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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / March 2005Problem with my Ford F350 transmission pulling heavy load.
Hi all, I have a question regarding a problem I am having with my 1999 Ford F350. It is a 4x4 duallie with the powerstroke diesel. I bought this truck used and did not know it had some performance enhancements added to the engine and automatic transmission. Here is my problem: I occasionally tow heavy loads. Usually I don't have any problems; the truck is a beast and never breaks a sweat. However, twice now I have towed a heavy load (once was a 10k# tractor, and the other time a 9k# 5th wheel) and the transmission dumped a bunch of transmission fluid on the ground, presumably through the vent line. This has occured under specific conditions. In both cases, I was approaching a steep incline on gravel, and decided to put the truck in 4x4 mode to climb the grade. In both cases, the grade was about a 15-17% incline. I stop the truck, put in 4x4 mode, then start up the grade. THe first time it was in reverse (and 4 wheel low), the second time in first gear going forward. After about 30 seconds, I smell transmission fluid and look under to see a waterfall of fluid from the tranny. The first time, I took it in under the extended warranty and had the transmission replaced. However, now it has occured a second time with a 6 month old transmission, so I am obviously thinking it doesn't have to do with the transmission being bad. The transmission has a Banks Transcommand installed, and the engine has a Dyno Sources chip, which (according to the website) adds 75hp and 162 lb/ft of torque. It also modifies the shifting settings. I talked to a guy at Aamco, and he thought the dumping of fluid was due to too much hydraulic pressure in the transmission, and the pressure released through some sort of valve. This makes a bit of sense, since the transcommand increases hydraulic pressure, the increased torque, ~10k pound load, starting up a reasonably steep hill from a dead stop, etc. I am just not convinced, and I would expect the transmission to handle a load like that without dumping 3-5 quarts of fluid on the ground. The AAMCO guy said that no harm was done and to just replace the fluid. ??? (On a side note, I was amazed a transmission guy told me my transmission was fine after dumping all that fluid... easy money...) What do you folks think? Is this common or reasonable? Anything I can do to fix it? Should I ditch the chip? I would rather not, as I love the performance enhancements... Do you think the transcommand and the engine chip are conflicting / overboosting? My current plan is to add a transmission oil cooler, and some gauges for oil temp, pyrometer (exhaust temp), etc. I am looking for more adgvice to make the truck more bulletproof. Maybe I am just asking too much of it... pushing a 10k# trailer up a hill with a 8400 pound truck may be too much for the Ford transmission. Thanks for any help, Todd I don't know why the tranny fluid is squirting out, but here's one thing you should know- I believe you have the E40D transmission in your Ford. Those transmissions are known to develop problems when moving heavy loads in reverse, so try to avoid backing up hills with your trailer. Paul T. > I don't know why the tranny fluid is squirting out, but here's one thing you > should know- I believe you have the E40D transmission in your Ford. Those > transmissions are known to develop problems when moving heavy loads in > reverse, so try to avoid backing up hills with your trailer. No, it's the 4R100, which certainly is similar to the E4OD, but isn't the E4OD  SignaturePersonal email n7bsn@amsat.org (@callsign.net's a SPAM trap) > > I don't know why the tranny fluid is squirting out, but here's one thing you > > should know- I believe you have the E40D transmission in your Ford. Those [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No, it's the 4R100, which certainly is similar to the E4OD, but isn't > the E4OD Basically the same transmission, jut renamed after the 1997 Model Year. Differences are minimal (no more than between different versions of the E4OD). Ed >My current plan is to add a transmission oil cooler, and some gauges >for oil temp, pyrometer (exhaust temp), etc. I am looking for more >adgvice to make the truck more bulletproof. Good plan with the gauges and tranny cooler. >Maybe I am just asking too much of it... pushing a 10k# trailer up a >hill with a 8400 pound truck may be too much for the Ford >transmission. A great place for Ford questions is www.thedieselstop.com. Ford trannies have a tendency to overheat in reverse, but puking fluid is something else. Brian Elfert You may be overheating the fluid and it's boiling over. There is only a minimal of air pressure differential in the transmission, which the vent should handle. Some older 4X4 had the vent attached to a hose that was attached higher then the transmission to prevent water from entering. It could also be you are approaching an angle limit in which the fluid level gets near the vent.. I would say it may be a combination of overheated expanded fluid, and the angle that you are climbing. If you add a good volume oil cooler, and don't overfill the transmission, your problems should go away. Ron > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Todd >I occasionally tow heavy loads. Usually I don't have any problems; the >truck is a beast and never breaks a sweat. However, twice now I have >towed a heavy load (once was a 10k# tractor, and the other time a 9k# >5th wheel) and the transmission dumped a bunch of transmission fluid >on the ground, presumably through the vent line. I second the suggestion to take this question to www.thedieselstop.com The only time I have ever seen a tranny puke fluid was when it got real hot so that would be my guess. R.