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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / May 2005

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diesel fuel

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STP - 08 May 2005 02:23 GMT
I have a 2000 excursion with a 7.3 power diesel engine.  Can I use dyed, or
red diesel fuel in it without ruining the engine?
Thanks,
Steve
asdf@global.net - 08 May 2005 02:42 GMT
> I have a 2000 excursion with a 7.3 power diesel engine.  Can I use dyed, or
> red diesel fuel in it without ruining the engine?
> Thanks,
> Steve

YES! However the State doesn't like you avoiding road taxes. If you get
dipped be prepared to write a rather big check.
Peter Arnold - 08 May 2005 11:43 GMT
>I have a 2000 excursion with a 7.3 power diesel engine.  Can I use dyed, or
>red diesel fuel in it without ruining the engine?
>Thanks,
>Steve

Absolutely.

Be warned, If you are caught by tax fellows (Very Rare out side of
farm country) the fine is draconian.

More important.  If Ford finds this fuel in your system, they will
void the warrantee.  BTDT, almost.

I lost the blower on my truck at 70,000 miles.  The first thing to
dealer did was pull fuel filter and check, he told me that had I
failed the check I would have eaten the entire cost.

Be advised.

--

Peter & Anne-Marie Arnold
Windsor, CT

NCT #13390, The Masonic Family Camping Club

31' Prowler 5th Wheel
1995 Ford F-250 PSD

We've Gone from tents to Class "A" Motorhomes, hoping to retire with a
bus conversion!
STP - 08 May 2005 17:09 GMT
Thanks guys,
The Ford dealer told me that the high sulphur content in dyed fuel would
ruin the injectors.  I thought that was bogus information, since all
tractors now have to meet EPA requirements.  It's nice to have confirmation
of this though.
sp

>>I have a 2000 excursion with a 7.3 power diesel engine.  Can I use dyed,
>>or
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> We've Gone from tents to Class "A" Motorhomes, hoping to retire with a
> bus conversion!
Reece Talley - 08 May 2005 19:43 GMT
Hmm, considering all of the vehicles used on farms and ranches, I just can't
imagine a dealer trying to void a warranty based on the use of farm fuel. If
a vehicle is used off highway for example,  it would not be required to use
fuel with the road tax applied. If such a vehicle then developed trouble, I
just can't imagine the dealer getting away with the voided warranty crap.
That being said, one should  do one's share to maintain the roads by using
taxed fuel.  What you save is not really worth the diminution of your good
character is it? Please understand, I'm not implying that you are using
untaxed fuel on the road. For all I know, your question is merely
theoretical. But for those who might be tempted to try it, my question still
remains for consideration.

Signature

R. J. Talley

Rowbotth - 08 May 2005 20:05 GMT
I think I agree with this fellow.

Farmer get to burn dyed diesel in their vehicles, and they get full
warranty if things go awry.  It sounds to me like the dealer is trying
to weasel out of providing warranty by playing "Moral Mother" and
sucking up to the tax collector.

Of course, you'd possibly play Hell taking the welching SOB to court, as
you'd have to admit being in violation of some minor statute, but if the
cost of the repairs are much less than the price of the fine, it would
be nice to have someone get a decision one way or another as to whether
warranty should still be valid whether the truck had fully taxed diesel
or not..

H.

> Hmm, considering all of the vehicles used on farms and ranches, I just can't
> imagine a dealer trying to void a warranty based on the use of farm fuel. If
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> theoretical. But for those who might be tempted to try it, my question still
> remains for consideration.
Peter Arnold - 08 May 2005 22:25 GMT
>I think I agree with this fellow.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Of course, you'd possibly play Hell taking the welching SOB to court, as
>you'd have to admit being in violation of some minor statute,

Not a "Minor Statute!  Fine is $10,000 !  FOMOCO will not be part of
tax fraud.
I'm sure is the truck was never used on road (?) they would be forced
to cover costs.  How rare would that be?

Pete

but if the
>cost of the repairs are much less than the price of the fine, it would
>be nice to have someone get a decision one way or another as to whether
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> theoretical. But for those who might be tempted to try it, my question still
>> remains for consideration.

--

Pete Arnold

"I dont give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way."

-Mark Twain-
Rowbotth - 09 May 2005 02:34 GMT
$10,000.00? That is one Hell of a fine for a few cents per litre in
missing tax revenue...

It seems high - like an order of magnitude too high - to me.  (Up North,
we don't beat up on our farmers like this...)

HR.

> >I think I agree with this fellow.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> -Mark Twain-
Hairy - 09 May 2005 04:19 GMT
> $10,000.00? That is one Hell of a fine for a few cents per litre in
> missing tax revenue...
>
> It seems high - like an order of magnitude too high - to me.  (Up North,
> we don't beat up on our farmers like this...)

It's not the farmers they go after, usually. OTR truck drivers get their
names in the paper every once in a while for this.
H
STP - 10 May 2005 19:30 GMT
Yesterday, I just talked to a couple of state fuel inspectors who were
testing gas stations as to the accuracy of pump fuel delivery.  I ran this
situation by them, and they said that there are two types of red, or dyed
fuel.  One is "high sulphur", and the other is "low sulphur" fuel.  The low
sulphur is identical to standard over the road fuel with the exception of
the dye.  He suggested I just order the low sulphur fuel from a distributor
for farm use, which I'll probably do, risking the warranty question.  One
interesting note was the fuel inspectors are spot checking the exit ramps in
California with a "sniffer" that detects dyed diesel, and when it alarms the
inspectors check you out.

