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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Mustang / October 2007SOT: G8 GT Starts At $29.9K
eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- powered G8 GT will start at $29,995, GM says. The G8 will have a base 256-hp, 3.6-liter variable valve-timed V-6 engine and five-speed automatic transmission. It will have driver shift control and sport mode availability. Standard features will include StabiliTrak electronic stability control, six airbags and OnStar. The G8 GT will have a 6.0-liter V-8 mated to a six-speed automatic transmission. Other standard equipment will include limited slip differential and a premium 230-watt Blaupunkt 11-speaker sound system, according to a memo Pontiac sent to dealers this morning. In the memo, Jim Bunnell, Buick-Pontiac-GMC general manager, calls the GT version "the most powerful vehicle available for under $30,000." http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071003/FREE/71002021/1530/FREE Chrysler has its RWD 340 HP V8 LX sedans priced under $30K. GM will soon have a 400 HP V8 RWD sedan priced under $30K. And Ford has... nothing... Patrick > eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 > when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > include StabiliTrak electronic stability control, six airbags and > OnStar. 256 out of 3.6 liters, how they do that? Blown ? > The G8 GT will have a 6.0-liter V-8 mated to a six-speed automatic > transmission. Other standard equipment will include limited slip > differential and a premium 230-watt Blaupunkt 11-speaker sound system, > according to a memo Pontiac sent to dealers this morning. Bet they add weight to it, so it drives like a truck, > In the memo, Jim Bunnell, Buick-Pontiac-GMC general manager, calls the > GT version "the most powerful vehicle available for under $30,000." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Patrick >> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 >> when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 256 out of 3.6 liters, how they do that? Blown ? Hum, in 1989 Ford made 220 horsepower with a 3.0 liter naturally aspirated engine in the SHO why is 256 horsepower out of a 3.6 liter 8 years later so improbable? Today you can buy a 2008 Ford Taurus that has a naturally aspirated 3.5-liter, V6, making 263-horsepower... >> The G8 GT will have a 6.0-liter V-8 mated to a six-speed automatic >> transmission. Other standard equipment will include limited slip [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Patrick >>> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 >>> when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > engine in the SHO why is 256 horsepower out of a 3.6 liter 8 years later > so improbable? 18, not 8. > Today you can buy a 2008 Ford Taurus that has a naturally aspirated > 3.5-liter, V6, making 263-horsepower... Oh and the The 2008 Toyota Camry has a 3.5-liter, V6 with 268-naturally aspirated-horsepower... >>> The G8 GT will have a 6.0-liter V-8 mated to a six-speed automatic >>> transmission. Other standard equipment will include limited slip [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> >>> Patrick Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm assuming it is RWD? > eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 > when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Patrick > Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm assuming > it is RWD? Because that's the demographic. Us aging Boomers don't like folding the seats forward and climbing underneath the seatbelt to get into the back. It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. dwight >> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 >> when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Patrick >> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >> assuming it is RWD? > > Because that's the demographic. Us aging Boomers don't like folding > the seats forward and climbing underneath the seatbelt to get into the > back. Bing-Freakin'-O. Michael, you will either remain a frustrated purist, or you will grow older with grace like us (?) and mellow out and accept 4-door muscle. > It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. > > dwight I believe the article did say it was RWD. If not, screw it. >>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Michael, you will either remain a frustrated purist, or you will grow > older with grace like us (?) and mellow out and accept 4-door muscle. Is there such a thing as four door muscle? Right off the top of my head I can't think of any older muscles cars that didn't offer a two door version. >> It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. >> >> dwight > > I believe the article did say it was RWD. If not, screw it. >>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is there such a thing as four door muscle? Of course! In no particular order, Caddy, Chrysler, Dodge, GM, BMW, MB, etc. You can even get into the truck lines with Ford's blown Harley F150 and Dodge's SRT-10 Quad Cab. > Right off the top of my head > I can't think of any older muscles cars that didn't offer a two door > version. Right. But this is almost 2008. And as dwight accurately pointed out, demographics in this day and age call for 4-door muscle. Not that 2- door muscle is obsolete by any means. By the same token, there were no older 4-door muscle cars. Now you can have your choice of either 2 doors or 4, car or truck. Life is good. :) >>> It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. >>> >>> dwight >> >> I believe the article did say it was RWD. If not, screw it. >>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > etc. You can even get into the truck lines with Ford's blown Harley > F150 and Dodge's SRT-10 Quad Cab. I'm talking about classic muscle cars from the 19060s. You know, the ones that defined the genre. >> Right off the top of my head >> I can't think of any older muscles cars that didn't offer a two door [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > demographics in this day and age call for 4-door muscle. Not that 2- > door muscle is obsolete by any means. Then you are talking about performance sedans, IMO. That is a different animal, once again, IMHO. > By the same token, there were no older 4-door muscle cars. Now you can > have your choice of either 2 doors or 4, car or truck. Life is good. IMO, a four door performance sedan does not make it a muscle car. It makes it a performance sedan. It four doors also makes it far less attractive. Besides, most of these hog weight sedans could use the diet of going to two doors. >>>> It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. >>>> >>>> dwight >>> I believe the article did say it was RWD. If not, screw it. >>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm talking about classic muscle cars from the 19060s. You know, the > ones