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) I agree with the general census here, the trans is getting to hot. A relatively large cooler with its own fan will help ALLOT! You need to track down the previous owner that had the hop-ups done and ask him if he ever had the same problem(make sure you tell him you don't expect anything from him if he did). Next, contact the manufacturer of the trans kit and ask them about the problem...they might have a fix for it. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Todd I'm in the process of looking at this same problem on my father-in-law's 90' 4WD-460 Although he wasn't pulling any load, he was going up a steep grade. This is the 2nd time it has happened in this truck, the last was 2 years ago, and now last week. He has the radiator cooler and the extra one forward of the radiator. I'm going to hook up a pressure gauge to read pressure on both sides of the cooler to check flow, Keep me updated and I'll do the same for you. SignatureStephen W. Hansen ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician ASE Undercar Specialist > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Todd Persoanlly, I'd rip out the aftermarket stuff and install a bigger oil cooler. I have an older Ford pickup with the E4OD (basically same design transmission as yours). I overheated it one time and it puked a great deal of fluid out through the front seal. My mechanics has seen it happen a couple of other times. I was lucky, I let it cool down and added fluid. It has been fine for another 40,000 miles. My mechainc has seen cases where the front seal blew out when this occurred. Ford deliberately limited the maximum output of the Powerstroke to prevent transmission issues. Uping the engine power is just asking for a transmission problem. And I am not sure why people think Banks know more about programming the transmission shift points than Ford...... Ed > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Todd > I am not sure why people think Banks know more about > programming the transmission shift points than Ford...... > > Ed I don't believe anyone thinks that. What some of us think is that Ford is willing to trade service life for softer shifts so people will be impressed by the SMOOOOOTH shifts. Those smooth shifts cause heat which isn't necessary to some of us. Lon >> I am not sure why people think Banks know more about >> programming the transmission shift points than Ford...... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lon Gotta agree, just as the manufacturers tell you to put 23 lbs of air in tires for a nice soft ride. My '99 Explores came with Firestone "Exploder" tires ... I took one look at Ford's recommendations for tire pressure and got out my pump and took the tires up to FIRESTONE's recommendation ... wore the tires out before switching to Michelin's (my personal choice.) I feel that Ford was responsible for a lot of the tire failures, maybe more so than Firestone. But, back to topic, I believe now, and always, if you need to buy a Banks system, you did not buy enough engine to begin with! YMMV SignatureCliff Our Web Page http://www.cj-and-m.com . . For you and me, today is all we have; tomorrow is a mirage that may never become a reality. Louis L'Amour (1908 - 1988) Thank you Cliff. I work at Firestone started just after the exploder incident. My first impression of the explorer in about 96 was what a zippy rig for scooting around the base, then when I took it out on a road I noticed how sensitive the steering was, it took me a while to stop going from the white line to the center line. Anyway, some of the insight that I got from the Firestone side was: Ford has lobbyist in congress, firestone doesn't All of the roll-overs were said to have happened in hot states. Low tire pressure, excessive heat gets generated in the tire. After the settlement, ford redesigned the suspension on the explorers, Even though there "is nothing wrong with them" At the time Firestone was going through the legal stuff, Goodyear was recalling a larger amount of tires than Firestone, and was happy that the press was off of them! The new Expeditions came our with load range "D" tires on them, even though the rig needed a "E" range. Ford also once again suggested a low tire pressure. Firestone had another limited recall on them to put the correct tires on them and remove the inflation suggestion tag. Now even though this was Fords doing, firestone once again looked bad. I won't say that Firestone didn't have defective tires, or even a problem, but as many tires as I change a month, I see very fey of the Firestone/ Bridgestone line with problems. Take care Steve > Gotta agree, just as the manufacturers