Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
un-repairable?
Searches left me with nothing tangible.
SnoMan - 23 May 2006 02:28 GMT
>Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
>nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
>un-repairable?
>
>Searches left me with nothing tangible.
As long as it is in the tread belt, there are no real problems except
maybe the size of the hole. I recently had a flat fixed that had been
slowing losing air (had to fill it about once a month) I did not use
vehcile daily and it would sit for weeks at a time on occaision so I
let it go. Recenty it started to leak faster so I went to have it
repaired and they found a nail near edge of tread that was long worn
down (I had made a trip to Colorado with it that way a few years ago
so I knew tire was sound otherwise) They told me that it could not be
patched and that I needed a new tire though it had 75% tread still so
I took it home and patched it myself and had it remoted and balanced
and I have had no problems with it as it does not leak a bit now and
it has made a 1000 mile trip since then too.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com
Whitelightning - 23 May 2006 02:43 GMT
> Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
> nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
> un-repairable?
Tread area only, no closer than 1/2 inch to edge of tread area.
Speed rated tires lose rating when repaired.
The only approved way to repair a tire is to dismount it, through
inspection,
and the use of a patch/plug combination. Its a patch with a plug applied
from inside.
The patch provides the air seal, and the plug seals the injury to keep
moisture and debris
out of the belt area. Steel belts have a habit of cutting plugs as they
flex and then the
tire goes flat.. No tire driven on flat should be repaired. any signs of
cracking in the side
wall area or blistering in the liner area rule the tire repair out.
Repairing damage closer to the edges is not a good idea as the steel belt
may be damaged.
Here's a good link from Continental Tires
www.conti-online.com/.../www/us/en/continental/
automobile/themes/contiacademy/drivers_ed/tire_repair_en.pdf
Dunlap says
http://www.dunloptire.com/care/damage.html
Everything you ever wanted to know about tires
http://www.rma.org/
https://www.rma.org/publications/tire_service_professionals/index.cfm?Publicatio
nID=11335
Whitelightning
SnoMan - 23 May 2006 13:08 GMT
>Tread area only, no closer than 1/2 inch to edge of tread area.
>Speed rated tires lose rating when repaired.
>The only approved way to repair a tire is to dismount it, through
>inspection,and the use of a patch/plug combination. Its a patch with a plug applied
>from inside. The patch provides the air seal, and the plug seals the injury to keep
>moisture and debris out of the belt area.
THis really depend on the type of hole as there is no hard set rule
here as this implies. A smal nail hole 1/4 inch from tread belt edge
will do less damage to tire than a 1/4" bolt in center of it. (I had
this happen once with a new tire on a import and I did plug it and run
it 40k miles with no problems) Also I have mixed views on plugs or
plig/patch combos because sometimes you can do more damage then the
punture did by reaming the hole out for a plug. Most nail holes do
fine with just a radial patch with plugs or plug patches being
reserved for bigger holes.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com
djdave - 23 May 2006 13:22 GMT
All tires are different. PA State Saftey Inspection Code states no
sidewall repair. Most tires are very clear as to what is tread and
what is sidewall. If in question, stay on the safe side and call it
unrepairable.
I deal in only 5 or 6 different style tires, all have wear bars. I
dont repair tread outside the wear bars by choice.
I hope this helped.
>Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
>nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
>un-repairable?
>
>Searches left me with nothing tangible.
C. E. White - 23 May 2006 14:41 GMT
> Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
> nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
> un-repairable?
>
> Searches left me with nothing tangible.
I looked at several of the tire manufacturer's web sites, and they all said
pretty much the same thing. The following is from
http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/AirLoss.html#3 :
"Is it safe to repair a flat tire?
"If a tire loses all or most of its air pressure, it must be removed from
the wheel for a complete internal inspection to be sure it's not damaged.
Tires that are run even short distances while flat are often damaged beyond
repair. Most punctures, nail holes, or cuts up to 1/4 inch -- confined to
the tread -- may be satisfactorily repaired by trained personnel using
industry-approved methods. Don't repair tires with tread punctures larger
than 1/4 inch, or any sidewall puncture. Also, never repair tires which are
worn below 1/16 inch tread depth. Your best bet is to make sure your spare
tire is always ready to do the job. Check it regularly for proper air
pressure and be sure that it is in good shape. If your car is equipped with
one of the several types of temporary spares, be sure to check the spare
tire's sidewall for the correct inflation pressure, speed, and mileage
limitations. See Goodyear retailer for expert tire repair."
The "tread area" is defined as the area between the inside edges of the
grooves on either side of the tire (i.e., the tread area does not include
the outer most tread block on the edge of the tire). See
https://www.rma.org/getfile.cfm?ID=645&type=publication for a picture
defining the tread area. The text associated with the picture follows:
"This graphic indicates that puncture repairs are limited to the tread area
as generally depicted in the graphic. DO NOT make repairs where the injury
damage extends into the shoulder/belt edge area OR where the injury extends
at an angle into the shoulder area. If there is any question that the injury
extends into the shoulder/belt edge area, then the tire must be scrapped."
