aug 2006 01:04 GMT >>> Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the use >>> 88 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The thermostat just opens at 180, dosent keep the engine @180 it is just > when it opens the engine will still climb on up in temperature. If the cooling system is operating properly the temperature doesn't fluctuate much at all. It should be very near the thermostat rating under most driving conditions.
>> Also, running the engine cooler causes more wear on metal parts and bearing >> surfaces. > > Not that much, oil has almost the same properties over a 50 degree range. It isn't the oil as much as it is the temperature of the metal. Tolerances are set assuming the engine will operate at certain temperatures.
>> You should change back to the OEM thermostat for this reason alone. It >> could very well solve your emissions problems too. Until the thermostat is >> replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still fails >> the test then run the codes. Zmegile - 03 Aug 2006 01:54 GMT >>>> Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the >>>> use 88 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > fluctuate much at all. It should be very near the thermostat rating under > most driving conditions. try measuring it, instead of guessing.
>>> Also, running the engine cooler causes more wear on metal parts and >>> bearing surfaces. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It isn't the oil as much as it is the temperature of the metal. Tolerances > are set assuming the engine will operate at certain temperatures. When metal heats up it expands, not contract, therefore clearance will be fine from 160 to 220 range. How much will it expand ? less than 0.01 thousandth of an inch for steel. People measure clearances when engine is cold.
>>> You should change back to the OEM thermostat for this reason alone. It >>> could very well solve your emissions problems too. Until the thermostat >>> is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still >>> fails the test then run the codes. Michael Johnson, PE - 03 Aug 2006 02:25 GMT >>>>> Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the >>>>> use 88 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > try measuring it, instead of guessing. I have. A properly functioning cooling system will see little fluctuation under most operating conditions.
>>>> Also, running the engine cooler causes more wear on metal parts and >>>> bearing surfaces. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > How much will it expand ? less than 0.01 thousandth of an inch for steel. > People measure clearances when engine is cold. Clearances between dissimilar metals vary with temperature because they expand at different rates. The engine was designed to operate at a specific temperature. For an older 302 the tolerances were more forgiving but in todays engines tolerances are tighter and operating at the specified temperature is more critical. Also, running the engine rich washes down the cylinder walls so there is less oil available for lubrication. Over time, this can increase wear on the cylinder walls.
>>>> You should change back to the OEM thermostat for this reason alone. It >>>> could very well solve your emissions problems too. Until the thermostat >>>> is replaced I wouldn't even bother with running the codes. If it still >>>> fails the test then run the codes. Cameron - 03 Aug 2006 04:41 GMT I've changed the 160 stat out with a stock 190 one. We will see tomorrow morning when I get it tested again what my results are. :-)
Cameron - 03 Aug 2006 14:25 GMT With 160 stat: HC: 1446 (max allowable 220) CO: 2.35 (max allowable 1.20)
With 190stat today: HC: 651 (max allowable 220) FAIL CO: 0.22 (max allowable 1.20) PASS
The stat makes a gigantic difference. The guy at the emissions place said that I should just run a bottle of "Guaranteed to Pass" through. So I have bought a bottle of that crap for $10 and will run it trough most of a tank today. I asked the guy at Advanced Auto and he thinks it will pass too by using that.
Anyone had luck with that type of a product? Worst case I'm out $10 and have to still get it checked out by a mechanic.
--C
> I've changed the 160 stat out with a stock 190 one. We will see tomorrow > morning when I get it tested again what my results are. :-) Michael Johnson, PE - 03 Aug 2006 20:32 GMT > With 160 stat: > HC: 1446 (max allowable 220) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > today. I asked the guy at Advanced Auto and he thinks it will pass too by > using that. Did you disconnect the computer and drive the car for a couple hundred miles before the test?
> Anyone had luck with that type of a product? Worst case I'm out $10 and > have to still get it checked out by a mechanic. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> I've changed the 160 stat out with a stock 190 one. We will see tomorrow >> morning when I get it tested again what my results are. :-) Cameron - 03 Aug 2006 20:52 GMT > Did you disconnect the computer and drive the car for a couple hundred > miles before the test? No I did not. I am not even sure what you mean by "the computer". I did not leave the battery unhooked before the test. The don't hook into a computer on a 88 for the emissions test, they put a thing in the tailpipe.
I'm not sure how I would drive it a couple hundred miles either without getting harassed by the fuz.
