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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / August 2007Next Corvette To Go Mid-Engine. Next Cobra...?
A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The thinking was with all three cars now offering 500+, further increases in horsepower to stay ahead of the competition would become a joke. "Wow, my new Cobra/Viper/Vette, with its extra 50 horsepower this year, can now roast the tires 25 feet longer than Brand X's car." Well, I guess the Corvette engineers have been thinking much the same thing for a while now. Seems the next generation Corvette -- due out sometime around 2010 -- is this close >< to getting the green light to become a mid-engine sports car. I figured AWD would be easier and cheaper, but word has it the Corvette's Chief wants the next- generation Vette to be a take-no-prisoners World beater. And word has it the spy pics are absolutely stunning. Price for this gorgeous next generation techno-marvel: about the cost of today's convertible Vette. If GM can deliver, they will, no doubt, turn the sports car world upside down. Which brings us back to our Cobra. It's obvious Ford has recently -- since the 2000 R model -- been trying to keep the Cobra in the Vette's rear view, if not its side-view mirrors. But now with the Vette likely to get the advantage/traction of a mid-engine design, what is Ford's well-muscled pony supposed to do to keep up if adding more HP/ tire smoke isn't enough? Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to design a mid-engine Mustang, but will Ford offer a Cobra with AWD? Comments? Patrick >A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and > our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Patrick I remember reading a while back, in a well-known car magazine, about the imminent arrival of the mid-engine Corvette. 1973, I believe it was, and this beast was supposed to arrive in time for the 1976 model year. Uh, didn't happen. Paul > <NoOptio...@aol.com> wrote in message > >A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and > > our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Vette. If GM can deliver, they will, no doubt, turn the sports car > > world upside down. > > Which brings us back to our Cobra. It's obvious Ford has recently -- > > since the 2000 R model -- been trying to keep the Cobra in the Vette's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > tire smoke isn't enough? Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to design > > a mid-engine Mustang, but will Ford offer a Cobra with AWD? > I remember reading a while back, in a well-known car magazine, about the > imminent arrival of the mid-engine Corvette. 1973, I believe it was, and > this beast was supposed to arrive in time for the 1976 model year. Uh, > didn't happen. Yes Paul, GM has in the past considered building a mid-engine Vette. But this is the new GM -- the one that currently builds the best sport car for the dollar on the planet, period. It's going to happen... look for it in 2010. Patrick >A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and > our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Comments? What a lot of us that grew up with the original Mustangs really need now - is a 4 door Mustang! A grocery getting, kid (or grandkid) picker-upper with a V-8 deep throated rumble and nostalgia! Done right, it'll sell very nicely, but done wrong, it'll flop big time.  SignatureJohn - ThunderSnake #59 '69 Mach 1 w/ 390 4V Wide Ratio Toploader 3.50 Traction-Lok Acapulco Blue >>A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and >> our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > picker-upper with a V-8 deep throated rumble and nostalgia! Done > right, it'll sell very nicely, but done wrong, it'll flop big time. John, the car you're referring to is available now at your Dodge dealer. It's called a Charger. >>>A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and >>> our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > John, the car you're referring to is available now at your Dodge dealer. > It's called a Charger. Or is the Magnum? Yeah, I've seen those. They are nice, but no thanks. If Ford is smart, they'll Magnumize the Mustang. SignatureJohn - ThunderSnake #59 '69 Mach 1 w/ 390 4V Wide Ratio Toploader 3.50 Traction-Lok Acapulco Blue NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in news:1188008923.534778.160040 @x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com: > A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and > our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Patrick Comparing a Mustang to a Corvette is absurd. Ford will never offer an AWD Mustang in my driving lifetime. It goes against the Mustang's philosophy. Not to mention the fact that they couldn't afford to build it anyway.. > NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in news:1188008923.534778.160040 > @x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > against the Mustang's philosophy. Not to mention the fact that they > couldn't afford to build it anyway.. I agree. Ford can't polish a $25k V-8 RWD muscle car into an AWD Corvette chaser. If Ford wants a Corvette challenger then they need to design a dedicated chassis and drive train.... just like GM does. I don't believe GM is going to make the next generation of Vette a mid engine car as it has excellent weight distribution as is. I think there is a good chance it will remain RWD. Next gen Vettes have been more an improvement on the last one than a complete redesign. I don't think the next one will be that radical a change (i.e AWD) from the current one. Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:tLGdnXdkl- aVJlLbnZ2dnUVZ_vmlnZ2d@giganews.com: >> NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in news:1188008923.534778.160040 >> @x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > improvement on the last one than a complete redesign. I don't think the > next one will be that radical a change (i.e AWD) from the current one. Bing-freakin'-go. Agreed 1000%. GM has nothing to worry about as far as the Corvette is concerned. It just keeps getting better and better, and GM will always make it. It's one of the cornerstones of the company. > Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:tLGdnXdkl- > aVJlLbnZ2dnUVZ_vmlnZ2d@giganews.com: [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > just keeps getting better and better, and GM will always make it. It's > one of the cornerstones of the company. The Corvette has its own niche that has little competition. Even from the foreign import segment. There is a long line of loyal Corvette fans just waiting for a little better car than the one they own. It is a ritual for them to get the new gen Vette every four years or so. In a way they aren't that different from Mustang buyers in that they get a tremendous amount of performance relative to the dollars they spend. GM has been using the Z06 as the teaser for what the next variant of the base Corvette will become. The next Vette will be a tad under 500 hp and take much of the technology from the current Z06. Especially the drive train. It will likely receive INCREMENTAL improvements across the board. IMO, when they moved the transmission to the rear of the car it gave the Vette the ability to achieve world class handling performance even without AWD. OTOH, the Mustang has always been a poor man's performance car. That means it is low tech and easy to tweak by the owner. As an old boss of mine used to say "You can polish a turd only so much and even then it will still smell like sh.t". The same goes for the Mustang. The only thing Ford needs to do is option it well, offer an affordable GT package, give it some good looks and keep the after market performance parts going strong. They do this and the car will sell. Why is the current Mustang selling well with an ancient solid axle design in a world of IRS cars? IMO, it is because Mustang buyers want one, or more of those four things I just mentioned. Mustang owners are looking to split wood..... not carve pieces of fine art. Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:NP- dnftay70NlUzbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@giganews.com: >> Michael Johnson <cds@erols.com> wrote in news:tLGdnXdkl- >> aVJlLbnZ2dnUVZ_vmlnZ2d@giganews.com: [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > one, or more of those four things I just mentioned. Mustang owners are > looking to split wood..... not carve pieces of fine art. Another direct hit. Well said, Michael. > > A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and > > our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > tire smoke isn't enough? Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to design > > a mid-engine Mustang, but will Ford offer a Cobra with AWD? > Comparing a Mustang to a Corvette is absurd. It is. That's why I'm not. I'm simply stating that it's obvious Ford has recently -- since the 2000 R model -- been trying to keep the Cobra's straight- line performance comparable to the Vette and Viper. And in the Mustang's current configuration, just throwing more horsepower at it won't get the job done. Either they are going to have to lighten the car A LOT or increase traction. And increasing traction could increase sales in the North, so offering AWD makes sense. Do you disagree with this? > Ford will never offer an AWD Mustang in my driving lifetime. It goes > against the Mustang's philosophy. Not to mention the fact that they > couldn't afford to build it anyway.. Seeing that the Mustang is Ford's [only?] recent success story, the fact there's a slew of competition -- from the new Camaro, Challenger and a RWD Hyundai -- about to make their market debut, and an upcoming generation of new buyers who like cutting-edge technology, I think it would be wise for them to keep all their "options on the table" if they want to hold onto their market share. Patrick > Seeing that the Mustang is Ford's [only?] recent success story, the > fact there's a slew of competition -- from the new Camaro, Challenger [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Patrick I'm confused. All of these