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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / February 2006

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? Tail-Heavy Trailer Sway

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Nehmo - 22 Jan 2006 01:59 GMT
"Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
a trailer hitch on the tongue attached to the front of the frame of the
trailer. If the trailer is improperly-loaded into a tail-heavy
condition (in other words, the center of gravity is to the rear of the
center of the axles) arrangement, it will sway from side to side. But
why? Why would tail-heavy conditions cause such behavior? The weight on
the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
mechanism.
Signature

         (||) Nehmo (||)

William Boyd - 22 Jan 2006 02:28 GMT
> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.
My thoughts are that the CG is behind the tires, they become the
steering mechanism rather than the tung. The trailer axles do not have
caster / camber and tow in alignment to hold it steady. The increased
sway can be caused by wallowing of the tire, the more the wallow the
more the sway, and the more the sway the more the wallow.
One thing I do know, if you want to spread gravel just load it in the
back of the trailer and get it up to speed, but watch it, the sway will
be soon swaying the tow vehicle from bar ditch to bar ditch, do not try
this with any one around so the can see you. They might think it is a
stupid trick and it is.  ;-)

Signature

BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

pkurtz2 - 22 Jan 2006 02:53 GMT
> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.
Nehmo, the reason this happens is due to the wind being able to catch the
underside of the trailer creating lift. It also happens because it can lift
the back of the truck up off the springs, even if it is a slight amount, it
will cause this problem. And then because the trailer is attached to the
very rear of the truck, it causes the rear axle to act like a pendulum and
causes the front of the truck to sway side to side. If the driver is
experienced in pulling a trailer, he can stop the sway action. You just have
to hold the steering wheel very straight, and not side to side to try to
counter the sway. And yes, balancing the load on a trailer is extremely
important, you dont want there to be any lift on the hitching device. This
can cause an improperly hitched trailer to come loose, and possibly come
completely free of the vehicle. Always use tow chains, criss-crossed under
the hitch (so as to look like they are going to catch the tongue if it comes
undone), and with enough slack that you can take hard corners without
stretching or getting the chains tight.
Happy towing,
Pk
Jon Porter - 22 Jan 2006 03:14 GMT
> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.

If the trailer is grossly unbalanced forth to aft, it can cause sway.
Signature

Jon
JPinOH

Michelle - 22 Jan 2006 03:57 GMT
> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.

If the CG is behind the pivot point 9 (axles) the trailer will try to
switch ends. This is the swaying. Much like an conventional gear
airplane. Most of the weight is behind the main wheels. They have a
tendency to try to switch ends.

Michelle
ninebal310@aol.com - 22 Jan 2006 12:49 GMT
If the CG is behind the pivot point 9 (axles) the trailer will try to
switch ends. This is the swaying. Much like an conventional gear
airplane. Most of the weight is behind the main wheels. They have a
tendency to try to switch ends.

Michelle

HUH?

Are you talking about the fact a dart flies straight because its weight
is forward and the tail feathers cause a little drag to keep it
straight? And, If you throw a dart backwards, it will automatically
switch ends and the heavy end will lead the way?

Hank <~~~don't know anything about airplanes
Nehmo - 23 Jan 2006 01:15 GMT
For simplicity, let's assume one axle and a flat deck trailer. My
experience has been the sway is dependent on the relationship of the
Center of Mass (CM) to the axle, in other words, if the CM is in front
or behind the axle.

Hitch - CM - Axle = stable
Hitch - Axle - CM = unstable

Trailers are self-correcting in terms of steering, like a caster on a
piece of furniture. If the wheel "steers" to the left like this \ , the
back and the front of the wheel touching the ground get resistance from
the ground. But the resistance on the back has more leverage in
relationship to the pivot, so the force is translated into a clockwise
turning moment about the pivot. This turning moment corrects the
orientation of the caster until it is pointed parallel to the direction
for travel, like this |.

So front-heavy trailers correct themselves regarding steering like the
caster, but the corrections are small. In tail-heavy trailers, the
steering corrections are large and they may even yank at the tow
vehicle.

I still don't understand it; I'm just restating the problem.
Signature

         (||) Nehmo (||)

Bob V - 22 Jan 2006 14:07 GMT
: "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
: a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
: mechanism.