Michael Johnson, PE - 03 Aug 2006 22:14 GMT >> Did you disconnect the computer and drive the car for a couple hundred >> miles before the test? > > No I did not. I am not even sure what you mean by "the computer". I did > not leave the battery unhooked before the test. The don't hook into a > computer on a 88 for the emissions test, they put a thing in the tailpipe. The computer stores information obtained while driving in a memory buffer that it uses to anticipate your driving habits. Since the engine was running very rich the buffer probably contains data that isn't up to date now the thermostat has be changed. Disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes clears all the stored data and allows the computer to recompile it based on the current operating parameters. You should do this before the next test. I'm not telling you these things just to send you on a wild goose chase. ;)
> I'm not sure how I would drive it a couple hundred miles either without > getting harassed by the fuz. Can't help you on this one.
Cameron - 04 Aug 2006 00:04 GMT Oh, if thats all it takes then I'll leave the battery unhooked before I run out the half tank of gas left in it. Then tomorrow I'll fill her up and go over for my next test.
If I still fail (hopefully not) I found a place that will inspect it for free the cause of the problem that I'll take it to. I'll report back in the morning.
>>> Did you disconnect the computer and drive the car for a couple hundred >>> miles before the test? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > next test. I'm not telling you these things just to send you on a wild > goose chase. ;) Howard Nelson - 04 Aug 2006 00:16 GMT > Oh, if thats all it takes then I'll leave the battery unhooked before I run > out the half tank of gas left in it. Then tomorrow I'll fill her up and go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > free the cause of the problem that I'll take it to. I'll report back in the > morning. The posters keep trying but here are steps again (with reasons for each)
1. disconnect battery or pull computer fuse for 10-15 minutes. This erases computer memory.
2. Drive car at least 20-30 mins normal driving cycle. Stop/go, city streets, some 55mph+. This causes the computer to reprogram itself to the input it is getting from various sensors (temp, O2 probe, knock sensor, MAF, etc) and adjust ignition and fuel injection for most efficient operation
Both of these steps are important. If you just clear the computer then it starts of in what might best be called a "fail safe mode" which is rather inefficient and may result in increased emmissions.
Best of luck Howard 1989 5.0
KEITH MCCUMBER - 15 Aug 2006 09:34 GMT You also want to set the timing, pull the SPOUT connector before doing so or your initial setting (the one the computer uses to determine the advance.) will be off.
> > Oh, if thats all it takes then I'll leave the battery unhooked before I > run [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Howard > 1989 5.0 Kate - 03 Aug 2006 19:55 GMT Huh! I sure am glad I live in Henderson county! No smog tests here, yet. Not that it's a concern on either of ours, but the expense and hassle is what I hated
Kate
> Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the use > 88 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks! > --Cameron Michael Johnson, PE - 03 Aug 2006 20:33 GMT Indiana has no smog tests or annual inspection. :)
> Huh! > I sure am glad I live in Henderson county! No smog tests here, yet. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> Thanks! >> --Cameron Cameron - 04 Aug 2006 16:32 GMT Failed. Today I drove it for about 30 minutes after unhooking the battery for 30 minutes. I also filled up a new tank of gas after the tank with the "Guaranteed not to pass" was almost empty.
The HC was 691 where yesterday it was 651 and the CO was .44 where yesterday it was .22. I drove downdown to the FREE mechanic paid by the state that will tell you whats wrong. What a waste of time, he couldnt tell me anything. But at that place my HC reading was back in the 1300s and the CO was 2.0.
I have the mustang now at a local mechanic that says for $70 he can tell me whats wrong, or whats leaking, etc. If that fails I guess anyone that wants a nice t-top mustang that will never pass emissions can buy one on ebay from me.
--C
Michael Johnson, PE - 04 Aug 2006 17:44 GMT > Failed. Today I drove it for about 30 minutes after unhooking the battery > for 30 minutes. I also filled up a new tank of gas after the tank with the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a nice t-top mustang that will never pass emissions can buy one on ebay from > me. I doubt the problem(s) causing it to fail emissions is that severe. It might need the throttle body cleaned, the O2 sensors replaced, MAF element cleaned, spark plugs or other light maintenance type repairs. If the car runs good and burns little oil then the fix should be relatively routine and inexpensive. Don't give up on the car so easily.
JohnV@nn - 04 Aug 2006 18:58 GMT > Failed. Today I drove it for about 30 minutes after unhooking the battery > for 30 minutes. I also filled up a new tank of gas after the tank with the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a nice t-top mustang that will never pass emissions can buy one on ebay from > me. What's the condition of the cats? I don't suppose there's an "off-road" H-pipe under there?
