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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / July 2007

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Chrysler Imperial smothered in the crib; Challenger next?

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one80out@hotmail.com - 18 Jul 2007 22:32 GMT
Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the 35
mpg CAFE the Church of Green is poised to enact, Chrysler has
cancelled the '09 Imperial.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070718/AUTO01/707180384

I guess the one thousand assembly line workers that Chrysler would
have hired to build this new car, plus additional employment at
various parts suppliers, will have to keep waiting for the bounty of
new jobs the Greenies promise are going to gush forth -- one of these
days -- from this brave new carbon-neutral economy.

I have doubted that the "2008" Challenger would see the light of day,
ever since these Cerberus boys bought Mopar.  This cancellation of the
Imperial is not encouraging.

180 Out
Michael Johnson - 18 Jul 2007 23:07 GMT
> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the 35
> mpg CAFE the Church of Green is poised to enact, Chrysler has
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> ever since these Cerberus boys bought Mopar.  This cancellation of the
> Imperial is not encouraging.

My guess is they are going to have to use their investment money wisely.
 I think they need to invest in bread and butter cars before producing
flashy ones.  Cerberus can really make a mark, IMO, if they offer a high
mileage, well equipped hybrid and/or a 40+ mpg conventional car.  Maybe
even offer a turbo diesel.  Also, don't make it a small box.  They
produce a car like this and market it as green, American born and very
frugal on gas it will be a hit.  Then they can bring out the fluff cars.
 Heck, they can produce green sports cars for that matter.
one80out@hotmail.com - 19 Jul 2007 16:20 GMT
> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the 35
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> frugal on gas it will be a hit.  Then they can bring out the fluff cars.
>   Heck, they can produce green sports cars for that matter.

The problem with such all-new product is the amount of lead time
needed -- a minimum of three years for the kind of cars and the new-to-
Mopar powertrains you mention. "Turn-around" specialists aren't known
for their lengthy attention spans.

I agree, though, that the market is out there for a large (Charger-
sized) 40 mpg sedan.  Diesels -- and a crash-course diet -- can get
you there, but I don't think the US market is ready for diesels in
large volumes.  I think the small displacement, high compression turbo
gas engine, with pure ethanol injection for ping control, shows
promise.  The biggest problem is the availability of fueling stations.

As for hybrids, it's high time somebody came out with a plug-in
hybrid.  There are mom and pop operations here in Nor Cal who convert
Priuses and others to plug-in operation.  So why don't the big boys
give it a whirl?  If you've already got the electric motor and the
braking regeneration and the computer controls, all you gotta do is
piggyback more storage capacity -- aka batteries -- onto  the existing
system.  Starting out each day with a full overnight charge, these
cars give 130 to 150 miles on the first gallon of gas.  After that,
after the batteries are drained of the overnight charge, they revert
to normal hybrid operation, i.e., a comparatively thirsty 45 mpg in
the case of the Prius. You could also recharge at work, and on a
typical commute day you would never exhaust the battery pack.  Unlike
the straight electric car, there is never any danger of being stranded
with dead batteries.  You  can still drive a plug-in hybrid coast-to-
coast.

So there you have it, the Hemi plug-in hybrid, Chrysler's path to
salvation.

180 Out
Michael Johnson - 19 Jul 2007 18:41 GMT
>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the 35
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Mopar powertrains you mention. "Turn-around" specialists aren't known
> for their lengthy attention spans.

This is where they need to change the corporate mentality.  They need to
be more into long term thinking like the Japanese.  They won't spit this
 type of car out tomorrow but it can be delivered in 2-3 years.  It
would also put them on the forefront of the green movement and provide
economy, which is really what will drive sales.  I'm convinced the days
of sub $2/gallon gasoline are gone forever.  This being the case, I
think the public is ripe for the option of a frugal decent sized sedan.

> I agree, though, that the market is out there for a large (Charger-
> sized) 40 mpg sedan.  Diesels -- and a crash-course diet -- can get
> you there, but I don't think the US market is ready for diesels in
> large volumes.  I think the small displacement, high compression turbo
> gas engine, with pure ethanol injection for ping control, shows
> promise.  The biggest problem is the availability of fueling stations.