horsepower advances are great, and I really hope that Ford beats our horse to death. But aren't we at cross-purposes here? The surge to Go Green is approaching critical mass. Aside from the whole global warming thing (whether you believe it to be fact or not), the political climate alone dictates that we pursue other energy sources. Every year, there will be stronger forces trying to wean us off of oil-based internal combustion engines. The clock is ticking. How is it that developmental engineers have been given the go-ahead to spend untold millions of budgetary dollars to create ever-more-powerful versions of a transportation device that may soon go the way of the dinosaurs? Isn't anyone looking forward, or is this a purposely shortsighted project to make immediate profit, while delaying the inevitable? Are the Japanese chasing gas-blown horsepower, or is the bulk of their creative energies and financial resources being spent on future tech? And is this yet another indication of the Big Three being so far behind the curve? dwight (for debate only. Personal disclaimer - I'm addicted to oil.) >> Seeing that the Mustang is Ford's [only?] recent success story, the >> fact there's a slew of competition -- from the new Camaro, Challenger [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > sources. Every year, there will be stronger forces trying to wean us > off of oil-based internal combustion engines. The clock is ticking. All basically true. But IMO it has nothing at all to do with pony/muscle/sports cars. > How is it that developmental engineers have been given the go-ahead to > spend untold millions of budgetary dollars to create > ever-more-powerful versions of a transportation device that may soon > go the way of the dinosaurs? Isn't anyone looking forward, or is this > a purposely shortsighted project to make immediate profit, while > delaying the inevitable? I'm confident that gasoline-only-powered automobiles will be with us for the remainder of our lives (dwight, I'm talking about _our_ lives seeing that we're both on the "downslope"). In today's paper there was an article about how GM is developing an engine that approaches the efficiency level of a diesel but runs on gasoline. So makers are still tinkering with the good ol' internal combustion engine, even while they're developing electric vehicles. > Are the Japanese chasing gas-blown horsepower, or is the bulk of their > creative energies and financial resources being spent on future tech? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dwight > (for debate only. Personal disclaimer - I'm addicted to oil.) I think the Japanese are moving towards future tech, but in the meantime, they still need to sell cars today. I'll gamble that at least one Japanese maker comes out with a RWD high-hp car to compete with the Mustang sooner or later. Keep an eye on Hyundai. > <NoOptio...@aol.com> wrote in message > How is it that developmental engineers have been given the go-ahead to spend > untold millions of budgetary dollars to create ever-more-powerful versions > of a transportation device that may soon go the way of the dinosaurs? Isn't > anyone looking forward, or is this a purposely shortsighted project to make > immediate profit, while delaying the inevitable? They are not necessarily looking to create more power. What they're doing is creating efficiency. And efficiency creates more power. The problem is the more efficient they design things the more we consumers want -- more features, more safety and yes, more speed. > Are the Japanese chasing gas-blown horsepower, Exhibit T: Toyota Tundra The Japanese have increased horsepower levels as much as the Big 3s. > or is the bulk of their > creative energies and financial resources being spent on future tech? And is > this yet another indication of the Big Three being so far behind the curve? Here's the latest Big-3 score card (using boxing analogies): GM has, for the most part, got their sh.t together and are climbing up the rankings. They just can't pack an audience into the arena. The problem is everyone still thinks they're the punch-drunk company of old. But in fact, they've trimmed down and muscled up quite a bit. Look for them to be a real contender soon. Ford is reeling on the ropes. However, they at least now have an eye on some of the incoming punches, so there's still hope they can weather the barrage. If they can land a few punches soon, they may buy themselves time to get their legs back. They're hoping they can starting putting a few punches together to start winning a some rounds. Chrysler in the past has shown flashes of talent and tons of heart, but rarely can stay inside the ring long enough to win a fight. Just when they start winning a few rounds they get hit by a huge bomb and go flying through the ropes. The latest bomb was a crappy manager who left them flailing away without any direction, and then not wanting to see the outcome of the fight, left the arena. Their new manager who just took over looks like a clueless high-school gym teacher. Barring a Hail Mary miracle punch they'll soon take a horrific