Because the majority of the weight is behind the center of gravity and it's
attempting to get to the front because it's smart enough to know that's
where it belongs  :-)
Michelle - 22 Jan 2006 15:03 GMT
> : "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> : a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> attempting to get to the front because it's smart enough to know that's
> where it belongs  :-)

thats what I was trying to say.....
Michelle
351CJ - 22 Jan 2006 22:26 GMT
>> : "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
>> : a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> thats what I was trying to say.....
> Michelle

Smart weight???  Where would one acquire such weight?  I am sure I would
prefer it to dumb weight.
Rich256 - 22 Jan 2006 17:15 GMT
> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.

Just having the weight behind the wheels in itself doesn't produce the sway.
It allows amplification.

Many things can get the sway started (wind, bumps in the road, passing
vehicles) and once going the weight unbalance makes it more difficult to
control.

The trailer is like a pendelum hanging out behind the tow vehicle.   The
closer the weight is to the vehicle the easier it is to control.  Try
holding a board with a weight on it out in the wind.  It's a lot easier to
control if the weight is close in.

The weight and length of the tow vehicle also comes into play.   When a tail
heavy pendelum starts to swing it will start controlling the tow vehicle.

The flex of the tires adds more amplificaton.

No matter what you do there is always possibility of sway.  The amount of
weight you put on the hitch is a compromise.
Only total solution is to put all the weight on the tow vehicle and elimiate
the trailer.
351CJ - 22 Jan 2006 22:28 GMT
>> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
>> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> elimiate
> the trailer.

By The Way,

Amplification, this was the only reasonable response to your question...
Rich256 - 22 Jan 2006 22:59 GMT
> >> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> >> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Amplification, this was the only reasonable response to your question...

Thinking about it a little more one could have a really long trailer that is
very heavily loaded in the rear and you could pull it at very high speeds,
with a short wheelbase vehicle, without any trouble.  But only as long as
there is no wind, no bumps or anything else to get it into a sway condition.
But god help you if it begins to swing!!

Nothing more frightening than having the trailer begin to do the steering.
William Boyd - 23 Jan 2006 00:39 GMT
>>>>"Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
>>>>a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Nothing more frightening than having the trailer begin to do the steering.

I think the only way to correct the swaying is to reload the trailer
properly.

Signature

Bill P.
just
 Dog
  &
 ME

At this time in life all that
remains is left overs, some can
be cherished as good others bad,
but the only definite is that they
are all that remains, main course is
over.

Rich256 - 23 Jan 2006 01:33 GMT
> >>>>"Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> >>>>a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> I think the only way to correct the swaying is to reload the trailer
> properly.

Not the only way but perhaps the most important.  Even tires can contibute.
Junior - 24 Jan 2006 02:21 GMT
>> >> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow
>> >> vehicle by
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> Nothing more frightening than having the trailer begin to do the
> steering.

And.... don't try putting the brakes on in an aggressive manner.
William Boyd - 24 Jan 2006 04:12 GMT
>>>>>"Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow
>>>>>vehicle by
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> And.... don't try putting the brakes on in an aggressive manner.

What do you mean reasonable response, I would stop her as soon as I
could, throw the anchor out and hope for two things, it hooks on
something big enough and the second thing is the chain does not break.

Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

TheSnoMan - 24 Jan 2006 22:23 GMT
>>>>>"Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow
>>>>>vehicle by
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> And.... don't try putting the brakes on in an aggressive manner.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO VEHICLE BRAKES AT ALL WHEN THIS HAPPENS, TRAILER
BRAKES ONLY TO PULL OUT OF IT.

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Joe - 25 Jan 2006 04:03 GMT
Yes!

> YOU DO NOT WANT TO VEHICLE BRAKES AT ALL WHEN THIS HAPPENS, TRAILER BRAKES
> ONLY TO PULL OUT OF IT.
Joe - 23 Jan 2006 06:26 GMT
I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I have
found no frank discussion of it by anybody who has broken it down into its
component forces. It's hard to explain it using ASCII here. But my opinion
is this:

First off, it's clear that trailers can amplify their swaying until you
crash. They don't do it all the time, but they can, and that's what
interests me. They have no power of their own to bring to the table. The
energy to do this comes from the tow vehicle. The trailer sways like a
pendulum, sort of (I admit the forces holding a trailer back are not exactly
like gravity in this analogy). A pendulum can be powered by a wide variety
of motions. One of those motions is moving the pendulum's pivot point side
to side. I think this is the motion we want.