that defined the genre. OK, but what's that got to do with these wonderful 4-door killers out now or coming out soon? >>> Right off the top of my head >>> I can't think of any older muscles cars that didn't offer a two door [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Then you are talking about performance sedans, IMO. That is a > different animal, once again, IMHO. Semantics. Splitting hairs. A 400hp 4-door sedan has muscle. It's not a "muscle car" by the original definition (whatever that was/is), but these vehicles have muscle. >> By the same token, there were no older 4-door muscle cars. Now you >> can have your choice of either 2 doors or 4, car or truck. Life is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > attractive. Besides, most of these hog weight sedans could use the > diet of going to two doors. Again, semantics IMO. I'm simply talking about some ballsy power and decent handling. If you want to get technical, I can't think of a single production "muscle car" that's made today. >>>>> It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. >>>>> >>>>> dwight >>>> I believe the article did say it was RWD. If not, screw it. >>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >>>>>> dwight >>>>> I believe the article did say it was RWD. If not, screw it. It just seems to me that making a two door variant of some of these sedans would be a way to boost sales for little R&D. It might open up more sales to the younger crowd and people like myself that don't really need four doors for my geriatric friends to get into and out of the car. ;) >>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, >>>>>>>> I'm assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > really need four doors for my geriatric friends to get into and out of > the car. ;) Hey, I resemble that remark! ;) Of course I agree with you, Michael. However, I have to wonder what that "little R&D" actually is. That and market reseach are the only things I can think of why manufacturers don't make 2-door variants. >>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > to the younger crowd and people like myself that don't really need four > doors for my geriatric friends to get into and out of the car. ;) Are you married? Despite my own proclivity for two-door Mustangs, I understand that women - far below the entry age for geriatrics - do NOT want to climb into a car. It takes men a little longer to admit the same (macho self denial), but getting into the back of a two-door coupe is NOT fun, and works only for children under a certain age. I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED minority. Four doors is the way to go. dwight >>>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>>>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Are you married? Yes. > Despite my own proclivity for two-door Mustangs, I understand that women - > far below the entry age for geriatrics - do NOT want to climb into a car. It > takes men a little longer to admit the same (macho self denial), but getting > into the back of a two-door coupe is NOT fun, and works only for children > under a certain age. My wife has said she wants our next new car to be a two door. > I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED minority. Four > doors is the way to go. I would wager another American dollar that if Chrysler offers a two door variant of the 300C it would sell quite well. The same goes for the Pontiac G8. I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. I'm in my mid forties and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. Plenty of Mustangs are sold with two doors. Who buys those? The majority are not under thirty-five. IMO, a four door Charger is no better than a four door Mustang. >>>>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, >>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > My wife has said she wants our next new car to be a two door. My, you two are a sporty couple. ;) >> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED minority. >> Four doors is the way to go. > > I would wager another American dollar that if Chrysler offers a two > door variant of the 300C it would sell quite well. The same goes for > the Pontiac G8. Just a passing thought, but perhaps those makers have chosen not to make a 2-door variant for the same reasons Ford has chosen not to bump up the horsepower for the Mustang GT. :p > I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats > when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. I'm in > my mid forties Ah, _there's_ the rub. Both dwight and I have not quite ten years on you, and we have seen your future. :) > ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real > fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > four > door Mustang. So how about a 4-door Corvette? Can you say 'Cadillac'? ;) >>>>>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, >>>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > My, you two are a sporty couple. ;) Maybe more than the average couple but I'm much more sporty than her. >>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED minority. >>> Four doors is the way to go. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a 2-door variant for the same reasons Ford has chosen not to bump up the > horsepower for the Mustang GT. :p For some reason they haven't. My guess is they are trying to scale back on models to streamline costs. The foreign automakers are offering coupes. Here are a few examples: Toyota Solara; Infinity G; Honda Accord; Honda Civic; Nissan Altima; Volkswagen EOS; BMW 328; BMW 650; Mercedes 350/550/600 coupes; Volvo C30/C70; and Pontiac G6/G5 Coupes. IMO, it seems like there are many automakers that are doing well selling coupes. >> I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats >> when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. I'm in >> my mid forties > > Ah, _there's_ the rub. Both dwight and I have not quite ten years on > you, and we have seen your future. :) That might be. Just don't try and drag me into the geriatric crowd just yet. Let me have my next ten years in ignorant bliss. ;) >> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So how about a 4-door Corvette? Can you say 'Cadillac'? ;) Is this what you baby boomers are going to leave as your legacy? A four door Corvette? Is it too late to get Dr. Kevorkian back in service? :) >>>>>>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I'm assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Maybe more than the average couple but I'm much more sporty than her. Hmm. Republicans, eh? ;) >>>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED >>>> minority. Four doors is the way to go. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Coupes. IMO, it seems like there are many automakers that are doing > well selling coupes. Absolutely! But some of those 4-doors are doing just as well if not better. >>> I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats >>> when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. I'm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That might be. Just don't try and drag me into the geriatric crowd > just yet. Let me have my next ten years in ignorant bliss. ;) Hey, enjoy them while they last! By the same token, I'm not on Metamucil just yet... >>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > four door Corvette? Is it too late to get Dr. Kevorkian back in > service? :) Ooh - a low blow. We prefer to think of this mind set progression as 'maturity'. ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I'm assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Hmm. Republicans, eh? ;) I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The trouble is there are few people that independents can cast a vote for. >>>>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED >>>>> minority. Four doors is the way to go. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Absolutely! But some of those 4-doors are doing just as well if not > better. Four doors are the better sellers but there must be a market for coupes if so many are offered. >>>> I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats >>>> when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. I'm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hey, enjoy them while they last! By the same token, I'm not on > Metamucil just yet... That's good to hear. I was getting worried about you. >>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Ooh - a low blow. We prefer to think of this mind set progression as > 'maturity'. ;) Even suggesting a four door Corvette is crossing the line. ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I'm assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The trouble is > there are few people that independents can cast a vote for. Doesn't bother me a bit. As a registered Independent, I really don't care one hoot about each party's nomination process. It's all foolishness anyway. My vote will count in the next presidential election. >>>>>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED >>>>>> minority. Four doors is the way to go. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Four doors are the better sellers but there must be a market for coupes > if so many are offered. OK, to put this to bed, let's say that both 2-door and 4-door power/muscle/whatever cars are all good. There's a market for both, and both are selling. The number of doors is simply personal preference. >>>>> I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats >>>>> when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. I'm [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That's good to hear. I was getting worried about you. Aw, you care. I'm touched! :) >>>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Even suggesting a four door Corvette is crossing the line. ;) But the 4-door Corvette is a reality right now! Do you think you could ever bring yourself to drive one? ;) >>><big snip> >> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The trouble is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > foolishness anyway. My vote will count in the next presidential > election. Local politics has turned me off to politics in general. Try developing a piece of land and running through the local political minefield. It will make you suicidal. >>>>>>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED >>>>>>> minority. Four doors is the way to go. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > power/muscle/whatever cars are all good. There's a market for both, and > both are selling. The number of doors is simply personal preference. ... and my preference is two doors in case you missed it. ;) >>>>>> I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats >>>>>> when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Aw, you care. I'm touched! :) I was raised to respect and care about my elders. ;) >>>>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only one. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > But the 4-door Corvette is a reality right now! Do you think you could > ever bring yourself to drive one? ;) There no sedans that can run with a Z06. Let's get that straight right now! >>>><big snip> >>> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The trouble [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > developing a piece of land and running through the local political > minefield. It will make you suicidal. Now don't go and do anything rash... >>>>>>>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED >>>>>>>> minority. Four doors is the way to go. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > ... and my preference is two doors in case you missed it. ;) Got it. Although you could've been a bit more succinct. ;) >>>>>>> I'll be worried about access to a car's rear seats >>>>>>> when I need to install a wheel chair lift for rear passengers. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I was raised to respect and care about my elders. ;) Ooh, another Low Blow. But I will say that it appears that your parents did a good job. ;) >>>>>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>>>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There no sedans that can run with a Z06. Let's get that straight > right now! Indeed. So you're saying that Chevy rules the category. ;) >>>>> <big snip> >>>> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The trouble [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > Ooh, another Low Blow. But I will say that it appears that your parents > did a good job. ;) As long as you can still wipe your own a.s then I won't consider you old. ;) >>>>>>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>>>>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Indeed. So you're saying that Chevy rules the category. ;) For mass production two seat American made sports cars? Yes. >>>>>> <big snip> >>>>> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > As long as you can still wipe your own a.s then I won't consider you > old. ;) Wow - too much information, but yes, I can still handle that chore. >>>>>>>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>>>>>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > For mass production two seat American made sports cars? Yes. Cool. We are in agreement and the Universe is again in harmony. >>>>>>> <big snip> >>>>>> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > Wow - too much information, but yes, I can still handle that chore. If I am lucky, I'll be dead before it happens to me. >>>>>>>>>> ...and not read to say I NEED a four door sedan. The real >>>>>>>>>> fact is I WANT a two door coupe. I don't think I'm the only [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Cool. We are in agreement and the Universe is again in harmony. We are like an old married couple. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we're getting a divorce. ;) >>>>>>>> <big snip> >>>>>>> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > We are like an old married couple. Just because we disagree doesn't > mean we're getting a divorce. ;) And neither signed a prenup... ;) >>>>><big snip> >>>> I'm much more of an independent than I was a year ago. The trouble [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Indeed. So you're saying that Chevy rules the category. ;) Sport sedan category? Chevy doesn't have a dog in that fight... > >> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED minority. > >> Four doors is the way to go. The reason the domestic have given up on 2-door coupes are: Monte Carlo, 90s T-Bird, 90s Grand Prix, the old 70's Dodge Magnum, etc. I argue they didn't get them right or keep them right. Patrick >>>> I would wager one American dollar that you are in a DECIDED minority. >>>> Four doors is the way to go. > > The reason the domestic have given up on 2-door coupes are: Monte > Carlo, 90s T-Bird, 90s Grand Prix, the old 70's Dodge Magnum, etc. We had a '94 T-Bird with the 4.6L V-8 and I found it to be a very good car. The only downside to it was the weight it carried. Ford had the right formula in that it was RWD, independent rear suspension, a V-8, nice interior, good option list etc. Plus, the Super Coupes were very well well done in they had supercharged V-6s (some had crank issues though) and cockpit adjustable suspensions. Even though the car was heavy I found it handled well, had decent acceleration and got 28 mpg on the highway. Why Ford ditched it for a two seater is beyond me. They should have kept it as a four seat coupe and had the Mustang and it share a basic chassis and other components. IMO, Ford could really use a car like it in their current lineup. > I argue they didn't get them right or keep them right. There is obviously a market for coupes as there are too many offered by other automakers. It's just another instance where the Big Three doesn't get it from a marketing aspect. >> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm assuming >> it is RWD? > > Because that's the demographic. Us aging Boomers don't like folding the > seats forward and climbing underneath the seatbelt to get into the back. If we are in that bad of shape then we should be calling for a cab. > It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. I don't put it past GM to make it FWD. They do have a few cars that have V-8s and FWD. > dwight > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>> >>> Patrick >>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > If we are in that bad of shape then we should be calling for a cab. It has nothing to do with "shape", and everything to do with convenience. And convenience that would have to be purposely denied (rather spartan philosophy, that). It's just far easier to open a door and plant your butt, than to climb into a back seat from the front. Of course, if you were really worried about "shape," you'd do without those power windows, power brakes, and a host of other innovations that have made life easier over the past decades. C'mon... dwight >>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > philosophy, that). It's just far easier to open a door and plant your butt, > than to climb into a back seat from the front. Of course it is easier but it doesn't make the car look better than if it were a coupe. I really don't care if a passenger in MY car has to make a small effort to get in the back seat. If they don't like then they can drive their own car. IMO, coupes look better than four doors on some cars. > Of course, if you were really worried about "shape," you'd do without those > power windows, power brakes, and a host of other innovations that have made > life easier over the past decades. What does power accessories have to do with whether two doors look better than four doors? I want two doors for the styling and not just to inconvenience the rear seat passengers. If they don't like the rear seat access then they can call a cab. > C'mon... C'mon? Feel free to think you're too old for a coupe. I prefer to act as I feel and I don't feel so old that I need four doors on my next car. >>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > act as I feel and I don't feel so old that I need four doors on my > next car. Michael, it's just a matter of time... ;) >>>>>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm >>>>>> assuming it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Michael, it's just a matter of time... ;) Like I stated in my other post, let me have my next ten years in ignorant bliss. > > Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm assuming > > it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It'd be a damn shame to put all that power at the wrong wheels. Yes, it is RWD. Seems the entire Pontiac line will soon be entirely RWD. Patrick > > NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: > >> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > >> Patrick >>> Why are they hell bent on giving this car four doors? Also, I'm assuming >>> it is RWD? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yes, it is RWD. Seems the entire Pontiac line will soon be entirely > RWD. I never thought I would live long enough to see the day Pontiac went 100% RWD. There may be hope for GM after all. > eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 > when it arrives in dealerships early next year. Prices for the V-8- [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Patrick No real tranny? Slushpump only? Sounds like yet another boring GM sedan, albeit with a big engine.  SignatureCheers, Bob > NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: > > eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > GM will soon have a 400 HP V8 RWD sedan priced under $30K. > > And Ford has... nothing... > No real tranny? Slushpump only? Sounds like yet another boring GM sedan, > albeit with a big engine. Bob, I believe a 6-speed manual is coming. Patrick >> NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: >>> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I believe a 6-speed manual is coming. Why would they put a car like that in showrooms and not immediately offer a manual transmission? How difficult can it be to shove a low tech manual transmission in place of an automatic? Just another half-assed new vehicle launch by our clueless Big Three automakers. >>> NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: >>>> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > transmission in place of an automatic? Just another half-assed new > vehicle launch by our clueless Big Three automakers. It actually has more to do controlling emissions than anything else. >>>> NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: >>>>> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > It actually has more to do controlling emissions than anything else. I don't buy it. If Ford can put out a GT500 with 500 horsepower and a manual transmission, that passes emissions requirements, then GM can do the same with the G8. It is just laziness (or stupidity) from a marketing standpoint, IMO. >>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > do the same with the G8. It is just laziness (or stupidity) from a > marketing standpoint, IMO. I'd say it's conservatism from the bean counters' side. There are not financial fun times for makers. I think they're going to keep costs as low as possible, so they've eliminated any extra-cost production items, such as a manual transmission - at least for now. Before they know how the car's going to sell, why incur any extra costs up front? Maybe (hopefully) after sales are determined to be good, a manual transmission will be offered. >>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > up front? Maybe (hopefully) after sales are determined to be good, a > manual transmission will be offered. I go back to the Mustang again. Ford can make a Mustang with an automatic or a manual and sell it for well under $30k in GT trim and the low $20k range in the base model. It isn't a huge financial stretch to offer a manual. I would think that the one car Pontiac has that can truly be called a muscle/pony type car would be offered with a manual option. They offer manuals in the Solstice for under $20k. I just don't buy it being a bean counter issue. IMO, it is another marketing blunder by one of the Big Three. Unfortunately, it happens far too often. >>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > bean counter issue. IMO, it is another marketing blunder by one of the > Big Three. Unfortunately, it happens far too often. Especially since the manual transmission retails for over $1000 less than the automatic transmission in most models... >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Especially since the manual transmission retails for over $1000 less than > the automatic transmission in most models... ..... and weighs considerably less than an automatic. >>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > ..... and weighs considerably less than an automatic. Assuming the car was engineered from the ground up as an automatic, throwing a manual in has got to be an added cost. Michael, I'm surprised that as an engineer you're not seeing this. I think you guys underestimate the bean counters' influence. These guys are thinking of ways to shave cents off of costs, let alone dollars. I still think that somewhere along the line, GM said 'no' to a manual due to costs. But, of course, it's all conjecture. We'll see what the future holds... >>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > throwing a manual in has got to be an added cost. Michael, I'm > surprised that as an engineer you're not seeing this. I think it is an easy swap and requires less wiring, computer control etc. As long as the physical dimensions of the manual roughly match the automatic it should bolt right in. Besides Pontiac would just spec the manual to Tremec etc. and they will build it accordingly. Too many cars come with manuals and automatics for this to be a difficult and overwhelming task. > I think you guys underestimate the bean counters' influence. These guys > are thinking of ways to shave cents off of costs, let alone dollars. I > still think that somewhere along the line, GM said 'no' to a manual due > to costs. But, of course, it's all conjecture. We'll see what the > future holds... I think it is the marketing people dropping the ball here. They offer a performance sedan and then don't cater to the preferences of a substantial portion of the car's target market. It is just bad business choices, once again. >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard >>>>>>>>>> <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > substantial portion of the car's target market. It is just bad > business choices, once again. Well, I guess I will have to defer to you because you're the one who's got the education in that field. That being said, if you're right, then Houston, we have a problem. >>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard >>>>>>>>>>> <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > got the education in that field. That being said, if you're right, then > Houston, we have a problem. The pessimist in me says Pontiac will not launch this car the right way. They screwed up the marketing strategy for the GTO in a big way. IMO, that car should have done well. It had much of the substance I think it needed to be successful but they styled it too bland and used a chassis that was cobbled together from an aging Aussy design. I'm sure it cost a small fortune to convert the relatively small number of chassis' they used from right hand to left hand drive. The fact they are not offering a manual right from the start in the G8 tells me they haven't thought this car through enough. From what I have seen of its styling there isn't anything about it that makes me say "I have to get me one of those." It looks to be an average sports sedan in a sea of great sports sedans. Maybe the magazine testers can shed some light on whether it is something special. >>>>> NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: >>>>>> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > the same with the G8. It is just laziness (or stupidity) from a marketing > standpoint, IMO. I disagree Michael, I am not privy to the details, but you can' even buy a class 2,3 or 4 Truck (F-150~F-550) in California today, with a manual transmission, even though you can still get them in most other states. The reason Ford dealers DO NOT sell any of these new trucks with a manual transmission in California is totally related to California's stringent vehicle emissions standards. This has been true for at least the last 5 years. I do not intend to ever buy/own/drive an automatic transmission vehicle. This really pisses me off. Glad I don't live in California, but more and more states are adopting their idiotic standards... >>>>>> NoOptio...