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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / July 200689 F150 Ignition timing Problem
Here is a recap of a previous closed message: Ford F150 won't start May 25 2006 Truck was driving fine when muffler exploded and truck did not start again Engine Crank There is fuel There is spark There is a new ignition module New distributor cap New Rotor I did check the firing order and if the wires were in the right order 1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required with wire number one at the right location The only thing suggested was the timing gear must be damaged. That's where I was a month ago I just took the cover of the timing gear and they appear perfectly fine with a TDC both marks on the gears whre they should be. So now I am doubting at all that the gear are the problems. There is however a timing problem. If I rotate my distributor one notch at a time , I end up being able to fire start the engine. But unless I rotate slowly by hand the distributor as the egine runs it dies. I keep doing the same thing other and other and it start. Eentually my distributor had been rotated 360 degrees. I was not able to figure out why the timing keeps changing. > Here is a recap of a previous closed message: Ford F150 won't start May > 25 2006 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > distributor had been rotated 360 degrees. I was not able to figure out > why the timing keeps changing. Are you positive you have the wires in the right order (you did check which direction the rotor is turning, right?) Also, I believe the correct firing order is 153624. That might explain a lot.  SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 2 days 13:27 >> 1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required with wire number one at the right >> location [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Also, I believe the correct firing order is 153624. That might explain > a lot. Yep, firing order is 1,5,3,6,2,4 Spdloader Because the poster states he moves the distributor a "notch" which I take to mean a gear tooth, how about a busted shear pin holding the distributor gear to the shaft? other possibilities that come to mind, extremely worn gear on the dist, or cam gear missing teeth. Whitelightning > Because the poster states he moves the distributor a "notch" > which I take to mean a gear tooth, how about a busted shear pin holding the > distributor gear to the shaft? other possibilities that come to mind, > extremely worn gear on the dist, or cam gear missing teeth. > > Whitelightning Or plug wires routed incorrectly. SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 2 days 14:55 I will recheck the firing order based on the replies given. However the truck was running fine for more than year before the muffler exploding incident. The distributor gear show slight signs of wear but nothing indicating a problem. I am left with the camshaft gear , the part visible from the distributor shaft looks OK but I can only see part of it. Thanks for the hints. > > Because the poster states he moves the distributor a "notch" > > which I take to mean a gear tooth, how about a busted shear pin holding the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > T/S 53 > sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 2 days 14:55 Have you checked to see if the distributor gear has rotated on the shaft? I have had this happen to me with a 4cyl 2.3l turbo engine. The car backfired and then would not run. Unbeknownst to me, the timing had shifted by many degrees which was just baffling. The distributor gear was held attached to the shaft with a small steel pin which sheared. the gear was tight enough that it stayed on the shaft and turned the distributor but it was in the wrong position. I was 60 kms from the nearest town on the Alaska highway and it took an entire day to get a tow truck. The guys at the shop managed to get it running again and thought the distributor had shifted somehow. I managed to get it 1200 kms back home to Vancouver where it backfired again and stopped running. I took it to the Ford dealership (I had an purchased an extended used car warranty) and it took them two days to figure out that the pin on the distributor gear had sheared. Both ends of the pin were still in the gear and the middle was still in the shaft but the pinn was in three pieces. Don't know if your distributor has the same type of gear pin but it might be worth a look. Stephen N. > I will recheck the firing order based on the replies given. However the > truck was running fine for more than year before the muffler exploding [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>T/S 53 >>sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 2 days 14:55 Hmmm, coming into the thread late, I didn't notice that whitelightning had just suggested check what I related in my post below. Well then, I second it! Stephen N. ---> should'a paid attention... > Have you checked to see if the distributor gear has rotated on the > shaft? I have had this happen to me with a 4cyl 2.3l turbo engine. The [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>> >>> Or plug wires routed incorrectly. > Hmmm, coming into the thread late, I didn't notice that whitelightning > had just suggested check what I related in my post below. Well then, I > second it! > > Stephen N. ---> should'a paid attention... OP: "1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required" Firing order of 4.9 I6: 153624 I think this is more likely the problem rather than slipping gears. SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 3 days 11:47 > OP: "1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required" > Firing order of 4.9 I6: 153624 > > I think this is more likely the problem rather than slipping gears. I thought he said it was running until it backfired. The clue is: "If I rotate my distributor one notch at a time , I end up being able to fire start the engine. But unless I rotate slowly by hand the distributor as the egine runs it dies. I keep doing the same thing other and other and it start. Eentually my distributor had been rotated 360 degrees. I was not able to figure out why the timing keeps changing." This sounds like the gear is slowly slipping on the shaft. He doesn't say he re-arranged the leads so it likely isn't improper firing order. He may have a different firing order on his engine or he is counting wrong. Stephen N. ">> OP: "1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required" >> Firing order of 4.9 I6: 153624 >> > This sounds like the gear is slowly slipping on the shaft. He doesn't say > he re-arranged the leads so it likely isn't improper firing order. He may > have a different firing order on his engine or he is counting wrong. Actually, you're right, he IS counting wrong, he IS starting with 1 correctly, but counting BACKWARDS on the distributor. Good job, Stephen! Spdloader > ">> OP: "1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required" >>> Firing order of 4.9 I6: 153624 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Spdloader Hmmmm.... Oh yeah!! Good job, Stephen! SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 3 days 20:33 > ">> OP: "1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required" > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Actually, you're right, he IS counting wrong, he IS starting with 1 > correctly, but counting BACKWARDS on the distributor. Yeah, it looked like that. I had a quick peek online but I couldn't