tell you to put 23 lbs of air in > tires for a nice soft ride. My '99 Explores came with Firestone [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But, back to topic, I believe now, and always, if you need to buy a Banks > system, you did not buy enough engine to begin with! YMMV > Thank you Cliff. > I work at Firestone started just after the exploder incident. My first [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > After the settlement, ford redesigned the suspension on the explorers, > Even though there "is nothing wrong with them" They didn't redesign the suspension until they completely redesigned the whole vehicles for the 2001 Model year. > At the time Firestone was going through the legal stuff, Goodyear was > recalling a larger amount of tires than Firestone, and was happy that the > press was off of them! But not the Goodyear tires installed on Explorers > The new Expeditions came our with load range "D" tires on them, even > though the rig needed a "E" range. Expeditions never came with Firestone tires or LT tires. I owned a 1997 and it came with Goodyears (they all did). My 2003 came with Continentals. For the 1997 Expedition tire pressures were 30 front, 35 year. For the 2003 35 front and rear. Never had a problem with the Goodyears except they picked up every nail on the road. As far as I can determine, no recent Expedition (i.e., the large SUV) was delivered from Ford with LT tires (and therefore no Load Range D or E tires). They were all delivered from Ford with P series tires. Ford's pressure recommendations were only for P series tires. If you switch to LT tires, you have to increase the pressures to prevent heat buildup (LT tires have heavier, thicker carcasses that build-up heat faster than P series tires). If you switch to LT tires, a load range ""D" tire should be more than sufficient. A properly inflated LT255/70-16/D tire is rated to carry a maximum load of 2680 lb.. This is far higher than necessary for an Expedition - even a fully loaded one. > Ford also once again suggested a low tire > pressure. Firestone had another limited recall on them to put the correct > tires on them and remove the inflation suggestion tag. Now even though this > was Fords doing, firestone once again looked bad. What recall - for Expeditions? I can find no such recall for Expeditions. And Ford never installed LT tires on an Expedition. Ford has never revised the recommended tire pressures for an Expedition. > I won't say that Firestone didn't have defective tires, or even a > problem, but as many tires as I change a month, I see very fey of the > Firestone/ Bridgestone line with problems. I really like the Bridgestone tires on my Vue. However, in 33 years of car ownership these are the first good tires I have gotten that had any association with Firestone. I have suffered through crappy Firestone / Bridgestone tires repeatedly - 1975 Datsun 280Z - Originally came with Bridgestones that wore out in less than 20k miles. I made the mistake of installing Firestone Radial 500's, and paid the price when the tread separated on one; 1978 Ford Fairmont delivered with Firestone 721 Tires, they wore out in less than 20k miles; 1981 Audi Coupe delivered with some really crappy European Firestones, one had the sidewall blow out, took weeks to get a replacement; 1983 Mazda 626, I replaced the OE tires with Bridgestones that rode like they were made of steel, and wore like they were made of butter; 1992 F150 with Firestones that were so bad, I removed them after 10,000 miles (they are still in use as implement tires on a set of row bedders); 1999 Ranger delivered with the infamous Firestone tires - three of four split in the center of the tread in less than a year - fortunately Ford recalled them and we got some decent tires for free. Despite the fact that I like the OE Bridgestones on my Vue, it is very unlikely that I will buy Bridgestones when they need replacement. 33 years of negative experiences make me wary of any thing associated with Firestone. A friend said it best when he was negotiating for a new Chevy. He told the salesman, I'll buy the truck as long as you get those G%^ D#$% Firestone tires off it. Ed My very limited experience with Bridgestones was that the OE tires on my Mazda were superb. The same model tires purched from Bridgestone for replacements were crap. Ergo. The OEM tires and the replacement tires from Bridgestone are not the same. Piss on Bridgestone. Incidentally you could tell by the odor of the tires that the OEM tires had better rubber. TS > > Thank you Cliff. > > I work at Firestone started just after the exploder incident. My first [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > Ed > My very limited experience with Bridgestones was that the OE tires on my > Mazda were superb. The same model tires purched from Bridgestone for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tell by the odor of the tires that the OEM tires had better rubber. > TS Maybe it was the piss you were smelling and not the rubber. I put Bridgestones on my Lincoln TC and they were the worst tires I have ever bought. Ed That is what I am talking about. As far as my experience goes the only good Bridgestone tires I got were on the car when I bought it, i.e. installed in Japan. TS > > My very limited