@aol.com wrote: >>>>>>> eneral Motors will price the new Pontiac G8 sedan starting at $27,595 [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > This really pisses me off. Glad I don't live in California, but more and > more states are adopting their idiotic standards... Trucks are a different animal and I can see where manual transmissions in them are almost unnecessary. Towing and hauling loads is better done with an automatic. That being said I can't think of any passenger vehicles or light trucks that offers a manual transmission option that doesn't make that option unavailable in any state. Mustangs with manuals are sold in California regularly, as are Corvettes, econoboxes etc. >>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > them are almost unnecessary. Towing and hauling loads is better done with > an automatic. Well if you can overlook the biggest issue, it is a SLUSHBOX. I CAN NOT stand driving automatic transmissions. I special ordered my 2005 F-450 XLT Lariat with a 6-speed manual, it is my daily driver. Like I said, I do not intend to ever buy/own/drive an slushbox vehicle. > That being said I can't think of any passenger vehicles or light trucks > that offers a manual transmission option that doesn't make that option > unavailable in any state. Mustangs with manuals are sold in California > regularly, as are Corvettes, econoboxes etc. I think both of us will live to see automatics only for all car models... >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > I think both of us will live to see automatics only for all car models... I hope they at least have paddle shifters on the steering wheel. >> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > tech manual transmission in place of an automatic? Just another > half-assed new vehicle launch by our clueless Big Three automakers. On the contrary. I'll bet marketing research indicates that the automatic would be the most popular by far. Simple economics take over from there. >>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > automatic would be the most popular by far. Simple economics take over > from there. I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an exciting G8 coupe with a manual transmission. What's exciting about another four door with a slushbox in a sea of them? There's plenty of them with V-8s already on the market. >>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? Exactly. > I'm not holding much > hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an exciting > G8 coupe with a manual transmission. What's exciting about another four > door with a slushbox in a sea of them? There's plenty of them with V-8s > already on the market. 400hp is always nice, no matter how it's shifted or how many doors it has. Even auomatic Corvettes can be fun. ;) >>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > 400hp is always nice, no matter how it's shifted or how many doors it > has. Even auomatic Corvettes can be fun. ;) Pontiac has already found out with the GTO that horsepower alone does not sell cars. I won't mention that Chevy learned this lesson with the Camaro. Not only do they need an excellent all around car but one that offers the options that the potential buyers want ......like manual transmissions and two doors. If they are going to offer a sporty car then they need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. >>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > transmissions and two doors. If they are going to offer a sporty car then > they need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Again, demographics. Let me throw this out, and see if anyone wants to look up actual figures: 80% of new Corvettes come with automatics. 80% of Mustang GTs have automatics. Perhaps, in their rush to get this car out, Pontiac has eschewed the manual transmission, for now, and gone after the bulk of the possible market. dwight www.tfrog.com >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > 80% of new Corvettes come with automatics. 80% of Mustang GTs have > automatics. Not a chance. Can you even get a slushbox in the Z06? I'm sure that the 2005~2007 Mustang GT's run more than 50% with manuals... > Perhaps, in their rush to get this car out, Pontiac has eschewed the > manual transmission, for now, and gone after the bulk of the possible > market. > > dwight > www.tfrog.com >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Perhaps, in their rush to get this car out, Pontiac has eschewed the manual > transmission, for now, and gone after the bulk of the possible market. I found the following website with a wealth of production information for the 2005 Mustang: http://www.mustangheaven.com/Production%20Numbers/s197Mustang.htm#mustang1 Manual transmissions account for 31% of all Mustang sales. The real interesting number is that manuals account for 56% of all V-8 sales. It looks to me that based on Mustang manual transmission sales it would be a smart marketing/sales move for Pontiac to offer a manual transmission sooner than later for the G8. Especially, considering it has a V-8. >>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > smart marketing/sales move for Pontiac to offer a manual transmission > sooner than later for the G8. Especially, considering it has a V-8. This is what happens when you pull something out of your butt and wave it around. I am happy to be incorrect, and am impressed. If 56% of GTs are stick, but only 31% of overall Mustangs, then there are a TON of sixes out there with automatics. I guess that figures. So, who are all these people driving stick? I'll always remember picking TFrog up at the local Ford dealer after service, and I had to go out on the back lot and get the car myself. The parking boy couldn't drive stick. As for the Corvette (if http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2007/6/30/Final-2007-Corvette-Productio n-Numbers is to be believed), a ballpark 60% are automatics, with the huge chunk of the manuals coming in the Z06 model. dwight >>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > If 56% of GTs are stick, but only 31% of overall Mustangs, then there are a > TON of sixes out there with automatics. I guess that figures. If I include the 8,000 or so GT500s in the calculations the percentage of manuals in V-8 Mustangs increases to over 61%. It makes sense that the less sporty models have more automatics. It also reinforces the notion that people buying high performance cars like manual transmissions when given a choice. > So, who are all these people driving stick? I'll always remember picking > TFrog up at the local Ford dealer after service, and I had to go out on the > back lot and get the car myself. The parking boy couldn't drive stick. With all the econoboxes running around with manuals I think more people can drive sticks than you think. I know that my son refused to buy a car with an automatic and most of his friends feel the same way. There is still a big demand for manual transmissions in the ricer crowd. > As for the Corvette (if > http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2007/6/30/Final-2007-Corvette-Productio n-Numbers > is to be believed), a ballpark 60% are automatics, with the huge chunk of > the manuals coming in the Z06 model. What I found interesting about the Vette data is that is mirrors the Mustang data in the overall split of automatic to manual cars sold. Especially, if you throw the production numbers of the GT500 in the count. >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard >>>>>>>>>> <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > There is still a big demand for manual transmissions in the ricer > crowd. That may be true, but the ricer crowd itself is only a small segment of the whole thing. I would guess that the auto/stick numbers for econoboxes tilt a lot farther towards the auto side. >> As for the Corvette (if >> http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2007/6/30/Final-2007-Corvette [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Especially, if you throw the production numbers of the GT500 in the > count. Seems that there's consistency in the marketplace. >>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard >>>>>>>>>>> <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > the whole thing. I would guess that the auto/stick numbers for > econoboxes tilt a lot farther towards the auto side. I would have thought the numbers for the V-8 Mustangs would have been further toward the automatic side too. No doubt they sell more automatic econoboxes but there must be enough manual sales to justify their production. >>> As for the Corvette (if >>> http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2007/6/30/Final-2007- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Seems that there's consistency in the marketplace. IMO, this consistency also applies to the G8. >>>>> On Oct 9, 6:03 am, Bob Willard <BobwB...@TrashThis.comcast.net> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > 400hp is always nice, no matter how it's shifted or how many doors it > has. Even auomatic Corvettes can be fun. ;) Well kinda, but NO. My stock 325 Horsepower 570 Torque Power Stroke Turbo Diesel 6-speed manual transmission is a blast to drive, but it being in a 4-door 10,000 pound crew cab 4X4 F-450 kinda eliminates the whole muscle/performance car angle... > I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding much > hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an exciting > G8 coupe with a manual transmission. What's exciting about another four > door with a slushbox in a sea of them? There's plenty of them with V-8s > already on the market. But how many offer a 400+HP 6-liter V8 for _under_ $30K? Guys, we need to appreciate these choices we have right now, because who knows what the offerings will be in a few years. And have we forgotten that less than 10 years ago, we would have been doing cartwheels for cars like the G8, Charger/Super Bee/Magnum/300. Patrick >> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding much >> hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an exciting [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > forgotten that less than 10 years ago, we would have been doing > cartwheels for cars like the G8, Charger/Super Bee/Magnum/300. One would think that Pontiac would have learned something from their stillborn GTO. It had 400 hp and still bombed. It even had two doors. Pontiac had better bring more to the table than a V-8 because the competition in the performance sedan segment is unbelievably stiff. >>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Pontiac had better bring more to the table than a V-8 because the > competition in the performance sedan segment is unbelievably stiff. I'd love to know the _real_ reasons why the GTO flopped with the buying public. However, IMO Patrick makes a great point. I might be in the market next year, and my limit will be around $30k (I think that's a 'magic number' for a lot of potential buyers). All of a sudden, the G8 is a viable option - especially if it offers more performance than a Charger R/T for a lower price. >>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I'd love to know the _real_ reasons why the GTO flopped with the buying > public. Because it was butt ugly, it looks like a Mazda or some such sh.t... ZERO visual appeal and about $10K over priced... >However, IMO Patrick makes a great point. I might be in the > market next year, and my limit will be around $30k (I think that's a > 'magic number' for a lot of potential buyers). All of a sudden, the G8 > is a viable option - especially if it offers more performance than a > Charger R/T for a lower price. Not if it is only offered with four doors and a slushbox. It will make he GTO look successful. > >>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding > >>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an > >>>> exciting G8 coupe with a manual transmission. What's exciting about > >>>> another four door with a slushbox in a sea of them? There's plenty > >>>> of them with V-8s already on the market. > >>> But how many offer a 400+HP 6-liter V8 for _under_ $30K? > >>> Guys, we need to appreciate these choices we have right now, because > >>> who knows what the offerings will be in a few years. And have we > >>> forgotten that less than 10 years ago, we would have been doing > >>> cartwheels for cars like the G8, Charger/Super Bee/Magnum/300. > >> One would think that Pontiac would have learned something from their > >> stillborn GTO. It had 400 hp and still bombed. It even had two > >> doors. > >> Pontiac had better bring more to the table than a V-8 because the > >> competition in the performance sedan segment is unbelievably stiff. > > I'd love to know the _real_ reasons why the GTO flopped with the buying > > public. > Because it was butt ugly, it looks like a Mazda or some such sh.t... > ZERO visual appeal and about $10K over priced... "Butt ugly", IMO, is being over critical. Now, I could agree with someone who thinks they're plain, or even bland. > >However, IMO Patrick makes a great point. I might be in the > > market next year, and my limit will be around $30k (I think that's a > > 'magic number' for a lot of potential buyers). All of a sudden, the G8 > > is a viable option - especially if it offers more performance than a > > Charger R/T for a lower price. > Not if it is only offered with four doors and a slushbox. It will make he > GTO look successful. I don't know about that. The Chrysler's LX sedans had controversial styling when they debuted, were only offered with a slush box and their sales where pretty good. Now if GM's slick-looking G8 has better dynamics and offers another 60 HP... Patrick >> >>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not >> >>>> holding much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Patrick All things considered, slushboxes aren't all that slushy these days. >>> >>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not >>> >>>> holding much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > All things considered, slushboxes aren't all that slushy these days. yeah that's what the sales guy tried to tell me about Fords new truck transmission a few years ago, I almost fell for I until I test drove one... Even in "tow-haul" mode It was still a slushbox. Compared to old slushboxes maybe, the new mustang automatic, is nice, but compared to the manual transmission they are still