The forces on the trailer come from its tires and the tow vehicle. I was not
interested in any other forces. "front loaded" trailers are trailers where
the center of gravity is in front of the tires. When the tires are pushing
the trailer sideways (during sway), the center of gravity is in front of
that force. Since the side force doesn't go exactly through the center of
gravity, the weight of the trailer pushes sideways on the tow vehicle.

The inertia of the swaying trailer pushes the tow vehicle from side to side.
The difference in loading is simply this. If the center of gravity is in
front of the wheels, it pushed the tow vehicle one way, and if it's behind
the wheels, it pushes the two vehicle the other way. One cancels the sway,
and the other amplifies it.

> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.
John S. - 23 Jan 2006 13:55 GMT
> I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
> engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I have
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> the wheels, it pushes the two vehicle the other way. One cancels the sway,
> and the other amplifies it.

I don't know if amplification is the correct term.  Poor loading will
increase the sensitivity of a tow vehicle and trailer to winds and side
drafts from big trucks, but I don't understand how the forces could
actually be amplified.  In my experience the side-to-side swaying is
amplified or increased by the driver trying to offset the swaying by
steering out of it.
TheSnoMan - 23 Jan 2006 14:09 GMT
>>I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
>>engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I have
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> amplified or increased by the driver trying to offset the swaying by
> steering out of it.

This is true and just about all trailer sway issue start with tow
vehicle stabilty issues. (tires and suspension not up to the extra load
on them)

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William Boyd - 23 Jan 2006 14:31 GMT
>>> I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
>>> engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I have
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> vehicle stabilty issues. (tires and suspension not up to the extra load
> on them)

I do not agree. I think trailer sway issues start with proper loading.
I do agree that tow vehicle stability issues can be attributed to tire
and suspension problems. But they will not be the primary cause of sway,
the distribution of the load will be. Even a trailer that is grossly
over loaded may not sway if the CG is correct. But this is where the tow
vehicle suspension and tire pressure will show up more readily.
And I am no mechanical engineer or whatever scientist, but a retired
transportation superintendent with a lot of miles behind me. ;-)

Signature

BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

TheSnoMan - 23 Jan 2006 14:43 GMT
>>>> I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
>>>> engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> And I am no mechanical engineer or whatever scientist, but a retired
> transportation superintendent with a lot of miles behind me. ;-)

 CG is a factor but if your TV is not up to the load, it will be
unstable. Your TV has to effectively anchor the front of the trailer
where you want it to be and if trailer force easily deflect the TV's
controll of this, you will have sway. Correct CG on a poor TV can still
be quite unstable while even some CG error can do well if the TV is
stout enough.

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Rich256 - 23 Jan 2006 15:50 GMT
> >>>> I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
> >>>> engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> be quite unstable while even some CG error can do well if the TV is
> stout enough.

I think you have it there.  The TV is the driving force that keeps the sway
going.    And the reason that a 5th wheel or trailers using a Hensley or
Pullrite hitch pretty much eliminate the problem.

Suppose you pulled a badly loaded but small trailer behind a semi tractor.
If the trailer deflected due to wind, the truck would not move and would
pull the trailer back into position.  But when pulled by a small vehicle,
the rear of  the TV would be pulled out of position.    As it tries to pull
the trailer back into position and straighten itself out it could put energy
into the system causing the trailer to swing even further in the opposite
direction.  The rear of the TV also swings even further setting up an
oscillation.

I talked to a couple that had a new 30 foot trailer and new tow vehicle and
were using a Hensley hitch.  The previous year they started off on vacation
with a similar set up except using a standard platform hitch.  They got
about 30 miles from home when the trailer began to sway and before they
could react it rolled.
TheSnoMan - 23 Jan 2006 16:11 GMT
>>>>>>I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm
>
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
> about 30 miles from home when the trailer began to sway and before they
> could react it rolled.