It would be a potential problem but most diesel cars have big tanks and
anywhere close to an interstate should have diesel fuel available.

> As for hybrids, it's high time somebody came out with a plug-in
> hybrid.  There are mom and pop operations here in Nor Cal who convert
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> with dead batteries.  You  can still drive a plug-in hybrid coast-to-
> coast.

The technology exists today to provide a viable plug in car.  Heck, even
the NiMH batteries available today are good enough to provide a decent
range.  Personally, I think the car needs to be full time electric
drive.  This means the gas engine component is intended to run a
generator and not a direct mechanical connection to drive the wheels.
This allows for packaging of these components in a non-conventional way,
reduces weight and makes room for more batteries.  The big nut for them
to crack is to figure out a way to reduce the recharge time to 5-10
minutes.  It will be innovative thinking that is going to save the
domestic auto industry.  They can't beat the Japanese by letting them
set the rules.

> So there you have it, the Hemi plug-in hybrid, Chrysler's path to
> salvation.
Joe - 20 Jul 2007 00:48 GMT
>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>> So there you have it, the Hemi plug-in hybrid, Chrysler's path to
>> salvation.

Unless you're talking about overnight plug-in (i.e., trickle charge),
I'd imagine there are potential issues.  I would guess that pretty high
voltages would be needed for quick-charge, such as what we don't have
readily available yet.

So instead of gas stations, we'll see mega-volt quick-charge stations.  
A "fill up" would be something like $50 for 5 minutes @ 1,000 volts.
Itsfrom Click - 20 Jul 2007 02:19 GMT
just some random thoughts:

 first, I admit I am no expert.

 there are 35-40 mpg cars available right now - but not enough people
buy them........I have plenty of friends and family still buying
Navigator Ls and the like and they don't give a rats behind what the gas
costs.  they don't care that by using twice as much gas as necessary
they are shortening supplies and raising prices for others.  I live near
the Great Lakes:  the average Joes have cut back on their boating in
putt-putts.......the guyz with the 50 footers could care less - Filler
Up !!!!

 still can't figure out where all that clean, green electricity is
going to come from when I plug my car in for its overnight
charge.....somewhere else I guess (as long as it isn't in Teddy
Kennedy's back yard).

 and a hundred years from now the new "Love Canal" will be where all
the old battery packs were dumped.  how much does a battery replacement
cost for some of those cars, anyway.

 I'm an old fart:  my first care was a 10 year old '56 Packard 400 (!)
it weighed 5000 pounds, had a 305 hp, 374 V8, was faster than stink,
huge, comfortable, safe.....and got no less than 15 mpg no matter how I
drove it.  My LHS gets 24-26 on the highway....and 13.5 in
town.......about 3600 pounds, underpowered and slow.......progress?

 it'll never happen, but the only solution is a form of rationing:
everybuddy is entitled to X number of gallons at a decent
price.........you can use it frugally or drive a guzzler and only go
half as far......once you've used your allowance, you can buy more - and
pay thru the nose for it.  ir maybe a total energy allowance:  let
Barbra Steisand lecture us on saving energy in one of her mansions -
with the heat shut off.

,  btw:  ethanol..... my town of 50,000 was glad to hear that we were
going to get an ethanol plant  (although  worries about the price of
corn/soy, cost to feed livestock, cost of dairy, meat etc are concerns).
anyway, the City Fathers in their wisdom sold the company a bunch of
land at about 5% of market value and granted tax abatements and the
usual inducements to build the plant.  then someone took the trouble to
crunch the numbers on the proposal and learned that we don't have enough
electricity, natural gas or water to run the damn thing and the ethanol
it would make would be prohibitely expensive anyway and provide only a
fraction of the energy it would take to make it.........then the
"ethanol" company admitted they didn't have the money to build the plant
anyway.  but now they've got 100 acres of prime land.

........like the old Saturday Night shtick:  "because you'll believe
anything"
Michael Johnson - 20 Jul 2007 02:25 GMT
>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> So instead of gas stations, we'll see mega-volt quick-charge stations.  
> A "fill up" would be something like $50 for 5 minutes @ 1,000 volts.

