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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / May 2004Starter keeps running & burns up!!!
I recently started resurrecting a '93 Ford F350 (5.8 liter) that has been sitting in my driveway for more than a year having been started only once or twice. Of course, the battery was dead and wouldn't take a charge. With a new battery in place I started the truck and headed for the inspection station. Enroute I hear a significant whirring/whinning noise. I'm thinking it's a dried out pulley or alternator bearing? About five miles down the road the truck dies, and will not restart. I smell an electrical smell. While my son is on the way with the jumper cables, and I'm thinking my alternator is gone, I discover that the starter motor is flaming hot. The jumper cables don't help, and I'm off to the parts store for a new starter. Once installed the truck starts right up and I head home. Same noise. Almost home the truck dies again. Won't jump. Starter flaming hot, and electrical connection points melted. Now I realize that it's the started that's making the noise because it's continuing to run. Duh? New starter relay switch and started installed - same thing! Starter keep running! Can anybody point me in the right direction? Bob I have a 91 bronco 5.8. When I would go to start my truck, once in a while the starter would keep running even after the motor was already running. It got to the point where I had to disconnect my battery, that was all I could do to stop it. Do you have the starter relay on the fender wall? I changed that little box and its been working fine ever since. My battery posts were getting fried and the starter was burning as well. Alls fine now. > I have a 91 bronco 5.8. When I would go to start my truck, once in a while the > starter would keep running even after the motor was already running. It got to > the point where I had to disconnect my battery, that was all I could do to > stop it. Do you have the starter relay on the fender wall? I changed that > little box and its been working fine ever since. My battery posts were getting > fried and the starter was burning as well. Alls fine now. Well... That's interesting. I'm glad to know that at least someone else has experienced this. Yes. I do have the fender mounted relay. I've replaced it and the ignition switch. Problem still there! Not sure where to turn? Or what to look at? Someone suggested to me that maybe I've purchased a bad relay. I'm going to replace that again. Bob > I have a 91 bronco 5.8. When I would go to start my truck, once in a while the > starter would keep running even after the motor was already running. It got to > the point where I had to disconnect my battery, that was all I could do to > stop it. Do you have the starter relay on the fender wall? I changed that > little box and its been working fine ever since. My battery posts were getting > fried and the starter was burning as well. Alls fine now. Now I've replaced the starter relay again, and the problem is still there. Plus.... I disconnected the battery, with the engine running, and the starter kept going! That's not possible is it? I disconnected both terminals of the battery and the starter kept running. How can that be? Is it possible that the pinion gear is sticking in the flywheel? I've pulled the starter and everything looks good. No dings. No bent teeth. Nothing! Plus it is retracted, and pulls out smoothly when I pull it? I am bewildered. Bob That's where the volt-ohm meter comes in. Right now, you don't even know if you're fighting an electrical problem or a mechanical problem, and you've been under the truck three times already, and to the auto parts store 4 times. You could eliminate one or the other with a $1 test light! > I am bewildered. > > Bob > That's where the volt-ohm meter comes in. Right now, you don't even know if > you're fighting an electrical problem or a mechanical problem, and you've > been under the truck three times already, and to the auto parts store 4 > times. You could eliminate one or the other with a $1 test light! LOL... Obviously you could not be more correct. I don't know why I have such an aversion to performing electrical testing. For some reason automotive circuritry just causes my mind to snap shut! :-) It will probably surprise you to know that I have several meters and at least one or two test lights. :-) I just don't use them 'cause I'm never really sure what the results are telling me? Bob The first step would be to buy a volt-ohm meter. About half or 2/3 of life's problems require one to solve. Once armed with that, you'll be able to tell when you have power applied to that third starter from that 2nd relay. If there's power going to the starter with the engine running, fix that problem. If not, that's pretty strange, but I guess I would look for mechanical interferences that could keep the starter "stuck" engaging the flywheel with the engine running. But that would be a real weird problem. Having one stick with the engine off is pretty common, more on GM than fords in my experience. It's not unusal on Fords for people to wire up a self-latching starter relay that starts forever. You have to be careful how that's wired up. But I assume you didn't change it the first time. > I recently started resurrecting a '93 Ford F350 (5.8 liter) that has been > sitting in my driveway for more than a year having been started only once or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bob > The first step would be to buy a volt-ohm meter. About half or 2/3 of life's > problems require one to solve. Once armed with that, you'll be able to tell > when you have power applied to that third starter from that 2nd relay. LOL... You've got me laughing. I have several volt-ohm meters. Just not sure what the results mean, or even where to stick the probes? > If there's power going to the starter with the engine running, fix that > problem. I've pulled the wire off the solinoid while the engine was running? Considering that there is a large cable running directly from the battery to the starter motor, and the engine block is "ground", isn't this the only way to "remove power" from the starter without disconnecting the battery (which I have also done)? > If not, that's pretty strange, but I guess I would look for > mechanical interferences that could keep the starter "stuck" engaging the > flywheel with the engine running. But that would be