Bet is was a 1/2 ton P/U or SUV pulling it too.

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TheSnoMan - 23 Jan 2006 16:17 GMT
>>>>>>> I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm
>>
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
>
> Bet is was a 1/2 ton P/U or SUV pulling it too.

I also want to add if you are quick on your feet and apply trailer
brakes when this happens (not vehicle brakes because it can make it
worse) you can usually get it under control if you catch it in time.

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Rich256 - 23 Jan 2006 17:17 GMT
> >>>>>>> I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
> brakes when this happens (not vehicle brakes because it can make it
> worse) you can usually get it under control if you catch it in time.

Been there.  Did it.  Coming down a steep mountain road, going too fast,
encounted a strong cross wind out of a canyon.   Trailer brakes pulled it
right back into position.
John S. - 23 Jan 2006 16:35 GMT
Actually a Helsley or Pullrite will "reduce" the tendency for the towed
vehicle to sway the towing vehicle, but it will not eliminate it, their
websites notwithstanding.  They are a better solution that a standard
hitch because the pivot point is moved closer to the rear axle.  A
fifth wheel places the pivot point between the wheels, thus further
reducing but not eliminating the ability of the towed vehicle to alter
the direction of the towing vehicle.

> I think you have it there.  The TV is the driving force that keeps the sway
> going.    And the reason that a 5th wheel or trailers using a Hensley or
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> about 30 miles from home when the trailer began to sway and before they
> could react it rolled.
John S. - 23 Jan 2006 16:05 GMT
> >>I got really curious about this, and studied it for a long time (I'm an
> >>engineer). There was a good thread on this at woodall's RV forum. I have
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> vehicle stabilty issues. (tires and suspension not up to the extra load
> on them)

Yup...too big a trailer for the vehicle and an incorrest tow bar adds
up to the potential for big problems.   Add to that the tendency for
inexperienced drivers to go too fast for conditions, especially on the
downhill and you have a recipe for a serious accident.

A family member was towing a large trailer with a Suburban and got
caught in a truck sidedraft when going too fast downhill on the way to
Wyoming.  Rather than holding it steady he tried to compensate and
ended up flipping the trailer and spinning the truck round in traffic.
No injuries thanks to some fast thinking truckers.
Tom Ivar Helbekkmo - 25 Jan 2006 07:56 GMT
> The inertia of the swaying trailer pushes the tow vehicle from side to side.
> The difference in loading is simply this. If the center of gravity is in
> front of the wheels, it pushed the tow vehicle one way, and if it's behind
> the wheels, it pushes the two vehicle the other way. One cancels the sway,
> and the other amplifies it.

I think you're on to the right mechanism here.  However, I think that
while the twisting of the tow vehicle is part of it, the real problem
is the twisting of the trailer around its own wheels.

Picture the trailer as it's nearing one extreme of the swaying cycle.
It's being pulled back in toward center by the forces exerted on it by
the tow vehicle and the trailer's own tires.  This sideways force is
opposed by the inertia of the trailer's weight, which pulls outward.
The intertia is acting at the center of gravity (CG) of the trailer.
If the CG is behind the wheels, it will tend to twist the trailer, so
as to *increase* the correcting force of the wheels.  This will, when
the trailer starts to swing inbound, cause it to do so *faster* than
it otherwise would, and will cause it to overcorrect, swaying over to
the other side.  The twisting of the tow vehicle, which you describe,
will, of course, allow the trailer to twist more, making things worse.

The problem is well known in aerodynamics.  A control surface, like
the aileron on a wing, has its CG well behind the pivotal point.  At
high velocity, the aileron can start to flutter.  The deflection of
the aileron causes an opposite movement of the wing, and, as the wing
starts to spring back, the aileron gets thrown the other way by
inertia.  At sufficient speed, the oscillation is self-amplifying.  A
common protection is to add weights on arms connected to the control
surfaces and extending forward of the hinge points, thus moving the CG
forward far enough to be safe at higher speeds.

-tih
Signature

Don't ascribe to stupidity what can be adequately explained by ignorance.