I'm not sure.  I think it might be more of an amperage thing than
voltage.  If it is voltage then transformers could provide the step up.
 However, they could probably have it so the gas engine runs long
enough to charge the batteries if they are low.  Have the engine
automatically kick on and recharge the batteries while the wife is
shopping for three hours.  When she's done shopping the batteries will
be topped off.   This could be something the driver could toggle on and
off.  Or like I said earlier, have a small 2-3 cylinder gas engine tied
to a generator to supply electricity in a pinch.  The nice thing about
this is the engine would only have to operate within a small rpm range
and this would let it be designed and tuned to run most efficiently like
the current Honda type generators.

Another trick thing to add would be something like a Peltier cooler that
would use the temperature differential between the exhaust gas and the
ambient air to generate electricity from the waste heat from combustion.
 I wonder how much current could be produced this way.  It would help
to increase the overall efficiency when burning gasoline.

Damn, I wish I worked for a car company!  I could keep myself highly
entertained.
Joe - 20 Jul 2007 03:27 GMT
>>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
> I'm not sure.  I think it might be more of an amperage thing than
> voltage.  If it is voltage then transformers could provide the step up.

Michael, you're the engineer - I'm just guessing.  I'll have to ask my
son about the voltage/amperage thing, as he's way into the electric
thing with his RC cars.

>   However, they could probably have it so the gas engine runs long
> enough to charge the batteries if they are low.  Have the engine
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and this would let it be designed and tuned to run most efficiently like
> the current Honda type generators.

No gas engines.  We're going totally green here, at least as far as the
vehicle is concerned.  We can tackle the problem of the energy source
for making the batteries (Les' Battery Fairy) later.

> Another trick thing to add would be something like a Peltier cooler that
> would use the temperature differential between the exhaust gas and the
> ambient air to generate electricity from the waste heat from combustion.
>   I wonder how much current could be produced this way.  It would help
> to increase the overall efficiency when burning gasoline.

NO gas!  Internal combustion is kaput.  ;)

> Damn, I wish I worked for a car company!  I could keep myself highly
> entertained.

I'm telling you - the MJ Roadster has a nice ring to it.  Painstakingly
and lovingly built by MJ Motors, Inc.  An American company and proud of
it.

I'll bill you for marketing later.  ;)
Michael Johnson - 20 Jul 2007 04:58 GMT
>>>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> son about the voltage/amperage thing, as he's way into the electric
> thing with his RC cars.

The trouble is I'm not an electrical engineer.  The last in depth
exposure I had to electrical principles was my sophomore year in college
over two decades ago.

>>   However, they could probably have it so the gas engine runs long
>> enough to charge the batteries if they are low.  Have the engine
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> vehicle is concerned.  We can tackle the problem of the energy source
> for making the batteries (Les' Battery Fairy) later.

I think giving that safety net of an on board gasoline engine driven
generator is going to be a requirement initially.  Mainly because many
women will not want the possibility of getting stranded with dead
batteries.  A driver that recharges judiciously at home may never need
to use the gas engine.

>> Another trick thing to add would be something like a Peltier cooler
> that
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and lovingly built by MJ Motors, Inc.  An American company and proud of
> it.

I'm not smart or rich enough to pull that off.

> I'll bill you for marketing later.  ;)

Did I mention I'm not rich enough?
Joe - 20 Jul 2007 17:56 GMT
>>>>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the
[quoted text clipped - 153 lines]
>
> I'm not smart or rich enough to pull that off.

You don't have to be either - all you need is the original idea.  Just
convince one of those VC guys how good it is and the rest will follow.

>> I'll bill you for marketing later.  ;)
>
> Did I mention I'm not rich enough?

You could be...   ;)
one80out@hotmail.com - 20 Jul 2007 19:34 GMT
> >>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 200 lines]
>
> You could be...   ;)

By coincidence, the SF Chronicle today -- Friday July 20 -- includes
this front page story on a study of plug-in hybrids released yesterday
in D.C.:   http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/07/20/MNGT7R3OH81.DTL
The study concludes that a fleet with 60% plug-in hybrids would cut
oil consumption by 3 to 4 million barrels per day by 2050.  (Today's
rate is 21 million/day.)  But it would require only a 7 to 8 percent
increase in generation capacity, because most recharging happens at
night when demand is low.  The study claims that emissions of
pollution and greenhouse gas would decrease significantly. By 2050,
the GHG reduction would be the equivlent of taking 82.5 million cars
off the road.