Cameron - 04 Aug 2006 21:52 GMT The previous owner had a H-pipe under there for around the last 15 years. He had kept the cats and the o2 sensors all of this time. We put all that back up under the car. So maybe the cats are still good and the o2 sensors have gone bad.
> What's the condition of the cats? I don't suppose there's an > "off-road" H-pipe under there? Michael Johnson, PE - 05 Aug 2006 00:00 GMT Keep in mind that the car is 18 years old. Items like O2 sensors etc. weren't meant to last forever. There will probably be many little things that will need replaced/fixed as you drive the car more.
> The previous owner had a H-pipe under there for around the last 15 years. > He had kept the cats and the o2 sensors all of this time. We put all that > back up under the car. So maybe the cats are still good and the o2 sensors > have gone bad. >> What's the condition of the cats? I don't suppose there's an >> "off-road" H-pipe under there? JohnV@nn - 05 Aug 2006 00:40 GMT Have you replaced plugs/wires/dist cap/rotor/PCV valve? Is timing set properly?
> The previous owner had a H-pipe under there for around the last 15 years. > He had kept the cats and the o2 sensors all of this time. We put all that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What's the condition of the cats? I don't suppose there's an > > "off-road" H-pipe under there? Cameron - 05 Aug 2006 01:07 GMT Plugs and Wires are good, dont know about the other things. I'm trying to do the minimum here to get it to pass emissions and not to restore the car to awesome status. My fear is I will spend $500 replacing various old components that may or may not be bad and then end up needing one giant engine repair that I'm not willing to do and end up having to sell the car with wasted money into it.
Once I get this bad boy to pass emissions then its time to tune it up to fine status.
> Have you replaced plugs/wires/dist cap/rotor/PCV valve? Is timing set > properly? KEITH MCCUMBER - 15 Aug 2006 09:34 GMT Is the AIR still plumbed into the exhaust, if the cats were off all this time it seems reasonable that the former owner would have removed the AIR pump too.
> Plugs and Wires are good, dont know about the other things. I'm trying to > do the minimum here to get it to pass emissions and not to restore the car [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Have you replaced plugs/wires/dist cap/rotor/PCV valve? Is timing set > > properly? BradandBrooks - 05 Aug 2006 04:12 GMT Have you considering just cracking the bolts somewhere in the exhaust JUST A BIT to let a little some exhaust out? And lower the timing.
Brad
Failed. Today I drove it for about 30 minutes after unhooking the battery for 30 minutes. I also filled up a new tank of gas after the tank with the "Guaranteed not to pass" was almost empty.
The HC was 691 where yesterday it was 651 and the CO was .44 where yesterday it was .22. I drove downdown to the FREE mechanic paid by the state that will tell you whats wrong. What a waste of time, he couldnt tell me anything. But at that place my HC reading was back in the 1300s and the CO was 2.0.
I have the mustang now at a local mechanic that says for $70 he can tell me whats wrong, or whats leaking, etc. If that fails I guess anyone that wants a nice t-top mustang that will never pass emissions can buy one on ebay from me.
--C
JohnV@nn - 05 Aug 2006 00:21 GMT Pinched this from a usenet post, may be helpful. - John V
==================================== Emission (smog) test problems. ==============================
What to look for when any of CO, HC, NOx too high.
CO: rich fuel mixture HC: incomplete combustion NOx: hot combustion and rich fuel mixture CO, HC, and NOx: incomplete exhaust conversion
80%-85% of vehicles pass emissions tests. an in-tune well-maintained vehicle should pass. allowances are made for the age of the vehicle. for the rest some details are provded below.
note that both CO and HC rise in the absence of O2 (oxygen) in combustion and in exhaust, and that NOx rises in the abscence of O2 at high combustion temperature. HC also rises when there is too much O2 in combustion.