find that firing order but I did notice that the sequence was backwards to the norm. Oddly, Ford counts the cylinders differently than GM and that has made for some interesting moments as well. I still think the OP should check that gear before he starts tearing anything apart or letting the Ford guys at it @$112/hour. Stephen N. > Yeah, it looked like that. I had a quick peek online but I couldn't > find that firing order but I did notice that the sequence was backwards > to the norm. Oddly, Ford counts the cylinders differently than GM and > that has made for some interesting moments as well. It's an inline 6 cylinder, Ford numbered them the same as every other manufacturer that had an inline 6. > I still think the OP should check that gear before he starts tearing > anything apart or letting the Ford guys at it @$112/hour. > > Stephen N. >>Yeah, it looked like that. I had a quick peek online but I couldn't >>find that firing order but I did notice that the sequence was backwards [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's an inline 6 cylinder, Ford numbered them the same as every > other manufacturer that had an inline 6. I was actually thinking of the way ford numbers it's V8s, that is, 1234 on one side and 5678 on the other rather than 1357 and 2468 the way GM and I think most others do. But I think you are right on the inline 6s, as far as I know no one numbered inline engines from back to front. Stephen N. Keep in mind that I was driving 60 mph when the muffler explodes and the engines shuts off. Towed back home the engine would crank but not explosion. That is when I replaced ignition related parts one at a time. running out of options I rotated the distributor one gear at a time. I eventually got the engine started but it was not sustainable. I had to also rotate the distributor head by hand to keep up with the timing. I eventually run out of range and the engine dies. I change the distributor position by one gear counterclock wise , rotate the head of distributor clockwise full motion and start the engine. it starts rough and as i rotate the head of distributor counterclock wise I get a good timing. Short live I have to keep rotating the head couterclowise to keep up. After chekcking neswgroup and mechanics with good advices, I was told to replace my timing gear. "A known problem on timing issues". Well my timing gears are in very good shape. There is not indication that there is slippage there. So I am back to square one. It could be the camshaft gear rotating the distributor that is faulty but I can not see the entire perimeter. what I see through the distributor shaft is fine. I will keep looking. Eventually I ll figure it out then will post the solution. thanks to all. > > OP: "1 4 2 6 3 5 just as required" > > Firing order of 4.9 I6: 153624 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Stephen N. When I reported the firing order I displayed it backwards reading the wires counterclowise starting with 1 counterclock wise it read 1 4 2 6 3 5 starting with 1 clockwise it reads 1 5 3 6 2 4. My mistake for now reporting it right, but the wiring is as it should be. > Keep in mind that I was driving 60 mph when the muffler explodes and > the engines shuts off. Towed back home the engine would crank but not [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > Stephen N. As you describe it, there's something that's slipping for sure. I actually had a car once where the sheer pin didn't sheer, but the slot it fit into got larger and allowed the crank pulley to turn. It was very hard to find. I say that, not because I think that's your problem, but to say that you have a problem that's not easily visible. If I read your below quoted post right, you didnt' change the timing gear. It's possible that a sheer pin is sheared on one of the pulleys, causing the continual slippage you describe. The same problem could exist in the distributor. You're just going to have to find what's turning on its shaft. The fact that the thing backfired when it quit working is an important clue. I doubt that the backfire cause the engine problem, but rather the opposite. The sudden change in timing caused the backfire. You're obviously looking for a timing problem, and it's almost surely a sheer pin somewhere. CJB > Keep in mind that I was driving 60 mph when the muffler explodes and > the engines shuts off. Towed back home the engine would crank but not [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >> Stephen N. Alain, the problem you describe is perfectly in line with what I have said below. The teeth of the timing gear on the shaft may be fine, the shaft is fine but the two are NOT ATTACHED. The gear is slipping on the shaft. The reason you have to rotate the distributor is because the position of the gear on the shaft is changing. You might be able to check this by trying to rotate the distributor with the engine off. It has been described here a couple of times that the gear is likely locked to the shaft with a key or shear pin. If the key or pin is broken only friction is keeping it from rotating on the distributor shaft. Check that before you go any further. Stpehen N. > Keep in mind that I was driving 60 mph when the muffler explodes and > the engines shuts off. Towed back home the engine would crank but not [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> >>Stephen N. pull the distrtributer it sound like the gear is lose or stripped >Here is a recap of a previous closed message: Ford F150 won't start May >25 2006 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >distributor had been rotated 360 degrees. I was not able to figure out >why the timing keeps changing. I believe Stephen and CarKB are right on the money on that one. I was looking at a diagram form mitchell on demand for the TFI-IV Distributor and the exploded view does not show a pin holding the Drive Gear to the shat assembly of the distributor. But It is there. As I look at it closely it looks align with the hole and very secure but by forcing I can rotate the drive gear on the shaft by hand. Given the speed of the engine rotation when powered I truly believe that the gear would start to slipped around the shaft slowly but surely. It will take me few days to verify this because half of the truck is apart by now. That is the price to pay for knowlege. You guys are awsome. I truly respect your time and patience and insights. > pull the distrtributer it sound like the gear is lose or stripped > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Message posted via CarKB.com > http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/ford-truck/200607/1 So here is the verdict. The spring pin holding the distributor gear to the distributor shaft was worned out, allowing the gear to rotate freely around the distrbutor shaft. I replaced it with a new one at a cost of $.24 cents. The timing was immediately stabalized and now I can proceed to repair the exhaust system with a hefty price tag. My advice to all is to at least once a year inspect your distributor gear and pin for signs of fatigue. (For those models using a similar set up). It will save you a lot of money and worries. Thanks to all. > I believe Stephen and CarKB are right on the money on that one. I was > looking at a diagram form mitchell on demand for the TFI-IV Distributor [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Message posted via CarKB.com > > http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/ford-truck/200607/1 |
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