a real weird problem. I've considered this. My first attempt to confirm, or rule this out, involved holding my hand on the starter while allowing some heat to start building. The heat seems to start building first right at the starter gear box (as opposed to the actual starter motor itself). At this point I was convinced I'd discovered the problem. But, after removing the starter several times now I'm not sure? When I unbolt the starter is comes out cleanly, smoothly, and without any unusual noises or interference (like the pinion gear retracting). > It's not unusal on Fords for people to wire up a self-latching starter relay > that starts forever. You have to be careful how that's wired up. But I > assume you didn't change it the first time. Now this is an interesting topic. I've been concerned about this. My cables were badly corroded, and I did remove them in order to put new connectors on the battery ends. After completing that I realized that I'd paid little attention to how the wires were connected at the relay. However, at this point I've reconnected them in every way I can conceive of. On a vehicle of this age the wires, of course, want to lay in an obvious position, and that is how they are now connected. With every other arrangement I've dreamed up the engine won't start at all. This truck has the double ended connector at the relay. One is a large gage red wire that comes directly from the battery (now connected to the firewall side of the relay). The other is a smaller gage red wire that travels from the relay to the solenoid mounted on the starter motor (now connected to the front side of the relay). Three other wires are connected at the relay. One is the control wire that is connected to the small "Switch" terminal (with a press on friction type connector). In fact, this new Borg-Warner switch does not even have the second small terminal as some do. The other two wires both have large diameter connectors, and I know that they were both connected to the main terminals of the relay. One of them is obvious as it left significant impression on the rubber insulator of the large gage side of the double ended battery connector. It's the third wire that I'm concerned about. It's actually two white wires that go to a, factory installed, rubber insulated, large diameter, connector tip. When I connect this wire to the firewall side of the relay the engine will start. When it's connected to the front side of the relay the engine will not start, and the relay won't even click. But... My symptom is exactly as you describe "a self-latching starter relay that starts forever". Bob >> The first step would be to buy a volt-ohm meter. About half or 2/3 of >> life's problems require one to solve. Once armed with that, you'll be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > LOL... You've got me laughing. I have several volt-ohm meters. Just not > sure what the results mean, or even where to stick the probes? Bob, Obviously, you probably don't have experience in troubleshooting. Shotgunning parts will get pretty expensive. The starter relay on the fender is just a switch. When you apply 12V to the small "S" terminal, then the switch closes, and current flows through the two large terminals. When there is no voltage on the "S" terminal then the switch opens... unless the contacts are welded shut due to continuous operation. First, disconnect the battery "+" cable at the battery. Next, remove the two heavy cables from the starter relay. Using your ohmmeter, measure the resistance between the two large terminals. With everything off (which it has to be, with the battery disconnected!) you should read an open circuit (infinite resistance). Now, with the battery "-" (ground) still connected, connect a jumper between the battery "+" and the small "S" terminal on the relay. You should hear a load "Click" as the relay closes. The resistance between the two large terminals of the relay should now read less than 1 ohm. Remove the jumper at the "S" terminal and the relay should open back up (another click) and the resistance should now be back at "open circuit". If this test is not successful then you have a bad starter relay. Next, connect everything back up EXCEPT don't connect the heavy cable that goes from the relay to the starter. With the ignition off, measure the voltage between the large starter terminal on the relay (the one where you LEFT THE CABLE OFF!) and ground. You did remember to change your meter to "volts" didn't you? With ignition off, there should be 0 volts on that terminal. Turn on the ignition. There should still be 0 volts on that terminal. Turn the key to "start".. you should hear the relay "click". There should now be battery voltage on the large starter terminal. Release the ingnition switch, the relay should open up and that terminal should go back to 0 volts. If it doesn't, you need to trace down the problem. There are two possibilities: 1) the relay is sticking shut 2) the small "S" terminal has 12V on it when it shouldn't (that circuit comes DIRECTLY from the ignition switch). Try all this and report your findings back to the group.  SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 2 days 20:45 > Bob, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > with the battery disconnected!) you should read an open circuit (infinite > resistance). Check. Reads open circuit. > Now, with the battery "-" (ground) still connected, connect > a jumper between the battery "+" and the small "S" terminal on the relay. > You should hear a load "Click" as the relay closes. The resistance > between the two large terminals of the relay should now read less than 1 > ohm. Check. Resistance moved around a little. Settled at .1 > Remove the jumper at the "S" terminal and the relay should open back > up (another click) and the resistance should now be back at "open > circuit". Check. > If this test is not successful then you have a bad starter relay. > > Next, connect everything back up EXCEPT don't connect the heavy > cable that goes from the relay to the starter. Actually, with my cables there is a heavy cable going directly to the starter from the positive pole on the battery, and another heavy cable going to the large (firewall side) pole of the fender mounted relay. Then from the other large stud on the relay a much smaller wire (about 12 gage) runs down to the solenoid mounted on the starter. So... For this test I disconnected the heavy cable at the starter stud. > With the ignition > off, measure the voltage between the large starter terminal on the relay > (the one where you LEFT THE CABLE OFF!) and ground. You did remember to > change your meter to "volts" didn't you? I read about 12 volts from the large cable at the relay (obviously) which is still connected to the battery. I read 0 volts between ground and the other large post on the relay (where the smaller wire runs between the relay and the solenoid. I've assumed this to be a positive result. > With ignition off, there should be 0 volts on that terminal. Check > Turn on the ignition. There should still be 0 volts on that terminal. Check > Turn the key to "start".. you should hear the relay "click". There should > now be battery voltage on the large starter terminal. Check. 