experience with Bridgestones was that the OE tires on my > > Mazda were superb. The same model tires purched from Bridgestone for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > bought. > Ed >That is what I am talking about. As far as my experience goes the only good >Bridgestone tires I got were on the car when I bought it, i.e. installed in >Japan. Back in '85 I had a nissen sentra with bridgestone tires. Those where the first tires I ever had other than retreads that didn't last a year. > My very limited experience with Bridgestones was that the OE tires on my > Mazda were superb. The same model tires purched from Bridgestone for > replacements were crap. Ergo. The OEM tires and the replacement tires from > Bridgestone are not the same. Piss on Bridgestone. Incidentally you could > tell by the odor of the tires that the OEM tires had better rubber. I never thought of sniffing tires to determine quality.... I wonder if your OE Bridgestones were built in Japan and the replacements built in the US (at a Firestone plant)? One of my former co-workers went to work at the Kelley-Springfield plant in Fayetteville, NC. The has told me that the plant makes tires for all sort of other manufacturers (not just KS and Goodyear). It would be interesting to compare the tire numbers to see where the various tires were made. My Father has a strong bias against Goodyear tires, but routinely buys private label tires that are made by Kelley-Springfield (which is Goodyear owned) and Dunlop tires, which is also a Goodyear subsidiary. Ed My apologies, I meant the Excursion. Expedition, explorer, excursion.. I get confused.... Steve >> Thank you Cliff. >> I work at Firestone started just after the exploder incident. My first [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Ed > >> I am not sure why people think Banks know more about > >> programming the transmission shift points than Ford...... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that Ford was responsible for a lot of the tire failures, maybe more so than > Firestone. Firestones recommendation? Firestone clearly says to follow the vehicle manufacturer's recommendation. Ford never said to put 23 lb of pressure in Explorer tires. The recommendation was 26 lb, which a Firestone exectutive admitted before congress should have been more than sufficient for the loads imposed on the tire my a properly loaded Explorer. Firestone did publicize a recommendation for a higher pressure after their tires began to fail in large numbers(30 psi I believe), but this was an attempt to mask sub-standard tires. Testimony before Congress by Ford made it clear that the lower pressure was recommended for safety reasons, not for ride comfort. Ford was trying to reduce the responsiveness of the truck to rapid steering inputs to prevent people getting the truck sideways, and rolling them over. For a couple of years, Goodyear tires were installed on about 50% of the Explorers (my 1996 had Goodyears). The same pressure recommendaitions were in place for the Goodyear tires and there was not an unusual failure rate for the Goodyear tires. You should read http://www.tiresafety.com/service/serv_nav1b.htm#recip (this is Firestones website). I now own a Saturn Vue. During the NHTSA rollover test of Vues, the rear suspension collasped. Apparently this was becasue the rear tire rolled so far that the wheel actually contacted the pavement and dug in, creating a shock load on the lower locating link. GM did two things to address this problem. They redesigned the lower link and upped the recommended tire pressure from 30 to 35. My Vue had 30,000 miles on the tires when the "fixes" were administered. The new higher tire pressures make the car drive like crap. The ride is still OK, but now it is a very neverous vehicle requiring constant attention to the steeering. If it had driven like this when I test drove the vehicle, I would never have bought it. Higher tire pressures are not always better. Hoepfully I'll get used to the higher pressure. It will be interesting to see the effects on tire wear. I religiously maintained the tires at 30 psi for the first 30,000 miles and they were wearing perfectly flat. An extra 5 psi might not be too bad, I'll just have to see. Ed > > I am not sure why people think Banks know more about > > programming the transmission shift points than Ford...... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > impressed by the SMOOOOOTH shifts. Those smooth shifts cause heat which > isn't necessary to some of us. Exactly the point. Ford set the shifts for a "soft" shift, not for keeping heat buildup down. I have a friend that owns a trany shop, he has a contract with a local tow company. When he started putting the E4OD's in the Ford based trucks, he stopped rebuilding them. He said he has noted no such issue with the 4R100 however. I went ahead and did mine anyway, which did lower the trany temp when towing. So low I had to go back and make certain they didn't take the trany temp gage probe out. Signature-------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv http://www.freeautoadvice.com/board/ubbhtml/Forum8/HTML/003289.html http://tinyurl.com/52ndg > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Todd |
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