beating. We may even see a stoppage. Patrick >> Seeing that the Mustang is Ford's [only?] recent success story, the >> fact there's a slew of competition -- from the new Camaro, Challenger [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > creative energies and financial resources being spent on future tech? And is > this yet another indication of the Big Three being so far behind the curve? The only thing that will move us off our dependency of oil is economics. All this global warming, go green babble is a money grab by Algore and a bunch of scientists from both sides. The price of oil is going to remain high indefinitely due to the explosive growth of several underdeveloped countries like China, India, Indonesia etc. China alone is going to be gobbling up crude oil at a rate even we here in the USA can't match. The oil producers can't suck oil out of the ground fast enough to feed two 800 lb. energy gorillas. If oil prices go as high as I think it will in the next 10-15 years the consumer will create the demand for alternatives which, IMO, will first be hybrids and then full electrics with a small gas engine to charge and/or feed the batteries in a pinch. Once they get batteries that can recharge to more than 80% of capacity in less than five minutes the majority of the cars driven in the country will be all electric. The great thing is that this doesn't mean the death of performance cars at all. In fact, I think it will usher in an era of performance the likes of which we can't imagine. We will have all wheel drive torque monsters that will have super low centers of gravity that will scare the hell out of us as we mash the throttle to the floor and enter curves at insane speeds and we live to tell about it. BTW, the Japanese (i.e. Toyota) are embracing hybrids because they are the test beds for the all electric cars they know are coming. They just don't know when the price of gas is going to push the consumer over the edge to go for all electric vehicles. The fact we are accepting hybrids is the indication to them that the change will eventually occur but they know they have to move slow for now. Toyota is the smartest of the bunch because they are putting serious development resources into hybrid technology. Their next round of hybrids are going to be designed from the ground up as hybrids and not a retrofit of a gasoline only based vehicle. If the other automakers don't do the same Toyota will own the hybrid market for a long time to come. [...] > Seeing that the Mustang is Ford's [only?] recent success story, the > fact there's a slew of competition -- from the new Camaro, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would be wise for them to keep all their "options on the table" if > they want to hold onto their market share. Ford sold 160,412 Mustangs in 2005 and 165,762 in 2006. How does that compare to Chevrolet's Corvette success? Camaro? Challenger? How many cars constitutes a "success"? SignatureFrank ess > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > How many cars constitutes a "success"? Units sold really doesn't tell the story, as there are a ton of other factors to consider. The Mustang is a runaway success, but it's unique within Ford in that respect. The Corvette will always have a niche, and it's GM's pride. The Camaro and Challenger aren't out yet, so who knows? >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > other > factors to consider. Well, good. What are some? SignatureFrank ess >>> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Well, good. What are some? How about profit? You can look up the others. >>>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > How about profit? You can look up the others. Among the characteristics of character that render individuals extremely uncomfortable within themselves is a smug arrogance. You can look up the others. SignatureFrank ess >>>>> [...] >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > You can look up the others. Don't know what your problem is there, Frank, but you've got at least a few. If you seriously thought that units sold is the sole mark of success, then you are either a high school kid or you are one naive sonofabitch. If neither is true, then you're just a friggin' troll. Get off your a.s and look up the facts for yourself. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > How many cars constitutes a "success"? Economics 101: For a manufacturer, a car is a success when enough are sold to make a profit, after paying the design costs, and the factory startup and qualification costs. If the profit margin is thin (e.g., Ford Focus), lots of cars must be sold; if the margin is fat (e.g., Bentley Continental GT Speed), very few cars need be sold. And, of course, many cars use parts from other cars (e.g., the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500); so, the incremental design/startup/qual costs are relatively small. SignatureCheers, Bob NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in news:1188044433.783170.79470 @q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com: >> > A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and >> > our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > since the 2000 R model -- been trying to keep the Cobra's straight- > line performance comparable to the Vette and Viper. Is it comparable now? I really don't know - it's a real question. > And in the > Mustang's current configuration, just throwing more horsepower at it > won't get the job done. Indeed. > Either they are going to have to lighten the > car A LOT or increase traction. I think they'll have to do both. > And increasing traction could > increase sales in the North, so offering AWD makes sense. Do you > disagree with this? No, but I think it's an esoteric point. The real reason I don't think we'll ever see an AWD Mustang is because it would require an entirely new platform. It's just way too expensive to do. >> Ford will never offer an AWD Mustang in my driving lifetime. It goes >> against the Mustang's philosophy. Not to mention the fact that they [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Patrick I agree fully. But the current Mustang platform simply can't handle AWD. The weight increase alone would kill the car. From Edmunds - PS - I think changing the Vette to a mid-engined car would be a move that "forgets" the heritage of the car, especially from what would most likely change about the styling proportions to accommodate such a move. Corvette Goes Midengine? Not So Fast August 23, 2007 Edmunds.com AutoObserver Posted by Michelle Krebs at 7:12 AM Here we go again. Parts suppliers to automotive blog sites are atwitter about the prospects for a midengine Corvette. Indeed, that discussion -- which has occurred repeatedly since the 1960s -- is heating up yet again inside General Motors. Automotive Web site AutoExtremist.com <http://www.autoextremist.com/> claims to have inside information that the C7 going midengine is nearly a done deal; a final decision is due next month, it insists. Not so, say sources. Such a move is a long way from being a done deal with the C7 not due until mid next decade, and a decision to go midengine is not imminent. In the meantime, numerous enhancements will be made to the C6 Corvette before the C7 arrives, around 2013. Proponents argue a midengine Corvette would allow them to do things with the sports car that can't be done with a front-engine version, not the least of which is boost acceleration. Such a car would go a long way toward establishing GM's global technology leadership, a top goal for the automaker, they contend. But is a fast, high-horsepower midengine Corvette the right symbol for GM's global technology leadership? Might not be, in this era of more stringent fuel-economy efforts. Cost is another major question mark, however. Proponents insist a midengine Corvette can be accomplished at a cost minimally more than the cost of the current model, so it would sell at the equivalent of about $66,000, claims sources talking to AutoExtremist. The Web site adds that a more luxurious version would replace the Cadillac XLR, which now shares the Corvette's C6 platform, and would feature a unique motor, retractable hardtop and different styling. Other sources and outside analysts don't buy that a Corvette, with its hallmark for affordability, can go midengine without a significant cost bump that would have to be passed onto the customer -- or eaten by GM, not a desirable situation in light of the automaker's struggle to stay in the black. Forecasting firm, Global Insight <http://myinsight.globalinsight.com/servlet/cats?documentID=2114500&serviceID=167 5&pageContent=art&context=email&src=pc&source=email_alert&source_id=4&p1=307242& date=2007/08/22> says GM's move to a midengine Corvette is risky business. "To replace the Corvette with a halo sports car nearly half again as expensive as the current model would be an extremely risky move," Global Insight said in its daily analysis of news today. "A halo vehicle for GM could be a good move internationally, but to so dramatically change what has become an American icon would seriously risk alienating the market that the vehicle already has in North America, by far its largest market." Global Insight warns GM risks the current price advantage Corvette has over comparably performing competitor sports cars. "But to move the model into the more rarefied territory occupied by the Porsche 911 and Audi R8 would move it out of the affordability range presently enjoyed by its current owners." Edmunds' own Jeremy Anwyl, CEO, agrees: "Corvettes should be front-engine and Porsche should not be a sport-utility. Some things just shouldn't change, like Classic Coke." >A while back I wrote about the possibility of the Corvette, Viper and >our beloved Cobra switching from strictly RWD to all-wheel drive. The [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://www.windingroad.com/features-page/chevrolet-c7-corvette/ http://www.windingroad.com/photo-gallery/photo-gallery-23/chevrolet-c7-corvette- photos/?image=1 > >From Edmunds - > [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >> >> |
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