1. CO (carbon monoxide) too high. ---------------------------------
causes:
a) not enough air (oxygen) in air/fuel mixture to make carbon dioxide (CO2) so get carbon monoxide (CO) instead (mixture too rich). can be too little air or too much fuel in mixture.
b) not enough air (oxygen) in exhaust system to convert CO to CO2
c) faulty catalytic converter.
look for:
a) too little air - dirty air filter, stuck choke, plugged or sticking PCV or EGR system, plugged carbuettor or injector air passage
b) too much fuel - carburettor or fuel injection system supplying too much fuel
c) too little air or too much fuel - engine control system - vacuum hoses, sensors (eg exhaust oxygen, temperature, air flow), computer, actuators (eg fuel metering solenoid, air metering solenoids), wires and connections (control system voltages are so low that small resistances from dirty or loose connections make a big difference), the computer uses the input from the sensors to send signals to the actuators to keep the air/fuel mixture at the optimum for power, fuel efficiency, and low emissions.
d) too little air in exhaust system - restricted outside air feed to converter (eg air pump or pulse air system - hoses, electrical connections, valve, pump, drive belt, sensors)
2. HC (hydrocarbons, ie unburned fuel) too high. ------------------------------------------------
causes:
a) not enough oxygen in combustion to burn all the fuel, or too much fuel (mixture too rich), so excess fuel blows out exhaust.
b) too much oxygen in combustion or too little fuel (mixture too lean) for uninterrupted combustion (engine misses), so unburned fuel blows out exhaust.
c) sparkplugs not firing properly to ignite air/fuel mixture (ignition system), so unburned fuel blows out exhaust.
d) combustion chamber too cold for complete combustion, so unburned fuel blows out exhaust.
e) combustion chamber hot spots preventing complete combustion, so unburned fuel blows out exhaust.
f) not enough air (oxygen) in exhaust system to convert HC to H2O and CO2.
g) faulty catalytic converter.
note that HC in exhaust can combine with S (sulphur) from fuel to produce rotten egg smell.
look for: ---------
a) mixture too rich - see a,b,c in CO section above. note that if HC is too high but CO is okay then the problem is not a rich mixture.
b) too much oxygen in combustion - leaks of air (hoses, gaskets) and routing of hoses into intake manifold, leaks in EGR and PCV valves
c) too little fuel - dirt in fuel/filtre/tank/lines, leaks in fuel lines or connections, weak fuel pump, - mechnical problems in carburettor (dirty valves or passages or linkages, worn parts or gaskets) or fuel injection system
d) too much air or too little fuel - computer not mixing air and fuel properly (see c in CO section above)
d) ignition system - sparkplugs fouled (type of fouling may indicate problem), poor contact or insulation in high voltage ignition wires or in distributor (cap, rotor), poor contact in coil wires, low voltage in charging system (alternator, regulator), faulty transistorized ignition control module
e) combustion chamber too cold - sticking EGR valve or sitcking cylinder exhaust valve or bad cylinder valve timming letting "cooler" exhaust gas into the combustion chamber.
f) combustion chamber hot spots - bits of junk (dirt, carbon) or nicked or burned metal parts glowing red hot in combustion chamber and igniting air/fuel mixture (engine misses) - can use chemical cleaner in combustion chamber or take engine out on the highway or both to burn off junk - overhaul engine to remove nicked or burned metal parts or hardened junk
g) too little air in exhaust system - see d in CO section above.
3. NOx (oxides of nitrogen) too high: -------------------------------------
causes:
a) too much heat in combustion chamber - air contains about 78% N2 (nitrogen gas) which becomes chemically unstable above 2500 def F and combines with O2 (oxygen, making up about 21% of air) to form NO which, released into the atmosphere, forms NO2 which in the presence of sunlight combines with HC (hydrocarbons) to form smog. note that NOx only happens when engine is under load (car at crusing speed on road or rollers).
b) too much CO in exhaust (CO enhances the conversion of NO to NO2).
look for:
a) too much heat in combustion chamber - the EGR system or the valve timing is used to bring exhaust gas back into the combustion chamber to cool it off when the engine is hot under load at cruising speed - check the EGR system valves, solenoids, wiring, hoses - if the car does not have an EGR system check valve timing - (engine cooling (water) and lubricating (oil) systems may have some effect on combustion chamber temperature?)
b) computerized engine control system - adjusts engine operation to minimize emissions (see c in CO section above).
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sources:
"Automechanics" (Prentice-Hall, 1988) "Import Car Manual 1983-1990" (Chilton, 1989)
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> Hey all! You probably have been seeing all my recent posts about the use 88 > 5.0 with t-tops that I just bought. I took it today to get the emmisions [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks! > --Cameron Cameron - 05 Aug 2006 02:45 GMT :-) that lists about a billion things
> Pinched this from a usenet post, may be helpful. > - John V [quoted text clipped - 188 lines] >> Thanks! >> --Cameron
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