Apparently the GM "Volt" plug-in hybrid prototype is already using the
Michael Johnson concept of hybrid featuring an electric-only
drivetrain with a gas engine to run a generator:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2007/07/20/MNGT7R3OH81.DTL&o=1
(Actually, diesel train locomotives have used this system for 50 years
now.)

Regarding funding for mom and pop startups, check this quote from the
main story:  "Google's philanthropic arm, Google.org, announced last
month that it will give $10 million to entrepreneurs to develop
electric hybrids that can get the equivalent of 70 to 100 miles per
gallon of gas."

180 Out
Michael Johnson - 20 Jul 2007 22:14 GMT
>>>>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 203 lines]
> (Actually, diesel train locomotives have used this system for 50 years
> now.)

That is close to what I envisioned but the charge range is pathetic at
40 miles.  I think there is more efficiency to be had from the gasoline
engine running a generator too.  They are moving in the right direction
though.

> Regarding funding for mom and pop startups, check this quote from the
> main story:  "Google's philanthropic arm, Google.org, announced last
> month that it will give $10 million to entrepreneurs to develop
> electric hybrids that can get the equivalent of 70 to 100 miles per
> gallon of gas."

Toyota's Prius will be close to 70 mpg in a few years.  It is already at
60 mpg in the city and 51 on the highway.
one80out@hotmail.com - 20 Jul 2007 22:36 GMT
> one80...@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> > Regarding funding for mom and pop startups, check this quote from the
> > main story:  "Google's philanthropic arm, Google.org, announced last
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Toyota's Prius will be close to 70 mpg in a few years.  It is already at
> 60 mpg in the city and 51 on the highway.

Correction.  Prius' ***EPA mpg numbers*** have been 60 city/51 highway/
55 combined.  These numbers were solely due to the Prius' ability to
game the EPA dynamometer test routine, a routine which had very little
to do with actual driving.  No one has ever achieved 60 city mpg in
the real world.  A new EPA test routine, going into effect for the
2008 model year, puts the Prius at 48/45/46, which is probably pretty
close to its owners' real world experience.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&
model=Prius


Similarly, the Civic Hybrid goes from 49/51/50 to 40/45/42.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Honda&m
odel=Civic%20Hybrid


Now I want to know, when do I get one of the Governator's "diamond
lane" free-pass stickers for my '01 Toyota Echo, which always returns
37 highway mpg under my relentless lead-foot and 42 mpg if I baby it.

180 Out
NoOption5L@aol.com - 20 Jul 2007 03:24 GMT
On Jul 18, 4:32 pm, one80...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the 35
> mpg CAFE the Church of Green is poised to enact, Chrysler has
> cancelled the '09 Imperial.

All I can say is THANK f.cking GOD!  That Imperial was Ipecac syrup on
four wheels.

Patrick
one80out@hotmail.com - 20 Jul 2007 16:20 GMT
On Jul 19, 7:24 pm, NoOptio...@aol.com wrote:
> On Jul 18, 4:32 pm, one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Patrick

Now, now. That's not nice.

180 Out
WindsorFox - 22 Jul 2007 17:29 GMT
> On Jul 18, 4:32 pm, one80...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Patrick

   I don't think it was ugly at all, it looks like a 300 Etc. If you
look back at the Imperials they were always way out there with the
styling, this is kind of tame if you ask me.

Signature

"....a couple of belts of .50 BMG individually
    engraved "Unsubscribe"  - Cadbury Moose

My Name Is Nobody - 20 Jul 2007 19:42 GMT
> Citing the incompatibility of a new heavyweight luxobarge and the 35
> mpg CAFE the Church of Green is poised to enact, Chrysler has
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> 180 Out

Those jobs would have been in Mexico next to their Hemi and pickup jobs
anyway...

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