You might also want to look at:
http://www.tiresafety.com/maint/maint_repair.asp
http://www.michelinman.com/care/buy_when.html
http://www.rma.org/tire_safety/tire_maintenance_and_safety/tire_safety_brochure/
tire_care_and_safety.cfm#replacement
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/themes/co
ntiacademy/drivers_ed/tire_repair_en.pdf
- HAL9000 - 23 May 2006 22:28 GMT
Ok yea, thank you, and others, very much for all the info. Searching
didn't seem to get me into the technical stuff.
That chart must be the reason why the shop claimed un-repairable.
It's between the edge of the tread and the area in the chart marked as
"puncture repair area". I'm guessing about 3/4 inch from the tread
edge and 1/2 inch from the puncture repair area - and between ribs.
It's a small puncture. Although from the Michelin web page link, the
damage location is "is only in the tread section of your tire" - which
it is.
I'm planning on sealing the nail in with some silicone. If it doesn't
stop the air leak then I'll try another shop for repair. I'm thinking
the problems begin when the nail comes out.
The mechanic also indicated that it was the side flexing (I assumed he
met: during corners) that prevents a patch from lasting. If that's
the case then moving the tire to the back should take care of that.
SnoMan - 23 May 2006 23:25 GMT
>I'm planning on sealing the nail in with some silicone. If it doesn't
>stop the air leak then I'll try another shop for repair. I'm thinking
>the problems begin when the nail comes out.
Silicone is a bad choice here as it will not bond to rubber well. If
tire is off rim, get a radila patch and install it inside tire and be
done with it.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com
wonka_1 - 24 May 2006 01:42 GMT
I dont think moving it to the back will take care of your problem, I
personally would not keep that tire if it has a nail within an inch of the
side wall. I have had about 14 years exp.in the tire business and I have
seen alot of people that just didnt want to believe that there tire was
bad, dont risk your life over a tire, just replace it or make it your
spare if you have a full size spare. Be safe. :]
Steve Barker - 24 May 2006 04:23 GMT
Over the past 25 years i've not had a single problem repairing them RIGHT ON
the sidewall. I believe it's a fabrication of lies by the tire
manufacturers to sell more tires. At worst, a patch and a tube will allow
the tire to live out it's tread.
steve
> Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
> nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
> un-repairable?
>
> Searches left me with nothing tangible.
Dave and Trudy - 26 May 2006 18:19 GMT
> Over the past 25 years i've not had a single problem repairing them RIGHT
> ON the sidewall. I believe it's a fabrication of lies by the tire
> manufacturers to sell more tires. At worst, a patch and a tube will allow
> the tire to live out it's tread.
>
> steve
Its a liability issue and nothing more. Given the increased flexibility of
radial tire sidewalls (as opposed to bias ply sidewalls) a plug has a much
greater chance of not holding seal. This can result in tire failure due to
several causes. Catastrophic air loss, excessive heat due to low inflation
condition, etc... The standards set by the tire manufacturers are guidelines
for retailers to protect the mfgr first and the tire shop second.
Dave D
- HAL9000 - 27 May 2006 05:18 GMT
Yea, I was thinking it was a liability issue as well. Then I started
to think that it could be that the shop doesn't won't to fix the flat
multiple times - just say no, LOL.
I pulled the nail out today. Nothing happened. Air did not start
coming out. I had planned on sealing the nail in with silicone today
but it was too short and stubby to do that. Apparently it just barely
got through to the inner tube seal. It was a slow air leak.
So I let 99.9% of the air out and then stuffed some super glue through
the hole with a toothpick. I almost got the toothpick stuck :-( Then
I let all the air out, let it sit for while, and then filled the hole
with super glue. Then let it set for awhile to soak in. After 30
minutes I "kicked it" with a super glue accelerator (a required step).
Inflated to 35 lbs and drove around town doing errands all afternoon.
Pressure is still 35 lbs.
Any guesses as to how long it will take before it will start leaking
air ? ?
I know the power of super glue, having built many RC model airplanes
with it, but with a tire - I have no idea if this is going to work.
My guess is that if I got the inner tube rubber to touch each other
when I kicked it - the problem is solved. The super glue around the
outer tread area should break off / wear off. The inner tube rubber
should give (flex) and the super glue joint (puncture point) should be
stronger than the inner tube rubber. If the inner tube glue joint
doesn't hold, then start over with a more standard method :-)
>Its a liability issue and nothing more. Given the increased flexibility of
>radial tire sidewalls (as opposed to bias ply sidewalls) a plug has a much
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>for retailers to protect the mfgr first and the tire shop second.
>Dave D
David M - 27 May 2006 06:40 GMT
> So I let 99.9% of the air out and then stuffed some super glue through
> the hole with a toothpick. I almost got the toothpick stuck :-( Then
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> stronger than the inner tube rubber. If the inner tube glue joint
> doesn't hold, then start over with a more standard method :-)
By the time you did all of that, you could have fixed it correctly
with a tire repair, not some mucked up super glue repair.

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David M (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
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djdave - 27 May 2006 16:07 GMT
OK, now I know this is a joke.
Jeff Strickland - 28 May 2006 05:57 GMT
If you gotta ask, ask your local tire store. If the tire can be fixed,
they'll fix it. I've seen more places try to fix a bad tire than refuse to
fix a good one.
> Does anyone have some guidance, or rule of thumb, about how close a
> nail puncture has to be to the sidewall to be considered
> un-repairable?
>
> Searches left me with nothing tangible.