Rich256 - 25 Jan 2006 15:59 GMT
> > The inertia of the swaying trailer pushes the tow vehicle from side to side.
> > The difference in loading is simply this. If the center of gravity is in
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> surfaces and extending forward of the hinge points, thus moving the CG
> forward far enough to be safe at higher speeds.

That happens.  Ever see a small trailer "wagging" all over the road when
being pulled by a big truck?

I still think the problem with real amplification comes when the tow vehicle
gets into the act as well.  Now we have the tail wagging the dog.   It can
add even more energy, to the point where it causes them to roll.

If it were only due to the trailer 5th wheels and those using Hensley
hitches would not be almost immune to the problem.

As I said I have had it happen to me. Going perhaps too fast down a steep
grade when a gust of wind out of a canyon hit us.   The trailer started to
take control of the steering.  A quick flip of the brake control manual
lever pulled it right out.
stevmon - 21 Feb 2006 08:36 GMT
> "Pull-behind" trailers are trailers that connect to the tow vehicle by
> a ball (or other attaching arrangement) on the back of tow vehicle and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the tongue would be negative, but I still can't understand the swaying
> mechanism.

Not to wake up an old thread but seems like some came close to the answer
but couldn't explain in terms that were easily enough grasped by someone
with out engineering/dynamics modeling experience.  Here is my attemt to
explain...

Take the TV out of the equation for now:

Let's go to an extreme and say that the center of gravity is located a
good distance behind the axle - maybe ten feet.  Also assume that the
trailer is being towed by a device on a straight rail and will not leave a
predetermined straight path.  One of Newton's Laws says an object in
motion will stay in that motion unless disturbed.  Under this ideal
situation the trailer would track perfectly behind the tow point regardles
of C.G. (center of gravity) and maintain a straight line.

Try to imagine looking down on this situation from above in an aircraft
following the direction of travel.  Now, imagine there is a gust of wind
(or any other disturbance) that hits the left side of the trailer and
pushes the trailer to the right.  Now if we release the hitch/ball at that
exact moment, common sense should tell you that the trailer will swing
around such that the rear of the trailer becomes the front.  This is NOT
stable.

Now let's look at a situation where the trailer is properly loaded with CG
in front of the axle.  In this case let's pull the pin on the
hitch/ball right after the gust.  Again, common sense should tell you that
the normally loaded trailer will maybe waver right and left a bit but the
front will stay in front - in the direction of travel.  This is STABLE.

In a nutshell, the CG point will TRY to align itself in the direction of
travel AHEAD of the wheels/axles/(any form of resistance).

When you bring in the TV, you introduce another whole set of variables
including harmonics and how quickly the trailer settles down.  But
fundamentally a forward CG on a trailer will be more stable than that of a
rearward CG.  A rearward CG will always result in the back of the trailer
hunting to become the front during ANY disturbance.  There are other
dynamics that can come into play like aerodynamic pressures that may be
able to overcome the inertia of the CG but not in a travel trailer unless
you have big fins... In fact the farther forward the CG the more stability
there is - but this has other undesirable effects like hitch weight etc...
Nehmo - 22 Feb 2006 10:30 GMT
For simplicity,
One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
beam with a hitch at one end and a wheel mounted somehow near the
center of the beam.
The tow hitch is stationary.
The trailer is on a short conveyer belt running under it to mimic road
travel.
We are looking down form above with the top of our head toward the
front of the trailer.

The trailer sways to the right.
We instantaneously remove the hitch pin.

If the CG of the trailer is behind the wheel, the wheel acts as a
pivot, and the trailer tries to rotate counter clockwise.

If the CG of the trailer is in front of the wheel, the wheel acts as a
pivot, and the trailer tries to rotate clockwise.

Counter-clockwise increases the sway, but clockwise opposes the sway.

Is that it?
I'm still thinking about it.

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          (||) Nehmo (||)

IYM - 22 Feb 2006 12:34 GMT
Sheesh this has been beaten to death - Real easy to imagine and try out. Go
to your grocery store and get a cart.  Stand on the front of the cart and
start riding it like a scooter pushing it backwards in a straight line and
tell me what happens....(yes, the front wheels under and to the front of
your feet do pivot, but that only helps to accelerate the fact that your
cart is attempting to put your a.s out in the front)

Scott

> For simplicity,
> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Is that it?
> I'm still thinking about it.
Rich256 - 22 Feb 2006 14:38 GMT
> For simplicity,
> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
> beam with a hitch at one end and a wheel mounted somehow near the
> center of the beam.
> The tow hitch is stationary.