slushboxs. . >>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > is a viable option - especially if it offers more performance than a > Charger R/T for a lower price. Anything with RWD and a V-8 automatically (pun intended) gets my attention when looking for a new car. In today's market though horsepower is not the main reason most buyers pick a sedan. I think we here in this newsgroup seem to believe we represent the majority of buyers when this is not the case. We, collectively here, like horsepower and torque and put more weight on it when evaluating a vehicle. Most of the public doesn't and tend to look at other things like ergonomics, perceived material quality, manufacturer reputation, options etc. when choosing a car. Horsepower is a concern but as long as the car has a decent amount of pep (and most cars today do) it falls far down on their list of requirements. Personally, I think the GTO failed because of the bland styling. It might have been priced too high initially and was, therefore, competing with some very good sedans. The Big Three has to remember that when they price a sedan near $35k-$40k the competition gets incredibly stiff. When I can buy the new Mercedes C class for under $32k and the sport model C class for $37k the Big Three had better bring their "A" game to the showroom floor in the $35k and up sedan market. Just bringing horsepower won't win them very many sales. BTW, you can get a "C" class Mercedes with a six speed manual transmission. >>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > them very many sales. BTW, you can get a "C" class Mercedes with a six > speed manual transmission. That is because the Germans understand one basic idea that the big three constantly struggle with, no true performance car built for a true driving enthusiast would ever be built and sold with a slushbox only, period. >>>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > true driving enthusiast would ever be built and sold with a slushbox > only, period. The Big Three aren't really concerned with "true performance cars" (except for Chevy's Corvette). They're in business first and foremost to make money. >>>>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>>>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > (except for Chevy's Corvette). They're in business first and foremost > to make money. Not lately. Maybe they should be concerned with making true performance cars if they plan to market them as such. ;) >>>>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>>>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > (except for Chevy's Corvette). They're in business first and foremost > to make money. So are the Germans for Christ sake... >>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > attention when looking for a new car. In today's market though > horsepower is not the main reason most buyers pick a sedan. Most buyers have a ton of reasons why they'd pick whatever. And the same is most likely true for each of us. > I think we > here in this newsgroup seem to believe we represent the majority of > buyers when this is not the case. Bingo! > We, collectively here, like > horsepower and torque and put more weight on it when evaluating a > vehicle. To a degree. But some of us have other criteria to be concerned with - such as a wife, kids, economics, etc. > Most of the public doesn't and tend to look at other things > like ergonomics, perceived material quality, manufacturer reputation, > options etc. when choosing a car. I will have to disagree. I think people are _very_ concerned with ergonomics, safety, the "green" factor (it's in vogue), etc. > Horsepower is a concern but as long > as the car has a decent amount of pep (and most cars today do) it falls [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > might have been priced too high initially and was, therefore, competing > with some very good sedans. This makes the most sense to me... > The Big Three has to remember that when > they price a sedan near $35k-$40k the competition gets incredibly stiff. Right. It's a very tight market even above $30k. > When I can buy the new Mercedes C class for under $32k and the sport > model C class for $37k the Big Three had better bring their "A" game to > the showroom floor in the $35k and up sedan market. Just bringing > horsepower won't win them very many sales. BTW, you can get a "C" class > Mercedes with a six speed manual transmission. And this is a great example of the buying public not being fully aware of their options. Call it bad marketing on MB's (and others' part), but there are some very cool cars available that one might not have thought about selling around $33k or so. >>>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not holding >>>>>> much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't deliver an [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > To a degree. But some of us have other criteria to be concerned with - > such as a wife, kids, economics, etc. I think these buyers don't care much about sportiness. It is ergonomics, safety, economy, reliability etc. IMO, these buyers are what Toyota has locked up the past 10-15 years. >> Most of the public doesn't and tend to look at other things >> like ergonomics, perceived material quality, manufacturer reputation, >> options etc. when choosing a car. > > I will have to disagree. I think people are _very_ concerned with > ergonomics, safety, the "green" factor (it's in vogue), etc. Green is in as long as it is affordable and inexpensive to operate. >> Horsepower is a concern but as long >> as the car has a decent amount of pep (and most cars today do) it [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > there are some very cool cars available that one might not have thought > about selling around $33k or so. If I were buying a sedan today the Mercedes dealer would be my first stop. The new C class they debuted recently is one sweet looking vehicle. One thing that always impresses me with Mercedes was there leather seats. I think they are an indicator of just how much thought they put into every car they make. I have seen Mercedes with close to 200k miles and the leather on the driver's seat won't have a crease or crack to be found. At 100k the leather seats in a typical American made car is cracking and starting to fall apart. Plus, there is nothing like the sound a Mercedes makes when you close a door. It's like hearing the door of a bank vault shut. >>>>>>> I guess that kind of goes along with four doors? I'm not >>>>>>> holding much hope for this car if the "Excitement" people can't [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > nothing like the sound a Mercedes makes when you close a door. It's > like hearing the door of a bank vault shut. You've convinced me. When the auto show comes to town, I will be seriously looking at the MBs. |
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