>> $10,000.00? That is one Hell of a fine for a few cents per litre in
>> missing tax revenue...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> names in the paper every once in a while for this.
> H
Rowbotth - 11 May 2005 01:06 GMT
Years ago, I read a biography of Cummins - the Diesel Engine
manufacturer.  He got his start before the 1929 depression making
pleasure boats for the paper rich.  He used big diesel engines for power
mills for these things.

When the depression came along, his market died off and he started
looking around for another way to make a few pennies.  He took what he
knew about diesel engines in boats and applied it to diesel engines in
trucks, but he found that the big, slow moving engines that he used in
boats just would not work in trucks - way too much fuel used to move the
engine and no payload.

So in order to get the size down, he had to get the compression up.  But
the problem was that when he tried to get the compression up, he found
that the sulphur in the diesel gummed up his injectors.  He had to fight
with the fuel refiners to get them to get the sulphur out of the diesel
fuel, so that he could make a practical diesel engine for a truck.

Now you are saying that someone is telling you about a high sulphur
diesel fuel, and I'd never heard of this.  Maybe for home heating?  (But
then what about acid rain???  Which is just sulphur in the atmosphere -
and which happens to make pretty good fertilizer, BTW.)  And I've
certainly learned of very good reasons why I would believe it has gone
the way of the wooden piston.

I'm starting to think that someone is pulling your leg on the high
sulphur content diesel fuel -  maybe?  Or if now, what would it be used
for?  Anyway, I'd bet that if you are putting a diesel in a truck you'd
want to stay the devil away from anything except the lowest diesel
content you can lay your hands on.

Interesting thread, though.

HR.
=============

> Yesterday, I just talked to a couple of state fuel inspectors who were
> testing gas stations as to the accuracy of pump fuel delivery.  I ran this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> California with a "sniffer" that detects dyed diesel, and when it alarms the
> inspectors check you out.
Bob Peterson - 11 May 2005 03:34 GMT
>Now you are saying that someone is telling you about a high sulphur
>diesel fuel, and I'd never heard of this.  Maybe for home heating?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>sulphur content diesel fuel -  maybe?  Or if now, what would it be used
>for?

 "High" is relative.  Certainly current diesel fuel contains
substantially less sulpher than it did 75 years ago.

 To answer your question, "higher" sulpher fuel is used mostly
off-road and in marine engines.  Take a look at this Chevron page,
titled "Diesel, Heating and Marine Fuel Specifications".

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/diesel/Diesel_Spec.shtm

Note near the bottom note the % sulfur for on road (0.05%) vs. off
road (0.50%) vs. marine (2.0%) use.  The table even characterizes the
off road (0.50%) fuel as "high sulfur."  Recent changes in
regulations, some of which take effect in 2007, require reductions in
sulfur content of all diesel fuels.

   Bob
Rowbotth - 12 May 2005 01:50 GMT
> >Now you are saying that someone is telling you about a high sulphur
> >diesel fuel, and I'd never heard of this.  Maybe for home heating?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>     Bob

Thanks for the explanation.

H.
Tyrone - 11 May 2005 01:39 GMT
> Yesterday, I just talked to a couple of state fuel inspectors who were
> testing gas stations as to the accuracy of pump fuel delivery.  I ran this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> California with a "sniffer" that detects dyed diesel, and when it alarms the
> inspectors check you out.

Oh yeah, a diesel sniffer.  This unit  works like a radar gun.  Now they
are combining the two into one unit.  The cops can tell if you are
speeding on dyed diesel at a range of 1/2 mile.  Damn, what is this
world coming to?  If you believe this, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that
I am willing to sell you quite cheaply.
351CJ - 11 May 2005 01:50 GMT
On- and off-road diesel emissions are regulated at the federal level through
engine emissions standards that apply to new engines and through regulations
on diesel fuel.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has regulated on-road diesel
emissions at the federal level through the Clean Air Act (CAA) since 1970.
It was only 13 years ago in 1990 that EPA amended the CAA to include
regulations for off-road diesel vehicles. The standards for on- and off-road
engines set maximum allowable levels of emissions for new engines and diesel
fuel.

Current off-road fuel standards allow up to 5,000 ppm sulfur content,
however, EPA estimates current fuel has sulfur levels of about 3,400 ppm on
average nationwide.

Under EPA's new proposal, a limit of 500 ppm sulfur content will take effect
in 2007 for all off-road equipment, the current standard for on-road
equipment. A second step - to limit fuel to 15 ppm in sulfur content - would
take effect in 2010, three years after the 15 ppm standard takes effect for
on-road equipment.

> Yesterday, I just talked to a couple of state fuel inspectors who were
> testing gas stations as to the accuracy of pump fuel delivery.  I ran this
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>> names in the paper every once in a while for this.
>> H
Steve Barker - 13 May 2005 23:15 GMT
The sulpher is actually a lubricant and is good.  BUT it's bad for emissions
and that's why they remove it for road use.

s

> Thanks guys,
> The Ford dealer told me that the high sulphur content in dyed fuel would
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>> We've Gone from tents to Class "A" Motorhomes, hoping to retire with a
>> bus conversion!
Steve Barker - 13 May 2005 23:13 GMT
It won't hurt the engine.  It may even be better for it.  BUT it will hurt
your bank account when you get caught.  It's illegal to run non taxed fuel
on the road.

steve

>I have a 2000 excursion with a 7.3 power diesel engine.  Can I use dyed, or
> red diesel fuel in it without ruining the engine?
> Thanks,
> Steve
 
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