One problem is that the tow hitch is not stationary.  When the trailer
sways the tow vehicle also sways.  The lighter the tow vehicle the
larger the sway.
Steve B - 22 Feb 2006 15:56 GMT
>> For simplicity,
>> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sways the tow vehicle also sways.  The lighter the tow vehicle the larger
> the sway.

But, you are ignoring all those ratings and claims by salesmen and
manufacturers who claim that incredibly light vehicles will tow incredibly
heavy loads.

What's up with that?

Steve ;-)
Rich256 - 22 Feb 2006 16:45 GMT
>>> For simplicity,
>>> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Steve ;-)

OK, I appoligize to them.  Hurt their feelings?

Also should have added if the tow vehicle didn't sway we would not be so
concerned about the trailer sway.
Chris Cowles - 22 Feb 2006 17:26 GMT
> Also should have added if the tow vehicle didn't sway we would not be so
> concerned about the trailer sway.

Except for the guy in the next lane.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

Rich256 - 22 Feb 2006 19:01 GMT
>> Also should have added if the tow vehicle didn't sway we would not be so
>> concerned about the trailer sway.
>
> Except for the guy in the next lane.

Normally the trailer will not show significant sway unless the tow
vehicle does.  I base that on the fact that trailers pulled with 5th
wheel, Hensley/Towrite hitches rarely have any noticeable sway problems.
Joe - 25 Feb 2006 04:09 GMT
>> Also should have added if the tow vehicle didn't sway we would not be so
>> concerned about the trailer sway.
>
> Except for the guy in the next lane.

No, I think he's right. For every trailering-related crash, you can always
say if you'd been pulling a half as big trailer with a twice as big tow
vehicle you wouldn't be crashing. That's the important thing.
Whitelightning - 25 Feb 2006 15:51 GMT
> No, I think he's right. For every trailering-related crash, you can always
> say if you'd been pulling a half as big trailer with a twice as big tow
> vehicle you wouldn't be crashing. That's the important thing.

How do those semi rigs manage it? Trailer and load around 60,000 pounds,
tractor weighs about 20,000.  Or mobile home movers, 40,000+ pounds of
mobile home
being pulled by 12,000 pound truck on a ball hitch.
Its being loaded correct, its having brakes on the trailer that work and are
balanced to
the tow rig, its not pretending your Mario Andretti when your towing, its
driving
with road conditions in mind, and knowing when to park the thing, like when
the wind starts
getting to strong.

Whitelightning
wolfpuppy - 25 Feb 2006 18:18 GMT
>> No, I think he's right. For every trailering-related crash, you can
>> always
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Whitelightning

I would say that semitractortrailers are towing their trailers differently
than one would tow, say, a boat.  They are attached above and ahead of the
rear axels, which is more like how a fifth wheel is pulled.  People who
modify their pickup truck to tow a fifth wheel are more or less duplicating
how a tractortrailer (semi) pulls a load.  I believe it is a lot different
when the pivot point (ball hitch location) is located behind the rear axel.
I am not a truck driver by trade, though, so I will defer to any who are.
Joe - 25 Feb 2006 04:07 GMT
>>> For simplicity,
>>> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Steve ;-)

Makes for some great pictures, though.
Nehmo - 23 Feb 2006 09:55 GMT
Rich256:
> One problem is that the tow hitch is not stationary.  When the trailer
> sways the tow vehicle also sways.  The lighter the tow vehicle the
> larger the sway.

I'm trying to isolate the aspects of the problem. But if you have a
front-heavy (CG ahead of the axle) trailer, you can slalom right and
left quite rapidly and the trailer will obediently follow. Once you
take a steady path, the trailer will fall in line without further
swaying.
Signature

          (||) Nehmo (||)

Rich256 - 23 Feb 2006 15:18 GMT
> Rich256:
>> One problem is that the tow hitch is not stationary.  When the trailer
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> take a steady path, the trailer will fall in line without further
> swaying.

