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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / October 2007really weird 302 problem...
If anyone can help with THIS one... Did an oil change today on my '68, with 5000 on a rebuilt engine. In the fram black top oil filter were found two small pieces of yellowish plastic, about 1/4" long, and half that wide. This also happened with my last oil change, but I passed it off as a piece of debris finding its way from my oil rag onto the filter. The pieces look a bit similar to what you might have come off the plastic collar from a Chevy oil pump (though obviously that isn't what's happening here). Since the pieces were lodged in the small oil galleys of the filter, they appear to somehow be making their way through the oil screen! I am at a total loss as to what the heck is going on. I have not checked the actual oil pressure, but the car runs fine (w/no noise), and the temperature is normal. Anyone ever heard of something like this???? Here is a photo of the two pieces. Although found in different holes of the oil filter, they appear to fit together. You will note a sort of ridge running along the top of the pieces http://centralcal.com/x0.jpg Your pics are fuzzy and grainy.... makes it hard to be real sure.... But I'm going to say that there is a timing chain in your future. I would also recommend dropping the oil pan and inspecting the oil pump for debris and cleaning or replacing the oil pump pick up... > Here is a photo of the two pieces. Although found in different holes of > the oil filter, they appear to fit together. You will note a sort of > ridge running along the top of the pieces > > http://centralcal.com/x0.jpg "Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in news:d4Oni.52470$tB5.35026 @edtnps90: > replacing the oil pump pick up... Definitely replace the pickup. A lot of guys will reuse this if the screen looks clean. What they don't realize is there is a bypass hole way up under the cover, designed to open if the screen ever got really clogged. After years, the screen gets a little floppy and the hole will open up. It took me 2 new oil pumps on my 429 before I got a flashlight and really took a look at that pickup. The bypass hole was wide open, and was letting pieces of old gasket and valve stem seal into the pump proper, thus jamming it.  SignatureA: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? > Here is a photo of the two pieces. Although found in different holes of > the oil filter, they appear to fit together. You will note a sort of > ridge running along the top of the pieces > > http://centralcal.com/x0.jpg The only plastic bits inside the engine that might be that color would be plastic teeth on an old stock timing gear. Signature.boB 2006 FXDI hot rod 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast. timing chain sprockets had plastic on them. I found the same in a rebuild of my '71 302. Scott > If anyone can help with THIS one... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Anyone ever heard of something like this???? > timing chain sprockets had plastic on them. I found the same in a rebuild > of my '71 302. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > Anyone ever heard of something like this???? shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is $15 cheaper than a nylon one which is causing all the problems! Thanx all It was rebuilt 5000 miles ago ? Were the timing chain and gears inspected or replaced ? Was there an oiling problem at startup ? G > It was rebuilt 5000 miles ago ? Were the timing chain and gears inspected > or replaced ? So far as I know--replaced. I had the thing rebuilt by a local shop (motor had 150k miles on it). I suppose anything is possible, but their rebuilds (supposedly) include new timing gear, and such. As noted, I noticed a piece of that damn plastic during my 1st oil change, and brought it down to the shop, but they claimed nothing they knew of could account for that piece of plastic making its way into my oil filter, so I passed it off as a piece of debris that happened to drop onto the filter from a cleanup rag. What I can't understand is how the heck a piece of plastic 1/4" long could make it through the screen on the oil pump unless the screen fell off or something, and I don't know why the screen would have done that... Was there an oiling problem at startup ? Not that I ever noticed. One day, the thing just stopped running like someone turned off the key, and the engine turned over too quickly without restarting, so I figured the compression was shot, and pulled the engine for a rebuild I was planning anyway. I got a basic, but appropriate, $1200 rebuild job (rather than buying a $900 crate motor)--and for that they damn sure should have replaced my timing gear! > shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, > making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is $15 > cheaper than a nylon one which is causing all the problems! I would do this soon. I've seen some examples where the plastic pieces get between the oil pump gears and lock up the oil pump and shear the distributor. Suddenly you have NO oil pressure. > > shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, > > making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is $15 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > gears and lock up the oil pump and shear the distributor. Suddenly you > have NO oil pressure. Actually, as noted, I noticed the first piece after my first oil change, a few weeks after the engine was rebuilt. The engine must have had this problem for the last 4 years and 5000 miles... >> shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, >> making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is $15 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >gears and lock up the oil pump and shear the distributor. Suddenly you >have NO oil pressure. Had to have an engine replaced after a very minute piece of pan gasket jammed the oil pump. The end result was I lost the first piston bearing on the. It's like dominos. The oil pump freezes up which starts a chain reaction. and all the idiot lights in the world go crazy. >>> shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, >>> making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > starts a chain reaction. and all the idiot lights in the world go > crazy. And, if you had replaced your oil pickup, it would not have happened. I wonder about people's reading and comprehension skills. Don't even seem to be capable of first level these days. SignatureA: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? > >>> shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, > >>> making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message. > Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? That is what's curious to me--the oil pickup would obviously be new on a rebuilt engine, and the