12 volts on the 12 gage wire running to the solenoid. > Release the ingnition switch, the relay should open up and that terminal > should go back to 0 volts. Check. > If it doesn't, you need to trace down the > problem. There are two possibilities: > 1) the relay is sticking shut > 2) the small "S" terminal has 12V on it when it shouldn't (that circuit > comes DIRECTLY from the ignition switch). In addition, I checked the volts at the control wire (with it removed from the "S" terminal. The only time it has any voltage is when the ignition is in the "start" position. I also put the transmission in neutral, and with the ignition in the "off" position, I jumped power from the battery to the "S" terminal. The starter engages and turns the engine. When the jump is removed the starter stops normally. ??? Bob My 5.8L Bronco did the same thing and I changed the same things. The problem is that I don't remember exactly what fixed it. You might consider the Ignition switch. Ford had some bad switches in that time frame. That is one of the things replaced. The switch is not where the key goes, it is something else. Sorry, this is not my field. Maybe this will trigger somebody else's recollection. : I recently started resurrecting a '93 Ford F350 (5.8 liter) that has been : sitting in my driveway for more than a year having been started only once or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] : : Bob > My 5.8L Bronco did the same thing and I changed the same things. The > problem is that I don't remember exactly what fixed it. LOL... I know the feeling. > You might consider the Ignition switch. Ford had some bad switches in > that time frame. That is one of the things replaced. The switch is not > where the key goes, it is something else. Sorry, this is not my field. > Maybe this will trigger somebody else's recollection. I've replaced the ignition switch with a brand new Borg-Warner switch without any change in the symptoms. Bob Hmmm... You have done some legwork here so far. The switch, the solenoid and the starter have all been replaced. You noted that you had also jumped + power from the battery to the S post on the solenoid and everything worked properly. To me it sounds like there is a problem in the wiring harness or the ignition switch. Given your self admitted level of experience with troubleshooting electrical systems, I might suggest the following temporary solution... Buy a pushbutton from Radio Shack or an auto parts store and run a wire from the battery + to the switch. Run another wire from the switch to the "S" terminal on the solenoid and leave the wiring harness disconnected from the S post for now. This basically does the same thing you did when you jumped the S terminal to the battery. If you want to get fancy, mount the switch inside the cab so you don't have to pop the hood to start the car. Here is what will happen, you turn your ignition switch to the run position (not start) and then press the new button you just installed to start the vehicle. Try this for a couple of weeks, if your problem goes away then the problem is somewhere between the ignition switch and the "S" terminal on the solenoid. If it is in the wiring harness, that can be difficult to locate. Most people will just keep the old pushbutton in place and live with it or some will cut the old wire out and replace it. The later requires some ability to trace wires from end to end and you may or may not be that comfortable doing that. I have done it both ways. On my old junkers I just put the button in there, on a nice car, I replace the wire. Good luck. Tim > > My 5.8L Bronco did the same thing and I changed the same things. The > > problem is that I don't remember exactly what fixed it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Bob I had a similar problem on my '86 F-150 with a 300 I-6, turned out there is a wiring block at the bottom of the steering column, and the wires from the ignition switch and that block, had gotten their insulation worn off, and the wires had corroded internally, so once i replaced the wires the problem was resolved... hope this helps mongo Good news its easy!!! Not a problem with the electrical circuitry! The alignment of hte starter motor needs to be adjusted.The bendix style gear that engages the starter is not being allowed to release from the ring gear. This holds the soloniod (the one down on the starter) (this is not like your fathers Ford, its got one down there too) inthe engaged mode and keeps the connection live. Till eventually the windings are melted and done. Solution: Shim the starter motor at the mounting point to the transmision. usually add shims behind the lower inboard bolt. Try 1 then 2 ect. If no luck try the outer lower bolt. When it is going in the right direction you'll notice the starter begins to quite up. It stors sounding like a Dodge starter. (love my Mopar stuff but they have the loudest gear reducers) Good Luck, >I recently started resurrecting a '93 Ford F350 (5.8 liter) that has been >sitting in my driveway for more than a year having been started only once or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Bob >Good news its easy!!! >Not a problem with the electrical circuitry! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >(love my Mopar stuff but they have the loudest gear reducers) >Good Luck, Spelling correction-"It stops sounding like a Dodge starter." >>I recently started resurrecting a '93 Ford F350 (5.8 liter) that has been >>sitting in my driveway for more than a year having been started only once or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >>Bob |
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