For the problem of losing control you can't remove the tow vehicle from
the problem.  It is part of the system.

As the trailer salalom's right and left the tow vehicle follows.  That's
when it gets scary!!  The trailer begins to take over control of your
steering.

As I said if you are using a 5th wheel, Hensley, or Towrite hitch the
swivel point moves to the rear axle of the tow vehicle minimizing the
effect of the tow vehicle.
stevmon - 24 Feb 2006 07:36 GMT
> For simplicity,
> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Is that it?
> I'm still thinking about it.

You got that just right.  It is difficult to visualize but basically the
center of gravity will always try to get in front of the one wheel pivot
that you describe - I like that description - it's a little easier than
mine was I think...

So let's just try to take this a little farther!

If the C.G. (center of gravity) of the trailer is offset by a small
distance from the single wheel, the amount of force will be less than if
the C.G. is farther from that single wheel.  So if we take an out of
balance/rear C.G. situation and go from say 2 feet behind the exle to 4
feet behind the axle, things will happen much more rapidly as far as the
trailer geting out of control.  Likewise, if we have a C.G. ahead of the
axle at two feet it will stabilize less quickly than if the C.G. were four
feet ahead of the axle.  (This is really a description of why there is
tongue weight on any trailer.)

IMPORTANT NOTE:  The longer a trailer is, it will usually have what
engineers call a larger "radius of gyration."  Simply put, it is like
having a bigger flywheel that once it starts rotating is harder to stop.
If heavier weaight is distributed closer to the axles, even a larger
trailer will be easier to handle. That is why larger trailers on any TV
will want/need all of the steering
dampers and what not whereas a shorter trailer will not require those
neccessarily. By integrating the two vehicles a bit more, they can both
fight disturbances from straight and "normal" a little bit better.  It
begins to matter that the capacities of the TV are at this point. It also
starts to involve the attachment point (TT vs 5R.)

Note that aerodynamic forces will play a very large role for crosswinds
and attachment points.  This also includes the TV into the equation.  Note
that most RVs have the axle placement around 60-65% rearword (or more.)
That solves the C.G. problem but the aerodynamic and harmonic issues will
vary from combination to combination of vehicles.

Harmonics is difficult to explain and harder yet to analyze but my guess
is most folks here have had the situation where a vehicle combination
"just didn't tow right" at a certain speed but was fine at higher and/or
lower speeds.  That is the dynamic/harmonic of that particular combination.

Uff Da!  That's a lot.  I actually know it helped me to think a lot about
trailer dynamics although I haven't had any problems yet...
JerryD(upstateNY) - 25 Feb 2006 00:16 GMT
Is there less likely a chance of a vehicle on a tow bar swaying than a
vehicle on a tow dolly ?
I am looking into a much smaller vehicle to tow the next time I take the
motorhome out and will probably flat tow it rather than putting it on a
dolly.

Signature

JerryD(upstateNY)

Whitelightning - 25 Feb 2006 16:00 GMT
> Is there less likely a chance of a vehicle on a tow bar swaying than a
> vehicle on a tow dolly ?
> I am looking into a much smaller vehicle to tow the next time I take the
> motorhome out and will probably flat tow it rather than putting it on a
> dolly.

I've flat towed, and used dollies, and trailers.

Money no object I prefer trailer. But that's not an
option sometimes in RV parks.
I love dollies.  Especially for front wheel drive
which means 90% of what's out there.  No messing
with drive shafts or pulling half shafts if its an automatic
being towed.  I towed a caviler on one behind a truck
from Syracuse NY to south of Tampa Bay Fl, no sway,
no issues with the towing vehicles wheels  goofing up on sharp turns.
just like flat tow, cant back dolly.
not to mention no mileage shows for the tow on a dolly.
dolly does require a tag, and some maintenance once
in awhile.

Whitelightning
Joe - 25 Feb 2006 04:06 GMT
> For simplicity,
> One axle trailer. Let's pretend one wheel too. The trailer is just a
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Is that it?

That's what I think makes all the difference. *but* these thought
experiments never work on the actual dynamic problem. It's too complicated.
 
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