first piece I found when the motor had only 300-400 miles on it. How the heck did these 3 pieces get past the pickup?! I'm planning on at least dropping the pan to see what the pickup looks like, and then try and see if I can do any sort of visual on the cam sprocket by looking up from beneath. Not sure if THAT will work, but will try... >>>> shoot! Looks like I gotta get to work, then, and replace everything, >>>> making sure I use a non-coated METAL sprocket, which ironically is [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >wonder about people's reading and comprehension skills. Don't even seem >to be capable of first level these days. New oil pickup and shaft. What wasn't new was the oil pan, which apparently was not cleaned well enough after the old gasket was scraped off. All it took was a piece of gasket about the size of a pin head (which enlarged like a penny on a railroad track). It still jammed the pickup which stopped the flow of oil, which led to excessive heat build up, and subsequent bering failure. Fortunately, it wasn't my doing, which was why I got a new engine from the company. I just had to pay for the R&R. My personal reading and comprehension skills are well above average. :0) > New oil pickup and shaft. What wasn't new was the oil pan, which > apparently was not cleaned well enough after the old gasket was > scraped off. All it took was a piece of gasket about the size of a pin > head (which enlarged like a penny on a railroad track). It still > jammed the pickup which stopped the flow of oil, which led to > excessive heat build up, and subsequent bering failure. Never saw this before and having a hard time believing it. A piece of cork the size of a pinhead spread out to the size of a penny? That doesn't seem to be physically possible. Take a good look at the "new" pickup - I bet they used the old one, as the gospel among engine rebuilders is that "oil pickups don't go bad unless plugged." That's true enough, unless they are Ford. I've run into this problem dozens of times on many Ford motors, and it has always been a bad pickup with the bypass hole opened up. They don't appear to be plugged up. You have to looking with a flashlight way up behind the shield on the pickup screen. They are just covering their a.ses because they assumed the old pickup was good. Was this by any chance Franklin Auto Parts? I have had enough grief with them. They do not have a clue what they are doing. My buddy is on his third Chevy 350 block rebuilt by them, which always wipes out the cam lobes and bearings in less than 150 miles. We found they were driving the first cam bearing in so much it was covering the oil hole up. Their defense? "We do this on all the race engines we prep." SignatureA: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? >Never saw this before and having a hard time believing it. A piece of >cork the size of a pinhead spread out to the size of a penny? That [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >hole opened up. They don't appear to be plugged up. You have to looking >with a flashlight way up behind the shield on the pickup scree It wasn't cork. More like rubber or sealant. It was a brand new pickup because the previous one from a chain store failed for the same reason with a different shop. The engine supplier sent me the oil pickup and the new shop (which only does engines and has an excellent rep) manager and I opened the package together, opened up the pump, and there, wedged against the wall of the cylinder, was a black smear which peeled off. We also found a couple more tiny bits of rubber like substance. They suggested that the oil pan had not been properly cleaned prior to reinstall. >They are just covering their a.ses because they assumed the old pickup >was good. > >Was this by any chance Franklin Auto Parts? Wasn't Franklin. Locally, Franklin has been pretty good. Of course, last time I checked, they were sending customers to an engine shop as they were not doing engine work. >I have had enough grief with >them. They do not have a clue what they are doing. My buddy is on his [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >"We do this on all the race engines we prep." > It wasn't cork. More like rubber or sealant. It was a brand new pickup > because the previous one from a chain store failed for the same reason [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > substance. They suggested that the oil pan had not been properly > cleaned prior to reinstall. Still, how could it get into the pump at all? I wonder if it fell down into the oil gallery from above somehow. That kind of material simply can't pass through a new pickup. SignatureA: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? >> It wasn't cork. More like rubber or sealant. It was a brand new pickup >> because the previous one from a chain store failed for the same reason [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the oil gallery from above somehow. That kind of material simply can't pass >through a new pickup. according to the engine shop and the engine company, "stuff" can still get through if it's small enough, and the tolerances of the pump internals can be jammed by next to nothing as long as it is hard enough. Lets put it this way, since it got me a replacement engine, and they didn't consider the warrantee void, I'm satisfied with both responses. Was the internals of the motor painted when it was rebuilt? I had one once that the paint put on to seal the casting finish in the lifter gallery pealed off. It came off as small strips and flakes. I opened up the motor and flushed it out, it had also partly covered the oil pichup screen. > If anyone can help with THIS one... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Anyone ever heard of something like this???? > Was the internals of the motor painted when it was rebuilt? I had one once > that the paint put on to seal the casting finish in the lifter gallery [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > Anyone ever heard of something like this???? Could not tell you about whether it was painted. But most everyone agrees that it looks like plastic timing gear particles. Strange thing is, two top mechanics here locally with a call-in show were not too worried about it, and suggested I keep driving the car but watch my oil pressure. Maybe that's cuz the teeth are not coated, but only the outer body of the gear? Anyway, I plan on dropping the pan and looking in there, and if there is no other debris, I may just keep an eye on things, and keep driving as they suggested until I get the time/money to just tear into it, and see what I'm dealing with > Was the internals of the motor painted when it was rebuilt? I had one once > that the paint put on to seal the casting finish in the lifter gallery [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >you're the first |
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